That was a great post, Obitus. 

This part in particular is relevant to that other thread about his treatment of Scarlet Women.  I have typed up something similar, in the reply I have been working on as my time and patience permits.

Currently I am almost completed reading "The Unknown God - Wilfred T Smith and the Thelemites".
I always knew that Crowley was a selfish, egotistical tour de force and this only solidifies my original thoughts.
Martin P Starr, refers to countless letters in which his demands cash, continual undermining of Smith, Achad and others is unheralded as they try and maintain the only Official Thelemic body in existence almost. He knows no bounds when being blunt and confrontational as well as suiting himself, regardless of what he preaches. To me he was also a contradictory man from what I have read.
Whilst this may make him "Human, all to Human", you  can not take away from his legacy, countless achievements and serving as a prophet of the new Aeon.

PS I think your comment regarding Jesus or Mohammed is a key one. They have had the privilege of having many centuries of glossing over the menial everyday interactions. Not that it would have been recorded in so much detail like Crowley thankfully has. What it does is allow us inside his mind and clearly see give thoughts and outlook. In other words its real. We can identify with him on a much deeper level.
It makes him accessible and vulnerable, just like you or I. JC & Mohammed get set on the mantlepiece and then are marvelled at for the godliness when in reality they where Human, all to human.

Paul, I recently read through "The Unknown God" also. Very sad actually. It is to their credit that those Californians didn't just toss in the towel! One need look no farther to find AC's failings on display than his treatment of WTS. And I agree Obitus, while many religions would have their adherents emulate their prophets' behaviours in daily life, Thelema is perhaps unique in saying "please, don't!" - and therein lies its strength as it urges every Thelemite to consider their own Star and its unique path...

I also heartily recommend reading 'The Unknown God' by everyone who haven't done so. When I was still pretty new to Thelema and Crowley in general, this book helped me a lot to shake off my fresh fanboyish-attitude of Crowley and gave me much wholesome picture of the man behind The Beast 🙂

Crowley's personal flaws make him a better Prophet

Yeah, being a heroin addict - who was completely unable to cure himself - makes him a better prophet....

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

When I first read the opening of this post it immediately filled my mind...yet I have hesitated to post. Don't know why and still wonder what purpose it may serve, if any?
It took me back to that most wonderful awakening and magical period in life known as puberty. My dreams, both day and night, were filled with witches dancing around me in a circle beneath the full moon. A fluid blur of naked flesh and blue and moonlight building to a frenzied sexual climax. Oh Heaven! where art thou? Anyway...
It was in search of those witches which first led me to the occult bookshop on the hill. Once inside I found myself before the works of A.C. and the world for me immediately turned. As I think back now I can see that it is was all the things which were considered vile, vulgar and obscene behavioral traits by the world...that I seen so clearly in myself and were presented so openly by Aleister that initiated the first changes. His behavior displayed as a teaching model. A first small step of the many life experiences, that we all go through, that bring us each and every one to our own unique point of view and perspective. I'm not sure where I'm going with this if any where? Perhaps just a random thought in a sharing moment? It did get me looking through some old journals and a favorite little bit which I wrote many years ago which I will throw in just for the hell of it...how much more of a mess can I make than this anyway? lmfao!

"In the soft white light of the waning moon
beneath the blue black vault of the starry heavens
I looked upon you as you lay naked before me.
The milky whiteness of your outstretched legs,
the dark crimson red of your delicately painted toes.
Your eyes burn with the brightness of lust and love.
As you spread your legs the doors of the temple swing wide...
and they come.
One after the other, all that desire
hungry with want, erect and hard
thrusting and pounding they take their pleasure.
As their numbers increase so does my desire for you.
As each one released and collapsed
I want you more.
Unto me, unto me, you fuck unto me."

.

Love is the law, love under will.

I would like to (once again) express my own personal perspective on Perdurabo the initiate, and Crowley the man. The vast bulk of initiatory writings that he produced was prior to 1915, when he was relatively young and free of addiction. He, himself, said, "Having performed the task laid upon me by the secret chiefs, namely the publication of The Equinox (I:1-10), I therefore announce my word." (His general statment - My "translated" words).

Crowley the man looms larger after 1921. His addiction was essentially in full sway after that.

It has been said that the Work uses a person for its own ends - and often then proceeds to fling him or her aside once the required actions have been accomplished. Many "Great Men" (and ladies, too) have accomplished wonders, only to be flung into disgrace and poverty.

Let's give him credit for doing his job in the early days, and then unfortunately falling under the spell of opioids. I have treated a number of patients with drug problems. I presently have a family member who is afflicted with medically-induced drug addiction. I can (and will) attest to the fact that such an affliction completely warps the personality and twists the mind of such unfortunates.

Let's give him credit for the early days, and let's put his later days into the proper perspective.

93

But there is still much to be learned from his perceived failings.

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geez, you guys sure are prejudiced against junkies. 

😉

"I most solemnly promise and swear / that I will not indulge unduly / in any drug / such as alcohol, / ether, / opium, / hashish, / or cocaine, / whereby my full consciousness / and free will / might be impaired."

- Part of the First Degree Oath, Ordo Templi Orientis[/align:2ta9f47i]

from Secret Rituals of the OTO by F. King[/align:2ta9f47i]

Spoiler alert.

In all probability, neither of these people really existed historically. Crowley was very real. He was also a real jerk, but he made a real contribution too. I've known people to compare AC with certain biblical prophets... mythological characters.

What exactly is a prophet? Could this be any artist or visionary? Or are they someone with some divine task to uphold? What makes Crowley a prophet and not just a genius?

What a load of hooey. Who are you to say when Crowley was finished or not? Or that he had nothing of value to contribute after a certain point?

The first line of the post you quoted was, "I would like to (once again) express my own personal perspective ..."

I believe the word "finished" was not used.

I am amused by the term, "Who do you think you are ...?" whenever it is used.  It's always a sign of righteous indignation or an opposing emotional attachment to some personal viewpoint of one's own.

Yes Shiva you are correct. I should have just said that I disagree with your assessment.

It is my "personal perspective" that your view does not do Crowley very much justice. I can think of at least five essays, books, etc. that Crowley wrote in or after the 1920's which I think are valuable... Why do you think you are qualified to speak about what his life's work was or wasn't? Who are you, that you can evaluate when his usefulness as an artist, writer, whatever, ran it's course?

I knew you might respond with something like this. Yes it matters. Archaeological and historical evidence is not in the bible's favor. I honestly can't understand how putting this issue to rest once and for all, won't help humanity to progress... but here you say that it "doesn't matter".

I also can't believe that I'd ever have to make the burden of proof argument with someone about Christ, on an AC forum.

As far as comparing Crowley's effectiveness as being a helpful figure in the lives of his followers, no, it really doesn't matter whether or not Jesus and Mohammed were real. They still stand as role models for millions of people. I was simply saying that Crowley is a more human and honest religious teacher than either one, real or not.

Methinks Moog protesteth too much.

And, as usual, with that delicate touch of anger.

You had me at....

I knew you might

I'm largely in agreement with what you're saying, Shiva, except that I would move the year forward to 1919, thus taking in the Amalantrah Working, the writing of Liber Aleph, the Comment on Blavatsky's The Voice of the Silence, and the magical retirement on Aesopus Island. I think that Cefalu interrupted a gathering initiation.

Having said that, Crowley did in my opinion produce some extraordinary works in his last years, such as Little Essays Toward Truth and The Book of Thoth.

Hermetic.com lists Crowley titles published by date. The titles released between 1921 and his death are:

Speculating on Christian Rosenkreuz's possible existence might be a bit more relevant considering this is AC forum.

  93

I believe that experience is the fodder that fuels understanding. In this world how could anyone look for guidance, inspiration or whatever word you chose to describe it from a teacher, master or prophet who has not "done it all", experienced it all? I can't help but think of the hilarious practice of the roman catholic church of placing young priests in the position of marriage counselor to young couples? With feet firmly rooted in the mire we look down upon the wonder of the heavens. Prophet is a word that doesn't quite seem to fit, to me anyway. There is Aleister. There is Rose. Alone we are just that. It was the union of Aleister&Rose which completed the circuit and transmitted the current into the world. How can we speak of Crowley the "prophet" without including Rose? And of the union in his other efforts?
What? Yeah I know. We are in constant union with the abstract universe which surrounds us. It's just this veil...this damn brain.
If you spend enough time studying these forums you find we are orbiting in circles.

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Does Crowley's "role as Prophet" exalt him?

. . . . yes, his slight flaws . . . he did cause the 911 attacks but we can forgive him for that

  93

That's a good question Az.
I have nothing at the moment.

93/93

If you exalt him, or his words, where does that place you and your words?

[Please keep the 9/11 mess in the appropriate thread. We all know Bush did that anyway.]

  93

"Does Crowley's "role as Prophet" exalt him?"
I can't explain why, but for some reason, it is as if I came up against a wall on this question. Perhaps it's the wording? Anyway...
Reflecting on the vast changes that have occurred in our human condition in the last hundred years or so, I see Aleister Crowley as a man who appeared on the earth during and in a unique window of opportunity. There are those that will disagree with me on this but I believe that by his actions, which he fearlessly placed before the entire worlds view has caused the internal changes that so many have and are experiencing today. I hold him in the same esteem that you would any teacher which has sparked internal illumination and understanding of your "self" or this world which surrounds you. I wanted to say something about responding to our experiences here but lost it.
"If you exalt him, or his words, where does that place you and your words?"
It places me exactly where I am in the chain of human existence and experience. I view every human being manifesting on this planet as a link in a flowing chain. I suppose it could be worded in other ways but I tend to see exitence as a chain? with infinite links? I fully expect my words to be meaningless to everyone but I. It is at times like this which I cannot think and know nothing, these words seem to well up from out of nowhere. So I will go back to what I was busily doing before...nothing.

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The one that makes a difference is the one that makes the sense of separation. Otherwise, there is no difference.

By exalting I mean, "Does that somehow make him better, or make his words better, more lofty of praise, worthy of a pedestal, etc.", to which the answer is no.

If you are ready to see the meaningfulness, meaninglessness, and absence of meaning in your own words, then try applying it to the words of others - with no preference. Go until the need for meaning itself vanishes. The one that creates the need for meaning is the meaning.

In hindsight, I probably shoulda called this thread "Crowley's personal flaws make him a more honest and human religious figure and teacher" rather than used the word "prophet." Because after all, my understanding of these boards is that one does not have to subscribe to any certain belief system to participate. By posting the topic, I only meant to show that Crowley's personal behavior shouldn't give Thelemites cold feet about the man. In fact, the opposite is true. As far as him being a prophet or not, and what that means or should mean to one of his followers, that's all up to the individual. I hardly see what good could come from debating whether or not he was or wasn't the Logos. Some folks believe it, some don't.

UG Krishnamurti tells us ...

"My grandfather was a very cultured man. He knew Blavatsky and Olcott, and then, later on, the second and third generations of Theosophists. They all visited our house. He had learned men on his payroll and he dedicated himself for some reason ... to create a profound atmosphere for me and to educate me in the right way, inspired by the Theosophists and the whole lot.

'And so, every morning those fellows would come and read the Upanishads, Panchadasi, Nyshkarmya Siddhi, the commentaries, the commentaries on commentaries, the whole lot, from four o'clock to six o'clock, and this little boy of five, six or seven years had to listen to all that crap. So much so that by the time I reached my seventh year I could repeat most of those things.

"So many holy men visited my house - the Ramakrishna Order and the others; you name it, and those fellows had somehow visited that house - that was an open house for every holy man. So, one thing I discovered when I was quite young was that they were all hypocrites: they said something, they believed something, and their lives were shallow, nothing.

"I lived in the midst of people who talked of these things everlastingly - everybody was false, I can tell you. So somehow, what you call existentialist nausea - revulsion against everything sacred and everything holy - crept into my system and threw everything out."

I'm not sure, but I don't think we'll find anyone incarnated, anywhere, who doesn't have "personal flaws."

Exactly.

Part of the problem, it seems to me, is that the "god" of Christianity is presented as being totally "perfect;" and indeed I would say that this fictional god is certainly a "perfect" example of a subhuman, anti-human, human nature hating, genocidal and bigoted religious fanatic who threatens to return to kill off all the non believers.

Thus when we consider Crowley, who was simply a human being rather than a fictional god, and compare him to the fictional bigot Jesus, I think that it is not that Jesus is portrayed as being "perfect" and "flawless," but rather that Jesus is portrayed as a living definition of the term" flawed;" it is just that to be an entirely flawed and biogoted human being is presented as a model of perfection.

Frankly with the Jesus fable we are dealing with a "flawed" image of a human being and a false prophet who made utterly impossible predictions, whereas Crowley in comparison would appear to be far more virtuous, sensible and human loving. A much better model I think.

Lux

Excessive Graffiti.
Too much advertsing for LuciferFilms.tv.
Continual ongoing self-promotion is not appreciated.[/align:3kchpnu6]

Maybe he is trying to aggressively convert us! 🙂

Seconded.

Wonderful and at the same time disheartening.

93

Brilliant post.  93  93/93