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Do I really need to raise the kundalini to be able to do my True Will?  

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Anonymous
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24/05/2014 7:35 pm  

93

It's a simple question and I would like you to consider what the "kundalini" is and why Crowley encourages this in his system.  I hope Los or any similar thinkers get in on this thread as I am interested in the skeptical view and Thelema.  Teacher of Thelema , Dr Shoemaker has stated that we need kundalini experience in order to fully crank up the Bhatki devotional process.  This enables us , in time, to engage in the ultimate Bhakti process i.e. the long term (months ) ritual of union with our HGA.  We attain the kundanini- raising from extensive work on our Hindustani asanas and pranayama work, as seen in Liber E where Crowley instructs us to sit in a painful posture for over an hour and then all going well we advance to restricting breath to each nostril for various amounts of time (e.g. 20 seconds) and this also for at least an hour. 

Out of curiosity I attempted these practices and found them to be euphoric, stress releasing and enjoyable (when my asana wasn't excruciating).  Hindu practitioners say that there are health benefits in such practices.  In their more mystical turn of mind they inform us that by doing these exercises, "the nadis are being balanced".  As there is no evidence for the existence of nadis by traditional science I ask you to reserve your judgement on this matter.

Do you think that these practices are  necessary in order to attain to union with one's HGA?  In the zen tradition, which is very similar to Thelema but lacking a long-term True Will concept, there are no painful asanas, physical comfort is the key and any manipulation of breath is discouraged on the way to attaining Satori (enlightenment ; self-awareness).   

Thankyou


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Shiva
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24/05/2014 11:29 pm  
"david" wrote:
... there is no evidence for the existence of nadis by traditional science ...

Hmmm. The nadis, or "lines of force" can be seen in many kirlian photos; these are the external, radiating lines of prana-chi-qi-ki.

[/align:2tcs8qat]

The internal nadis or "lines of force" are laid out like a road map, and the major highways are known as acupuncture channels or meridians. Acupuncture is now a licensed profession in most Asian and European countries and in most of the United States. In order to get a license, one must pass a test that includes these energetic pathways, the existence of which, by the way, can be detected with a relatively simple electical device (that is owned by many [if not most] acupuncturists).

[/align:2tcs8qat]

Which "traditional" science did you think had no proof? Oh, maybe some of those medical doctors? Well, even they have given up their prejudices and have formed their own schools of acupuncture just for MDs.

"All Rods of Initiation cause certain effects: [including] ...
The arousing of the kundalini fire (or the fire at the base of the spine), and the direction of its upward progression.  This fire, and the fire of manas [mind], are directed along certain routes—or triangles—by the following of the Rod as it moves in a specified manner.  There is a definite occult reason, under the laws of electricity, behind the known fact that every initiate presented to the Initiator is accompanied by two of the Masters, Who stand one on either side of the initiate.  The three of Them together form a triangle which makes the work possible."
- Initiation, Human and Solar

"37. Then from the heart that Power shall rise into the sixth, the middle region, the place between thin eyes, when it becomes the breath of the ONE-SOUL, the voice which filleth all, thy Master’s voice.

^"This verse teaches the concentration of the kundalini in the Ajñā Cakra. “Breath” is that which goes to and fro, and refers to the uniting of Shiva with Shakti in the Sahasrara. (See The Equinox.)"
- The Voice of the Silence (Crowley's version)

"True Will" is a concept attributed to Chokmah. Although one may engage certain aspects of Chokmah without kundalini-rising, it is unlikely that one will come fully in harmony with the Universal Will without the ego-destroying function of said kundalini.

Of course, once that has taken place and has run its full course, one moves on to Kether, and the whole deal is seen as an illusion. Many authors suggest that the "rising" not be encouraged, but merely allowed to happen in its own time and place.


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Anonymous
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25/05/2014 2:48 am  
"Shiva" wrote:
"True Will" is a concept attributed to Chokmah. Although one may engage certain aspects of Chokmah without kundalini-rising, it is unlikely that one will come fully in harmony with the Universal Will without the ego-destroying function of said kundalini.

Of course, once that has taken place and has run its full course, one moves on to Kether, and the whole deal is seen as an illusion. Many authors suggest that the "rising" not be encouraged, but merely allowed to happen in its own time and place.

Kirlian photography debate and little electrical aura-detecting machine debate aside, could you please try and express what you mean without reference to abstract mystical concepts such as "Chokmah" and "Kether"?.    I'm talking about the instructions in Liber E and whether we think that they are necessary for discovering and living out our True Will?  What does sitting still  for an hour doing alternate-nostril breath counting actually do for someone who wants to achieve that goal?  Is it really necessary?

Thankyou


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Los
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25/05/2014 6:05 pm  
"david" wrote:
Do you think that these practices are  necessary in order to attain to union with one's HGA?

What do you mean by "union with one's HGA"? 


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 Anonymous
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25/05/2014 7:52 pm  
"david" wrote:
Out of curiosity I attempted these practices and found them to be euphoric, stress releasing and enjoyable (when my asana wasn't excruciating).  Hindu practitioners say that there are health benefits in such practices.

“‘Theosophist.’  A person who talks about Yoga, and does no work.” -Glossary in Liber ABA, “Part 1: Mysticism”

http://hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib9.html#6

Ascertain how much alcohol you can take, and what forms of drunkenness assail you.

Out of curiosity, one could also try this practice mentioned in the Liber E, and find out this to be very euphoric, stress releasing and enjoyable experience. This is still quite missing the point.


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Shiva
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25/05/2014 8:40 pm  
"david" wrote:
Do you think that these practices are  necessary in order to attain to union with one's HGA?

That would be for you to determine. Everyone is different. The curriculum of the A.'.A.'. is far-flung, and it attempts to provide a full range of practices. The initiate's "duty" is to essentially do all of them; then, when it comes time to design one's own rite for contacting the HGA, he/she will include those practices that he/she has found to be effective.

"It is impossible to lay down precise rules by which a man may attain to the knowledge and conversation of His Holy Guardian Angel; for that is the particular secret of each one of us; as secret not to be told or even divined by any other, whatever his grade. It is the Holy of Holies, whereof each man is his own High Priest, and none knoweth the Name of his brother's God, or the Rite that invokes Him. The Masters of the A.'. A.'. have therefore made no attempt to institute any regular ritual for this central Work of their Order ... They have taken the only proper course; to train aspirants to this attainment in the theory and practice of the whole of Magick and Mysticism, so that each man may be expert in the handling of all known weapons, and free to choose and to use those which his own experience and instinct dictate as proper when he essays the Great Experiment"
- One Star in Sight


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Anonymous
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25/05/2014 9:58 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
"david" wrote:
Do you think that these practices are  necessary in order to attain to union with one's HGA?

That would be for you to determine. Everyone is different. The curriculum of the A.'.A.'. is far-flung, and it attempts to provide a full range of practices. The initiate's "duty" is to essentially do all of them; then, when it comes time to design one's own rite for contacting the HGA, he/she will include those practices that he/she has found to be effective.

"It is impossible to lay down precise rules by which a man may attain to the knowledge and conversation of His Holy Guardian Angel; for that is the particular secret of each one of us; as secret not to be told or even divined by any other, whatever his grade. It is the Holy of Holies, whereof each man is his own High Priest, and none knoweth the Name of his brother's God, or the Rite that invokes Him. The Masters of the A.'. A.'. have therefore made no attempt to institute any regular ritual for this central Work of their Order ... They have taken the only proper course; to train aspirants to this attainment in the theory and practice of the whole of Magick and Mysticism, so that each man may be expert in the handling of all known weapons, and free to choose and to use those which his own experience and instinct dictate as proper when he essays the Great Experiment"
- One Star in Sight

Only one thing to say to that

......... brilliant answer!


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 Anonymous
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03/06/2014 6:21 am  

Hi David,

the asana's proscribed in Liber E are not necessary concerning your enquiry. A comfortable asana with which you have gained a good degree of control is fine. The key is to cause improbable the impinging's upon awareness of physical distractions which arise from prolonged meditation without moving - it is in this sense that Liber E applies.

I have never given much attention to bindu seed mantras or many-faceted complicated yantras taught in sundry texts - really, these instructions would moreso cause the phenomenalisation of causing psychological obstacles which would become active contagents pitting the ego against itself, which is contrary to the requisite ease and tension free attitude needed, both of body and of the psych. Well that's my opinion. These "teachers" should be careful with what they wish upon others. I don't care if they burn themselvs prematurely into the Abyss.

The Kundalini should be shrouded in warnings because for every little glory there is an equally dark descent into the instincts; they bombard and assauge thee relentlessly and one finds oneself in very dark tunnels fighting against powerful primal urges.Very powerful - overwhelmingly so.

So just make sure you want to do this. I'll help where I can.

Regards


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Anonymous
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03/06/2014 11:24 pm  
"Atua Paul Alton Ngatai" wrote:
Hi David,

the asana's proscribed in Liber E are not necessary concerning your enquiry. A comfortable asana with which you have gained a good degree of control is fine. The key is to cause improbable the impinging's upon awareness of physical distractions which arise from prolonged meditation without moving - it is in this sense that Liber E applies.

I have never given much attention to bindu seed mantras or many-faceted complicated yantras taught in sundry texts - really, these instructions would moreso cause the phenomenalisation of causing psychological obstacles which would become active contagents pitting the ego against itself, which is contrary to the requisite ease and tension free attitude needed, both of body and of the psych. Well that's my opinion. These "teachers" should be careful with what they wish upon others. I don't care if they burn themselvs prematurely into the Abyss.

The Kundalini should be shrouded in warnings because for every little glory there is an equally dark descent into the instincts; they bombard and assauge thee relentlessly and one finds oneself in very dark tunnels fighting against powerful primal urges.Very powerful - overwhelmingly so.

So just make sure you want to do this. I'll help where I can.

Regards

Thankyou.

In retrospect, the answer is a resounding, "NO" if it is not my inclination.  That goes for all.  Experiment by all means.  Our inclinations reside, "behind" the emotional level, the fantasies and the inner dialogue.  What does an hour (or two) of energetic (source unknown) spinal rush do for that process?  Nothing as such.  No more than a typical,  transitory euphoria in my opinion. 


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 Anonymous
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05/06/2014 3:32 pm  

There are also other processes in the human body stimulated by the kundalini currents. According to the gnostics changes occurs in the glands, for instance the pituary gland. Also mantras stimulates the pituary gland, the vibrations, according to some sources. The whole system is affected. Google it up.


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Anonymous
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07/06/2014 12:41 am  
"Shiva" wrote:
"david" wrote:
... there is no evidence for the existence of nadis by traditional science ...

Hmmm. The nadis, or "lines of force" can be seen in many kirlian photos; these are the external, radiating lines of prana-chi-qi-ki.

[/align:37wv76rn]

The internal nadis or "lines of force" are laid out like a road map, and the major highways are known as acupuncture channels or meridians. Acupuncture is now a licensed profession in most Asian and European countries and in most of the United States. In order to get a license, one must pass a test that includes these energetic pathways, the existence of which, by the way, can be detected with a relatively simple electical device (that is owned by many [if not most] acupuncturists).

[/align:37wv76rn]

Which "traditional" science did you think had no proof? Oh, maybe some of those medical doctors? Well, even they have given up their prejudices and have formed their own schools of acupuncture just for MDs.

"All Rods of Initiation cause certain effects: [including] ...
The arousing of the kundalini fire (or the fire at the base of the spine), and the direction of its upward progression.  This fire, and the fire of manas [mind], are directed along certain routes—or triangles—by the following of the Rod as it moves in a specified manner.  There is a definite occult reason, under the laws of electricity, behind the known fact that every initiate presented to the Initiator is accompanied by two of the Masters, Who stand one on either side of the initiate.  The three of Them together form a triangle which makes the work possible."
- Initiation, Human and Solar

.

.

Allegedly, this special method of "photographing" objects is a gateway to the paranormal world of auras. Actually, what is recorded is due to quite natural phenomena such as pressure, electrical grounding, humidity and temperature. Changes in moisture (which may reflect changes in emotions), barometric pressure, and voltage, among other things, will produce different 'auras'. 

Living things...are moist. When the electricity enters the living object, it produces an area of gas ionization around the photographed object, assuming moisture is present on the object. This moisture is transferred from the subject to the emulsion surface of the photographic film and causes an alternation of the electric charge pattern on the film. If a photograph is taken in a vacuum, where no ionized gas is present, no Kirlian image appears. If the Kirlian image were due to some paranormal fundamental living energy field, it should not disappear in a simple vacuum (Hines 2003).

There have even been claims of electrophotography being able to capture "phantom limbs," e.g., when a leaf is placed on the plate and then torn in half and "photographed," the whole leaf shows up in the picture. This is not due to paranormal forces, however, but to fraud or to residues left from the initial impression of the whole leaf.

http://skepdic.com/kirlian.html


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Shiva
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07/06/2014 2:23 am  
"david" wrote:
Actually, what is recorded is due to quite natural phenomena such as ...

Oh no!  Now we'll have to confiscate all those electronic acupoint detectors and rescind all acupuncture licenses and prohibit medical diagnosis based on kirlian photography ...
Even though these methods work and disease is lessened or dispelled.

People are quick to cite definitions, but I prefer to trust the proven outcomes that I see with my own eyes and experience with my own instruments and under my own license. The patients appreciate it as well.


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newneubergOuch2
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07/06/2014 3:10 am  

Crowley sketch.


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christibrany
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07/06/2014 9:21 am  

well at the risk of sounding simple i simply offer this.
there was a time, before I even knew what Thelema was, that I was a very serious student of bhakti yoga. 
I was in a library in colorado, and a book literally fell on my head. I can't even begin to think what I was looking for now, as this was sometime around 2001, but long story short , the book was the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna.
Through this book I discovered so much beauty.  And as with most holy texts I realise that, it's not so much the text (usually dry) as the state of mind (receptiveness) . But that said, every little drop in the ocean helps to overflow the dam, so ; I became a bhakta (devotee) of Kali.
It was very scary. (Richard Scary) 😉 At first; but i had so many experiences of dipping in the milk ocean of bliss, and finding out how one can divulge, diverge, and divest oneself of ones ego to find the real You (YES NOW YOU CAN FINALLY FIND WHO YOU REALLY ARE 😉 ) to doubt that it really was at the very least extremely useful. 
And during these occurrences, of pure devotion, I felt such wonderful , blissful (better than drugs or sex) feelings, simply by a repetition of well, pure surrender; pure devotion; pure divulging, and divesting of all that we are and can be; that I realised that we are far more than our bodies and far more than our minds; there is that that continues to live.  And to get to the POINT; i felt the energy rising. 
(what do they call it these days? oh disclaimer: ) I had been in a Korean Taoist sort of Tai Chi thing for about a year or two ; and I can never discount that; because I totally believe the movements; and the state of mind regarding peace and what is Truly Important in life totally helped. Because after all, what helps more in life than the feeling that we know What's Right, and we are In the Right and most of all Improving Ourselves?
anyway Kundalini is important. Even if you dont feel like labelling it. Its a feeling. When you sit in asana, and you do it for a long time, and you feel a tingling coming up from your base of your spine to your head and you get dizzy, well thats a base feeling.

Now bring on the flamers! I love the heat, its sexy. 🙂
Just trying to help.


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HG
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07/06/2014 9:39 am  
"Shiva" wrote:
"david" wrote:
Actually, what is recorded is due to quite natural phenomena such as ...

Oh no!  Now we'll have to confiscate all those electronic acupoint detectors and rescind all acupuncture licenses and prohibit medical diagnosis based on kirlian photography ...
Even though these methods work and disease is lessened or dispelled.

People are quick to cite definitions, but I prefer to trust the proven outcomes that I see with my own eyes and experience with my own instruments and under my own license. The patients appreciate it as well.

I don't doubt your methods can work.

The placebo effect has been scientifically proven to be both real and effective.

"It works" does not mean "it works in the way I believe it works".

(By the way, I think the placebo effect is an outstanding example of honest-to-goodness real, working, effective magick.  It works, but it does so in mysterious and unknown ways.  Note that "mysterious and unknown" does not mean "supernatural".)


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Shiva
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07/06/2014 5:28 pm  

Oh yeah, the "placebo effect." 😉

That's why these methods under discussion work on animals, right?

Almost everything being said here was said two or three decades ago. As previously stated (by me), medical doctors raised all manner of opposition to acupuncture, nadis, channels, acupoints, the concept of qi (chi), etc. ... Today they have formed their own schools of acupuncture and are generally intent on stealing the business away from the acupuncturists.

Anyway, some folks here are re-hashing the olde arguements - based on what they think is true, and not on any personal experience or ability. I wonder how many of our "expert opinionists" are actually able to see (much less interepret) energy fields? I doubt that any single critic is a trained acupuncturist, or has had a kirlian diagnosis, or is a qi gong practitioner, or has had a surgical operation performed on themselves with energetic analgesia (as opposed to chemical anesthesia). We have heard all the opinionated crap many times, and now it's time (for me) to drop the subject. I am, after all, retired, and tired of it all.

(The engagement suddenly ends here).


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Los
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07/06/2014 6:39 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
(The engagement suddenly ends here).

Yeah, like that time I posted a critique of the laughable "evidence" you provided for energy healing, and you just stopped talking. That's what you supernaturalist types do. You make far out claims, supported by little more than how you personally feel about it, and just stick your fingers in your ears when someone points out the flaws in your position.

I wonder how many of our "expert opinionists" are actually able to see (much less interepret) energy fields?

Here's a great example. Are you claiming that you can see "energy fields"? If you can actually really see something that's really there, we could design a double-blind test that could demonstrate it. Of course, you'll never engage in such a test. You'll be too busy, too bored, too afraid of the imaginary conspiracies you've convinced yourself exist, or too full of ad hoc rationalizations that explain away all of the many failures.


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Shiva
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07/06/2014 6:53 pm  

You are invited to put it in the dark place.

You have also been (previously) invited to attend Tai Chi / Qi Gong class any/every Tuesday morning in Belen, NM, where weekly energy demonstrations are given, and you can apply any tests you wish.


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 Anonymous
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08/06/2014 6:58 pm  

Kundalini IS your True Will.

Raising it to a center above Malkuth means experiencing and understanding her energies more consciously.

Rising of Kundalini takes place when you do spiritual practice - any spiritual practice that can put you in a trance, not necessarily just Kundalini practice. I once experienced Kundalini when listening to KING DIAMOND in bed 🙂


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Anonymous
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08/06/2014 9:46 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
You are invited to put it in the dark place.

You have also been (previously) invited to attend Tai Chi / Qi Gong class any/every Tuesday morning in Belen, NM, where weekly energy demonstrations are given, and you can apply any tests you wish.

How are these experiments conducted?  What are the details?


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Michael Staley
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08/06/2014 9:53 pm  
"david" wrote:
"Shiva" wrote:
You are invited to put it in the dark place.

You have also been (previously) invited to attend Tai Chi / Qi Gong class any/every Tuesday morning in Belen, NM, where weekly energy demonstrations are given, and you can apply any tests you wish.

How are these experiments conducted?  What are the details?

They're not experiments, FFS. They are a bunch of people attending a class and getting on with what they want to do.


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Anonymous
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09/06/2014 12:21 pm  
"Michael Staley" wrote:
"david" wrote:
"Shiva" wrote:
You are invited to put it in the dark place.

You have also been (previously) invited to attend Tai Chi / Qi Gong class any/every Tuesday morning in Belen, NM, where weekly energy demonstrations are given, and you can apply any tests you wish.

How are these experiments conducted?  What are the details?

They're not experiments, FFS. They are a bunch of people attending a class and getting on with what they want to do.

I think that, "chi" and "orgone" are interchangeable terms.  They are models.  "By doing certain things certain things happen"


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Shiva
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09/06/2014 3:32 pm  

Chi = Qi = Ki = Prana = Orgone.
All'ee sam'ee thing'ee.
Translation: Qi (chi) = "breath."
Loose English meaning = "Life Force."


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jamie barter
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10/06/2014 5:20 pm  
"Los" wrote:
"Shiva" wrote:
(The engagement suddenly ends here).

Yeah, like that time I posted a critique of the laughable "evidence" you provided for energy healing, and you just stopped talking. That's what you supernaturalist types do. You make far out claims, supported by little more than how you personally feel about it, and just stick your fingers in your ears when someone points out the flaws in your position.

Yeah, like an extraordinary case of the pot calling the kettle black here!  It’s fascinating that "sceptical types" such as Los appear to like berating others for not “talking” or coming back to their points appropriately (viz Shiva, Michael Staley et cetera/al) and yet, once the jackboot is on the other foot, the silence is – er, deafening?  (Please forgive unimaginative use of clichés)

"Shiva" wrote:
You are invited to put it in the dark place.
You have also been (previously) invited to attend Tai Chi / Qi Gong class any/every Tuesday morning in Belen, NM, where weekly energy demonstrations are given, and you can apply any tests you wish.

Today (or next Tuesday) Belen, New Mexico --- tomorrow (or next Friday?) the world (– or maybe at least, the levitation by a few centimetres of the U.S. Pentagon)?  ;D

Yip yip, yooray
Norma N Joy Conquest


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 Anonymous
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27/06/2014 6:10 am  

I can see people losing patience with the OP and naturally, aspirants to thelema by nature usually being self-assertive types, the resentment and justifications by the OP can creep in. One minute asking, the next minute telling!

All that needs to be said has been said. You don't ask anyone's advice on attaining the HGA, even your Instructor, since if they gave you that advice it would make them a black brother.

But a little clarification can be made on other practices. Just getting things in their place. There's all this stuff about jumping in with zen and all sorts of different practices and it's fun for discussion but doesn't go where you want for a very particular reason: that is, if you have learnt some exceedingly cool phrases and gymnastics in Spanish, no disrespect, but they don't get you very far in France. At best, the process of learning (Spanish) may have helped to equip you learning good French.

Intense bhakti – cool – that sounds like the Spanish. So then, if you are interested in the 'Crowley' system, do a properly recorded and conscientious term of Liber Astarte. Students unfortunately can get to a stage where they know so much, including genuine experiences, maybe amazing ones, that it takes infinitely longer to empty their head and get any 'umble bit of new stuff in. I rather wonder if the OP has got to that point.

Let's say you go to France with a zillion amazing Spanish phrases and a smattering of Ukrainian for good measure. Your friend in Paris says look, forget it, sit down with a basic French phrase book, now! So you go online instead and a hundred people tell you that your Spanish is cool and lots of people in France understand Spanish and just go out and have a good time. A person then, with much increased confidence ventures into a slightly dangerous arrondissement. The next Frenchman he meets maybe isn't so kind.


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gurugeorge
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27/06/2014 5:54 pm  
"HG" wrote:
(By the way, I think the placebo effect is an outstanding example of honest-to-goodness real, working, effective magick.  It works, but it does so in mysterious and unknown ways.  Note that "mysterious and unknown" does not mean "supernatural".)

Yeah, I've seen notice of more serious work being done on the "placebo" effect recently.

It was bound to occur to doctors and scientists at some point, that the mind being able to heal the body just through sheer belief is actually probably a far more interesting mechanism to study and get to the bottom of than almost any other in medical science (at least insofar as the aim of medicine is partly to heal people of the common, everyday things that ail them).

If you can game that mechanism and get the mind and body themselves to do most of the heavy lifting in healing (perhaps just by tweaking something genetically or with a drug) then the need for heavier (and inevitably double-edged) drug or chemical interventions into the system is lessened.

It is kind of ironic though, and food for reflection on cost/benefit analysis (particularly wrt the history of medicine), that belief in something unrealistic or whacky can actually help heal someone.

Re. kundalini: I think the likely truth of it is that it's a complex psycho-physiological phenomenon seen through a glass darkly.  Also, you have to be careful with some of the descriptions of it in traditions - the referent could be anything ranging from mystical transformations and insights understood via metaphor, to actual psycho-physiological goings-on, or some mixture.

However, that type of yoga has to be given respect for understanding something fundamental, even if only in the abstract: stuff going on the mind is paralleled by stuff going on in the body and brain.  People still kick against that. 

I mean, in general, as practice or experiment, I prefer Jnana to Yoga (this is the classical Indian distinction, as opposed to the one derived from the idiosyncratic, mixed system of Ramakrishna we got from Vivekananda, and also distinct thing from the chapter headings in the Baghavadgita).  That is to say, mystical insight is always a matter of understanding, not the sheer having of an experience induced by body manipulation.

But just as listening to Beethoven is a physiological event as well as a psychological one, just as understanding the truth of a proposition is partly connected with a brain event, so is mystical understanding bound to be.

(Not going into philosophical questions like emergence, supervenience, dualism, etc., etc., but that there is at least some kind of parallel is surely now beyond doubt.)


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