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Los
 Los
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The coincidance of contraries...I really should read more of Wilson's work. I understand that in one of his books, he demonstrates how one can read virtually anything into the Wake. That's certainly the case, but then again, if you're creative enough, you can read anything into any long text (the Bible Code, anyone? Moby Dick?).

In regards to the Humpty Dumpty connection, it certainly is a "coincidance" (if you will) between Joyce and Crowley -- of course, as far as I'm aware, only Joyce links it to the defecation motif in his novel: "he dumptied the wholeborrow of rubbages on to soil here" (17). The fall is a kind of fertilizer for the future generations, the laying of an egg that contains the universe.

Anyway, here's my Wake reference for today. I was searching the novel for the word "Chaos": "every person, place and thing in the chaosmos of Alle anyway connected with the gobblydumped turkery was moving and changing every part of the time" (118).

Unfortunately, "Chaos" is too broad a reference to be specifically Thelemic, but notice here that the cosmos contains chaos, linking together all things in their becoming. "Alle" is both German for "all" and Greek for "other." Through Chaos (and the cosmos!), we are each bound to the Other.

I've been working on an article on Finnegans Wake for Thelemites interested in studying the novel -- do you think there would be interest in such an item in the Thelemic community (outside of the few participants in this thread)? Like I said, I'd also like to get a chapter-by-chapter discussion of the novel going; I think that would be really rewarding.


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 Anonymous
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I've been working on an article on Finnegans Wake for Thelemites interested in studying the novel -- do you think there would be interest in such an item in the Thelemic community (outside of the few participants in this thread)?

I'd like to see a book that explores the uses of riddle, pun and "grotesque" satire in the arts. One could write such a book focused on Rabelais, Joyce & Crowley's works that would greatly enhance our understanding of all three mad geniuses and their wicked sense of humor.


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 Anonymous
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"Los" wrote:
The coincidance of contraries...I really should read more of Wilson's work. I understand that in one of his books, he demonstrates how one can read virtually anything into the Wake. That's certainly the case, but then again, if you're creative enough, you can read anything into any long text (the Bible Code, anyone? Moby Dick?).

I've read all of Wilson's books that I can find and recall no such passage. Also studied FW in an online class with him and he never mentioned that. FW, like any good qabalistic system, can be used as a kind of "crystal ball." That is, you can learn things about yourself by observing the nature of the interpretations you choose to make.

"Los" wrote:
I've been working on an article on Finnegans Wake for Thelemites interested in studying the novel -- do you think there would be interest in such an item in the Thelemic community (outside of the few participants in this thread)? Like I said, I'd also like to get a chapter-by-chapter discussion of the novel going; I think that would be really rewarding.

I definitely think there would be interest.

My quote for today from p. 473:

"The phaynix rose a sun before Erebia sank his
smother! Shoot up on that, bright Bennu bird! Va faotre!
Eftsoon so too will our own sphoenix spark spirt his spyre
and sunward stride the rampante flambe. Ay, already the
sombrer opacities of the gloom are sphanished! Brave footsore
Haun! Work your progress! Hold to! Now! Win out, ye divil ye!
The silent cock shall crow at last. The west shall shake the east
awake. Walk while ye have the night for morn,
lightbreakfastbringer, morroweth whereon every past shall full fost sleep.
Amain"

Not much unambiguous Thelemic context except the allusion to his name. That sentence, however, puns with one of the main tenets of the Book of Lies - related to NEMO and why the BOL has 91 numbered chapters - the final "Amain" backs this up - see ch.91 of BOL. 'ye divil ye' could refer to the popular public perception of AC in the '20's and '30's ( and later). 'The west shall shake the east awake' could easily refer to Liber Legis and its ramifications. Phoenix, of course, refers to that park in Dublin but also has presence in the BOL...'rose a sun' and 'sunward stride' puns on phoenix indicating that Joyce was reffering to more than just the park. They both, also, have relevance with the BOL.


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ianrons
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Erm... for a poem about dawn, it seems pretty reasonable to have stuff about a cock crowing, and the Sun as Phoenix. Nothing whatsoever to suggest Crowley or Liber Legis, or anything of that nature. Also when you say "pun on" you seem to mean "allusion to". I can only imagine your reference to Cap. 91 is some kind of joke upon "The final Mystery is always insoluble"...


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 Anonymous
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"ianrons" wrote:
Erm... for a poem about dawn, it seems pretty reasonable to have stuff about a cock crowing, and the Sun as Phoenix. Nothing whatsoever to suggest Crowley or Liber Legis, or anything of that nature. Also when you say "pun on" you seem to mean "allusion to".

Both "crow" and "ye divil ye" could easily refer to Crowley without stretching the imagination too much.

I mean both "pun on" and "allusion to" The allusion, if true, makes a pun. I agree that one meaning of this possible pun simply alludes to the dawn. However, the following sentence, "The west shall shake the east awake," implies more than simply the rising of the sun and a rooster crowing. The preceding lines, ' Brave footsore Haun! Work your progress! Hold to! Now! Win out, ye divil ye! suggests someone working through the night which seems isomorphic with the Book of Lies:

...and it also symbolises the eventual coming out into the light of his that has wandered long into the darkness.
- Commentary from ch. 91

The Book of Lies ends with" A.M.E.N." This FW passage and chapter ends with "Amain."

Another fairly obvious pun has the passage referring to Joyce and the writing of FW. "Work In Progress" was the working title of FW

"ianrons" wrote:
I can only imagine your reference to Cap. 91 is some kind of joke upon "The final Mystery is always insoluble"..."

No, not my reference. Was referring to a possible allusion of "silent cock" with A.M.E.N.

"Eftsoon so too will our own sphoenix spark spirt his spyre
and sunward stride the rampante flambe"

Could easily refer to sex magick along with the obvious allusion to Nora's hand job in Phoenix Park which took place at dusk or night, I believe.


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ianrons
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This is the OED definition of a pun:
The use of a word in such a way as to suggest two or more meanings or different associations, or the use of two or more words of the same or nearly the same sound with different meanings, so as to produce a humorous effect; a play on words.
e.g., "Moron Terror" instead of "War on Terror"; or "very punny". It is not the same as a reference, allusion, metaphor, metonymy, etc.

I think you're really stretching your allusions and metaphors too, but maybe that's half the fun. 🙂


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OKontrair
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If an argument is false then even if you win - a gain's fake.


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 Anonymous
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I would say a gain has nothing to do with winning or losing an argument.

When I allude to a meaning for something that already has another meaning, I'm calling that a pun. For example, to stretch it in Joycean fashion: "War on Terror" alludes to "War on tear her" ( tear, as in rip and tear as in crying) giving the phrase a second and third different meanings. I don't think that's incorrect usage of the word "pun" but maybe so. Grammar not my forte


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 Anonymous
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As a result of a Thelemite discussion thread in another place - on Crowley's ambiguous attribution of Kerubic animal forms to the elements - I am reminded that James Joyce had very odd ideas on the matter. He indicates it indirectly through the Four Approved Evangelists, with the names of the Four Old Men - Matt Gregory [human], Marcus Lyons [lion], Luke Tarpey [Bull] and Johnny McDougal [eagle]. So far, so conventional; but then, on P223:

He askit of the hoothed fireshield but it was untergone into the matthued heaven.

- Matthew = human = Fire [?];

He soughed it from the luft but that bore ne mark ne message.

Mark= lion = Air [?]

He luked upon the bloomingrund where ongly his corns were growning.

Luke = Bull = Earth

At last he listed back to beckline how she pranked alone so johntily.

John = eagle = water

The skand for schooling. With nought a wired from the wordless either.

Bzzzt Wrong, Jim. Two out of four at best. Crowley (post Vision & Voice) would say 0 out of four. Call yerself a Qabalist?

OP


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 Anonymous
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"OliverP" wrote:
Crowley (post Vision & Voice) would say 0 out of four. Call yerself a Qabalist?

Curse the lack of an edit key! One out of four; we can all agree on Earth = Bull.

OP


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 Anonymous
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From p. 227:

"Go in for scribenery with the satiety of arthurs in S.P.Q.R.ish
and inform to the old sniggering publicking press and its nation
of sheepcopers about the whole plighty troth between them,
malady of milady made melodi of malodi, she, the lalage of
lyonesses, and him, her knave arrant. To Wildrose La Gilligan from
Croppy Crowhore. For all within crystal range.
Ukalepe. Loathers' leave. Had Days. Nemo in Patria.
The Luncher Out.
Skilly and Carubdish. A Wondering Wreck. From the
Mermaids' Tavern. Bullyfamous. Naughtsycalves. Mother of Misery.
Walpurgas Nackt. "

This may seem like "stretching it," but it's all in good fun. We see an allusion to Crowley and Rose. Two references to Rose as "la" - "lalage" and "Wildrose La Gilligan." Also, "Had Days," a pun of Hadit and hard? and Nemo. The "k" in "publicking" suggests the "k" in magick. A few lines later on the same page:

"(and what a strip poker globbtrottel they pairs would
looks!) how wholefallows, his guffer, the sabbatarian (might
faction split his beard!), he too had a great big oh in the
megafundum of his tomashunders and how her Lettyshape,"

The first line could suggest AC and Rose's honeymoon; "wholefallows" plays on "whole of the law." A few lines down from that, same page:

He would jused sit it all write down just as he
would jused set it up all writhefully rate in blotch and void,
yielding to no man in hymns ignorance,seeing how heartsilly
sorey he was, owning to the condrition of his bikestool. And,
reading off his fleshskin and writing with his quillbone, fillfull
ninequires with it for his auditers, Caxton and Pollock, a most
moraculous jeeremyhead sindbook for all the peoples, under the
presidency of the suchess of sceaunonsceau, a hadtobe heldin,

The highlighted line gives another allusion/definition of nemo. These passages seem to obliquely suggest the reception of Liber Al. However, the obscurity of the references may have people 'jeering at my head' also.


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Los
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"Joyce, p. 277" wrote:
To Wildrose La Gilligan from
Croppy Crowhore. For all within crystal range. Ukalepe. Loathers' leave. Had Days. Nemo in Patria. The Luncher Out. Skilly and Carubdish. A Wondering Wreck. From the Mermaids' Tavern. Bullyfamous. Naughtsycalves. Mother of Misery. Walpurgas Nackt.

As your friendly neighborhood Devil's Advocate, I feel compelled to point out that this passage contains parodies of the chapter titles of Ulysses (Shem, like Joyce, has produced an "immoral" book).

"Had Days" is a play on "Hades."
"Nemo in Patria" is a play on the title Odysseus takes after the cyclops adventure ("No one," Outis in Greek) -- and it corresponds to both Bloom and Stephen in Ulysses.

I will give you that "Crowhore" (with "rose" nearby) may well be a reference to Crowley -- I recall reading an academic essay published a long time ago that briefly mentioned Crowley in passing in reference to that line.

I must run now -- more later.


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 Anonymous
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Correction: the quote in my last post is from p. 227 not p.229

A technique Joyce uses frequently combines opposites in a single motif. For example, "buildung supra buildung" an allusion to alchemy and freemasonry that appears on p.4

This "marriage of opposites" is a technique Crowley recommends in the Book of Lies and elsewhere. He also represents this as the formula 2 = 0

Go in for scribenery with the satiety of arthurs in S.P.Q.R.ish
and inform to the old sniggering publicking press and its nation
of sheepcopers about the whole plighty troth between them,
malady of milady made melodi of malodi, she, the lalage of
lyonesses, and him, her knave arrant. To Wildrose La Gilligan from
Croppy Crowhore. For all within crystal range.
Ukalepe. Loathers' leave. Had Days. Nemo in Patria. The Luncher Out.
Skilly and Carubdish. A Wondering Wreck. From the
Mermaids' Tavern. Bullyfamous. Naughtsycalves. Mother of Misery.
Walpurgas Nackt.
Maleesh! He would bare to untired world of
Leimuncononnulstria (and what a strip poker globbtrottel they pairs would
looks!) how wholefallows, his guffer, the sabbatarian (might
faction split his beard!), he too had a great big oh in the
megafundum of his tomashunders and how her Lettyshape, his
gummer, that congealed sponsar, she had never cessed at waking
malters among the jemassons since the duft that meataxe delt
her made her microchasm as gap as down low. So they fished
in the kettle and fought free and if she bit his tailibout all hat
tiffin for thea. He would jused sit it all write down just as he
would jused set it up all writhefully rate in blotch and void,
yielding to no man in hymns ignorance,seeing how heartsilly
sorey he was, owning to the condrition of his bikestool. And,
reading off his fleshskin and writing with his quillbone, fillfull
ninequires with it for his auditers, Caxton and Pollock, a most
moraculous jeeremyhead sindbook for all the peoples, under the
presidency of the suchess of sceaunonsceau, a hadtobe heldin,

Revisiting this passage from p. 229 we see Joyce alluding to both the reception of Liber Legis and to the yellow journalism that would blacken AC's reputation. One of, or the most sublime writing related to Crowley combined with the sleaziest of journalism about him.

The fact the Joyce parodies Ulysses chapter titles while also suggesting Crowley could indicate that JJ identified his work with ACs.


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 Anonymous
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Pardon my spaciness and lack of attention... correction to the correction... it's from p.229 NOT p.227. Joyce appears obtuse enough to most without my confusing the issue further.


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Walterfive
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"zardoz" wrote:
Joyce appears obtuse enough to most without my confusing the issue further.

The *first* cognizant thing I've seen said in this topic. I've never understood Joyce. An old friend of mine who used the name Nora Barnacle as her on-air radio persona introduced me to Joyce and his pecadilloes 30-odd years ago...Robert Anton Wilson goes on about him for chapters in various of his books... I've read other commentary... I just don't "get" it. Anyone remember a book called "Anguish Languish"? I met the author 35 years ago. He said "The experiments ... and hundreds of similar ones conducted by SPAL [the Society for the Promotion of the Anguish Languish] show that an unbelievable number of English words, regardless of their usual meanings, can be substituted quite satisfactorily for others. When all the words in a given passage of English have been so replaced, the passage keeps its original meaning, but all the words have acquired new ones. A word that has received a new meaning has become a wart, and when all the words in the passage have become warts, the passage is no longer English; it's Anguish."

And that's what Joyce has always seemed like to me. Anguish. I can't see any difference between "Wants pawn term dare worsted ladle gull hoe lift wetter murder inner ladle cordage honor itch offer lodge, dock, florist. Disk ladle gull orphan worry putty ladle rat cluck wetter ladle rat hut, an fur disk raisin pimple colder Ladle Rat Rotten Hut" and anything that he wrote in Finnegan's Wake.

It's not gibberish, I get that, but it's wobbly words that convey several different directions of meaning, not neccesarily levels of meaning. I don't get the mystic zeal that people have for him-- how is "Croppy Crowhore" a reference to Crowley? It makes much more sense when people "translate" Nostradamus' quantrains using the "langue verte" or Green Language of the Birds...


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Los
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"Walterfive" wrote:
I don't get the mystic zeal that people have for him-- how is "Croppy Crowhore" a reference to Crowley? It makes much more sense when people "translate" Nostradamus' quantrains using the "langue verte" or Green Language of the Birds...

93, Walter,

The thing that's so appealing about the Wake, to me anyhow, is the simultaneously silly and serious attempt that Joyce makes at embodying the unconsciuos, associative thought process. The book is supposed to be a representation of dream consciousness, and like a dream, its every line (or almost every line) can be read in at least two opposite ways.

You might say that every sentence also contains its opposite, and that the text approximates a glimpse of supernal logic (to put this discussion in Qabalistic terms). Like I said, I'm working on an essay about the text for Thelemites interested in studying it.

So, for example, to quote my favorite example from the thread: "the oversear of the seize who cometh from the mighty deep and on the night of making Horuse to crihumph over his enemy" means two opposite things: 1) The cry (of the hawk) of triumph as Horus vanquishes the night and rises again over the seas, and 2) the cry of Humphrey (the protagonist) as he dry-humps in his "whore use" in the park and is "seized" in the Fall. (it also corresponds to HCE as the sea captain being "seized" in marriage, which is another version of the Fall)

So the mighty mythological event (of the rise) is identified with the sexual crime in the park (a type of the fall). The mundane = the mythological, and the Rise = the Fall. Each meaning dwells in the other, such that they cannot be separated.

It gets much more complicated when you consider that the novel is further meant to correspond with human history: the crime in the park is supposed to be the equivalent of the Fall from the Garden of Eden, the protagonist as sea captain signifies foreign invaders coming to Ireland, the Fall sets into motion the fleeing of the children to the "new world" to start the cycle over again, etc. There is so much more to say about this incredible novel.

Now, of course you're right that it's too easy to treat Joyce like Nostradamus and read whatever you'd like into the Wake. Fortunately, no one's making any post-diction supernatural nonsense out of his work (well, no one here is...you'd be surprised at some of the silly stuff I've seen....), and I try my best to argue against attributing too much intentionality to Joyce based on coincidental similarity of a few words.

93, 93/93


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 Anonymous
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Some people "get" Joyce and others don't, just like some "get" Crowley and most don't. Some who have heard or read Crowley but don't understand him or his work spend time and energy rationalizing why they don't as if, because they don't get him, there must be nothing to it at all.

Both Crowley and C.G. Jung called Joyce a genius.


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 Anonymous
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A possible Golden Dawn reference from p.98-99:

"Howforhim chirrupeth evereach bird! From golddawn glory to glowworm gleam."

Found this interesting word on p. 362:

"Like the bright lamps, Thamamahalla, yearin out
yearin. "

It's an undisputed fact that Joyce used to combine/mash words together as part of his language stylings. Thamamahalla contains within it the words: mama, aha, all, alla, al and la all of which resonate with Thelema. Aha, of course, also the title of a major poem by AC that outlines his system. The pronunciation of Thamamahalla even sounds a bit like Thelema.

If Joyce did intend to reference Thelema with Thamamahalla then the very next sentence appears prescient or maybe just wishful thinking on his part:

"Auspicably suspectable but in expectancy of respectableness."


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Los
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"zardoz" wrote:
A possible Golden Dawn reference from p.98-99:

"Howforhim chirrupeth evereach bird! From golddawn glory to glowworm gleam."

I agree that golddawn is a reference to the Golden Dawn (fweet.org lists it as such, and it's certain that Joyce knew about the Golden Dawn, for its connection to Yeats if in no other way).

If I wanted to be really out there, I'd suggest that "glowworm" might be a reference to the chapter 11 in the Book of Lies, "The Glow Worm." Notice the HCE in the above sentence: we might say that HCE is evolving (ever-reaching, in addition to "ever each") from the Golden Dawn system to the Thelemic system (HCE is of course the Phoenix bird...in Phoenix Park, Dublin).

Of course, I think that the connection of "glowworm" to the Book of Lies is simply a happy coincidence -- for Joyce, this word has more to do with the "gloam" or gloom of dusk and the obvious phallic implications (well, Crowley was almost certainly going for the latter as well).

As for your other quote:
"Like the bright lamps, Thamamahalla, yearin out yearin. "

In the first place, the word reminds me of a play on "Valhalla" more than anything else. In the second place, you can check on fweet.org: the word is primarily a reference to Thomas Moore's Irish Melodies. "Thamma Halla" is the subtitle of "Erin, Oh Erin," which addresses the inextinguishable fire of St. Brigid at Kildare -- hence its relevance to the "bright lamps" pertaining to ALP in that passage.

The idea expressed in that song, that the spirit survives through sorrow and adversity, resonates nicely with the entirety of Finnegans Wake, doesn't it?


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 Anonymous
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"Los" wrote:
The idea expressed in that song, that the spirit survives through sorrow and adversity, resonates nicely with the entirety of Finnegans Wake, doesn't it?

Yes, and it resonates nicely with Thelema as well.

Of course, I think that the connection of "glowworm" to the Book of Lies is simply a happy coincidence -- for Joyce, this word has more to do with the "gloam" or gloom of dusk and the obvious phallic implications (well, Crowley was almost certainly going for the latter as well).

A remarkable "coincidence" indeed. Glowworm isn't a very common word.

I like the Valhalla, Thelema conflation.

"Like the bright lamps, Thamamahalla, yearin out yearin. "

"yearin" suggests "yearning" which relates to both Will and Invocation. "yearin (yearning) out" could indicate ch 23 from the Book of Lies.
"yearin out yearin" also reminds me of the Beatles lyrics: " your inside is out when your outside is in, your outside is in when your inside is out" which sounds like a condition or side effect of the initiatory process.


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Sonofthoth
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One excerpt from page 255 of F.W. is the following:

"Why wilt thou erewaken him from his earth, O summonor-
other: he is weatherbitten from the dusts of ages? The hour of his
closing hies to hand; the tocsin that shall claxonise his ware-
abouts. If one who remembered his webgoods and tealofts were
to ask of a hooper for whose it was the storks were quitting
Aquileyria, this trundler would not wot; if other who joined faith
when his depth charge bombed our barrel spillway were to ---!"

I haven't really tried to unpackage it but it strikes me whenever I read it


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Sonofthoth
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Another interesting one: (pg 194)

"it is to you, firstborn and firstfruit of woe, to
me, branded sheep, pick of the wasterpaperbaskel, by the
tremours of Thundery and Ulerin's dogstar, you alone, wind-
blasted tree of the knowledge of beautiful andevil, ay, clothed
upon with the metuor and shimmering like the horescens, astro-
glodynamonologos, the child of Nilfit's father, blzb, to me
unseen blusher in an obscene coalhole, the cubilibum of your
secret sigh, dweller in the downandoutermost where voice only
of the dead may come, because ye left from me, because ye
laughed on me, because, O me lonly son, ye are forgetting me!"


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