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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/05/2007 9:22 pm  

Does Freemasonry see Thelema has a schism of its practices? Would a Thelemite feel welcome in a masonic temple? Would the grip of the Lions Paw be extended to a Thelemite? Although Crowley was an initiated freemason it seems this is downplayed by masonic fraternites.

Can a fraternal bridge be built between both paths ? Or does Liber AL pose a problem to Masonry?


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
Owner and Editor Admin
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 5322
22/05/2007 10:18 pm  
"zain" wrote:
Crowley was an initiated freemason

You do know that things aren't quite as simple as you suggest, don't you?

I just thought it might be worth clarifying that before this thread dives straight into Liber AL as Volume of Sacred Law territory...

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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AMTh
 AMTh
(@ameth441)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 85
22/05/2007 10:32 pm  

93 Zain.

When I took my obligations in my Masonic Lodge, I received permission to use the B.O.T.Law as my Holy Book. The lodge Master had heard a little about Crowley, the typical media crap, i loaned him Liber Al, the Holy Books, Liber Aleph, and Collected works vol. 1. He now has an appreciation for Crowley and Thelema, and I donated several Crowley books to our Lodge Library, that seem to get checked out quite often. I feel totally welcome in my Masonic Lodge as a Thelemite, and several of the Masonic Lodge Brothers are attending an upcoming event, which a Solomonaic Magick Lodge in London I belong to is hosting, Lon DuQuette will be speaking about several topics including Tarot, Qaballa, Magick, and Masonry, and there seems to be a genuine interest coming from the Masonic Bretheren who will be attending. The English Masons do seem to downplay Crowley's Membership by saying his "initiation was not valid, or recognized" or some such statement, but it most certainly was. Crowley had a 33 Degree Scottish Rite Certificate that was issued in London, in October 1910 by the Supreme Council of the Scottish Rite, I also have a copy of a letter written 23 of july 1981, by the Grand Secretary General of the Supreme Council, stating that "John Yarker was expelled from the Scottish Rite on the 30th of November, 1870, so it follows that Crowley's Initiation was irregular". There seems to be a discrepancy somewhere, as i was under the impression Crowley was initiated into the Scottish Rite 33 degree by Don Jesus Medina, in Mexico, Where does Yarker and the English Supreme Council come into all this?

Any answers?

93 93/93

Chris


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/05/2007 10:39 pm  
"zain" wrote:
Does Freemasonry see Thelema has a schism of its practices?

To my knowledge, no.

Would a Thelemite feel welcome in a masonic temple?

To my knowledge, yes.

Would the grip of the Lions Paw be extended to a Thelemite?

To my knowledge, yes.

Although Crowley was an initiated freemason it seems this is downplayed by masonic fraternites.

Probably because his 33rd degree attainment wasn't recognized by the grand lodge?

Can a fraternal bridge be built between both paths ? Or does Liber AL pose a problem to Masonry?

What bridge needs to be built? They can intertwine, be one, or support each other just fine. Lon DuQuette and the poster above are good examples of this. Thelema is influenced by Masonic philosophy, as is OTO (obviously) - it seems obvious that Masons will accept Thelemites but also that each Thelemite is different, an individual (just like Masons, really). An asshole Thelemite might not be accepted just like an asshole gardener... it doesn't matter to Masons if you follow by their rules.

65 & 210,
111-418


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RuneLogIX
(@runelogix)
Magister
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 369
22/05/2007 10:41 pm  

There are Thelemites who are both OTO and Freemasons. A high ranking cOTO man holds at least the 32 degree. In the American Scottish Rite anyway the whole 32 degrees are bestowed on a weekend retreat and you watch the rituals (and repeat the oaths) rather than enact in them yourself. The first three degrees (which are properly speaking, _the only_ degrees of Freemasonry) are widely available in print however I've known about a half dozen members over the years, even helping at the local lodge charity events, all of who swear that the degrees have made them a better person. Just remember that about 97% of the members are old school Christians and don't think too kindly to either Crowley or the Rite of Memphis. Political and religious discussions however are banned (in the American Grand Lodge jurisdiction). Some of the younger Freemasons (that is, the members in their forties, lol) hold liberal views about other religions just fine. On the whole Freemasonry is going through a huge decline but this has happened in previous generations besides this one. However if you asked a lodge secretary about if a Thelemite would be welcome he would have to say that members are allowed to be a member of any religion whatsoever as long as they believe in a Supreme Being. Hope that answers your question, theres more I could prattle on about but I'll stop myself.

Whither Liber Al poses a problem to joining the Masons is up to you 😉

Force and Fire is not metaphorical. In Prophetes Veritas Venit.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
23/05/2007 2:02 am  

The standing of Thelema with mainstream freemasonry is a difficult problem. Freemasons promise to accept other masons no matter what their religion. However Al III with its curses on other faiths is unacceptable to some Masons. The orthodox masons who are the ones with the money, power and membership. They far outdistance all the other groups in real power and influence in the World.
Obviously you cannot be a member of this group if you are female because it is a strict Fraternity, their attempts to indocuce co-masonry, that is allow women to join fell by the way a long time ago for the obvious reason that you cannot have a serious brotherhood if one of the brothers has run off with your wife etc.
Best Wishes Robert


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
23/05/2007 5:52 am  
"rabrazier" wrote:
The standing of Thelema with mainstream freemasonry is a difficult problem. Freemasons promise to accept other masons no matter what their religion. However Al III with its curses on other faiths is unacceptable to some Masons. The orthodox masons who are the ones with the money, power and membership. They far outdistance all the other groups in real power and influence in the World.
Obviously you cannot be a member of this group if you are female because it is a strict Fraternity, their attempts to indocuce co-masonry, that is allow women to join fell by the way a long time ago for the obvious reason that you cannot have a serious brotherhood if one of the brothers has run off with your wife etc.
Best Wishes Robert

This is a good point - Masons only accept men and Thelemites accept both men and women because, of course, every man and every woman is a star.

The curses in AL III I dont think should be taken offense at (even though it surely looks offensive at first). Crowley admits Hinduism (“the Indian”), Buddhism, Confucianism (“Mongol”) or perhaps Taoism, and Jewish Qabalah (“Din”) are, in theory, “metaphysically and mystically comprehensive enough to assure… the possession of much truth.” He notes that these traditions have their flesh attacked rather than their eyes, like Jesus, who represents Christianity, and Mohammed, who represents Islam. This indicates that “the metaphysics, or point of view, is correct… but the practice imperfect.” Essentially, Crowley is saying that there are many pretenders and false gurus in the practice of these traditions. To be true, every single tradition has its share of extremists and charlatans; there are always a few people that can give an ideology a bad name. Unfortunately, Thelema is not excluded from this. Earlier in Liber AL vel Legis it is said, “…Aum! All words are sacred and all prophets true; save only that they understand a little...” (AL I:56). Crowley comments succinctly on this line saying, “All religions have some truth. We possess all intellectual truth, and some, not all, mystic truth."

We can clearly see that Liber AL does not condemn all other past religions, philosophies, truths, rituals, etc. Using common sense we can understand that the traditions of the past, especially those named in AL III:49-54, contain some truths and insights but also much falsity, obscurity, and dogma. Thelema distinguishes itself from the rest of these traditions by holding a scientific attitude toward phenomena. If we discover facts in the world that contradict our interpretations of Liber AL vel Legis, it is apparent that one must either acknowledge the interpretation of the line is incorrect or the line itself is incorrect and must be superseded by current knowledge. We must adapt our point-of-view to the facts, not the facts to our point-of-view.

This scientific attitude in Thelema is precisely what is being implied in AL III:49-54. In “Antecedents of Thelema,” an unfinished essay published in The Revival of Magick, Crowley asserts, “Thelema is Magick, and Magick is Science, the antithesis of the religious hypothesis. [Also, see The Book of the Law, III:49-54.]” Crowley asserts that Thelema is “the antithesis of the religious hypothesis” and then cites the exact lines that curse other religions. This cursing by Horus of all these religious traditions is now understood to be against their religious theories and dogmatism. Further, Crowley explains, “It is particularly to be noted that Magick, so often mixed up in the popular idea of a religion, has nothing to do with it. It is, in fact, the exact opposite of religion; it is, even more than Physical Science, its irreconcilable enemy.”

About Masons that have power... this is true for some, but Masonry has such a long and intricate tradition that it is hard to compare to Thelema in the sense of membership, longevity, etc. The internet with sites liek LAShTAL and many many others is essentially bringing on another large interest in Thelema, and we should look forward with optimism to the future but... Thelema is much more individualistic than Masonry - There is now law beyond Do what thou wilt. You won't find anything near that in Masonry unless it means Do what God wills. It seems to be a double-edged sword: for a tradition to flourish, a strong society (not Magical or Fraternal society)... if people are saying you can interpret Liber AL how you want, not to talk about Liber AL and establish some kind of foundation then there will be no centralized society beyond the OTOs that claim some kind of lineage (which I am not saying is good or bad...)

65 & 210,
111-418


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frater_cug
(@frater_cug)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 73
23/05/2007 6:12 am  

Here is an article by Martin P. Starr (who is incidental a Mason and the current General Secretary of the Scottish Rite Research Society.) about Crowley And Masonry.

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/aqc/crowley.html

An interesting tidbit...

Grand Loge de France (Anglo-Saxon Lodge No. 343 was Crowley's Lodge) eventually was recognized so Crowley may in fact became an "official" Freemason retroactively.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
23/05/2007 6:47 am  
"frater_cug" wrote:
Here is an article by Martin P. Starr (who is incidental a Mason and the current General Secretary of the Scottish Rite Research Society.) about Crowley And Masonry.

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/aqc/crowley.html

An interesting tidbit...

Grand Loge de France (Anglo-Saxon Lodge No. 343 was Crowley's Lodge) eventually was recognized so Crowley may in fact became an "official" Freemason retroactively.

Great article, thanks


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
10/07/2007 8:04 pm  

Most of the members of the local OTO lodge are also 32nd and 33rd degree Freemasons. One of the 32nd Masons showed me a series of old documents stored in a Philathes vault, proving that Crowley was indeed a regular Mason and 33rd A.A.S.R., however, he added that it is never disclosed to most masons (much like being a 33rd), as it would cast a dark shadow over the public image of the Lodge.

Depending on the locale however, you may wish to hide your associations with the occult before petitioning the lodge for membership. In some areas a given lodge may be entirely Christian, aside from occasional visitors.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4021
10/07/2007 8:25 pm  
"Jonathan" wrote:
Most of the members of the local OTO lodge are also 32nd and 33rd degree Freemasons. One of the 32nd Masons showed me a series of old documents stored in a Philathes vault, proving that Crowley was indeed a regular Mason and 33rd A.A.S.R., however, he added that it is never disclosed to most masons (much like being a 33rd), as it would cast a dark shadow over the public image of the Lodge.

Depending on the locale however, you may wish to hide your associations with the occult before petitioning the lodge for membership. In some areas a given lodge may be entirely Christian, aside from occasional visitors.

Very interesting to hear, Jonathan. Where is your local OTO lodge?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
10/07/2007 9:13 pm  

I was active in an Albion charted Oasis and later Lodge, I held the IX and XI degrees, it's not pertinent where they were located. Frankly, they have had quite a bit of pestering over the years, several lawsuits and other troubles including an attempted sting, and I do not wish to create more problems. Prior I was Ur-O.T.O., but I demitted a few years ago. I was also in the Astrum Argentium, London lineage, I demitted from that was well, due to incompatibilities between it and my loyalties with my mentor. Don't ask me my attained grade, I won't tell. 😉 I do however maintain limited contact with members of both Caliphate and Albion chartered lodges, that run into problems.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4021
10/07/2007 10:00 pm  
"Jonathan" wrote:
I was active in an Albion charted Oasis and later Lodge, I held the IX and XI degrees, it's not pertinent where they were located. Frankly, they have had quite a bit of pestering over the years, several lawsuits and other troubles including an attempted sting, and I do not wish to create more problems. Prior I was Ur-O.T.O., but I demitted a few years ago. I was also in the Astrum Argentium, London lineage, I demitted from that was well, due to incompatibilities between it and my loyalties with my mentor. Don't ask me my attained grade, I won't tell. 😉 I do however maintain limited contact with members of both Caliphate and Albion chartered lodges, that run into problems.

I wouldn't dream of asking you your grade; decorousness is next to godliness, after all. However, you mentioned some extremely interesting papers being retained by some lodge, and I was curious as to where they might be.

When you say "Albion", I wonder if you are you referring to the UK Caliphate O.T.O. body, or to the Albion O.T.O.?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
10/07/2007 10:15 pm  

The Albion O.T.O.

As for the papers, somewhere in America, California and another set in Georgia I believe. I'll try and track the person down again, but he is a politician and very busy, it's not likely I would be able to find him in a short time. I wouldn't mind having some scans of the documents myself.


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