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Friedrich Nietzsche and Aleister Crowley

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hadgigegenraum
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@david-dom-lemieux 

LOL....and i thought you were a Fred Phan.. Anyways the problem with the chorus is that they are all dead, having been fact checked into oblivion...

BTW nothing replaces Colin Wilson...not even his ghost!


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

@david-dom-lemieux 

LOL....and i thought you were a Fred Phan.. Anyways the problem with the chorus is that they are all dead, having been fact checked into oblivion...

I don't get it, what?  Are you genuinely answering my question? 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Maybe we should ditch the Colin Wilson section of the forum and replace it with a Nietzsche section.

Or not.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @ignant666

Or not.

Well there's one nay. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

[O]ne nay.

And, of course, only one "yea" thus far. Assuming you to be one. Your recent N-Stud obsession does not seem to be widely shared.

And, as you may have noticed, this is not a democratic polis, but rather a benign dictatorship.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @ignant666
Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

[O]ne nay.

And, of course, only one "yea" thus far. Assuming you to be one. Your recent N-Stud obsession does not seem to be widely shared.

And, as you may have noticed, this is not a democratic polis, but rather a benign dictatorship.

Some politician you are, everyone here digs Fred the Dweeb, makes sense as their main man Crowley did too. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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hadgigegenraum
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@david-dom-lemieux 

Dear David,

I am not doming you if you are not aware of the function of the chorus in classical tragedy, but you are not alone...i am sure, and even on this thread whatever you think of Phred. 

So a good place to understand the function of the chorus is and thus I quote a note that heads a translation of Schiller's essay "On the Employment of The Chorus in Tragedy."

https://archive.schillerinstitute.com/fid_91-96/931_chorus_trag.html#related

"THIS WORK WAS WRITTEN AS THE Prologue to Schiller's play, The Bride of Messina, or, The Hostile Brothers, which was completed on February 1, and first performed in the Weimar theater on March 19, 1803. In writing this play, Schiller was influenced by his study of the Classical Greek tragedies of Aeschylus and Sophocles to re-introduce the ancient device of the chorus.

The significance of this prologue, however, is not its discussion of the chorus per se, but rather its discussion of the chorus from the standpoint of Schiller's concept of tragedy. As in his other writings on this subject, Schiller stresses that the purpose of tragedy is to ennoble the audience by providing it with the highest enjoyment—freedom of the mind. True art does not aim to transpose a person into a merely momentary dream of freedom, but rather to make him truly free. To achieve such freedom, the artist must not merely imitate nature, but rather achieve mastery over it.

Schiller's discussion of the chorus in this piece should therefore be seen in the context of Lyndon LaRouche's "On the Subject of Metaphor" published in Fidelio,Vol. I, No. 3 (Fall 1992). Schiller explicitly polemicizes against French symbolism, while at the same time describing his re-introduction of the chorus as a declaration of war on naturalism in art."

Awaiting incoming tomatoes from the usual sources....or other relative to my quips about Aynus Rand...

Have Fun

HG


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

@david-dom-lemieux 

Dear David,

I am not doming you if you are not aware of the function of the chorus in classical tragedy, but you are not alone...i am sure, and even on this thread whatever you think of Phred. 

So a good place to understand the function of the chorus is and thus I quote a note that heads a translation of Schiller's essay "On the Employment of The Chorus in Tragedy."

 

Schiller used music? Nietzsche was discussing Wagner's operas as reigniting the Tragedians not Schiller's poetry.   No?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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hadgigegenraum
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@david-dom-lemieux 

Thanks.....Schiller's aesthetics had an important influence of Nietzsche...here is an interesting article found in relation to your query...

https://academic.oup.com/monist/article/102/3/331/5499219


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

@david-dom-lemieux 

Thanks.....Schiller's aesthetics had an important influence of Nietzsche...here is an interesting article found in relation to your query...

https://academic.oup.com/monist/article/102/3/331/5499219

Im not really interested in Schiller presently but thanks I may check it out sometime.  Nietzsche said Wagner was the new Aeschylus, opera, dramatic opera about trolls, God's and heroes and technically speaking with the orchestra hidden in the pit.  Nietzsche's theory about the solution to the enigma of the Chorus I mentioned recently came about as he compared (then) current affairs (Prussian war mongering) with Aeschylus era Greece.  Amazing stuff..

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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hadgigegenraum
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@david-dom-lemieux 

what are you reading?


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Shiva
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

everyone here digs Fred the Dweeb

?   This appears to be a false statement.

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

@david-dom-lemieux 

what are you reading?

Most of Nietzsche's books,  Nietzsche for beginners  by Marc Sautet, Writers and Readers Publsihing Inc,  Plato's The Republic,  any documentary on Wagnerlikewise on the Theatre of Ancient Greece,  Aristotle's Syllogisms, Geometry, Dr Sugrue's youtube channel lots of lectures here including  Nietzsche's Critique of Christianity: The Genealogy of Morals - YouTube

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Most of Nietzsche's books

Do you have any favourites, david?


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @michael-staley
Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Most of Nietzsche's books

Do you have any favourites, david?

Can we 'enjoy' Nietzsche? Isn't it like asking which Wes Craven horror movie do you enjoy?  The one about the child-killer phantom who terrorises teens in their nightmares or the one about the serial killer with the cape  and the creepy Ghost mask?  Nietzsche presents the horrible notion that only the weak invent the metaphysical and humans were and are only ever literally predatory animals and victims like any other creature theerfore good and evil don't exist and neither does divine retribution. That's a bit unsettling.

The least psychopathic is his first book The Birth of Tragedy which is the case for optimism and a celebration of the Tragedians.  Maybe this is related to initiation and the ego death that Crowley aimed for was what Nietzsche and the Greeks classed as 'The Dionysian'.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

psychopathic

There lots of Nietzsche that I enjoy – principally Zarathustra which I find beautiful and inspiring, and the threads of optimism running through books such as The Dawn, Human, All Too Human, and The Gay Science.

 

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

psychopathic

So when it comes to it, there's not so much difference between ignant and yourself concerning Nietzsche as these debates /clashes between you and he might at first sight suggest. Oh well, another idol has feet of clay: you, too, are "human, all too human". Never mind: I'll pick myself up, dust myself down, and continue the search.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @michael-staley

psychopathic

So when it comes to it, there's not so much difference between ignant and yourself concerning Nietzsche as these debates /clashes between you and he might at first sight suggest. 

Well are you beyond good and evil? Was  Plato a coward for proposing the existence of metaphysical realms? Was Machiavelli right on?  Should we throw criminals to starving lions, televise it and all pick up the popcorn and watch?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Well are you beyond good and evil? Was  Plato a coward for proposing the existence of metaphysical realms? Was Machiavelli right on?  Should we throw criminals to starving lions, televise it and all pick up the popcorn and watch?

Wake me up when you have something to say other than rhetorical crap. I'll not hold my breath.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @michael-staley
Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Well are you beyond good and evil? Was  Plato a coward for proposing the existence of metaphysical realms? Was Machiavelli right on?  Should we throw criminals to starving lions, televise it and all pick up the popcorn and watch?

Wake me up when you have something to say other than rhetorical crap. I'll not hold my breath.

Huh? What's brought that on?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

What's brought that on?

He specified "rhetorical crap," which means you're posting quoted or parafrazed common stuff (rhetoric).

I'm so busy and frazzled this morn, chopping water, etc, that I didn't have time to analyze the content, so my opinion would just be a hazarded guess.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

What's brought that on?

He specified "rhetorical crap," which means you're posting quoted or parafrazed common stuff (rhetoric).

 

He's behaving like a dumb 'Might is Right' Sophist, I hope it's British irony.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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david- Surely British universities must have adult education/continuing education programs?

I enrolled in one (at New York University) when i was 27. I originally enrolled to get student loan $ to use as capital to expand my drug-dealing business, but i was seduced by the content of my courses into taking it seriously.

As a person who is interested in philosophy, you should consider signing up for an intro to philosophy course (at least) at the nearest university that offers such programs. It might be free, or very cheap, and if it costs money, you will find it money well spent.

There are benefits to studying with smart people, who have studied with smart people (who have studied with smart people, lather, rinse, repeat, on back to the dawn of the academic system in the late middle ages), and further benefits to studying with others at your own level. AC modeled the A.'. A.'. "each one teach one" teaching system in part on his Cambridge tutorials.

You often remind me of smart but alienated undergrads who would try to troll my classes when i was teaching. Please seriously give some thought to getting some higher dedication, however much this suggestion raises all sorts of defensive backlash. You would dig it, you would benefit from it, others would benefit from you being there.


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Huh? What's brought that on?

Sorry if  I misinterpreted you, David, leading to my abruptness. It's an easy thing to do when reading online material.


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ignant666
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Posted by: @ignant666

higher dedication

A phone-induced, yet clearly benign, & correct, typo.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @ignant666

at the nearest university

Surely, such an undertaking can be undertaken online, as well. (saves gas or bike wear & tear).

 


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ignant666
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Posted by: @shiva

Surely, such an undertaking can be undertaken online

Not, i think, a substitute for the old-fashioned "in-person" method, but most likely better than reading on one's own.

At least there would be the element of a group of equally-befuddled students, and a few fellow-students who "get it" faster and can help others along, and supervision by a "sherpa" who has traversed these same slopes earlier, and been trained by other climbers, and who (we hope) has an understanding of how to get folks up the hill, from years of doing that every day as a job

Teaching is a lot like being a singer, or an actor doing live theater, or a stand-up comedian. I used to call my teaching method "stand-up tragedy". Looking the audience in the eye, and seeing if they are following, if they are with me, is very important, at least to the way i used to work. I would guess a comparable difference might be that between touching, and seeing, a patient, as opposed to looking at online images of them. But you (Shiva) have taught a lot of things, and almost certainly get my point.

The best things a student can do are a few years of psychotherapy//psychoanalysis with a smart person, studying hard texts and hard ideas in a communal setting with smart people, and hard physical disciplines, like hard physical work, martial arts etc.

Do things that are very hard and seem untenable, or barely possible; keep increasing the dose.

Scare the fuck out of yourself from time to time. When/if you survive, your possibilities will be larger. If not, better luck next incarnation.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @ignant666

david- Surely British universities must have adult education/continuing education programs?

I enrolled in one (at New York University) when i was 27. I originally enrolled to get student loan $ to use as capital to expand my drug-dealing business, but i was seduced by the content of my courses into taking it seriously.

As a person who is interested in philosophy, you should consider signing up for an intro to philosophy course (at least) at the nearest university that offers such programs. It might be free, or very cheap, and if it costs money, you will find it money well spent.

Four possible answers ; 

a) Baj-hes? Baj-hes? Me no need no stinkin' baj-hes!! 

b) Don't you try
Don 't you try to tell me what to do
Everybody's always tryin to tell me
What to do

c) Look, if you think I was talking crap then highlight the crap.

d) Thankyou, great advice.  

  Posted by: @michael-staley  Sorry if  I misinterpreted you, David, leading to my abruptness. It's an easy thing to do when reading online material.

Cool, I wasn't offended anyway.  Is there some reason why you're not answering the question(s) though?  Just curious.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Four possible answers ; 

a) I have not suggested you get any "badges", aka degrees, but simply that you consider doing a thing you obviously like to do, in a way of doing that thing that has been useful to many, for hundreds of years. If you get good enough at it, degrees may indeed result. Like the occult kind, academic degrees are recognitions of attainment. It is easier to get them by zealous work done with love of that work than by "lust of result".

b) I don't see the connection with the lyric you quote. "Raw power" with no technique ain't gonna get it, son. In any case, i am not sure how useful seeking intellectual guidance from a song about heroin will be. Stick with the first two Stooges albums before they got strung out on dope for spiritual guidance, and you will be better off. "Search And Destroy" is OK though in that regard.

c) No, i think you are energized by discussing this stuff, and love this stuff, and ought to pursue that love more seriously than you have yet done. Among others that share that love unlike 9/10 in the pub, at work, or even here. It is difficult to get most students to do the  assigned reading, let along think about it, let alone actually have something they want to say about what they have read ( if they did). You already ar reading the shit, thinking about it, and have  things to say about what you read- do you have any idea how much faculty wish they had more students like you?

d) You're welcome.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

if you think I was talking crap then highlight the crap.

This is a fair enough statement and challenge, in the Spirit of Thelema, I have not necessarily detected any specific Shine in your Ola. I think the difficulty (with krany Staley and Ignantus) might lie in your presentation of your ideas, and perhaps the logic you apply, which is not the logic of the philosophical tradition, which is why the pesky Ignant wants you to go to the higher reeducation indoctrination center.

I agree with him that butt on the chair in the classroom mode is better than butt on the computer chair, especially in courses of higher (abstract) thinking.

Anyway, Ignant has been trying to get you to see something about logic and higher thinking since your early daze in the threads. Then he sort'a gave up, only poking you with a semi-sharp stick from time to time. But now, recently, even by his own self-confession in writing (typing), he has been drawn out into critical thinking mode in order to counter-act what he might call erroneous applications and conclusions.

You may have to take him to The Octagon of Geburah, now that Toad has graciously recinded his thrust and retrieved his gauntlet.

Posted by: @ignant666

It is difficult to get most students to do the  assigned reading,

I never came across this problem in A.'.A.'. students. However, students failing to do the work is a different deal. If the A.'.A.'. (curriculum) were an Institution of Higher Ed on the Dept of Ed approved list for getting financial aid, said approval would be rescinded as schools must maintain less than a 20% drop-out rate.

 


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hadgigegenraum
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Back on topic....Crowley and Nietzsche

(but first I had the same question for David as Michael Staley's, as it would have been nice to know which books of Nietzsche's you have read or were reading, rather bringing forth a sentence such as "Most of Nietzsche's books,  Nietzsche for beginners  by Marc Sautet..." which when I first read that, my mind had nothing to grasp on to other than Nietzsche for Beginners....a philosophy course is good, Ignant666's suggestion, in that it forces one to write in a manner that is beyond blurbs in a chat room, but it should be noted that Nietzsche's aphoristic style in later years was a sort of revolution itself against academia, to which Crowley was certainly not academic, but both had the chops to transcend the academy....though of course Crowley would join a different sort of academy and as a correspondence course...)

So back on topic, or content...So I decided to look at an old favorite, Norman O. Brown's Life Against Death where there are many references to Nietzsche, and thus i will quote that which is relevant to Liber Legis!

   "In contrast to Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, because he  envisage the possibility of Superman, can affirm life and therefore death: "What has become perfect, all that is ripe-wants to die" Nietzsche's explanation shows how instinctual repression creates the flight away from death, how the flight from death creates both religion and immortality and the economic institution of hereditary property: "Alll that is unripe wants to live. All that suffers wants to live, that it may become die and joyous" pg 107 LAD

Brown then later writes, after a quote from John Maynard keynes, that

  "Nietzsche's perfection, which is unrepressed life, (joy), wants eternity, but also wants to die. Eternity is therefore a way of envisaging mankind's neurotic obsession with past and future; it is a way of living in the present, but also a way of dying.  Hence the ultimate defect of all heavens and immortality beyond the grave is that there is no death; by this token such visions betray their connection with repression of life." pg 108 LAD

So the answer to II.76 after II, 75 concerning longing for death.....'the smell of ripe rotting fruit as letters and numbers strewn and staining the page'....

HG

 


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toadstoolwe
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Nietzsche's view on Buddhism was expressed this way: "Buddhism is the only genuinely positive religion to be encountered" I am pretty certain Crowley would have agreed with that observation. 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @toadstoolwe

"Buddhism is the only genuinely positive religion to be encountered"

Sure. I would say that any religion is genuine and positive - if one examines the core principles and sticks to them ... avoiding subsequently-added rules  like dogmas, procedures, tithes, obediences ... all the power andpolitical crap.

Posted by: @toadstoolwe

I am pretty certain ...

Here you go, setting yourself up for another hazing. "Pretty certain" implies a possibility of doubt. Get your mind together, man.

Posted by: @toadstoolwe

... Crowley would have agreed with that observation [about "only genuinely positive"]. 

Crowley was confused on Buddhism. Proof ...

1) "Offended my sensibilities as a Buddhist."

2) "With my claws I tear out the flesh of the Indian and the Buddhist, Mongol and Din."

3) "Life may have been too much for Buddha, but it's too tame for me."

Any quotes are merely para-phased and may not reflect the exactly original terminology.

P.S. (4) The only "religion" approaching  genuine positivity, in AC's repeated opinion, was Taoism.

 


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Is there some reason why you're not answering the question(s) though? 

Yes. They are of no interest to me.


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @shiva

with krany Staley

I might indeed by krany. I don't, though, know what it means. Can't find it in my online dictionary of choice.


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toadstoolwe
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@shiva That's Crowley just beating his chest and pronouncing that he is "mad, bad, and dangerous to know" He got into those moods from to time.  Overall I would say (You notice my newfound courage thanks to your admonishment) That Crowley admired Gautama Buddha, because he alluded to him quite often.  As well as Buddhist practice and theology.


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hadgigegenraum
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I have a follow up post to my post above, that references Norman O.Brown relative to Nietzsche the joy of the ripe ready to die, that is found in the "Justice and injustice Thelema" thread concurrent with this one and susceptible to cross pollination of ideas...


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Shiva
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Posted by: @michael-staley

I might indeed by krany. I don't, though, know what it means

I think krank means "ill" in German. Anglo-gringos change it to crank(y), implying "irritated."

Yes, your brief inserts appear to be issued in irritation. Let's look at it this way: Ignant swore off trying to attain external equilibrium (an impossible task, you know, none shall be elevated or demoted), but felt impelled/compelled to try again when too much illusion began to creep in. He has not become demonstrably irritated or kranky, but instead takes the position of gradfatherly/uncle-like mentor and recommends further real-time development in the Philosophical tradition ... which earned 3 rebuffs and 1 gratuity. At 3|1, it will be up for betting if he becomes kranky.

GG seems to ride along on the same wavinglength, and he communicates, philosophically, properly with David, arguing points so gently, usually, and not pointing out false logic, false statements, fake news, or otherwise any signs of krank.

I, myself, have not gotten too deeply into the Philo discussion, for it is not an interesting realm to me, except that Philosophy is the enemy of Magick. But I persevere in posting - mostly things that would make another person kranky, but I try to keep it humorous if possible in order to avoid the dreaded WTF? mode.

It is my profession opinion that you, kranky Staley, are no more kranked than your peers, that you have held back in order to avoid disturbing your mind (further), but that you were compelled/propelled/impelled [choose one] to ent the dreaded WTF? mode, even if you didn't use that cipher, and re-enter the zone of misunderstanding.

My professional opinion concludes with this conclusive conclusion: The patient has no idea what point the krany posters are trying to say (for years). You see, this is a Case History of archetypal or causal significance.

P.S. Krany  is a modified form of kranky that appears when one does not proof their lingo before pushing ADD REPLY, thus leading to the ever-encroaching realm of misunderstanding and mistrust.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @toadstoolwe

pronouncing that he is "mad, bad, and dangerous to know"

This appears to be an accurate description. It's nice when he drops the various assumed personae, and let's his true inner child shine on ...

Posted by: @toadstoolwe

Crowley admired Gautama Buddha, because he alluded to him quite often.

He lost his way from Christianity, on purpose, by adopting Buddhism . That adoption was fostered by Bennett, but shaken in The Cairo Reception. But yes, and so, he mentions Buddhism, along with Christianity, Islam, Taoism, and Hebrewism ... quite often. Did he "admire" the founders? Well, yeah, as fellow Magi, 9=2 (sort of).

He did not dwell on the Vishu-Gita, the Hermetic-Alchemical arcanum, or the military rites of progress,
but he paid them their due
on a random page or two.

It's fun to study these other approaches. One can even join them, if the path of rugged individuality combined with subservience to one's higher nature is too much to bare.

Otherwise, they all conflict at some one (or more) level (or many). They only have one solid common ground. In Dzogchen, it's interestingly called the ground, or the base. It is nothing, which is the source of all this wonderful diversity.

 


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toadstoolwe
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@shiva You have the soul of a poet, as if you didn't know it.  Just like Crowley you spin your yarn, let others be darned!  I think I shall never see, a guru as wise as thee.  My apologizes to you others.  Let us all be Thelemic brothers!

I hope you are amused, if not a little irritated.


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @shiva

It is my profession opinion

An interesting analysis, some of it spot-on or not a million miles from it. Thank you.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva

I, myself, have not gotten too deeply into the Philo discussion, for it is not an interesting realm to me, except that Philosophy is the enemy of Magick. 

Not to pontificate (like Howard Johnson in the Blazing Saddles movie) but Nietzsche claimed that he came to destroy philosophy.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @toadstoolwe

I think I shall never see,
a guru as wise as thee. 

No, no, I gave all that up. Besides, I was never a Guru to anyone. Gu-ru means "light and dark." Think about that. Then stop thinking.

Posted by: @toadstoolwe

Let us all be Thelemic brothers!

I wonder if katrice is into brotherhoods.

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Nietzsche claimed that he came to destroy philosophy.

This is an interesting claim, under the circumstances. That is, he became a famous philosopher, a "leader of a school of thought." But he skipped 6=5, and ruined any chances at 5=6 by being anti-metaphysics and (apparently) anti-intermediate principle (HGA, Anima, etc).

This is a good question from me, who has a faint image of Nietzsche, but have read nothing but passages from Zarathustra, who Spoke, to you, who have read lots of his books ... Did he entertain any thoughts on the validity of the (any) intermediate principle?

Also, Did he entertain any thoughts on the validity of the (any) supreme deity (even a Tao state or primal state?

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva

Also, Did he entertain any thoughts on the validity of the (any) supreme deity (even a Tao state or primal state?

 

I'm not the one to ask.  If you search Birth of Tragedy in wiki there is a mention of 'an abyss of human suffering ' and attaining to 'primordial unity' of everything which he and apparently the Greeks named 'Dionysian'.  Whether we can correlate that with 8=3 whatever I don't know.   Isn't this all  semantics? Like our sceptical pal Los used to say,  'do you honestly think that the only people in history to.be self realised were a dozen Victorian Freemasons?'

Jim Eshelman once wrote that Nietzsche became a mad invalid because he 'went through the Abyss' without having a sense of the divine.  A sweeping statement?  Like Ignant said, it's best to have a grounding in the history of philosophy per se before you can form generalised conclusions about Nietzsche.  For example at least know your Plato who he hated.  Hitler was into Nietzsche, I doubt he could have told you much about Kant, Schopenhauer,  Plato or Aristotle, then again I don't see why Nietzsche wouldn't have dug Hitler as the former dug Machiavelli.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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toadstoolwe
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@shiva "I wonder if Katrice is into brotherhood" Well yes, , if you mean "brotherhood" in its broadest meaning.  For example: "The Brotherhood of Man" or, the term "Mankind, humanity" includes women.  For example, the poem "Ode to Joy" by Friedrich Schiller:  "All people become brothers, where thy gentle wing abides".


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hadgigegenraum
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@david-dom-lemieux 

Thanks David you beat me to the punch relative to Mr. Nietzche's mission to put a hammer to philosophy, albeit the pen became the hammer, but while the symbol could well be claimed as trade mark of the Masonic camps, I don't think Zarathustra had much kin with such dens of deceit, hidden hands and all that, but maybe there are pictures of Fred with such a pose.

 

 

 


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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva

I wonder if katrice is into brotherhoods.

I'd prefer a siblinghood, I like a good mix. 😉 

 

 

Re: Nietzsche, let me throw this in to the mix:

 

“I do not wish to dwell on my analysis of the existential problem posed by Nietzsche in any detail. After all, if Nietzsche's definition of the problem is clear, the solutions he suggested are both hazy and dangerous — particularly in the case of his theory of the Übermensch and the will to power, and his naturalistic, almost physical praise of 'life'. To 'be oneself' and to follow one's own law as an absolute law can certainly be a positive and legitimate option — or, rather, the only remaining option: but this is true only in the case of the human type I addressed in Ride the Tiger: an individual possessing two natures, one 'personal' and one transcendent. The idea of 'being oneself', therefore — of achieving self-realization and of severing all bonds — will have a different meaning according to what nature it is that expresses it. Transcendence ('that which is more than life’), understood as a central and conscious element present within immanence ('life'), provides the foundation for the existential path I outlined — a path that includes elements such as: 'Apollonian Dionysism' (i.e., an opening towards the most intense and diverse aspects of life, here experienced through the lucid inebriation brought about by the presence of a superior principle), impersonal activism (pure action that transcends good and evil, prospects of success or failure, happiness and unhappiness) and the challenging of oneself without any fear that the 'I' might suffer (internal invulnerability). The origin of some of these ideas should be self-evident to those who have followed my discussion so far.” ― Julius Evola, The Path of Cinnabar

 

 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

there is a mention of 'an abyss of human suffering ' and attaining to 'primordial unity' of everything ...

Okay. At least he had his macrocosmic paradigm set up to allow escape for suffering humans

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Like our sceptical pal Los used to say,  'do you honestly think that the only people in history to.be self realised were a dozen Victorian Freemasons?'

Well, no, I don't honestly think that. Why would Los accuse somebody of narrowing down the entire eternal lineage into a few decades? Besides, there is no evidence that said Victorian Free-Masons were "self-realized." Rather, they seem to have been seeking the secrets of self-realization ... just like all those who came and went before them.

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Jim Eshelman once wrote that Nietzsche became a mad invalid because he 'went through the Abyss' without having a sense of the divine.

As a sweeping general statement, this is a cool observation ... with potential pitfalls and problematic problems. The medical record indicates that N.'. became a "mad invalid" because he had contracted syphilis, the end stage of which is incapacity and invalidity.

Posted by: @toadstoolwe

if you mean "brotherhood" in its broadest meaning.  For example: "The Brotherhood of Man"

Neti-neti-no-no, not that!  I was making reference to male-brother-type brotherhood. The infamous "good ol' boys' network," as announced in your own posts ...

Posted by: @toadstoolwe

All people become brothers, where thy gentle wing abides".

Posted by: @toadstoolwe

Let us all be Thelemic brothers!

There is no allowance in these statements for sisters. Reference, by yourself, to altruistic Brotherhood of Mens or Hu-men-ity are denied. Please get a drip and start using gender-neutral pronouns and apostles like "it." Such as ...

The Ithood of All Peoples.

Huitity.

It sapiens.

 


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toadstoolwe
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@shiva Oh good Lord!  The PC Police have taken hold.  I guess even the Holy Bible will be re-written to avoid gender bias.  I am not an "IT" I am a HE.  Didn't Crowley write that certain levels of his writing "Should not be altered by one word"?  Why don't you re-write the Ten Commandments while you are at it?  In Crowley's Magick Without Tears he makes reference to Joseph Merrick as "That monster in the London Hospital."  I was aghast, until I learned that long ago the word "monster" simply referred to an anomaly in nature.  It was not meant as an insult as we know it today.


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katrice
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@shiva 

Posted by: @shiva

There is no allowance in these statements for sisters. 

Some people would seem to prefer there not be any, except maybe as a substitute for blow-up dolls. 

Reference, by yourself, to altruistic Brotherhood of Mens or Hu-men-ity are denied. Please get a drip and start using gender-neutral pronouns and apostles like "it." Such as ...

There are plenty of singular and plural terms to use there without having to use "it", which can come off as dehumanizing. 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @toadstoolwe

I am not an "IT" I am a HE. 

Forget the PC Police. Your insistence is going to get you busted by the TG Police, and they don't mess around. They cut your parts off. Relax, become neutral on your own.

Posted by: @toadstoolwe

Didn't Crowley write that certain levels of his writing "Should not be altered by one word"?

Letter. Don't adjust the Letters. Then he proceeded to tidy fiddle things up ... just a little. I'm sure he never foresaw the fill/kill enigma.

Posted by: @toadstoolwe

Why don't you re-write the Ten Commandments while you are at it?

Jesus reduced them to three, and Aiwass delivered but one. Why should I go back in time in order to do something that I have no interest in doing?

 


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