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Friedrich Nietzsche and Aleister Crowley

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toadstoolwe
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@shiva "Why don't you rewrite the Ten Commandments while you are at it"?  That would be asking a lot of you, and if you have no interest, that's good enough for me.  I'll stick with Oz Liber LXXVII.


   
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toadstoolwe
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@shiva All good points.  But it reminds me of Oz Liber LXXVII.  It's not the Ten Commandments', but they are good advice.


   
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ignant666
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Posted by: @toadstoolwe

Why don't you re-write the Ten Commandments while you are at it?

You can breathe easy. One reason that no gender-correct modern folks are likely to do this is that these Commandments that you seek to defend contain few uses of gendered pronouns. As you know, in English, only third-person singular pronouns are gendered.

Almost all of the 28 pronouns are in the archaic second person familiar (that is used among humans for speaking to servants, small children, close friends, and dogs, or if one is a Friend/Quaker (once a way of disrespecting earthly authority by refusing to use the "respectful" "you" forms)), i.e. "thee" and "thou".

There are five uses of third person masculine pronouns as to humans, and one where god speaks of himself in the third person masculine.

I don't think anyone ever in history has interpreted this use of gendered pronouns as applying only to men, allowing women free reign to worship other gods, and covet their neighbor's ass, ox, manservant, maidservant, husband or wife, or their other stuff.


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @toadstoolwe

All good points.

I am not able to recall said points, so I must wear contextless glasses.

Posted by: @toadstoolwe

Oz Liber LXXVII

Ozzie-man-deus numbered seventy the seventh, The Devil, of course. Tell me about it. S+i+v+a = 77. Oz is ground down to the point, multiple points being listed. Oz (the Liber, not the doc) is the declaration of the Rights of Man, and Women, too. It sets the initiate up to do as he Wills.

The key word is Will. Since Will (as well as Wisdom) are the essence of Chokmah, not many peoples grt to exercise their "True" Will. Here's how it works (I will now "explain" Thelema) - In the beginning there was no Will, and nothing else. So the Elomhim (plural) created the Outer Order. This is where people go to get their Shinola box together. Their Will is to get their vehicle together, so that it can bear the impact of the Solar Angel. This is therefore a generic Will that applies to anybody's box that is not tight and contained. Therion stated that it was the Will of everyone to contact the Angel. So that level is pre-defined.

The elohim said, "Let us create purgatory and call it the Inner Order." The Adepts of the Inner Order have, as their form of a generic task, a Will-task that involves doing what the Angel says. So everybody will do something different, but it's not yet their "True" Will.

Doing one's "True" Will, that is - fulfilling the coronal imperative of pre-programmed destiny (essentially, doing what you were made to do in the beginning), is only accomplished in a wu-wei state. Oz may be applied with impunity when one is operating at this level, including those who would be a-thwarting achieving termination.

Any pushiness or insistence on the rights of Oz applied at the lesser levels (the gardens of illusion, created by the plural Elohim), will be met with conflict by The established Establishment. You see, it (The Big E) has its own rules about what one can do, and they don't always coincide with Oz.

Now, as a friendly suggestion, without compulsion, I draw your attention to the semi-universal consideration that you can't go wrong with 333 as your companion and guide. Forget this Oz stuff, it only leads to one making their point, then getting killed over it, because "they" have better armament.

Posted by: @toadstoolwe

they are good advice.

The ten demands and the 77 rights are other people's yamas and niyamas. It is forbidden, oh it, unto thee, to use anyone else's lists of good/bad or do/don'ts. Says so in Book 4, so don't accuse me of making this up ... or down.


   
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toadstoolwe
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@shiva I am really going to have to bone up on Lao-Tze, and Confucius, and Ancient Chinese Ethical philosophy as well, if I am going to make a dent into LIBER333.  Thanks for the extra homework!


   
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katrice
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@toadstoolwe

Posted by: @toadstoolwe

I am really going to have to bone up on Lao-Tze, and Confucius, and Ancient Chinese Ethical philosophy as well, if I am going to make a dent into LIBER333.  Thanks for the extra homework!

and Zhuangzi as well


   
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toadstoolwe
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@katrice Yes, and Zhaungzi  (Who I have not heard of until now) Which shows you how deficient I am in Oriental philosophy.  Back in my College days, I think I knew more than I do now.  Now I have to re-read and reacquaint myself with books i read years ago.  It will be a pleasure!


   
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David Lemieux
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Jack Parsons referenced 'the Dionysisian' here; 
https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/bb/babalon007.htm&source=gmail&ust=1659974000076000&usg=AOvVaw2VEYd_eTykZIlBX435Hbv g">Book of BABALON - Sub-Figura vel Liber Babalon (bibliotecapleyades.net)    INTRODUCTION


This book contains the record of a magical experiment relating to the invocation of an elemental, the thereafter of the Goddess or Force called BABALON,..etc...............

A note on the underlying philosophy. The present age is under the influence of the force called, in magical terminology, Horus. This force relates to fire, Mars, and the sun, that is, to power, violence, and energy. It also relates to a child, being innocent (i.e. undifferentiated). Its manifestations may be noted in the destruction of old institutions and ideas, the discovery and liberation of new energies, and the trend towards power governments, war, homosexuality, infantilism, and schizophrenia.

This force is completely blind, depending upon the men and women in whom it manifests and who guide it. Obviously, its guidance now tends towards catastrophy.

The catastrophic trend is due to our lack of understanding of our own natures. The hidden lusts, fears, and hatreds resulting from the warping of the love urge, which underlay the natures of all Western peoples, have taken a homicidal and suicidal direction.

This impasse is broken by the incarnation of another sort of force, called BABALON. The nature of this force relates to love, understanding, and dionysian freedom, and is the necessary counterbalance or correspondence to the manifestation of Horus....

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @toadstoolwe

... have to bone up on Lao-Tze, and Confucius, and Ancient Chinese Ethical philosophy as well, if I am going to make a dent into LIBER333. 

333 is writ in English, by a Western Englishman's mind (as it breaks down). There is not a lot of referencing to the Orient. The trick (the practice, the work) is to read exactly one Chapter at a time - one may include the Commentary for that Chap in order to grasp at some kind of context.

One should not expect each Chap to logically follow its predecessor - this is neither a novel nor a technical how-to-do-it manual. It is a record of the mind of Frater Perdurabo breaking down.

It is interesting to note that the text begins with some very solid definitions. Things like Thelema, Horus, the Phoenix - even some new rituals. But then, in the middle zone, it wanders off, in numerical order, into various metaphysical, but mental, concepts and concerns, each one of which is a lesson in itself.

Moving into the last stretch, the effect of the Abyss begins to crank (not krank) on: Attachments are ripped away. Perdurabo's gal tells him to eat it, then escapes. A Chapter is devoted to her return, but it's just an illusion - she's gone. Now Perdurabo must undertake the final deed all by himself.

The last couple of Chaps, or so, after the scurvy 89th, herald The End. The end, of course, is not reached in 333, because The End is not describable in English or Arabic, and don't expect to find it detailed in Chinese scribble-writ.

So 333 has 93 Chaps, but the first two are "?" and "!," so they are abstract, like Ain Soph, and have no number. Therefore, each aspirant must explore numbers (the occulted Chaps) 92 and 93, on their own. Because nobody can help you here, and the difference, in outcome, is that of the distinction between Master and Blackbro.

Posted by: @ignant666

one where god speaks of himself in the third person masculine.

Is this where YHVH, one of the plural elohim, pretends to be supreme over  the "no other gods before me" scene, where he also lays down the details of The Law? That account is not much different than The Constitution of 1917, writ by BapfometR, no less, wherein the OHO is elevated to supreme powers over everybody.

Posted by: @toadstoolwe

Zhaungzi  (Who I have not heard of until now) Which shows you how deficient I am in Oriental philosophy. 

Don't beat yourself up over this. In 1989, I had Lao and the Yi firmly under my belt. I held an OMD (Doc of Or Med degree), but I wanted that accredited Master's that I had created. So I had ALL the prerequisites but two courses - one of which was Oriental Medical Philosophy. It was taught by the Pres of the College, a Korean Buddhist who dressed like a monk and made visits to Tibet.

His required text was by this fellow Zhaungzi Zhuangzi (Who I had not heard of until then). I had to write a book report. I did not learn one single thing. However, I did learn some interesting tricks from the Monk-Pres words, himself spoken.

The Zhuangzi ; historically romanized Chuang Tzŭ) is an ancient Chinese text from the late Warring States period (476–221 BC) which contains stories and anecdotes that exemplify the carefree nature of the ideal Taoist sage.

 


   
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toadstoolwe
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@shiva Thank you for the outline.  Fortunately, I have a collected works by Crowley that includes the entire text of LIber333, so reading it is at my fingertips.  The chapters are deceptively short.  Almost like Koans.  They require thought and possibly, mediation. As the Great Man Jackie Gleason would say...And away we go!


   
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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva

His required text was by this fellow Zhaungzi Zhuangzi (Who I had not heard of until then).

This really surprises me!


   
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hadgigegenraum
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 I smell teaching around here...sniff sniff....followed by citation of credentials, after the short course on 333...and since 333 aka Breaks is but philosophy. pedagogical paradoxes wrapped in magical romanticism of certain blend...is the "Breaks' referring to the shattering after a hammer say or said metaphorically...hitting the breaks was before AC's time, and safety belts...Nietzche did not want to be safe, AC took chances...which I guess brings us back to the I Ching...which is not necessarily a Roulette wheel and betting table... but maybe our teacher might tell us how he is not teaching on this non teaching site...

Any bets!....and what are the odds, or is everything even~


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

tell us how he is not teaching on this non teaching site...

"Teaching consists of causing students to get into a situation from which they cannot escape except by thinking."

Please think about that, then you may find a way to escape.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

or is everything even~

As long as it (anything) exists in form or name, nothing is even. But if one can get things evened up inside, then the outside odds get better.


   
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hadgigegenraum
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I smelt that one coming....


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @shiva

Please think about that, then you may find a way to escape.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

I smelt that one coming....

Your olfactory sensors appear to be overloaded today. I see you are unable to escape by thinking, or not, due to olfactory choronzon. Let's see what's really wafting on the breezes.

Posters preach on LAShTAL all the time, including your rambling exposes of The (contemporary) Black Lodge that you manage to slip in under cover of being on-topic - which I think is pretty slick, and I'm pleased to see someone doing it. The soap boxes come in different sizes, colors, an construction. I hate the plastic ones - they're not stable.

Then there are (sometimes) Book Reviews. I like to review 333 from different angles and altitudes. To which must be added, personal opinions, which are often not worth the Shinola to be smelt.

Anyway, teaching involves situations with no escape, but my book review, sermon, opinion ons on how to get out. are always offered on a tuition-free basis, and there are neither exams nor grades offered.

Wait a minute and WTF? You are on a binge today, attacking other benevolent posters who are pure of heart, mercilessly dragging them down into your mud-filled, plastic gutter. Please stop smelling and resort to either meditation, medication, or both.

 


   
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hadgigegenraum
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@shiva 

Certainly accept my apologies!

Smell is one of the last senses to go so I think you might want to revise your last, "WTF" paragraph.

Now I do think that your response, here quoted, is very important to the subject of this discussion "Nietzsche and Aleister Crowley"...

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum
Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

tell us how he is not teaching on this non teaching site...

"Teaching consists of causing students to get into a situation from which they cannot escape except by thinking."

Please think about that, then you may find a way to escape.

So yes my "I could smell that coming" was unfair, relative to what is an important consideration here a the praxis of love of knowledge and magick, through two famous personalities of some talent.

Now my talents yesterday were reduced to olfactory metaphors as your koan, or monkey trap was forcing me to think...

Now thinking can get one out of the trap as well as create it and spring it, beyond virtual reality gaming for the sand box of the silicon crowd.....oh yes that makes this possible... but I was thinking of the power of the placebo effect...and thus by magic!

So Rudolph Steiner's book Nietzsche: Fighter for Freedom, speaks to Dr. Steiner's Doctoral Thesis The Philosophy of Freedom. where the capacities of sense free thinking are developed infused with will, to which moral intuition is based upon love, and not thou shalt but thinking liberated by such constrictions on thinking/will that motivated by moral intuition of love, that persons, "Thou wilt" Love that is free thinking because it is not tied to "thou shalt's"...which is not freedom...which includes the thou shalt of thinking...

Thus the way out....love...which is the way in...depending on the pheromones and how they are blowing...

Pheromones are sort of like purple beyond purple...

Here etched in sand...

 

 

 

 


   
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ignant666
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Thus the way out....love...which is the way in..

Not, of course, a subject about which our boy FN knew much, or about which i recall him writing much.

"Cruelty", yes, i can remember paens to that, but "love", not so much. Maybe my recollection, or limited reading, is at fault.

I am aware of his neurotic fixation on a woman he probably never as much as kissed.


   
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the_real_simon_iff
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Posted by: @ignant666

I am aware of his neurotic fixation on a woman he probably never as much as kissed.

Maybe the biggest parallel between AC and FN. Both were brilliant with ... well ... issues. Contrary to the prophet FN theorized about Dionysian without knowing any more than theory about it.

 

 


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @ignant666

david- Surely British universities must have adult education/continuing education programs?

I enrolled in one (at New York University) when i was 27. I originally enrolled to get student loan $ to use as capital to expand my drug-dealing business, but i was seduced by the content of my courses into taking it seriously.

As a person who is interested in philosophy, you should consider signing up for an intro to philosophy course (at least) at the nearest university that offers such programs. It might be free, or very cheap, and if it costs money, you will find it money well spent.

There are benefits to studying with smart people, who have studied with smart people (who have studied with smart people, lather, rinse, repeat, on back to the dawn of the academic system in the late middle ages), and further benefits to studying with others at your own level. AC modeled the A.'. A.'. "each one teach one" teaching system in part on his Cambridge tutorials.

You often remind me of smart but alienated undergrads who would try to troll my classes when i was teaching. Please seriously give some thought to getting some higher dedication, however much this suggestion raises all sorts of defensive backlash. You would dig it, you would benefit from it, others would benefit from you being there.

 

I googled random university continuing Intro to Philosophy course and this is what e.g. Edinburgh University are offering;  Introduction to Philosophy | The University of Edinburgh

 

Topics covered on this course include:

  • Epistemology, where we’ll consider what our knowledge of the world and ourselves consists in, and how we come to have it;
  • Philosophy of science, where we’ll investigate foundational conceptual issues in scientific research and practice;
  • Philosophy of Mind, where we’ll ask questions about what it means for something to have a mind, and how minds should be understood and explained;
  • Political Philosophy, where we'll investigate whether we have an obligation to obey the law;
  • Moral Philosophy, where we’ll attempt to understand the nature of our moral judgements and reactions – whether they aim at some objective moral truth, or are mere personal or cultural preferences, and;
  • Metaphysics, where we’ll think through some fundamental conceptual questions about free will and the nature of reality.

 

Handouts

 

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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Shiva
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It is noted that you, david, have opted for the clandestine online option wherein you purloin all the course materials, avoiding the inconveniences of paying tuition and attending time-consuming classes. It has always been my professional academic position (no joke intended) to allow/grant transfer credit for "life experience" ... as long as it can be documented - even academia requires proof. RTCs need not apply.

So we now have your proof on file. After perusing said proofs, you may apply for examination before the Ignant Peer Review Defense Committee for your examination,


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva

It is noted that you, david, have opted for the clandestine online option wherein you purloin all the course materials, avoiding the inconveniences of paying tuition and attending time-consuming classes.

Do they (universities) even do face to face teaching any more in such courses?  I think that since Covid they favour doing lectures using Zoom or Teams or whatever.  The times they have a changed.   I posted that to give a good overview of what they have on their curricula nowadays.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Do they (universities) even do face to face teaching any more in such courses?

Yes, they do. I have a campus of The University of New Mexico, where I taught Tai Chi and Karate (the philosophy of which is very subtle), just one-half mile to the west of, and below, the Olympus Hill upon which we endure. 

They offer real entry-level courses in all the disciplines, plus specialization in computer shinola and the mysteries of medical nursing - that's where the money-paying jobs are these days. They also offer a bunch of courses online - so they are entry-level in the Borgification of the Edu system.

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Zoom or Teams or whatever.

Yes. They are (all) drifting in this direction.

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

The times they have a changed.

Oh, you noticed.

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

I posted that to give a good overview of what they have on their curricula nowadays.  

But a review of one school is not a "good overview" of the edu system. You must look harder and deeper in order to find a sit-down-on-the-hard-seat venue (classroom) near your domicile.

 

 


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva

Moving into 

The Zhuangzi ; historically romanized Chuang Tzŭ) is an ancient Chinese text from the late Warring States period (476–221 BC) which contains stories and anecdotes that exemplify the carefree nature of the ideal Taoist sage.

 

Nietzsche wrote a book called Beyond Good and Evil.  Some say this was a testament to the principle of being 'Beyond one thing and another' which would later crop up in 1904 in Liber L.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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the_real_simon_iff
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Nietzsche wrote a book called Beyond Good and Evil.  Some say this was a testament to the principle of being 'Beyond one thing and another' which would later crop up in 1904 in Liber L.

Who are these "some"? I mean, apart from the "beyond", these quotes do not have very much in common.


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff
Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Nietzsche wrote a book called Beyond Good and Evil.  Some say this was a testament to the principle of being 'Beyond one thing and another' which would later crop up in 1904 in Liber L.

Who are these "some"? I mean, apart from the "beyond", these quotes do not have very much in common.

Me and Dr Michael Sugrue.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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the_real_simon_iff
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Me and Dr Michael Sugrue.

Can you provide a source? Dr. Sugrue is quite popular, but I don't have the time to watch or read all of his stuff, and Liber L is not tagged.

 


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff
Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Me and Dr Michael Sugrue.

Can you provide a source? Dr. Sugrue is quite popular, but I don't have the time to watch or read all of his stuff, and Liber L is not tagged.

 

No because I can't find it. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff
Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Me and Dr Michael Sugrue.

Can you provide a source? Dr. Sugrue is quite popular, but I don't have the time to watch or read all of his stuff, and Liber L is not tagged.

 

Apology for a double post but I thought it was somewhere in one of these lectures Nietzsche's Critique of Christianity: The Genealogy of Morals - YouTube   but it's not in first 21 minutes and  The Bible and Western Culture - Nietzsche and the Death of God - YouTube  but not in first 17 minutes anyway.  If I find it I'll post it on.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

I can't find it.

I just hate it when that happens.

 


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

I can't find it.

I just hate it when that happens.

 

 

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

 

Can you provide a source? Dr. Sugrue is quite popular, but I don't have the time to watch or read all of his stuff, and Liber L is not tagged.

 

 

The Bible and Western Culture - Nietzsche and the Death of God - YouTube  27 minutes into the video there is something similar about loss of opposites but I don't think that that is the specific footage I was talking about.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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David Lemieux
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Basically Crowley was enamoured by Nietzsche and was fond of quoting him here and there when he was in a funny mood.  If you consider the following Maat - Wikipedia  there is extensive evidence that disproves Nietzsche's central idea, that of ancient aristocracies being devoid of modern moral concerns. 

 

     

Maat represents the ethical and moral principle that all Egyptian citizens were expected to follow throughout their daily lives. They were expected to act with honor and truth in matters that involve family, the community, the nation, the environment, and the god.[15].........

 

The significance of Maat developed to the point that it embraced all aspects of existence, including the basic equilibrium of the universe, the relationship between constituent parts, the cycle of the seasonsheavenly movementsreligious observations and good faithhonesty, and truthfulness in social interactions.

 

The Egyptian elite learned how to be part of the elite class through instructions text, such as The Instructions of Ptahhotep, that used Maat as the basis of concrete principles and guidelines for effective rhetoric. A passage from Ptahhotep presents Maat as instruction:

Be generous as long as you live
What leaves the storehouse does not return;
It is the food to be shared which is coveted,
One whose belly is empty is an accuser;
One deprived becomes an opponent,
Don’t have him for a neighbor.
Kindness is a man’s memorial
For the years after the function

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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