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Gnostic Gospels abd Thelema  


hermitas
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Posted by: @dom

Do you see any compatibility between the teachings of Christ and Thelema?  If so where and how? Furthermore if so how do you reconcile this considering that this is not the aeon of 'the dying god?'

I’m really interested in the gnostic-gospel version of this question. 

I’ll add the qualification:

Do you see any compatibility between the teachings of Christ as presented in the Gnostic Gospels and Thelema? 

If so where and how?

Furthermore if so how do you reconcile this considering that this is not the aeon of 'the dying god?'

 


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dom
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Posted by: @hermitas
Posted by: @dom

Do you see any compatibility between the teachings of Christ and Thelema?  If so where and how? Furthermore if so how do you reconcile this considering that this is not the aeon of 'the dying god?'

I’m really interested in the gnostic-gospel version of this question. 

I’ll add the qualification:

Do you see any compatibility between the teachings of Christ as presented in the Gnostic Gospels and Thelema? 

If so where and how?

Furthermore if so how do you reconcile this considering that this is not the aeon of 'the dying god?'

 

Could you give a brief synopsis of what the Gnostic Gospel is and how it differs from the traditional Gospel?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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Start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nag_Hammadi_library

Complete texts here.

The "Thunder Perfect Mind" text is very reminiscent of Babalon. The Nag Hammadi texts were found in 1945, and were essentially still unknown at AC's death, so we have no idea what he might have thought of them, though not hard to guess.


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hermitas
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Posted by: @dom
Posted by: @hermitas
Posted by: @dom

Do you see any compatibility between the teachings of Christ and Thelema?  If so where and how? Furthermore if so how do you reconcile this considering that this is not the aeon of 'the dying god?'

I’m really interested in the gnostic-gospel version of this question. 

I’ll add the qualification:

Do you see any compatibility between the teachings of Christ as presented in the Gnostic Gospels and Thelema? 

If so where and how?

Furthermore if so how do you reconcile this considering that this is not the aeon of 'the dying god?'

 

Could you give a brief synopsis of what the Gnostic Gospel is and how it differs from the traditional Gospel?

They found some scrolls that had been hidden for preservation against early Catholic persecution. 

There were texts like the Gospel of Thomas that read like a gnostic version of a gospel. There were many more works found. 

The Thomas gospel differs from the canonical gospels in that it is entirely made up of sayings of Jesus. I don’t know how the other gospels differ. 

Thomas is actually the only one I’ve read so far. I’ll look again and see if  anything seems interesting through this lens. 

Here’s the link I’m using.

 

https://holybooks.com/the-gospel-of-thomas-two-different-translations/


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dom
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Yes I have heard about these scrolls but what are the most radical revelations?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

what are the most radical revelations?

Jesus was a Qabalist and said Make above and below, Inner make into Outer, etc. Two must become One.


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Shiva
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To be more precise ...

Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, 5 and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, 6 when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, 7 then you will enter [the (Father's) domain]."

So, you see, Jesus was quoting Liber AL before it was written (even in 1902 or thereabouts). He was a Thelemite in Osirian clothing. He expounded the "No Difference" clause.

Ooooh, I like this one ...

Jesus said, "The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. 2 They have not entered, nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so. 3 As for you, be as sly as snakes and as simple as doves."


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wellreadwellbred
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Dom: "Yes I have heard about these scrolls but what are the most radical revelations?"

"... Nag Hammadi is, apparently, a library of writings, almost all of them gnostic. Although they claim to offer secret teaching, many of these texts refer to the Scriptures of the Old Testament, and others to the letters of Paul and the New Testament gospels. Many of them include the same dramatic personae as the New Testament--Jesus and his disciples. Yet the differences are striking.

[First,] Orthodox Jews and Christians insist that a chasm separates humanity from Its creator: God is wholly other. But some of the gnostics who wrote these gospels contradict this: self-knowledge is knowledge of God; the self and the divine are identical.

Second, the "living Jesus" of these texts speaks of illusion and enlightenment, not of sin and repentance, like the Jesus of the New Testament. Instead of coming to save us from sin, he comes as a guide who opens access to spiritual understanding. But when the disciple attains enlightenment, Jesus no longer serves as his spiritual master: the two have become equal--even identical.

Third, orthodox Christians believe that Jesus is Lord and Son of God in a unique way: he remains forever distinct from the rest of humanity whom he came to save. Yet the gnostic Gospel of Thomas relates that as soon as Thomas recognizes him, Jesus says to Thomas that they have both received their being from the same source:

Jesus said, "I am not your master. Because you have drunk, you have become drunk from the bubbling stream which I have measured out.... He who will drink from my mouth will become as I am: I myself shall become he, and the things that are hidden will be revealed to him."

Does not such teaching--the identity of the divine and human. the concern with illusion and enlightenment, the founder who is presented not as Lord, but as spiritual guide sound more Eastern than Western? Some scholars have suggested that if the names were changed, the "living Buddha" appropriately could say what the Gospel of Thomas attributes to the living Jesus."

(Source: Introduction from « The Gnostic Gospels » by Elaine Pagels, in The Nag Hammadi Library The definitive translation of the Gnostic scriptures complete in one volume, James M. Robinson general editor,   )


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hermitas
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Posted by: @dom

Yes I have heard about these scrolls but what are the most radical revelations?

After looking again, I must confess I spend most of the time wondering what Thomas’ Jesus means in the first place. 

i do think the following passage may be relevant. It is super sexist of course: 

“114 Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes
herself male will enter the domain of Heaven." 

The language here is unforgivable in today’s context, but I’m reading it as encouraging assertiveness and self-determination in women despite itself. If read that way, it seems in more in line with Thelema than Paul’s “let the women be silent.”

Still, I feel like there may be a qabalistic thing here that I’m missing ...or something like that.


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dom
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Posted by: @hermitas

 

Still, I feel like there may be a qabalistic thing here that I’m missing ...or something like that.

...but the Cabbalah was created in the medieval period?   Have these scrolls been carbon tested?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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hermitas
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Posted by: @dom
Posted by: @hermitas

 

Still, I feel like there may be a qabalistic thing here that I’m missing ...or something like that.

...but the Cabbalah was created in the medieval period?   Have these scrolls been carbon tested?

I don’t know what to call the hypothesized oral tradition that would have preceded the written medieval qabalah period. But that’s what I was referring to. 


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hermitas
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By the way, I didn’t start this thread to expound my thoughts on the matter. I have no agenda but to learn. 


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hermitas
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Posted by: @shiva

So, you see, Jesus was quoting Liber AL before it was written (even in 1902 or thereabouts). He was a Thelemite in Osirian clothing. He expounded the "No Difference" clause.

Lol. Cynic much?

Masters be mastering. 

Thomas sounds made up to me. It sounds pseudo-mystical. There are a few passages, like those you quoted, that I begin to think may hold promise. But overall, to me, it seems like there’s just nothing to it.


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @hermitas

Do you see any compatibility between the teachings of Christ as presented in the Gnostic Gospels and Thelema? 

If so where and how?

Posted by: @ignant666

The "Thunder Perfect Mind" text is very reminiscent of Babalon.

In the very early days of the Albion Oasis (=main UK body at the time) of the Caliphornian O.T.O., there were a couple of performances in 1986-7 (at both of which I attended) of a half-hour long (approximately) ritual directly based on "Thunder Perfect Mind".  It was composed/adapted by the leader at the time, David Rietti (possibly along with Arild Stromsvag, his Norwegian counterpart) and although the performances took place "in open temple" I am fairly certain they were not regarded as "official" Caliphornian ceremonies as such, however. (Although maybe this has changed since, and I am open to correction if anyone from the order would care dare to notify.)

Posted by: @dom

Yes I have heard about these scrolls but what are the most radical revelations?

I'm not sure it was in one of these particular scrolls, but one of the apocryphal Gospels revealed that the adolescent Jesus cursed one of his peers who had been annoying him in school, and killed him.  Although arguably this showed a more 'human' side to him, this was presumably before he had been able to attain a certain level of mastery over his basic drives and advancement with self-control/ compassion.

Posted by: @hermitas

The language here is unforgivable in today’s context, but I’m reading it as encouraging assertiveness and self-determination in women despite itself. If read that way, it seems in more in line with Thelema than Paul’s “let the women be silent.”

However, if even the Scarlet Woman can't "achieve Hadit" without fulfilling certain conditions (AL III:43-4) - which all men don't need to - what does that 'thelemically' say about the (abilities of the) rest of women?

Non-sexistly yours,

Norma N Joy Conquest


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Shiva
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Posted by: @hermitas

LOL Cynic much?

Um, this sentence doesn't make sense (to me), but I was not being cynical. The "no difference" clause is well known; there is an alternative theory about when AL was written.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

what does that 'thelemically' say about the (abilities of the) rest of women?

Non-sexistly yours,

The Holee Prophet his-self, To Mega, stated that a woman could not become a Magus because she (they) don't have the physical equipment. This statement conflicts with the concept I was inwardly given to see, that there is "no difference. Everybody is a Star.

Looking at history, we don't find any women Magi, so maybe he and Jesus were right, and I was left (behind). In Tibet, many women are noted for having attained the "rainbow body," which is a sign of the ultimate attainment; but they didn't become Magi first and announce a new world religion.

Maybe women get to by-pass the curse of the grade (of Magus)? I would become confused at this point, but this time I'll let it side, until somebody else solves the mystery.

 

 


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hermitas
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Posted by: @hermitas
Posted by: @hermitas

LOL Cynic much?

Um, this sentence doesn't make sense (to me), but I was not being cynical. The "no difference" clause is well known; there is an alternative theory about when AL was written.

I thought you were trying to give me a hard time. 

Personally, I don’t know that I would need the precise language you used in your description of Jesus, but my guess is that masters share the same qualities regardless of aeon.

 

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

However, if even the Scarlet Woman can't "achieve Hadit" without fulfilling certain conditions (AL III:43-4) - which all men don't need to - what does that 'thelemically' say about the (abilities of the) rest of women?

Non-sexistly yours,

There it is. 


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dom
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Did anyone see the Bill Hicks routine on the redneck argument that God putt fossils in the rocks to 'test our faith'.  Well, maybe some would say that these scrolls go under the same umbrella ...unless they would argue that The Devil put them there.  Without googling I can guess the R.C.Church's take on all this.  This is an astounding find though. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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wellreadwellbred
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dom: "Did anyone see the Bill Hicks routine on the redneck argument that God putt fossils in the rocks to 'test our faith'. Well, maybe these scrolls go under the same umbrella ...unless The Devil put them there.   Haha without googling I can guess the R.C.Church's take on all this."

The Nag Hammadi "... Codices are written in are written in Coptic, a form of the Egyptian language used in the late antique period. They contain 52 works, most of which were previously unknown to modern scholars. It is probable, although not certain, that most of the texts were originally written in Greek and have been translated into Coptic for the benefit for non-Greek readers."

(Source: The Nag Hammadi Codices were made by monks - - - https://www.tf.uio.no/english/research/news-and-events/news/2016/monastic-origins-nag-hammadi-codices.html )

 

The Coptic Orthodox Church of present time, does not accept the Gospel of Thomas:

"Why doesn't the Coptic Orthodox Church accept the Gospel of Thomas?

The apocryphal Gospel of Thomas was found with the Nag Hammadi excavations in 1947-49. It is written in Coptic and belongs to the Gnostic tradition, dating to around AD200 (long after the martyrdom of St. Thomas). The content of this "gospel" is a collection of sayings by Christ, but little in the way of any actions.

Gnosticism was a philosophical orientation that was strong in the first century AD. It competed with Judaism and Christianity, but eventually failed in the struggle. "Gnosis" simply means "Knowledge." The classical Gnostic view is that salvation derives from an insight into secret knowledge and the capacity to discover truth by means of our intellect alone. The Gnostic view also understands everything as an outcome of a struggle between two powers, light and good versus dark and evil. This dualism is what characterizes Gnosticism.

There were a number of Gnostic writers and writers of other cults and sects in the days of early Christianity that used and reinterpreted Christian theology to suit their own philosophical points of view. The gospel of Thomas is an example of this. St Paul warns against such views and instructs Christians to stay away from them."

(Source: Coptic Orthodox Diocese of the Southern United States [...] Q&A Home > G > Gospel of St. Thomas Why doesn't the Coptic Orthodox Church accept the Gospel of Thomas? - - - https://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=244&catid=176 )


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ignant666
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wrwb: troll; troll; troll

Why is is that wrwb is not on "universal ignore" yet?

If we really needed constant posts, by an Xian fundie, consisting of long quotes, and zero original content, that constantly point out that AC made up Thelema, could we not invent a better one than said wrwb?


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

However, if even the Scarlet Woman can't "achieve Hadit" without fulfilling certain conditions (AL III:43-4) - which all men don't need to - what does that 'thelemically' say about the (abilities of the) rest of women?

NB "Correction" (- Too Late for "Edit"): I meant to put AL III:44-5 above.  (Which stated the following...>)

44. But let her raise herself in pride! Let her follow me in my way! Let her work the work of wickedness! Let her kill her heart! Let her be loud and adulterous! Let her be covered with jewels, and rich garments, and let her be hameless before all men!

45. Then will I lift her to pinnacles of power: then will I breed from her a child mightier than all the kings of the earth. I will fill her with joy: with my force shall she see & strike at the worship of Nu: she shall achieve Hadit.

@hermitas -

Posted by: @hermitas
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

However, if even the Scarlet Woman can't "achieve Hadit" without fulfilling certain conditions (AL III:43-4) - which all men don't need to - what does that 'thelemically' say about the (abilities of the) rest of women?

Non-sexistly yours,

There it is. 

I take it you're indicating that the verses actually 'say' Thelema is demonstrably "sexist" there.  Against that point though, one must weigh in the balance the early-on confirmation that "Every man and every woman is a star" (AL I:3) and, to a lesser degree, the statement "Let the woman be girt with a sword before me" (AL III:10).  So perhaps the matter is not quite so black and white as might at first seem...

Posted by: @dom

Did anyone see the Bill Hicks routine on the redneck argument that God putt fossils in the rocks to 'test our faith'

No. (I didn't/haven't).  Did you manage to find it at all persuasive?

N Joy


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hermitas
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I take it you're indicating that the verses actually 'say' Thelema is demonstrably "sexist" there.  Against that point though, one must weigh in the balance the early-on confirmation that "Every man and every woman is a star" (AL I:3) and, to a lesser degree, the statement "Let the woman be girt with a sword before me" (AL III:10).  So perhaps the matter is not quite so black and white as might at first seem...

No actually, I meant it’s a perfect example of the female-becoming-male language as in the final saying in the Gospel of Thomas.

I guess I need to explain my reactions a little more.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

"Gnosis" simply means "Knowledge."

I would dispute this definition. Jnana Yoga, which is a similar tradition held by heathen Hindus in the "East." That one is translated, "Union by Knowledge," which is a western translation.

In their haste to translate, the translators have faile to note that this "knowledge" is knowledge gained through direct perception. Anyone can did just a bit deeper into their philosophies and find out about gnosis, which is something we're all familiar with here. Right?

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

... to discover truth by means of our intellect alone.

Oops. This won't work. Where's the part about intuition and direct perception?

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

St Paul warns against such views and instructs Christians to stay away from them.

Well, of course he did. They were the competition. They said each unit could figure out the truth. He (Paul) was promoting a system of belief and middle men who would explain what to believe.

Posted by: @ignant666

long quotes, and zero original content

Not a troll. A Borg agent.

 


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hermitas
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Posted by: @ignant666

The "Thunder Perfect Mind" text is very reminiscent of Babalon.

Wow... Very much so. Thanks for that.


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