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Hebrew/Arabic translation of Liber AL?  

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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
03/09/2009 4:49 pm  

Has there been any attempt to translate and publish Liber Al vel Legis into Hebrew or Arabic?

And if so where would i be able to find it? Google suggests nothing on this issue.

Thanks.


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IAO131
(@iao131)
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03/09/2009 7:10 pm  
"hawthornrussell" wrote:
Has there been any attempt to translate and publish Liber Al vel Legis into Hebrew or Arabic?

And if so where would i be able to find it? Google suggests nothing on this issue.

Thanks.

93,

Compliments of the OTO Translator's guild:

Hebrew Liber AL

On their site they say Arabic is "under preparation." There IS a Persian version here.

93 93/93
IAO131[/url]


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
04/09/2009 6:25 am  

I am curious. Why are you desirous of a Hebrew or Aramaic translation of Liber Al? I am especially curious being that the very question tells me that you wouldn't be able to read it... I hope you do not take my reply in any negative manner. I really am simply curious and mean no condescension...


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 Anonymous
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04/09/2009 8:55 am  

Thanks for the links IAO 131.


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SatansAdvocaat
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07/09/2009 4:20 pm  

Yes, many thanks to IAO131 for letting us know about the Hebrew translation of Liber AL, but most thanks of all to the translator, Xenia Novi.

Have been dipping into it with delight. My knowledge of the language is more aligned to Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic Qabbala, while this is a contemporary rendition. Translation is a discipline with a certain amount of flexibility and I can see things with which I do not entirely agree -
ThVOBTh HHRS is not the phrase I would use for "the Abomination of Desolation" for example. But its an excellent piece of work.

Regards - Satan's Advocaat


The Children of Transgression are the Dragons of the Law.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
08/09/2009 2:23 am  
"Satan'sAdvocaat" wrote:
ThVOBTh HHRS is not the phrase I would use for "the Abomination of Desolation" for example.

Agreed. I would have thought that any phrase with an obvious Old Testament source would have used that original, if only for evocative flavor. 🙂 The Abomination of Desolation is usually ShQVTz ShMM (Daniel 11:31 and 12:11). There's also "transgression of desolation," or PShO ShMM (Daniel 8:13). Maybe modern Hebrew speakers wouldn't recognize these?

It's interesting that the transcription of Abrahadabra used throughout is non-standard: ABRAKDBRH. I wonder why Crowley's usual (sums-to-418) version wasn't used. Even if it's an unprounoucable mess in modern Hebrew, it's pretty important in Thelema...

I thought that "at thy Kaaba" was interesting: B-QABH. Is this just a transcription of the Arabic, or is this an actual Hebrew word?

Very interesting!

Steve


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SatansAdvocaat
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11/09/2009 5:43 pm  

Hi Steve,

Yes, ShQVTz ShMM is precisely what I had in mind. ThVOBH, or ThVOBTh, does mean 'abomination' and is a word frequently used in the O.T. But I would have translated HRS as 'destruction, ruin' rather than 'desolation'.

In MAGICK WITHOUT TEARS AC does refer to having analysed the original phrase of 'abomination of desolation' in Scripture, but I don't recall that he states which scriptures. The name occurs in the N.T. also, and I generally get the impression that he was happier working with the Greek than the Hebrew. However, I suspect that it was one of those biblical phrases that had appealed and taken root in his subconscious AND that Aiwass was pointing him towards the source in Daniel 12.11 !!

And here, inevitably, is where translation and gematria intertwine for ShQVTz ShMM = 876 = NOTz ThRIVN, NOX-Therion, The Mark of the Beast.

Yes, and a lot more of interest.

AHBH HIA HChVQ, AHBH ThChTH RTzVN.

Now should that really be HChVQ.....? 😈

Satan's Advocaat.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
12/09/2009 2:03 am  
"Satan'sAdvocaat" wrote:
AHBH HIA HChVQ, AHBH ThChTH RTzVN.

Now should that really be HChVQ.....? 😈

I missed this one. Yes, shouldn't "law" be some variant of "Torah?" This whole book is the SPR H-TVRH, after all!

(I actually don't speak or read Hebrew, but decades of Qabalah does drill some of this stuff into the brain...) 🙂

Steve


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SatansAdvocaat
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12/09/2009 12:25 pm  

Yes, I've always tended to think/use HThVRH, 'The Torah', but I can see why this might be considered relatively controversial, in the translation of a Book which in itself is 'contoversial'. (?)

The ABRAKDBRH business is a bit more centrally important. The translator is careful to retain such things as ampersands (&) in the text, but decides apparently that she needs to clarify ABRAHADABRA for an Hebraic reader-ship, instead of simply transliterating it. ABRAKDBRH has to be a gloss on 'Abracadabra', which is definitely a retrograde step; and it only has nine letters and a value of 435.

While not all Thelemites accept that ABRAHADABRA = 418 is THE Word of the Aeon, I think they would regard it as quintessential to the text of Liber AL.

Regards - S.A.
_______________________

The Children of Transgression are the Dragons of the Law.


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threefold31
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14/09/2009 8:11 am  

Dwtw

According to The Vision and the Voice, the word of the Aeon is Makhashanah, a word which also happens to equal 418 when spelt with Hebrew letters, although it is not an actual Hebrew word as such.

According to AC, Abrahadabra is the 'key of the rituals'.

It's curious that in the original ms of Liber AL, the word in chapter 3, verse 1 is spelled Abraahadabra, with an extra 'a', even though AC was familiar with this word before the transmission of Libr AL.

Also curious is that the word Abracadabra is painted on the Chariot card of the Thoth tarot deck, though clearly AC could have insured that Harris paint the word Abrahadabra if he chose to do so. The fact that the older form of the word is used is rather interesting.

And despite AC's explication of the word Abrahadabra as 418 in Sepher Sephiroth, the word appears in English in the text of Liber AL, and there is no instance of it being enumerated as 418, but of course the number 418 does appear in the text, and these two are generally connected.

The number 435 is the sum of the numbers from 1 to 29, and is therefore the 'mystic number' of the 29th path of the Tree of Life, which is attributed to the letter Qoph. When Qoph is 'spelled in full' it equals 186, which is the sum of Thelema + Agape. In this manner, we can connect the value of ABRAKDBRH with the ideas of Will and Love.

Similarly, when the letter Cheth is 'spelled in full' it equals 418, (part of the reason Abrahadabra is associated with this letter). I suspect that one can make the qabalistic connection between the letters Cheth and Qoph pretty easily.

Litlluw
RLG


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SatansAdvocaat
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14/09/2009 3:59 pm  

93.

Thanks for your contribution threefold 31. As you point out, AC had already formulated Abrahadabra as a magickal word prior to the communication of Liber AL. I've never noted the mis-spelling in the facsimile copy - better have a look at that - not that AC's handwriting makes for the easiest reading.

I would be happy to communicate more on this subject of the Hebrew translation, but as neither the translator nor anyone from the O.T.O. 'Translator's Guild' has joined in the discussion (after all the translation was done back in 2001 e.v. and may not be hot news to everyone), I don't think its appropriate to say any more at present, but I will certainly be doing more work on it.

Yours, as a Centre of Pestilence, maybe ?

93, 93/93.

Satan's Advocaat.
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The Children of Transgression are the Dragon's of the Law.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
14/09/2009 8:00 pm  

93

I watched the discussion with great interest, even tried to send you a PM, but it didn't work.
Could you send me your notes and comments by PM, please?
I translated Liber Al ages ago, and never reviewed it since - maybe, it is time. I hope I am wiser now 🙂

93 93/93

Seimei aka Layla aka the translator


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Nomad
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18/09/2009 12:05 am  

threefold31 wrote:

It's curious that in the original ms of Liber AL, the word in chapter 3, verse 1 is spelled Abraahadabra, with an extra 'a'

It does look a bit that way on the ms, though the handwriting isn't particularly clear. I'm not sure one could really say there is an extra 'a' there with any certainty...

However, if the word actually is 'Abraahadabra' in III:1, then the numeration of the word would be 419, which is Teth, the Lion-Serpent (= The Beast).

That would also add some further meaning to the next verse, ie "there is a word not known. Spelling is defunct; all is not aught."

Perhaps the 'Spelling' to which it refers is not just the god-name Ra Hoor Khut? (Though 'Spelling' may also allude to magick in general, but I best not get carried off on a tangent...)


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threefold31
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18/09/2009 2:21 am  

Dwtw

93 Nomad,

Indeed, you raise a good point. If the word does have an extra 'a' in it, then it could certainly refer to the letter Tet, and may also be the word referred to in the following verse, i.e., the spelling that is defunct would be the spelling of Abrahadabra itself.

As for the curious phrase 'hither homeward', if hither refers to a spatial location, then the phrase is almost redundant, whereas if hither is used in the temporal sense, it opens up some intriguing possibilities.
With so many curious phrases like that in the Book, I commend anyone who attempts a translation into another language.

Litlluw


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Nomad
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18/09/2009 3:46 am  

A further thought on this (though even more speculative!):

"The spell of Ra Hoor Khuit" referred to in III:2 could be Abrahadabra (as it symbolises the Great Work accomplished). Now if the word in III:1 is Abraahadabra, then the spell of Ra Hoor Khuit has been raised from 418 to 419.

This may be a hint to consider the connection between these two numbers, for Teth clearly is of very great importance in this Aeon. (Particularly when considering the New Aeon Tarot: that Teth represents the conjoining of the Beast with the Scarlet Woman.)

But for all that, I'm still not convinced there's an extra a in verse 1. Worth a muse though... 🙂


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SatansAdvocaat
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18/09/2009 2:28 pm  

Listen up Guys,

Thelemic Greetings to Fratres Nomad & threefold 31.

I've had a long hard stare at that opening 'Abrahadabra' in the handwritten facsimile of AL. Its very badly written, which I put down to the initial adrenalin rush of AC contemplating the dictation of Chapter III - compare his later renditions of the Word - it does look like a double 'a', but what happened to the 'r' ? Personally, I do not give it that much esoteric significance.

Layla translator has been in touch, as you may have noted, and I have attempted to communicate with Gehenom Valley Camp (sounds like a great place for a relaxful holiday, don't you think?), so I shall see what comes of this....

Meanwhile, I'll just get lost in the translation.

Love is the law, love under will.

Satan's Advocaat.


The Children of Transgession are the Dragons of the Law.


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threefold31
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19/09/2009 5:55 pm  

Dwtw

The word might even be construed as AHAAHADABRA, as the 'BR' is written so closely that it resembles an 'H'. (thus it would equal 222)

But either way, the word is clearly misspelled in manuscript.

Litlluw


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