Heinlein on Thelema
 
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Heinlein on Thelema

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"... but anyone who takes [Stranger in a Strange Land] as answers is cheating himself. It is an invitation to think - not to believe. Anyone who takes it as a license to screw as he pleases is taking a risk; Mrs. Grundy is not dead. Or any other sharp affront to the contemporary culture done publicly - there are stern warnings in it about the dangers involved. Certainly, "Do as thou wilt is the whole of the Law" is correct when looked at properly - in fact, it is a law of nature, not an injunction, nor a permission. But it is necessary to remember that it applies to everyone - including lynch mobs. The Universe is what it is, and it never forgets mistakes - not even ignorant ones..."

- Robert A. Heinlein, January 20th 1972
From Grumbles from the Grave, 1989


   
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Heinlein is brilliant as usually, I love it. He is my favorite fiction writer, though sometimes he is very strict in his books. He criticises any religious point of view, he hates teology and he is so very atheistic in some of his books... But on the other hand he also sees the nature as the neverending miracle and he is very thelemic-like - he never says it as openly as in this quote, but he ever says, there is no sense to do anything but your own will from beginning till the very end.


   
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(@walterfive)
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A very dear friend and 3rd Degree Brother, the late Fr. Adam Rostoker, (Also known as Adam Walks-Between- Worlds, the Official Bard of the Church of All Worlds) wrote a wonderful piece in 1993, "From Whence Came The Stranger" for Green Egg Magazine examining this very subject. I would be happy to discuss it with you. Please read it here:

http://www.greylodge.org/occultreview/glor_002/stranger.htm

Frater Adam's Greater Feast occured under mysterious circumstances 11 years ago. His murder is still unsolved.


   
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"ihateswine" wrote:
But it is necessary to remember that it applies to everyone - including lynch mobs. The Universe is what it is, and it never forgets mistakes - not even ignorant ones...

   
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Dear Walterfive,

at first, I disagree with author that this book was so special in the context of his work. He had two pretty contoversional books on his account before he published the Stranger - Methuselah's Children and Starship Troopers (which I found almost fascistic and which won Hugo and Nebula a year before Stranger was written - Heinlein was the well respected author in this time yet). The Puppet Masters is a brilliant piece of work.

I have ever considered his thoughts to be his own - he was a genius - under an influence of his second wife Virginia, inspired by many things. Believe me, I would love to accept him being Thelemite. But I suppose he was just clever and wise as hell 🙂 One of the thougts that you can find often in his work is travelling off. Just to take yourself and your memories, leaving your life and luggage behind you and go, leaving the Earth and finding home between the stars to get real freedom.

As I read the article, I find myself desiring to read the book again, I dont remember it so well... The article is quite long, I will continue reading, this is the first opinion of mine 😉


   
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(@walterfive)
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Been a while since I read Methuselah's Children, that's the first one with Lazarus Long, isn't it? Free love, voluntary incest, line-breeding, yeah, that's got some pretty provocative ideas, even for this day & age...

You familiar with the Church of All Worlds? A high-ranking member of CAW would *have* to take the position that "this book was so special in the context of his work", it's the book that their Church is based upon. Of the co-founders of that Church/Organization, Oberon (Otter) Zell is a personal accquaintance of mine, his wife, Morning Glory I like to think I can count among my friends, abeit a long-distance friendship. We share several passions and vices, and we manage to hang out whenever she's in Texas. She's an amazing lady and talented Witch /High Priestess.

This book *is* special, IMHO. It departs from the Militarism of Starship Troopers, and the confines of his "Future History" series of short stories and novels. But Adam never lived to see the publication of Heinlein's first-written book, "For Us, The Living: A Comedy of Customs", so he doesn't have the benefit of being aware that Heinlein's rather libertine free-thinking goes back to 1936, but keep reading. There's some real nuggets for you to mine in that article. Frater Adam debated that article for well over a decade before he published it with just about everybody he knew, and it holds up the better for it, although some points still admittedly suffer, as Adam was a very persuasive man, just ask my second wife! 😉


   
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"A mind-blowing responsibility comes with acknowledging the freedom to act and Heinlein points out that the law of Thelema applies to lynch mobs as well.19 Not that this devalues these observations. Rather, it demonstrates their global application and reemphasizes the understanding that one person's Great Will may be inscrutable to another."
(the article)

x

"Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will.
Do that, and no other shall say nay."
(Liber AL)

I cannot find in second quote anything about lynch mobs..


   
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"Walterfive" wrote:
Been a while since I read Methuselah's Children, that's the first one with Lazarus Long, isn't it? Free love, voluntary incest, line-breeding, yeah, that's got some pretty provocative ideas, even for this day & age...

You familiar with the Church of All Worlds? A high-ranking member of CAW would *have* to take the position that "this book was so special in the context of his work", it's the book that their Church is based upon. Of the co-founders of that Church/Organization, Oberon (Otter) Zell is a personal accquaintance of mine, his wife, Morning Glory I like to think I can count among my friends, abeit a long-distance friendship. We share several passions and vices, and we manage to hang out whenever she's in Texas. She's an amazing lady and talented Witch /High Priestess.

This book *is* special, IMHO. It departs from the Militarism of Starship Troopers, and the confines of his "Future History" series of short stories and novels. But Adam never lived to see the publication of Heinlein's first-written book, "For Us, The Living: A Comedy of Customs", so he doesn't have the benefit of being aware that Heinlein's rather libertine free-thinking goes back to 1936, but keep reading. There's some real nuggets for you to mine in that article. Frater Adam debated that article for well over a decade before he published it with just about everybody he knew, and it holds up the better for it, although some points still admittedly suffer, as Adam was a very persuasive man, just ask my second wife! 😉

Yes, Methuselahs Children is that book where Lazarus appears first. With all his shining personality ;).

All right, I didnt say it was not pertinent and beautiful, I just said it was one step of many others. The evolution of his books was slow and finished with brilliance of his last book. I collect Heinleins books in czech and Ive read about 20-25 of his books.

If I may choose some special ones, it would be Starship Troopers, because it was even so harsh that he was not allowe to publish it as the book for kids as he was planning to - it was really shocking one and it has probably shown him, that he is accepted and Hugo and Nebula had to be a great encouragement for him.

And then Time Enough for Love, my favorite book... This book IS different, he takes a lot of social taboos and he makes it normal for his future society. His characters are free and independent, loving and caring and they are beasts.
This was a terminus, after this he started to write slightly different way, sharing deeply his visions. Before this book it seems that he was trying to guess what will come in the future, in this and after, it is like he was wishing this to become true. And so do I, indeed...

Stranger in Strange Land is a great book and I understand your and their fascination. I will have to take a closer look to your Church of All Worlds, I have actually no idea, what this can be. But I am curious :).

Enough for today, but you have my attention 😉


   
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"Ester" wrote:
"Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will.
Do that, and no other shall say nay."
(Liber AL)

I cannot find in second quote anything about lynch mobs..

Yes, there is a lot Crowley forgot to mention in his writings..


   
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"Walterfive" wrote:
A very dear friend and 3rd Degree Brother, the late Fr. Adam Rostoker, (Also known as Adam Walks-Between- Worlds, the Official Bard of the Church of All Worlds) wrote a wonderful piece in 1993, "From Whence Came The Stranger" for Green Egg Magazine examining this very subject. I would be happy to discuss it with you. Please read it here:

http://www.greylodge.org/occultreview/glor_002/stranger.htm

Frater Adam's Greater Feast occured under mysterious circumstances 11 years ago. His murder is still unsolved.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks for pasting the link to that book review, Walterfive. I read a good portion of it and it was informative. The mention of Heinlein brought me to this thread. I read one or two of his books over twenty years ago. The one that stuck with me was "Farnhums Freehold" which is probably the incorrect name. I'll look it up. He displayed racism in that book quite evidently. If racism, bigotry, prejudice, leads to dehumanizing an ethnic group which then leads to validation of delivering harm to them, that is one thing. When people are forced into repressing expression of discernment or discrimination. When people are forced into any kind of repression of thought of any kind, a back-lash will occur. It is immutable law that thought is force, energy. You cannot destroy energy. One might try to accumulate it, contain it, but if they are not going to constructively redirect it, they better have a super high power divinely constructed container for it.

That is not what I wanted to talk about. I wanted to go another direction altogether, and the above is what I type. This daggone site planted that automatic typing into my head. Can I blame it on that? I wanted to mention that the article was very helpful in illuminating to me a bit more of an understanding of what Thelema is. I've been approaching it like one might approach a large strange animal, which is injured; get close to it slowly, and quickly jump away at its slightest twitch. I've had a thread going in regard to A.C. just to guage a reading by the opponents and proponents. I wanted to defend him because I thought he was Scottish, only to find out he was an Englander. In short, I'm not quite sure why I am drawn back to his works time and again. One reason could also be the quality of those who study Thelema. Although at times many of them seem a bit arrogant, in that they seem condescending quite frequently. I can see where that might come from however, since they are so often villainized. Also, I'm a bit impersonal in receiving criticism, I have a teacher. I know criticism. If I thought Thelema held no value whatsoever, I would simply leave it alone. Of course, I'm not possessed by dogma. I won't believe anything without adequate foundation or intuition. If I'm told to believe something because it is written in this book or that book, I'll stifle a laugh and walk away.

Non omnis moriar


   
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