Relative to the O.P., considering the question reversed, "Is there a place for Thelema in Marxism?" which then begs the question, "Is there a place for Thelema in Fascism?"
I think Crowley answered both, he put his meddle in neither, and it is that neither neither, that one might find dignity above the fray.
Of course democracies would never force people to suicide themselves in war, but AC was not drafted for the trenches, and we know spies must lay some pipe, but there is no evidence he used his member in such a manner, for the OTO placed him above all terrestrial governments, even though he would indeed be a wanderer who liked to wonder about these things, as we do too, for this quote below from AC might be interesting to consider, particularly those who say stupid things, that might serve the maws of censorship against Thelema here in the age of forced silencing, from the left and right....So here is AC:
"I passed a delightful six weeks in the south. Political and social issues were of great interest. The standardized surface has overspread the south, but it has not completely smothered the old violence of passion and prejudice. The hatred of the Yankee and fear of the Negro are as great as ever. In the later case it has increased. The recent revival and nation-wide spread of the Klu-Klux-Klan is one of the most sinister symptoms of recent years." Aleister Crowley, Hagiography Chpt 80
What is most interesting to me in this is the term 'standardized surface" which is supposed to have "smothered the old violence of passion and prejudice" but has in fact spread it into a nationwide revival characterized by the "sinister" Klu-Klux-Klan, to which I would agree that the "standardized surface" might have opposite results, or rather just exacerbate a problem smoldering...in these days with absolute absurdity that it is politically incorrect to say every man and woman is a star, because no-one is allowed to use the words man or woman and to which we might all die saying "I am perplexed" excepting those who have and are doing the work...
and now a word from
and now a word from ...
... me (I Am)
particularly those who say stupid things, that might serve the maws of censorship against Thelema here in the age of forced silencing
I read the AC quote that holds hidden treasures, but merely found a simple monologue, similar to what HPB would rattle off, on the local state of the matrix, somewhere, that neither catches my attention nor reveals anything. He is merely expressing the common lingo of his (and her) day.
And what "maw of censorship against Thelema" is allegedly being served?
Relative to the O.P., considering the question reversed, "Is there a place for Thelema in Marxism?" which then begs the question, "Is there a place for Thelema in Fascism?"
Absolutely there is. The Italian Fascist Julius Evola wrote extensively on the need for a pre-Christain Pagan religion that would best suit a new Roman Empire. C.G. Jung proclaimed Hitler as the embodiment of Wotan the ancient warrior god. Crowley was just one more advocate for a romanticized pre-Judeo-Christain society in which the intellect takes a back seat to intuitive, or "magical" thinking.
Really? Thelema, as originally presented, is only engaged when one is doing their Will, which is the "Universal Will" of Atma. the Universal Self, and thus one's self is lost in the charioting. This is the same as wu-wei, or getting on with the Tao, dynamic dhyana, etc. Anyone who has entered this state (state, not a philosophy, religion, or non-profit fraternal order) knows what I am describing, and also knows that it is temporary (until proven effective, at will).
All other "Thelemic" considerations (such as commentaries, hierarchies, political affiliations, fascist or passive maneuvers, etc) are merely the qliphoth of the state.
Constant grounding of the state, and even the concept of the state, in political and/or mundane considerations by pessimists (pestiments) serves to fuck up all the higher considerations.
It pains me to announce that the threads have been infiltrated by agents, conscious or unconscious as the case might well be, of The Black Lodge.
Thelema, like all the other icons, is a state. Either one is in it, or they are not. There are no degrees of engagement - such degrees are merely levels of preparation. Temporary exposures within the levels of preparation reinforce one's internal CPS (Cosmic Positioning System).
Constant grounding of the state, and even the concept of the state, in political and/or mundane considerations by pessimists (pestiments) serves to fuck up all the higher considerations.
What about the purely theocratic states, or forms of government as expressed in Tibetan Bon-Po, Or the Ancient Egyptian dynastic governments where a definite hierarchy existed and still managed to maintain a deeply mystical milieu? The ability to pass on esoteric teaching from one generation to the next, either through direct teaching, or a collective consciousness passed on by genetics. The Black Lodge is an illusion, a scarecrow.
purely theocratic states
There is not, and never has been, such a thing. As long as men (or possibly women) are involved, it is hypothetical illusion.
However, I would be fully in support of such a system, of which anybody gets assigned acciording to their grade (as illustrated in A.'.A.'. and/or the Transhim system, or equivalents).
government as expressed in Tibetan Bon-Po
This might work. Please write the appropriate agency to set the change in motion.
Or the Ancient Egyptian dynastic governments
Where everybody did Pharaoh's will or got entombed prematurely.
The Black Lodge is an illusion, a scarecrow.
This is true. I often use the term in reference to anything that is weighted heavy on the materialistic side, especially globally-minded corporations that seek to impose their dystopian reality upon humanity ... which would be great, but there's no element of spirituality in it. So it, and it's tentacles, have earned my award of being The Black Lodge.
There is a minor brach in town, Thelemically-inspired and advertised as such, but there's no need to go into that again.
There is not, and never has been, such a thing. As long as men (or possibly women) are involved, it is hypothetical illusion.
How can that be the case? What about the Mandate of Heaven that was the both the religious and political foundation of Ancient China? By theocracy, I mean that religious institutions were inexorably tied with rulership. That is by definition a "theocracy."
Where everybody did Pharaoh's will or got entombed prematurely.
But Pharaoh was a god on earth. His will was the will of the gods. It was his/her responsibility to maintain the order of the cosmos.
I mean that religious institutions were inexorably tied with rulership. That is by definition a "theocracy."
That is, by definition, a fusion of church and state, which is prohibited in the USA because it is usedf to torture and kill non-beleivers. Since religion (pick any one) is made-up bullshit (no Shinola this morning), it has noplace in decisions made on the hard physical plane.
The only style of gov that I personally endorse is the one cited above where anybody in a "position of authority over anything" is properly rated according to initiatory standards.
Will is a state. Either you're in it (doing your Will), or you're not (Thinking about what might be nice). If you're in, none of these considerations matter. If you're not in, they all become problematic.
What about the Mandate of Heaven that was the both the religious and political foundation of Ancient China?
More bullshit from ancient China. If they had a heaven-mandate, they'd still be in charge. But Anicca-anicca, everything passses away. The Mongols, the Manchus, the Nationalists, and chairman Mao aal respectively scrubbed the Heveanly Mandate and made it into9 dust.
There is no Mandate of Heaven or divine Right orf Kings or any such thing. However, there are laws that dictate only tyhe fit shall survive (not the "fittest," merely the fit). I think I will pause now and have a fit.
[fit]
But Pharaoh was a god on earth.
Why do you keep pouring out this crap? Nobody was "a god." This is made-up power tactic crap. Smell the barnyard? Did you ever work on a ranch or farm ?
It was his/her responsibility to maintain the order of the cosmos.
Oh, please. Bring the smelly salts. I am beginning to feel phaint.
Yes, a certain belief system is involved. It is fecal matter. Did you know that some people in England think the royals are something special ? They used to know they were special because they (the royals) were similar to the Pharoahs (special - in charge of things).
ALL of thos mentioned above were/are people, with no special-anything except the location and circumstancesof their birth.
@shiva I never said that these things are objectively true. However, they did exist and the belief systems that they represented, whether they stood the test of time or not obviously influenced contemporary belief systems. If there were no Ancient Egypt with their pantheon of gods and beliefs, there would be no Golden Dawn, and certainly no Liber al vel Legis or a Ra-Hoor-Khuit. If there were no mandate of heaven, there would be no I-Ching, a system divination that Crowley was most enamored with, as you well know. If there were no Hinduism, there would be no Theravada Buddhism, another foundation of Crowley's teachings. By the way, how is that Black Lodge thing going?
I never said that these things are objectively true.
Then they are not practical, are they?
They are made up systems that are based on abstract non-realities, and they will rise and fall according to populatity or (more likely) imposition.
In pure Thelma (that is, when one is in the state of doing their Will, of which "they" are only a mindless, ex-static vehicle), there is no place for Marxism, Democracy, Fascism ... nada ... just wu-wei.
Now, of course, this thread deals with the mental application of Thelemic principles ... such as enacting rules or laws relative to individual freedom and individual restrain, and so particular known systems are brought in to compare, integrate, or discard ... in one's mind (because Thelema doesn't have much political clout in the world these days.
belief systems
Thelema specifically excludes belief systems. "Certainty, not faith." A Thelemite (of which there are but three grades) is a person who does the work and finds out what is true, for themselves, without reference to other people's ideas. All this other stuff is a Chesed consideration, and that's Olympus-high above the plane of this thread, at the moment.
By the way, how is that Black Lodge thing going?
Going? Well, they're going well. The forces of materialism are well-established on the hard plane. They always have been, you know. 'Deem ye not of change. All is as it ever was." Yeah, it's the same show, day after day.
If it falls within anybody's opportunity to make a change for the better, then they should exert their best understanding of Thelemic principles to nudge that change into play. They might even be tempted to exercise The Vice of Kings. Otherwise, all this wasted mental Chi, when one should be engaged in relief from time/space constrictions. This is not done by going, but by stopping.
In pure Thelma (that is, when one is in the state of doing their Will, of which "they" are only a mindless, ex-static vehicle), there is no place for Marxism, Democracy, Fascism ... nada ... just wu-wei.
Ah, I see. "Liber Al: Democracy dodders
Ferocious Fascism
Cacking Communism
equally frauds cavort all over the globe
They are hemming us in."
C.G. Jung proclaimed Hitler as the embodiment of Wotan the ancient warrior god.
Review your sources it wasn't Hitler, it was some other politician.
You're on your last warning eh? Walking on thin ice.
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
They are hemming us in.
Yeah. They are all systems for telling people what to do, sometimes eat or think, often what job to do, If we choose anarchy, they will call us 'Wild" or "hateful."
It is best to observe the 4th, most powerful, power of the
Walking on thin ice.
He doesn't intend disorder consciously. But he admits to obsession with dictators, and sometimes that entity takes over and he slides out onto the ice.
Currently, he is acting consciously, and he may even have been brought to realize that all these systems are just people starting out to do the right thing by the people, but soon being taken over by the same old dark forces of while I'm serving the people, what can I get out of it?"
Human nature, anywhere below the Abyss, is subject to corrosion. Remember when the Devil himself offered Jesus administrative control over all the planes? This, of course, was offered at Chesed, at the departure gate. Jesus said, "No, thanks," preferring crucifixion and release from this dreadful place. Petty bureaucrats and national leaders rarely say, No, thanks."
They never read the tale of Doctor Faust. Neither did I, but I watched it in the opera house. The oprah haus was The Shriner Auditorium in Lost Angeles. Maybe they did read it and decided to Make a Deal.
Aside from being silly, this whole scenario plays out within the pilgrim, every one of us, who is enjoying their particular garden spot along the path ... while looking for Jesus or his stand-in, rehearsing the bargaining session with the Devil, and keeping an eye out for that serpent that is said to be in every garden (of consciousness).
@david-lemieux Who is this "other politician" According to the book Aryan Christ by Richard Nolan, Jung was an enthusiastic National Socialist. At least at first. His opinion of Hitler changed by 1936. As far as my walking on thin ice, I'm used to it. I am the tight-rope walker between ape and angel.
They never read the tale of Doctor Faust. Neither did I, but I watched it in the opera house. The oprah haus was The Shriner Auditorium in Lost Angeles. Maybe they did read it and decided to Make a Deal.
You should. Goethe's Faust is sublime. My favorite is part is "Walpurgis Night" Did I sell my soul to the Devil? Who hasn't?
[quote data-userid="51639" I am the tight-rope walker between ape and angel.
Yes, between MTG and AOC.
HA.haha. Hahaha
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
@david-lemieux Good one my man! (but you have them in the wrong order) Beware, don't go off topic.
Did I sell my soul to the Devil? Who hasn't?
Do you mean Given up spiritual "power" (or ascent) in order to profit materially? There are some folks who have maintained a fairly clear record. One has to, you know, if they're going to get out of here.
Of course, nobody gets out physically. As UG tells us, The body always comes back. Until it doesn't. The thread is locked. But the consciousness is what gets out.
Do you mean Given up spiritual "power" (or ascent) in order to profit materially? There are some folks who have maintained a fairly clear record. One has to, you know, if they're going to get out of here.
I am afraid in my misspend youth, in a fit of melancholy and frustration, I may have believed that I asked the Devil, Satan, Ahriman, whoever to give me power to smite my enemies, swore my allegiance to him/it. I eventually lost my sanity. I can only hope that the travails of life might have redeemed me. The Devil not only takes your soul, but he also charges interest.
I may have believed that I asked the Devil, Satan, Ahriman, whoever to give me power to smite my enemies, swore my allegiance to him/it.
As many threads come down to you, I should call for the Moderator to smite your account ... but I beg the indulgence and dispensation of the Altar Admin and the Respected Readership to delve a bit further into this astonishing confession ...
Yeah. Okay, you you did a Faustian contract with the (believed) Devil. I have no problem accepting this, especially when we consider that the demi-urge is the devil, and we all have a spark of the demi-urge in us, and so we come to see how AC got out of his own contract to slay Jesus by become The Great Beast who is "The New Christ."
We all have a copy of TGB tucked within ... it's called the Id. It's associated with, and governed by the reptilian brain, which is at the core of everyone's sentience. It can take external form and appear, under certain set/settings, There is certainly a basis for the Faustian contract.
I eventually lost my sanity.
Oops! I did this, once, for a brief period of time, catalyzed by Sandoz. I completely understand the experience of paranoia. It is particularly awful. It was offered as a training tool by the cosmic initiation society, which then instructed me as to its cause, which is an inflated ego. You see, if one is important, there will always be (real) plots. But if one is just a serf or a pawn, but thinks it is more important than it is, the leveler will send illusionary plots, and one will earn a psychiatric diagnosis.
Fortunately, My encounter was brief, and I only earned a very brief, but equally awful, flashback one week later. After that, I was clean, and in all cases thereafter, they really were after me.
I note that you entered the contract in order to slay your enemies, so you were a right-winger even before contracting ... but simply lacked the wherewithal to accomplish such a strenuous feat.
The Devil not only takes your soul, but he also charges interest.
This is correct. The forces of materialism, their ultimate shrines being The Banks where the Gold is stored, do in fact charge interest if you want to play their game. Interestingly, most spiritual texts prohibit usury. Frater Aquarius would actually demonstrate a bit of emotion (disgust, distaste, contempt, that zone) when he told us, more than once, maybe three separate times, that the source of all evil was not money, but compound interest. I have examined that viewpoint repeatedly over the decades, and I can find no fault in its exclamation !
You would also probably agree with him. Did you enter into your agreement before you came across AC ?
@david-lemieux Just disregard them as the ravings of a mad man in the throes of megalomania.
You would also probably agree with him. Did you enter into your agreement before you came across AC ?
Yes and no. I had a myriad of interests when I was an adolescent. Ancient Egypt, World War 2 (My dad had served in the 82nd Airbourne in WW2), and the occult. Obviously if you read enough books about the occult and its history, you going to run across Aleister Crowley. At the time, the name meant nothing. My main interest was Witchcraft. Not the Gardnerian sanitized Wicca, but the Francisco Goya vision of Witchcraft. I became familiar with the works of Montague Summers, who definitely shaped my perception of Classical Witchcraft. The idea of making pacts with the Devil was enticing to me. It seemed so simple, swear allegiance to a higher power another than God (After all, what had God done for me lately?) Eventually I got around to reading The Great Beast by John Symonds. Thus, my interest in all things Crowley began. But to answer your question. Yes, it was before becoming interested in Aleister Crowley.
Yes, it was before becoming interested in Aleister Crowley.
I see. So, actually, a lot of AC's ideas should provide a bit of relief. That is, Therion declared that Aiwass was Satan, the Devil, etc. By doing this, he demonstrates the possibility of cutting across the "difference" between God/HGA and Devil/Id, which is the ultimate mixture of "god and beast."
To pull this off properly, one really needs to have experienced dhyana with both God and the Devil, and so the bigger picture sees not a deal with the Devil, but a becoming of said Devil. This does not mean one then goes about raising hell, although this may be a by-product of such a becoming. You see, one needs all the Chi from Hell and all the power of the D'.', to get out.
This means one harnesses the power of the Id ... or if you want a more feminine metaphor, try Kundalini. These are all the same thing - the fiery serpentine force of the first chakra, down below.
@david-lemieux Just disregard them as the ravings of a mad man in the throes of megalomania.
Who you? Seriously, you mean you and your post, right?
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
Anyway, anyone who might think that I am "off topic " Just read the preceding comment.
You seem absolutely incapable of taking advice about your misuse of these forums. I have given you numerous warnings.
You're account is closed.
Owner and Editor
LAShTAL
Sic transit gloria Bufo.
-------------------
*"Thus passes the glory of the Toad."
With the emergence of Anonymous51639 I suppose that number squares the circle so to speak... in a failure of sorts...though I thought Shiva's non-teaching might be the lesson, that the former and now Anonymous may find of lasting value...of such an invitation to work...
Now for some reason I can't help but think of the significance, or pathetic insignificance, of AC's act of animal torture one summer day up in New Hampshire....Cruxifying a frog, or was it a toad?...Presently I believe that Mike Tyson is a champion concerning the partaking of "Gloria Bufo", with hits that too pass away...
Now since the OP is about a place for Marxism in Thelema, I think one line of investigation might be found in consideration of primitive christianity before aka Jesus was trademarked; of the act of sharing food and shelter, cooperatively treating the other as one's self, and thus it is in relation to an economic appraisal of the Abbey of Thelema, where the "us" are called Thelemites, did live communally; before Lord Beaverbrook and the yellow press screamed and on such orders the fascists broke up the party; that answers might be found, or hopefully, if it matters, some good discussion.
Cruxifying a frog, or was it a toad?
"Now, frogs being the dinner of snales ... " (parafrazed).
It was a frog. Later he made fun of it by writing, "He crucified a toad ..."
I will now ask if the frog was a Marxist or a Thelemite? in order to bend the trend back towards the original topic.
it is in relation to an economic appraisal of the Abbey of Thelema, where the "us" are called Thelemites, did live communally
Thank you for turning the bend, saving the thread, and not evoking the D'.'
The economics of the Abbey are complex (even though they were simple: Broke!). I am able to provide meaningful commentary as I have personally been involved in creating and sustaining "communal" establishments in the city and in the wilderness that operated under "Thelemic" guidelines.
Obviously, Therion & Co just packed up (probably not much) and moved into the Cefalu pad, without an enduring source of income. Thus things fell into the zone of "donations accepted." It should be pointed out that all photos of the Abbey show skinny people. This, ipso facto, demonstrates that the donations were meager.
Well, this went on for two or three years, so at least the Ark didn't sink - but here is my first economic observation: Aleister Crowley seemed to be devoid of common business sense.
He moved out onto an island in the Med to build a prototype for The Law of Thelema Established on the Physical Plane. I have noted, through trial and error, that such removals into rurality soon find a certain amount of strain due to lack of funds.
In contrast, we find Gurdjieff, with is band of followers moving from town to town, in search of "Remarkable Men," where they would set up a "Fixit Shop." Yes, the followers were tinkers and handypersons who repaired anything. They had a source of income, as everybody has stuff that would work if it was fixed, and thus he shows an example of the business sense that is really convenient.
I once sat in audience with Manly P. Hall as he spoke for an hour on having some basic survival skill/trade in one's bag. He cited the King who was proud because, by golly, he could shoe horses.
A prototype of a society needs to have a certain amount of business sense. This is why a second Beast must arise to implement the program ... because the first one was devoid of practical applications in the world of commerce, trade, services, etc.
Please do not confuse my notifications withe the Borg-Beast now arising. As the candidate moves forward on the Path, he or she is accompanied by A Shadow.
I used to hang out with a guy. I guess he was a psychopath, he used to murder frogs in the local pond area by using a very powerful catapult. His father was a policeman, he (my associate) got busted for climbing into the attic of public toilets with some other loon and spying on ladies relieving themselves. Unfortunately for him one of those ladies got suspicious and phoned one of his father’s workmates. Crowley would've dug him I guess.
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
Crowley would've dug him I guess.
AC killed a frog, and masturbated a lot.
I don't think that we can reasonably conclude from these facts that he "would've dug" all frog-killing whack-off artists.
AC killed a frog, and masturbated a lot.
I don't think that we can reasonably conclude from these facts that he "would've dug" all frog-killing whack-off artists.
I must add that they, at the time were probably not old enough to whack off. I think they grew out of that pre-pubescent delinquency phase, I lost touch with them after I was targeted with the catapult.
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
Apologies for double post but I don't think any of 'the gang' were ever really badly busted even those who went on to join football hooligan 'firms' or even the patchouli- oil stinking 'Black sabbath' biker-head types (known at that time in the U.K. as 'sweats') . Then again 'the sweats' tended to become bourgeois pretty quickly. However I'm pretty sure that two of those rocker girls would have probably gone on to become whores (well, economically speaking that is.)
Actually, no, there was one martial arts nut with severe acne whose Management level father had pulled strings to land his unemployed ass a postman job. Soon he made the papers though for opening up the public's letters looking for credit cards etc. I'll keep it thread- relevant and blame capitalism.
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
Karl Marx is mentioned in the Book of Thoth, under the "Fool Card" in the section"The Great Fool of the Celts (Dalua)" wherein AC speaks of humanity always looking for a savior, and where he says that salvation can not be obtained by reasonable means...
The sentence is:
"The law of the Lord Chancellor will not serve; the law-giver maybe an epileptic camel-driver like Mohammed, a megalomaniac provincial upstart like Napoleon, or even an exile, three-parts learned, one-part crazy, an attic-dweller in SoHo. like Karl Marx." The Book of Thoth
[T]hree-parts learned, one-part crazy....
A description that, of course, might possibly also apply to some other folks too.
Some might even so describe a certain British brewing heir and minor poet.
↑[T]hree-parts learned, one-part crazy....Ignant replies ... A description that, of course, might possibly also apply to some other folks too. Some might even so describe a certain British brewing heir and minor poet.
Shiva complains ... I have worked very hard to reach the 51/49 flip-flop pivot. That is, it is possible to be 51% out, while retaining 49% in the ancient and accepted matrix, now being modified before our eyes, with the capacity to invert/revert to 49/51.
Although the 51[%] out can have various names, such as neurosis, psychotic, schizophrenia ["split mind"], it is the same non-matrix-regulated zone that the mystic enters, the martial artist demonstrates, and the individual encounters as he or she enters wu-wei.
so, really, when one is out, it's up to the in-matrix 49% as to how this is handled, and whether one gets a diagnosis or a recognition of far-out attainment.
The true line we all must walk, not condemning anyone to an imperative, is referenced in the quaint saying, In the world but not of it.
When any vehicle gets tuned-up and running (at high frequencies), the one-quarter crazy designation can easily run up to 93%, which in my feeble estimation is where Therion was operating while at Cefalu. And poor Nietzche, he apparently hit the 100% out mark, and at that level, one loses control of the vehicle, unless it has been thoroughly grounded in asana, pranayama, pratyahara, and dharana - for then, we see, the empty vehicle can fool the doctors ... rather than exhibit signs and symptoms of mental disturbance.
Yeah, it's a matter of leaving a disciplined or undisciplined child at home alone, or even (especially) a dog. If one gets out, but the vehicle wobbles, there is trouble hither homeward. Neglect not the basic practices.
Then there is the matter of psychological imprinting at an age so early no one can remember the causative factors, wherein one is impelled to act out, to bring to life, some archetypal entity or paradigm - such as Beaty and The Beast.
Yes to all that.
I was being too polite to point out that few indeed of us, and few anywhere, can aspire to 3/4 learned-ness like either Marx or AC, and even fewer here are only 25% crazy.
No.
No
No is a primary number, 120, same as On. In this instance, it is uttered/painted on a blank wall without context.
No.
A perfectly reasonable response to a totally unreasonable question.
What we have in this thread is an example of "confusing the planes". The OT question reveals its plane-confusing absurdity when we replace the two proper nouns with descriptive phrases:
Is there a place for an economic/social science theory about how ownership of the means of production influences history [ie, Marxism] in a metaphysical/spiritual practice aimed at stopping thought [ie, Thelema]?
We can quibble about how exactly to define each term (and i make no claim to have definitively done so above), but, regardless of the precise definition of each that we finally arrive at, it is pretty clear that they are systems that are operating on different planes.
it is pretty clear that they are systems that are operating on different planes.
Yes, this is obvious ... with overlaps.
Let us call the two systems Max and Ale. Max is downside in hard matter, while Ale is purposely moving away from (getting out of) said matter into nothing. The overlap comes in when the state of nothing is applied to a vehicle in motion, which we know as Wu-wei.
Theoretically, the wu or the wei would have no interest in hard matter, except to avoid it head-on when flowing.
The "confused planes" concept to which you refer can also be found within the Crowley paradigm: In the beginning, and for about a decade, he was the pure "get out" promoter (A.'.A.'.); after that, A.'.A.'. waned while O-Tong-O, which deals with fraternal and social concepts (no work required), took the driver's seat.
When describing the Tong system, he used the term aristocratic communism. Yeah, at the IX*, it operated as (almost) pure communism. That is, all IX* members were equal co-owners of the Order; they personally owned nothing, having given it all up to the Order, which then supported them at the level of their original station at the time they gave it all up. Having lived this type of life, I recommend it.
The (almost) part comes in two versions, as usual ...
a) a IX* has no income or wealth, so they must hassle those "below" them for funds to conjure their rather high dues, which are payable in advance.
b) Regardless of the "equal ownership" by all IXs, they held no voting power as they were governed by a X* (originally elected by the IXs as an administrator), who was appointed by an OHO, who held the power of absolute dictator over all matters, large and small.
Well, this was the Reuss, Crowley, Agape, Solar, McM ideal. Anyone may read about it in The Scriptures, namely The Constitution and The Tong Rules Book.
As if this were not enough, no degrees have any formal work requirement or curriculum (except Solar Lodge).
Well, that's the way it was set up. In operation, it was a joke. IX-degrees were handed out as battle promotions for catching a moment of dictatorial benevolence, with little or no say in the Order's direction, moving forward.
All this went before the Great Transition. All this, in scope, in aspiration, and in theory, died with McM. The New World Order, risen from the Ashes of the Tong, that at least pretended to be communistic among its aristocrats, quickly wrote a New Constitution and look at it now. Those that see thee shall think thous hast fallen - these words were intoned by Louis T. Culling IX at the wake of Frater Aquarius IX.
Thelema on the way out has little to do with Marxism.
Thelema "coming in" has its moments.
Consider these quotes (cherry- picked perhaps) ;
Marx said ,"religion is the opium of the people,".....and Crowley (when probably on opium) wrote/proclaimed that, " We place no reliance On virgin or pigeon; Our Method is Science, Our Aim is Religion.” It depends what we mean by 'religion' in each quote. Do both quotes rail against the patriarchal priest as mere shame-peddler and anti-reformist? Not necessarily, I'd say that Marx was dismissive of any mystical experience and probably e.g. saw methods of prayer and Yoga as pointless ascetic escapism undertaken by muddled casualties 'of Capitalism'. Unless their samadhis led to them e.g. collecting money for striking factory workers. What did Marx get high on? Probably nothing but that's irrelevant to the thread...or is it?
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
This is a kind of old thread, that has gone on for quite a long time. There have been many other quite similar threads over the last 7-10 years. This thread has recently led to one ban and anonymization, of the poster formerly known as the Toad.
My politics are no secret to anyone here, but they are not why i am here. My views are not everyone's, which is fine by me, not being a Nazi or totalitarian. I don't feel the need to seek converts here. I also don't think there is, at this point, much left to be said about this topic, or about the (largely nonexistent) relationship between Thelema and earthly politics. There is also a new Guideline to consider:
Please keep political discussions or comments off the community.
So unless and until anyone says anything really provocatively stupid, i am going to sit this one out. This should easily allow me to take a break for as long as a day or so.
There is also a new Guideline to consider:
Please keep political discussions or comments off the community.
Yes giving one's case for one's support for this nor that politician is a bring down but in his Confessions, AC gives a condensed summation of the main problems facing humans;
1. their attitude to sex
2. redefining how to educate the young (or anyone).
3. economics.
How can anyone discuss economics without recourse to political science? Money is forged from a particular social structure and it's inherent social organization.
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline