How can anyone discuss economics without recourse to political science?
I never took Pol Sci, and the gunners in that curriculum all had obvious character disorders, including mildly-restrained aggressive domination tendencies. But I was forced to attend the Gov" class, which I passed. Political Science is not a pre-requisite for
The trick (or siddhi) for remaining within The Guardlines is to make every point linked to AC or Associates or Philosophy ... or ... look at it from an abstract, metaphysical viewpoint using Thelemic or 777 terminology.
But if someone wants to discuss current events, without those links or methods I just cited, or their equivalent, they are being politely ("Please") asked to knock it off. This request follows the principle of the Magick Circle, the study of which may lead to enlightenment.
How can anyone discuss economics without recourse to political science?
I just want to point out in case anyone wasn't aware, that going back to the roots of the subject in the 19th century Economics was originally known as "Political Economy".
(By stating the above, I have no wish for that to be interpreted as a vote either in favour or against the proposition, and I am pretty much disinclined to want to get any further involved in this antiquated thread and certainly so at the present time.)
Hasta la vista,
Norma;N Joy Conquest
(By stating the above, I have no wish for that to be interpreted as a vote either in favour or against the proposition, and I am pretty much disinclined to want to get any further involved in this antiquated thread and certainly so at the present time.)
You echo my sentiments.
We have been asked to please not discuss politics. There is no voting provision provided. Let's drop it and get back to the real AC ...
You echo my sentiments.
We have been asked to please not discuss politics. There is no voting provision provided. Let's drop it and get back to the real AC ...
I did , I was referencing the summation of the pressing problems facing humans as outlined in the end of his Confessions. What I never said was that he proposed that Thelema is the solution to those problems....hence the reason why I started this thread.
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
Crowley talks about social class all the time. This subject is painful for many occultists who are employing occultism as an escape from the painful and determining realities of social class. Sadly for them, the facts and the sociology is inescapable. We see this plainly in the ways that working class and middle class people both struggle with occult material and with each other.
Thelema is a very complex and sophisticated system. On the one hand, working class people lack the education and accumulated cultural capital to understand it. Rather than work to rise to meet the material, they struggle to make it come down to their own level - with predictably sad results. Middle class people, on the other, have the education and cultural capital to grasp the material more firmly. But, lementably, their class values reject occultism and Thelema on many levels. These contradictions cannot be sorted out or addressed without a social class analysis.
How anyone thinks they can reconcile a fundamentally aristocratic and individualistic approach with a collective morality and goal seems very strange to me. But if I was a leftist who was attracted to the occult and conflicted about it, I might think something like this project was possible.
Spoiler alert: It isn't.
Thank you for your contribution. Your discussion of class and Thelema is interesting. You are correct that AC very often discusses class, but seem somehow oblivious to the fact that the predominant theme of these discussions is his intense resentment at not, in fact, being an "aristocrat".
Thus, you need some justification for the claim that Thelema is "fundamentally aristocratic". "Individualistic" i will give you, for, in a sense, this is so; of course, it is also totally wrong, too, since individual Will is but a glimmer in the Star-Sponge.
Another claim that needs some context and evidence is that "leftism" somehow inevitably involves "a collective morality and goal ". You may need to study up on the history of anarchism, and other anti-collective, and anti-morality, leftisms (of course there are also arguably collectivist, and moralist, expressions of anarchism).
Yet another dubious statement is that anyone who does not agree with your political views must be "attracted to the occult [but] conflicted about it". This claim seems to me to be rather demanding some explanation, and perhaps even some evidence for it being true. Why must i be "conflicted" about an interest in the esoteric if i also disfavor exploitation of workers by those whom the state privileges? Such "conflicted" leftists are, of course, also wrong, because you are right.
Thirteen days ago, i entered a period of silence in this thread, saying "unless and until anyone says anything really provocatively stupid, i am going to sit this one out." I predicted that "this should easily allow me to take a break for as long as a day or so", whereas it was actually damn near two whole weeks.
I should clarify that i do not consider your post actually to be "provocatively stupid", but rather arrogant in its (under-argued) magisterial tone, yet simultaneously rather uninformed.
What I never said was that he proposed that Thelema is the solution to those problems....hence the reason why I started this thread.
Well, yes, he proposed Thelema as the solution to all problems. But when it comes to politics and economics, AC's views have been rather thoroughly examined, here, and they are mixed-up, contradictory, and ineffective. If we examine his financial life, we find either a yogi who is unattached to funds, or a dunce. Since he displayed, later in life, in his relation to Agape the Lodge in Califo, that he was NOT unattached funds, then apparently he was a dunce in economics ... so where does that leave us ? Pick one ...
1. Pit called Because
2. At a Loss for Words
3. Way in over our heads
Can we distinguish between 'descriptive" Marxism and "prescriptive" Marxism? I think Marx and his students can be excellent at describing conditions and revealing the flow of forces. In terms of what they think we should all DO about this? That's another issue.
Crowley talks about social class all the time. This subject is painful for many occultists who are employing occultism as an escape from the painful and determining realities of social class. Sadly for them, the facts and the sociology is inescapable. We see this plainly in the ways that working class and middle class people both struggle with occult material and with each other.
Thelema is a very complex and sophisticated system. On the one hand, working class people lack the education and accumulated cultural capital to understand it. Rather than work to rise to meet the material, they struggle to make it come down to their own level - with predictably sad results. Middle class people, on the other, have the education and cultural capital to grasp the material more firmly. But, lementably, their class values reject occultism and Thelema on many levels. These contradictions cannot be sorted out or addressed without a social class analysis.
How anyone thinks they can reconcile a fundamentally aristocratic and individualistic approach with a collective morality and goal seems very strange to me. But if I was a leftist who was attracted to the occult and conflicted about it, I might think something like this project was possible.
Spoiler alert: It isn't.
Working class people lack education? One needs 'accumulated capital' to understand Do what thou wilt. Oh, ok. Class is such a vague term anyway so how are you defining 'working class' or 'middle class'? . Rather than work to rise to meet the material, they struggle to make it come down to their own level - with predictably sad results. You saw a lot of that in your experience? Sad results eh? What sort of 'sad results'?
Middle class people, on the other hand have the education and cultural capital to grasp the material more firmly? What's this fantasy-idea that you somehow have to be oozing with cash to be able to stretch your body in some yoga position or read a bunch of stuff that's all free online anyway? The fact is most university-educated people are not educated or flexible enough to even bother to study disciplines that fall outside their own chosen field <read as 'economic role'> especially when it comes to modern history or history per se. The upper middle class income groups are riddled with bimbos and himbos.
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
Working class people lack education and one needs 'accumulated capital' to understand Do what thou wilt. Oh, ok.
This is reference to Thelemic Evangelism, wherein the glad word is spread throughout the populace. This is an OTO function.
The other version is not involved in spreading the word. It is a general requirement that pilgrims tak a student under tow, not a buch of students, and not the neighborhood. This is A.'.A.'. stuff.
Everyone will have to learn, the hard way, that spreading the word is different from gaining altitude, although the two remain mixed all the way up, because we need to eat.
What's this fantasy-idea that you somehow have to be oozing with cash to be able to stretch your body in some yoga position or read a bunch of stuff that's all free online anyway?
Keith418 is a high-ranking member of the OTO who occasionally drops in here. He is obviously referencing external Thelema, which I have allowed to drop below the threshold of consciousness, and I wish you well in your dialog relating to the matrix.
The other side of the moon coin as where one, obviously, does not need a penny to perform internal Thelema.
Working class people lack education?
In the US, and many other places, this is indisputably true, by and large, and of course there are many exceptions.
One needs 'accumulated capital' to understand Do what thou wilt. Oh, ok.
That isn't what he said. He said one needs "accumulated cultural capital" [emphasis added] to read AC.
Cultural capital: Not $, but the ability to understand the numerous, very multi-cultural, often obscure, and extremely varied topics, authors, ideas, etc that AC's work references, eg the Bible, Confucius, Hermes Trismegistus, John Dee, Shakespeare, Principia mathematica, etc etc etc. I don't think this claim is at all debatable, dude is correct here.
Also, most "middle-class people", and certainly most recent "university graduates", are not even close to "oozing with cash". Rich folks are the ones "oozing", right? Middle-class folks merely aspire to ooze.
The several chips on your shoulder about being working class, and not being a university graduate are showing here, david. As you yourself illustrate, one need not be middle-class, or a university graduate, to take ideas seriously, but it helps.
Clearly i have my disagreements with dude's post, as i have noted, but i don't think your points here are very good.
I do not believe it is relevant to speak of someone's educational level here, (and may be hitting below the guidelines belt), or to claim that the working class in the U.S. is "indisputably" lacking education, when by law, compulsory education is budgeted with property taxes paying for purported literate teachers and facilities...
The public school system in America is predicated upon an actual Thelemic presumption, provide children with basics of literacy such that they can learn to do and be what they want to do and be, where that presumption is found in the question: What do you want to be when you grow up? A question intended to then situate an internal drive to learn within the student.
I do not believe either that Thelema needs be appropriated by arguments of the "cultural capital" type that presupposes that a segment of the population are not literate enough to understand as the example given is: "eg the Bible, Confucius, Hermes Trismegistus, John Dee, Shakespeare, Principia mathematica, etc etc etc."
First, like Crowley, literacy in America was based on the only book in the home, the Bible....and Shakespeare was not confined to an ivory tower, but basic high school curriculum intended as a basic means of understanding such to situate one's inner desires, and to create a fortification of capability, to make the leap towards doing one's will.
I think in a sense the so called higher grades, beyond Daath, present a metaphor for a certain leap that is required and which involves not an affirmation of cultural capital or lack thereof, but an affirmation of a certain primal and inherent nature of one's self, of pouring everything into the task. Unlike the instinctual naturalness of a bird building a nest or beaver a dam, culture seems to be about breeding ego's to which appearance in the cultural capital sense, which includes capital as money and capital as being able to read the New Yorker or Crowley, can be a great hindrance and leave one in abyss...
by law, compulsory education is budgeted with property taxes paying for purported literate teachers and facilities...
This "compulsory" (forced) education is to train all units with basic skills so they can read, rite, and do arithmatic. Historical and cultural thoughtforms are impressed, repeatedly.
I believe (a gentler word) that the issues under consideration, here, involve higher education. The compulsory education does not include subjects such as logic, philosophy, historical references to Ankh, AC, HPB, Plato, Levi, etc, meditation, the Tree, comparative religion. That sort of thing.
Everybody gets the basics, thos who go on to intermediate degrees do so because they want to, or their parents/sponors want them to so.
I believe (a gentler word) that the issues under consideration, here, involve higher education. The compulsory education does not include subjects such as logic, philosophy, historical references to Ankh, AC, HPB, Plato, Levi, etc, meditation, the Tree, comparative religion. That sort of thing.
Everybody gets the basics, those who go on to intermediate degrees do so because they want to, or their parents/sponors want them to so.
Yes there are so many parents out there saying, join the A.'.A.'. or out of the house...
I think you are confusing institutions, magickal colleges with regular colleges....perhaps wishful thinking!
Also a basic secondary education up through high school, while not explicitly offering logic and philosophy courses, will provide the proper antecedents through geometry, science and math without inducing an existential crisis as might be found on college campuses...leading the confused soul to some lonesome stacks in the library where maybe a copy of the Secret Doctrine or whatnot might be gathering dust...and then realizing that no faculty wants to hear about such content...
[
In the US, and many other places, this is indisputably true, by and large, and of course there are many exceptions.
[
One needs 'accumulated capital' to understand Do what thou wilt. Oh, ok.
[/
Cultural capital: Not $, but the ability to understand the numerous, very multi-cultural, often obscure, and extremely varied topics, authors, ideas, etc that AC's work references, eg the Bible, Confucius, Hermes Trismegistus, John Dee, Shakespeare, Principia mathematica, etc etc etc. I don't think this claim is at all debatable, dude is correct here...
The several chips on your shoulder about being working class, and not being a university graduate are showing here, david. As you yourself illustrate, one need not be middle-class, or a university graduate, to take ideas seriously, but it helps.
I do have an Hons Degree actually but anyway a chip on my shoulder? Pot calling kettle black considering your many political posts about how the rich wreck the economy.
I get where you're coming from,you want your prophets passing entry exams for Cambridge and attaining chess trophies. OK, cool but Crowley's other big shame (apart from sex and his social standing) was the fact that he sold books on The Tarot, astrology and how to be a mystic or how to summon angels and demons to 'make things happen'. That puts him.on parr with that other guy who received a holy book (illiterate goat-herd) and the likes of Annie Beasant (or should that be 'peasant'?)
Now, about that book he received, the book is bigger than the man who was an intellectual Nietzschean snob. Where in the book does it advise the reader to get it right by sharpening up your algebra and your ability to write dissertations on Shakespeare etc?
Where does it advise the reader to elevate Reason and the Ruach?
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
I do have an Hons Degree actually
When did you get this Hons degree, and where? For non-Brits, he is saying he has an undergrad degree.
Strange that you have never mentioned this before, in the face of the numerous times, over 12 years or so, that i have urged you to take some university classes.
your many political posts about how the rich wreck the economy.
Can you please provide a citation to even one single time when i have done this? Thanks.
you want your prophets passing entry exams for Cambridge and attaining chess trophies.
Umm, yeah, sure.
Where in the book does it advise the reader to get it right by sharpening up your algebra and your ability to write dissertations on Shakespeare etc?
Where does it advise the reader to elevate Reason and the Ruach?
Very difficult to reconcile the new claim that you have "an Hons degree" with this contempt for education, something you have often expressed.
AC was a very well-educated guy, as you note. Pro-reason advocacy includes the famous "the method of science...." His A.'. A.'. system in fact requires writing a dissertation.
At least there is no political content in your post, so i am replying. You are, i guess, currently in one of your periodic right-wing, anti-working class, moods, which is why you are sticking up for the views of drive-by right-wing posters.
"The Book announces a new dichotomy in human society; there is the master and there is the slave; the noble and the serf; the 'lone wolf' and the herd.
"(Nietzsche may be regarded as one of our prophets; to a much less extent, de Gobineau.) Hitler's 'Herrenvolk' is a not too dissimilar idea; but there is no volk about it...
"The 'Master' roughly denotes the able, the adventurous, welcoming responsibility. The 'slave': his motto is 'Safety first,' with all that this implies. Race, birth, breeding etc. are important but not absolutely essential factors."
- Aleister Crowley
"This is as I have always held, our great Asset: Thelema is the only possible answer to communism."
- Aleister Crowley
Deep down, most people have a metaphysics of equality that is upstream from their political opinions and positions. Instead of questioning the origins of this metaphysics and set of values, or seeing its actual nihilism at play in the world around them, they seek to make Thelema conform to it. Then they get frustrated trying to bang a square square peg into a round hole and quit.
"This is as I have always held, our great Asset: Thelema is the only possible answer to communism."
- Aleister Crowley
Since you quote this assertion of Crowley's with such apparent approval, perhaps you'd like to explain why Thelema is "the only possible answer to communism". Or was there no such thing as individuality prior to Crowley and Thelema?
I noted as to your previous post in this thread
i do not consider your post actually to be "provocatively stupid"
This new post, however, is absolutely "provocatively stupid".
A couple of cherry-picked quotes from AC, that ignore all the times he expressed very different views and thus indicate you have succumbed to the illusion that AC had any coherent or consistent politics (read Pasi, as you clearly have not), coupled with assertions rooted in 1) misunderstanding de Toqueville, and 2) quoting someone called Linker of whom i have never heard, and also 3) quoting Dorothy Sayers, of all people, Christian author of trite aristocrat-worshiping mysteries?
This is the best you can do?
People trying to marry a Holy Text that characterizes people as "Kings" and as "slaves" with egalitarian metaphysics is a perfect example of the kind of "inner conflicts" that render this community so silly and ineffectual.
The AA and the the OTO (as well as smaller grouplets and sects), start to look like the classic joke about crossing a Swede with a Norwegian - the result is a "socialist who wants to be king."
People trying to take literally a Holy Text composed in the 20th century that characterizes people as "Kings" and as "slaves" is a perfect example of the kind of inability to comprehend AL that renders many Thelemites, and the (c)OTO, so silly and ineffectual.
The duplex "AA" and the (c)OTO start to look like the classic joke* about crossing a "libertarian" with a Nazi - the result is a "conservative".
Did you know that political discussion is banned in this forum?
---------------------
*Your "classic joke" makes little sense-both Sweden and Norway are constitutional monarchies with generous enough social spending to qualify as "socialist" to trogs like you. Of course, that was the point of the "joke" on Twin Peaks- to make "Benjamin", the character who tells it, look like a moron. This, like, one imagines, a great many things, went over your head.
Imago Viva Dei, man made in the image of God is a very old concept.
The Law is for all, extends to all of mankind.
The notion of "kings" and "slaves" can be interpreted from a psychological perspective relative to Liber Legis. (i.e. simplistically- if one is not doing one's will one is a slave)
Claimed egalitarian systems in practice have demonstrated non egalitarian governing bodies...inclusive of meritocracies...
People trying to take literally a Holy Text composed in the 20th century that characterizes people as "Kings" and as "slaves" is a perfect example of the kind of inability to comprehend AL that renders many Thelemites, and the (c)OTO, so silly and ineffectual.
I like this. Because - in my observation for decades - there are quite a lot of Thelemites seemingly attracted only by that "king" thing in the first place (and in addition many many non-Thelemites are attracted to the new right-wing/fascist movements because they promise exactly that: "Once we are in power again we will punish those that are in power now and we will be able to do what we so much would like to do if we had power and doing it without remorse and out of superiority"). And of course that "king" and "superiority" thing is the one big obstacle to enlightenment. I have encountered so many cos-play Thelemites, dressing up like AC with huge bow-ties, silly hats, walking sticks, in tweed and what-not and feeling superior. I would really welcome this fashion-wise if it was all about individuality, but too often it seems to be just about being dandy and superior (and even a little AC incarnated). I have never read or met Keith418 (except when he engaged in some online fights I had with Thelemic Trump-ists - he wasn't on my side) but I do remember that his Facebook pics were mostly him sitting with a cigar and a glass of wine or brandy in some supercool supercultural superdandy European city in France or Italy (initially there is nothing wrong with that). I would imagine he is not exactly satisfied with the current OTO leadership that *tries to appear* inclusive, socialist, pro-vaccination, pro-LGBTQIA+ (sorry if I missed a letter somewhere) and highly anti-fascist.
But - if I read you correctly @ignant666 - I think that anyone who takes Liber L seriously should never take it literally.
Yes there are so many parents out there saying, join the A.'.A.'. or out of the house...
Two problems arise: One - joining the A.'.A.'. and getting out are the same thing.
Twooth - Aspiring candidates continually report how their email inquiries are not answered, and they cannot find any open door to the A.'..
In such a case, the bewildered eternal wanderer may apply for admission to the local community college, or its equivalent, and not only expect an email reply, but also a warm welcome and a bunch of papers to fill out.
I think you are confusing institutions, magickal colleges with regular colleges....perhaps wishful thinking!
Magical Colleges? No, i was referring strictly to mundane higher education (a standard term for "college" or "universality" or their equivalents. The issue on board is the mundane educational status o9f a laborer, which is often basic, but not non-existent. "Higher" Education, at its highest, not only allows, but requires that one break the mold at the PhD level by presenting a dissertation (thesis in Olde England) that adds to the p[resent body of knowledge.
None of tyhis is necessary to enter or tread the Path of Liberation.
Also a basic secondary education up through high school, while not explicitly offering logic and philosophy courses, will provide the proper antecedents through geometry, science and math without inducing an existential crisis as might be found on college campuses
I had my first existential crisis in 4th grade. It was about mathematical equations. We had to memorize several different equations and then apply them in sample radom situations. I could not perform the tasks. My mind broke down (in the Hod compartmentI did not catatose or drool). I presented this problem to my father, a very high-level engineer who worked for the Military-Industri8al complex that Eisenhower had not warned us about, yet.
He offered up ONE version of basic algebra that solved ALL the stupid individual equations. I was skeptical. I did not full grok or gnow what I was doing. When the test time came, I remembered no equations (but the ONE solve et coagulae bestowed by my parent). Reluctantly, I followed the rules of insertion and inversion of the didital figures from hell ...
I passed.
your many political posts about how the rich wreck the economy.
I have not seen these (posts). If this is true, and I agree with the sentiment, then we will see how he responds. Inherited wealth, is the key phrase, in my
That puts him.on parr with that other guy who received a holy book (illiterate goat-herd) and the likes of Annie Beasant (or should that be 'peasant'?)
This is correct. AC told us that one could just go up the middle pillar and get out. But he proclaimed the virtue of visiting all the side spheres so as to have a wider range of knowledge to impress the masses (highly paraphrased by me, but stilol expressing what he meant). The same applies to mundane education. You find out about that when you ap0ply for a Manager's position at the Walgreens Drug cabal. "Bechelor's Degree required" (any fieldm any school. Oops - A college degree in any field can get you a job? Yes. No mysticism involved.
your many political posts about how the rich wreck the economy.
Ignant responds - Can you please provide a citation to even one single time when i have done this? Thanks.
It is as I feared it would be. My memory and brain appear to be still intact. Personally, I read the Commie Maniest at your suggestion to another person, and I came away with the idea that people of inherited wealth are the enemy. Since this coincides with the paradigmae of other things to which I subscribe, I was and am impressed.
However, nowhere in any of these paradigmae are the inheritees accused of "wrecking" the economy. The economy is their financial bloodstream - they stand accused of controlling and manipulating the economy for personal or corporate profit, while denying the populace, both educated and dumb, access to a smoother ride through life.
Where in the book does it advise the reader to get it right by sharpening up your algebra and your ability to write dissertations on Shakespeare etc?
The dissertation will not be about William the playwriter - it will be about your view of the universe and how to fix it. That will be in the graduation chamber at Chesed. You will not need a college degree to get into the chamber, but you will never get out until you present your concept clearly.
explain why Thelema is "the only possible answer to communism".
I will inject one item of possible interest . It was related by members of Agape Lodge, where were there at the time (the '30s), watching the mundane chess players moving pieces on the board, like now, again ...
Roosevelt had a crashed economy on his hands. In order to pull out of the depression, he needed a new system. He boiled it down to three choices. The (ethically-designated) Banking System, a Thelemic-type System, and Communism.
The fact that the term, semi-Thelemic was used indicates that I was not under consideration, but rather something along the lines of OTO, probably Masonry.
Doesn't matter, does it? He chose the Banking System, and everybody reading this is involved in it in o9ne way or two others. I understand it is now undergoing demolition to pave the way for your new digital passports and Borgia Bank Accounts.
A couple of cherry-picked quotes from AC, that ignore all the times he expressed very different views and thus indicate you have succumbed to the illusion that AC had any coherent or consistent politics
I thought this was common knowledge. But Keith drops in so rarely, he surely has not perused the threads of many quotes, where AC is shown to be absolutely inconsistent in his political views. Nobody or anybody can quote any political statement by AC and be hit immediately with several opposing statements, quoted by folks who have read all the statements.
People trying to marry a Holy Text that characterizes people as "Kings" and as "slaves" with egalitarian metaphysics is a perfect example of the kind of "inner conflicts" that render
this community so silly and ineffectual.
Egalitatian (equalarium) - Affirming, promoting, or characterized by belief in equal political, economic, social, and civil rights for all people.
This cpmes down to "equal metaphysics<" which is some idea about how everybody is equal, which is obviously untrue at these lower planes. Metaphysically even is unequal until the big one. The big samadhi sees everyone as distinctly different, but with no ability to differentiate the others as you are not there and they are you.n I hope that's not too confusing.
... this community so silly and ineffectual.
But, you see, no you don't see so I will explain. There are those individuals here who enjoy being silly,from time to time, for The Universal Joke has been laughed at.There is no effect being generated here. You are confusing Tong Evalgalism with quiet discussion. We don't care about beintg effective.
Christ on a stick ! You don't even know where you are.
You don't even know where you are.
@keith418 - I wish to append a note to my previous brusk statement: Of course you know where you are (or not here, if elsewhere). Let me present what we do here. We dialogue (or tri-, quad-, etc). Everybody here is an individual. If they hold external ties to some group effort, hardly anyone ever mentions that ... although the heads of a couple of those external groups, which are known as lineages, post regularly.
If I were to quote the official statements, we would see "LAShTAL is not a teaching site ... an occult site ... a Thelemic site ... It is dedicated to the life and work of A.C. and his philosophy and his associates." Yeah, how can one discuss Thelema then? There is a forum, Thelema, where The Word and its sometimes contradictory Commentaries - that sort of thing.
Why people even post here that are not Thelemites. Anyway, these wayward posters, who sometimes find time to break away from administerin their lineage(s), come here regularly to trade AC info, to claim the grade of 8=3 or Magus, Ips are even mentioned, and to to fight over minute details 'til one seems ready for judicial commitment
And of course that "king" and "superiority" thing is the one big obstacle to enlightenment.
Yeah. It isn't very Buddhist is it ? "Mercy be let off" and "Compassion is the vice of kings" give one a reason to pause and assess - Like AC did. He especially didn't like parts of Ch 3. Keith418 is right. It is silly to mix Royalty with Equality. But then everybody's free to bring up new solutions (for discussion and fighting).
When did you get this Hons degree, and where? For non-Brits, he is saying he has an undergrad degree.
Strange that you have never mentioned this before, in the face of the numerous times, over 12 years or so, that i have urged
Very difficult to reconcile the new claim that you have "an Hons degree" with this contempt for education, something you have often expressed.
AC was a very well-educated guy, as you note. Pro-reason advocacy includes the famous "the method of science...." His A.'. A.'. system in fact requires writing a dissertation.
At least there is no political content in your post, so i am replying. You are, i guess, currently in one of your periodic right-wing, anti-working class, moods, which is why you are sticking up for the views of drive-by right-wing posters.
They gave me the Hons Degree (undergraduate? What?) in the last decade of the 20th century. It's been mentioned here some time ago,you must've missed it.
I'm not anti-education, my book shelves say different ..I guess.
Anti working class? How you're getting that escapes me, particularly as you recently said that I'm a working class guy with a chip on my shoulder. What is 'working class' anyway? You're educated, you know that this isn't 1575 anymore, how are you defining the classes? Cleric, aristocrat, merchant and peasant? I know a guy with a PhD who is doing the same job with someone who literally can't read or write properly. My friend is a mailman but his dad was a university professor, what does that make my friend?
Who's this right-wing ignoramus I am supporting?
See, you as a politically-driven guy WANT class consciousness, most modern people are sick of such bring-downs. You didn't answer my other questions about AL but whatever. You said when did you say that the rich wreck the economy, am I conflating that with your last political post regarding how 'the economy always tanks under a Republiclan government'? OK fair enough, maybe you've got nothing against someone who has 7 or 8 figure bank accounts and yep we can't discuss political parties here any more.
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
'Democracy dodders.
Ferocious Fascism, cackling Communism, equally frauds, cavort crazily all over the globe.
They are hemming us in.
They are abortive births of the Child, the New Aeon of Horus.
Liberty stirs once more in the womb of Time.
Evolution makes its changes by anti-Socialistic ways.'
- Crowley, Introduction to Liber AL
What I find remarkable about this passage is how people still want to argue with it or dismiss it. In the 1940s, and towards the end of his life, Crowley again praised Ayan Rand and attacked collectivism. His Chapter LXXII in Magick Without Tears is very explicit about this.
These teachings in this text threaten the metaphysics most people have these days. Rather than seeking to question the prevailing status quo, and the ultimate values that formed it, they insist that they are right and Crowley was, somehow, wrong.
Okay. He says in the same book: 'You disagree with Aiwass—so do all of us. The trouble is that He can say: “But I'm not arguing; I'm telling you.” 'Instead of accepting this, nearly everyone continues to "argue." But what do they get when they argue? As far as I can tell, just a bunch of inner conflicts.
Wouldn't they be happier being "Goth Unitarians"?
They gave me the Hons Degree (undergraduate? What?) in the last decade of the 20th century. It's been mentioned here some time ago,you must've missed it.
OK, so AFAIK, "Hons degree" is Brit-speak for a 3-year BA/BS, aka Bachelor's degree, since almost all UK BAs are "with honors". A BA/BS is an "undergrad" aka undergraduate degree. Master's and doctoral degrees are graduate degrees, meaning they are undertaken by those who are college/university graduates.
I have a pretty good memory, as does google. A search for "'Hons degree' site:lashtal.com" produces exactly one hit- your post this morning that i am replying to.
Anyway, since it seems this is the first time this attainment has been mentioned here, which i will repeat is curious indeed given all the times that i have advised you to take some university courses, congratulations.
What is 'working class' anyway? You're educated, you know that this isn't 1575 anymore, how are you defining the classes? Cleric, aristocrat, merchant and peasant?
We can get fancy, but i think we will do ok for our present purposes with just two classes: bourgeois and proletarians. The bourgeoisie employ the labor of others because they are owners of capital, proletarians sell their labor or starve (sometimes evil socialists have taken measures to prevent literal starvation).
Who's this right-wing ignoramus I am supporting?
See the post immediately above this one.
To said right-wing ignoramus: Please alleviate your evident ignorance as to AC's incoherent and contradictory politics, and read Marco Pasi's Aleister Crowley and the temptation of politics before posting in this thread again.
Crowley [...] praised Ayan [sic] Rand
I'm sure you would not mind providing a citation, or even the actual quotation, here?
Wouldn't they be happier being "Goth Unitarians"?
You mention that AC says it is useless to "disagree with Aiwass".
Which parts of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law", and also which sections of Liber OZ, would you say provide the strongest support for your presumed right to dictate how others should live and think?
As to "Ayan" Rand and AC, Pasi notes that AC "read and liked The Fountainhead", citing to a 2012 book that i don't have, Netherwood.
I would love to read AC's opinion of this fatuous romance novel, and would repeat my request for an actual quotation of AC's words here.
As to "Ayan" Rand and AC, Pasi notes that AC "read and liked The Fountainhead", citing to a 2012 book that i don't have, Netherwood.
I would love to read AC's opinion of this fatuous romance novel, and would repeat my request for an actual quotation of AC's words here.
It's from a letter to Ethel Archer from March 26, 1947: "The Fountainhead is one of the finest books I have ever read, and my friends in America insist on recognising me in the main character - the architect who made good." cited in Netherwood, by 'A Gentleman of Hastings', London, 2012, Accumulator Press
Thank you; i guess we can only conclude that the poor old guy was in the throes of senile dementia in the last year of his life.
I am glad that you have responded to @Ignant666 's double standard in violation of the guidelines he likes to tout.
I will note from Page 5 of the thread his stating:
My politics are no secret to anyone here, but they are not why i am here. My views are not everyone's, which is fine by me, not being a Nazi or totalitarian. I don't feel the need to seek converts here. I also don't think there is, at this point, much left to be said about this topic, or about the (largely nonexistent) relationship between Thelema and earthly politics. There is also a new Guideline to consider:
Please keep political discussions or comments off the community.
So unless and until anyone says anything really provocatively stupid, i am going to sit this one out. This should easily allow me to take a break for as long as a day or so.
To which he did not keep silent...but engaged haranguing you about your educational level laced with political smears and innuendo while employing his double standard.
At least there is no political content in your post, so i am replying. You are, i guess, currently in one of your periodic right-wing, anti-working class, moods, which is why you are sticking up for the views of drive-by right-wing posters.
I suppose with so many thousand posts @ignant666 is an institution of the forum, and thus perhaps above the guidelines...but who knows~
ignant666 's double standard in violation of the guidelines he likes to tout.
Please specify what guidelines you imagine i am violating, as obviously i am anxious to comply with the rules. Certainly nothing you quote is even close to any kind of violation.
Feel free to report my posts to Paul if you think they break the rules, but i would also appreciate being told what you think i've done.
To which he did not keep silent...but engaged haranguing you about your educational level laced with political smears and innuendo while employing his double standard.
I remember the post very well, and seriously, your interprations are nonsense. Please report your complaints to the owner and administrator of the site, Paul Feazey
They are abortive births of the Child, the New Aeon of Horus.
You (he) got that right.
What I find remarkable about this passage is how people still want to argue with it or dismiss it.
Not here. Okay, evolution is a work. The problem is that as the wheels of evolution turn, some players sense the change, and they step in with artificial means to take advantage of the situation in order to gain more power or wealth.
It goes even deeper than that. As humanity itself (hoodwinked, of course - maybe bound or locked down) is looking around (peeking through the wink), sensing the light - but all they see is the planetary dweller on the (Paroketh) threshold.
Crowley again praised Ayan Rand
I didn't know that. This raises serious issue regarding my sanity, or his.
bourgeois and proletarians.
These foreign lingo words are too big for me. I automatically assume "upper" and "lower" are indicated. That is, there are the haves accompanied (at a distance) by the have nots.
As Keith points out, AL describes Kings and Slaves. If they are "Slaves of Because," that's okay ... but if it's "Servant Slaves in Bondage," then I must ask again: Have The Anunnaki taken over again ?
Of course they have.
... measures to prevent literal starvation).
I have searched for, and found, The Stone of the Philosophers, the Relatively-holy Guarding Angel, the City with the pointy quads, and other things so grand I cannot write about them ... but, for the life of me, I can never seem to be able to find the Welfare Office.
... presumed right to dictate how others should live and think?
As recently stated by Someone Who is not me (seriously): "These people are obsessed with "controlling other people." This could lead into an entirely new thread, but it would be off-topic, which it isn't - as all government systems include measures for controlling the people. I particularly like The Constitution of 1917 as an example.
i guess we can only conclude that the poor old guy was in the throes of senile dementia in the last year of his life.
This remains a distinct possibility. Especially considering the evidence presented (Rand). But LAShTAL is not a Medical-Advice and Diagnosis Site, so we better move on ...
To which he did not keep silent
It is interesting how all, or most, threads invariably come down to the spotlight shining on one or two unfortunate folk whose personality and character defects are placed under a microscope.
Anybody can change their mind, direction, and socks when the drift of the river changes.
Please specify what guidelines you imagine i am violating
I wondered about that. More problematic issues now arise. Controlling other people, a characteristic of The Blackest Lodge, is now onboard, and totally (more or less) on-topic.
Feel free to report my posts to Paul if you think they break the rules
I have so reported you, daily, for the past decade and a half. However, like the A.'.A.'., I never get a response and you are still here. I will therefore attack your slightest deviation from what I think is right/correct/noble - in any given variable moment. Let's startd with why you are attempting vto keep David honest and in full disclosure. Whaty is important is What is the exact title on said alleged degree?
Sorry to upset your sensibilities as to what constitutes a double standard, but obviously David Lemieux does not agree with Ignant666's characterizations of him, just as I found the remarks gratuitous and made in bad faith relative to the guidelines.
@hadgigegenraum - One more time: could you please clearly state what i did that you imagine violates the guidelines (of course saying what guideline i supposedly violated), or shut up?
I have a pretty good memory, as does google. A search for "'Hons degree' site:lashtal.com" produces exactly one hit- your post this morning that i am replying to.
Anyway, since it seems this is the first time this attainment has been mentioned here, which i will repeat is curious indeed given all the times that i have advised you to take some university courses, congratulations.
Thanks. I have said something like 'I have a degree' on this forum, possibly more than a few years ago. Admittedly I didn't wear it like a badge....I no need no stinkin' badge.... having said that it may've impressed that interview panel to take me off the unemployment list. Four years of consistent applied effort shows something I guess.
We can get fancy, but i think we will do ok for our present purposes with just two classes: bourgeois and proletarians. The bourgeoisie employ the labor of others because they are owners of capital, proletarians sell their labor or starve (sometimes evil socialists have taken measures to prevent literal starvation).
My dad's mate, a factory worker, saved enough to invest in a little allotment. I think he employed youngsters to pick vegetables for him. Does that make him bourgeoise? What about the owner of a 'chippy', he owns the capital i.e, big ovens and the kitchen facilities and employs staff. He can't afford to live in 'fancy areas' but he's still one of the bourgeoise?
. And of course that "king" and "superiority" thing is the one big obstacle to enlightenment.
Some twat (whether landowner, capitalist or worker) strikes you hard and low and you don't bitch about the sting too much? Yes? That makes you 'a King.' If not then that makes you a slave. Christ said likewise.
I suppose with so many thousand posts @ignant666 is an institution of the forum, and thus perhaps above the guidelines...but who knows~
As I pointed out recently, we are not allowed to rant about this or that political party's agenda but the tricky bit is ascertaining whether that includes innocent critiques of economic systems within a debate about Thelma and it's relative 'radicalism'.
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
. And of course that "king" and "superiority" thing is the one big obstacle to enlightenment.
Some twat (whether landowner, capitalist or worker) strikes you hard and low and you don't bitch about the sting too much? Yes? That makes you 'a King.' If not then that makes you a slave. Christ said likewise.
Please do not quote me out of context. My post was not about people acting "kingly" or having the "vice of compassion" or "accepting reality", it was about people under the illusion that Thelema will give them power they do not have but "should have". I thought it was pretty clear whom I was talking about. On the other hand you are free to show me those "Thelemites" who do not bitch about when being stricken (struck?).
To which he did not keep silent
@shiva: [...] Anybody can change their mind, direction, and socks when the drift of the river changes.
I join ig here in posting again on this thread after earlier suggesting it was irrelevant and antiquated I think was the term. I don't think the OT himself will have any problem with this though as David/Dom has often been similarly/ much more mercurial in the past!
OK, so AFAIK, "Hons degree" is Brit-speak for a 3-year BA/BS, aka Bachelor's degree, since almost all UK BAs are "with honors". A BA/BS is an "undergrad" aka undergraduate degree. Master's and doctoral degrees are graduate degrees, meaning they are undertaken by those who are college/university graduates.
FWIW, I took an M.A. (Joint Hons) in American History and American Literature - this was over four years as an undergraduate at Edinburgh University.
It didn't really 'open any doors' for me, but maybe I was trying them in the wrong street. (or country)
I am glad that you have responded to @Ignant666 's double standard in violation of the guidelines he likes to tout.
I agree that you seem to be making too much of this allegation without at the same time backing anything up with solid references.
Since it seems you have made a charge that ig has transgressed against the Guidelines you have the option of making it 'official' with Paul, but it may go against you if he thinks your doing so is vexatious or insincere. Either way though, to satisfy the readership here you need to produce evidence substantiating up your claims. The ball is over in your court, tennis-wise. Or, to use a poker analogy, you need to see him and raise the stakes, or fold (bluffing not being a viable option here).
"The Fountainhead is one of the finest books I have ever read, and my friends in America insist on recognising me in the main character - the architect who made good." cited in Netherwood, by 'A Gentleman of Hastings', London, 2012, Accumulator Press
Seems like senior members of the Agape Lodge might have thought so too?
i guess we can only conclude that the poor old guy was in the throes of senile dementia in the last year of his life.
@shiva: This remains a distinct possibility. Especially considering the evidence presented (Rand).
What are the main reservations against Ayn Rand/ The Fountainhead? I read it 30+years ago and found it quite entertaining and instructive in its own way particularly where it touched upon the sovereignty of the individual and similar thelemic-type themes (without saying I agree[d] with any specific opinion.) I would be interested in reading why she/it is in such apparent disfavour though.
Roosevelt had a crashed economy on his hands. In order to pull out of the depression, he needed a new system. He boiled it down to three choices. The (ethically-designated) Banking System, a Thelemic-type System, and Communism.
The fact that the term, semi-Thelemic was used indicates that I was not under consideration, but rather something along the lines of OTO, probably Masonry.
I couldn't find this reference (where this term was used), nor am I sure what it can mean?
These foreign lingo words are too big for me. I automatically assume "upper" and "lower" are indicated. That is, there are the haves accompanied (at a distance) by the have nots.
As Keith points out, AL describes Kings and Slaves.
I like it. If only more political/ socioeconomic issues could be reduced down to their basic constituent identity like this.
To take it further (or sideways), Kings=upper/haves and slaves=lower/haven'ts ?
If they are "Slaves of Because," that's okay ... but if it's "Servant Slaves in Bondage," then I must ask again: Have The Anunnaki taken over again ?
Of course they have.
Would anyone be in disagreement that to discuss this means engaging with conspiracy theory (which was a pet subject and central fascination and concern of RAW, who has his own board here) which subject is not outlawed in the Guidelines, unlike the discussion of politics. However in terms of the ramifications and effects of the An. that can't be very far removed away from its/their political fallout and legacy?
Some twat (whether landowner, capitalist or worker) strikes you hard and low and you don't bitch about the sting too much? Yes? That makes you 'a King.' If not then that makes you a slave.
What do you think makes you 'a King' - not "bitch[ing] too much"?
Christ said likewise.
Where did he say that? Didn't he say, "turn the other cheek" & "the meek shall inherit" [=prevail]" somewhere?
nJOY
Totally off-topic, but I never read Ayn Rand. Should I do it? Is it good/interesting/bringing-understanding/enlightening/important?
Totally off-topic, but I never read Ayn Rand. Should I do it? Is it good/interesting/bringing-understanding/enlightening/important?
I've read a small bit. Not The Fountainhead. I never knew Crowley had read it!
I can't offer a thumbs up or down but will add that the Marvel Comics Artist, Steve Ditko (co-creator of Dr. Strange, Spider Man etc etc), was an Objectivist (follower of Ayn Rand's School of Thought). He wrote and drew a series called "Mr. A" which is said to embody his personal Objectivist ideals. His views were conservative and stark whereas Stan Lee was liberal and nuanced (even while working on Spider Man together-they would later go separate ways with no small bitterness on Ditko's part).
At the same time, Ditko seemed to have a very disciplined single-minded vision of his art production. Perhaps there is a similarity to the notion of True Will in that he identified his Will and pursued it with an almost scientific precision.
We might say he was just a chain link away from Crowley. Ditko-Rand-Crowley.
I have not read the Fountainhead, the only book Vrowley to my knowledge ever ready by Ayn Rand, so I could not say luch about its literary qualities, but it is easy to see why it would be attractive to Crowley.
I you do not care much for Rand’s ponderpus and almost didactic prose (I have only read The Fountainhead by Rand and I have been told the prose is similiar), the classic adaptation with Gary Cooper playing the lead is descent.
It is about an architect who struggles at great personal cost against the forces of collectivist standards. A guy whose idea of success is not measured in terms of money, but manifestation of a singular vision of will.
The continued struggles and failures of the protagonist, Howard Roarke is contrastwd favorably against his «enemy», an architect who does not care for innovation but vacuously follows popular trends and consequently enjoys a great deal of financial success and respect from the populace and his peers.
Roarke on the other hand, in a way that reminds one of other characters that Crowley seems to have approved of like Ibsen’s characters Brand and and dr. Stockmann, only cares about expressing their singular vision in opposition to that of the collective. Their triumph is measured in terms of not bensing a lnee to the collective.
Like Atlas Shrugged’s protagonist, Roarke too delivers a long speech about the importance of the Ego (as Rand understood it) and opposing collective norms and demand for conventional success. Though a building by Roarke is eventually comissioned by his friend he never, if I remember right, became riich from it. The triumph is in measured in him mnifesting his singular will, not financial gain or approval from the collective.
In other words it adheres to ideas Crowley held dear throughout his life and the fact that he, at the suggestion of his friend Louis Wilkinson read it enthusiastically and recomended it to his followers in America who also embraced it enthusiastically, should not come as a surprise.
Nor should their and Crowley’s subsequent identification with the main character considering that Roarke was attacked by the tabloids in an concentrated effort to destroy what they in the book perceived to be a danger to public norms.
Incidentially Ditko was not the only Rand follower among comic creators. Frank Miller was also for a time a devotee, and his Martha Washington opus was dedicated to Rand. I believe he even quotes her favorably one of the issues in the second series, Martha Washington goes to war.
[
At the same time, Ditko seemed to have a very disciplined single-minded vision of his art production. Perhaps there is a similarity to the notion of True Will in that he identified his Will and pursued it with an almost scientific precision.
We might say he was just a chain link away from Crowley. Ditko-Rand-Crowley.
As a child I was a massive Stan Lee/Marvel fan and I appreciate Ditko's work but I don’t get how he was somehow 'single minded' in his work compared to the other Marvel artists who were all equally awesome.
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
I loved Ditko's "Objectivist" crime-fighter Mr A as a teenage comix fan, even though he was clearly nutty, and the comix were far more Randian lectures on society than normal plot-driven comix.
As to "Ayn Rand" (real name Alisa Zinovyevna Rosenbaum; she changed her name to Alice O'Connor on moving to the US and (from Russia) and marrying a man called O'Connor), she was even nuttier than Ditko.
Female sexuality in her work consists mostly of a desire to be raped by "heroic" men. Selfishness is depicted as the highest virtue, and it is the selfishness of an infant, always in need of self-gratification, and not yet mature enough to understand that sometimes making others happy can be the best way to make yourself happy. Society is basically a repressive force, where "the collective" oppresses "great men", and strangles their genius (this, and rape, is the main theme of The Fountainhead, which AC enjoyed so much).
Atlas Shrugged, her magnum opus and most famous work (AC died before it was published), is an adolescent revenge fantasy that depicts a "capital strike", where "great men", aka capitalists and engineers, petulantly withdraw their participation from industry/society. They leave behind the corrupt "looter" society, and live happily in a capitalist commune called "Galt's Gulch", after the heroic "John Galt".
Society, of course, is almost immediately on the verge of collapse, since it has been deprived of the wise guidance of these "great", "heroic" rapists. The helpless workers and bureaucrats (aka "looters") realize just how useless they are without the firm hand of a boss to discipline them. Galt is kidnapped by the corrupt socialist government, who realize that only with the guidance of a "wise", "heroic" rapist can they survive. He refuses to help them, they torture him, society collapses, the "Galt's Gulch" folks return to their natural roles running the world, and they all live happily ever after.
It is an incredibly turgid, boring, badly-written, didactic turd of a novel, that is the product of immense emotional immaturity, that somehow became the center of a cult. It is hard to imagine anyone who is not a 12-14 year old boy liking it. All Randians had to chain-smoke, because Ayn did; the remaining Rand cultists may well still have to. She got lung caner from doing so, BTW.
Rand hated "the collective", aka the "looters", and socialism so much that Social Security (which in the US means government-funded pensions for old people) was her main source of income for the last 6 years she was alive.
please clearly state what i did that you imagine violates the guidelines
Some folks are just fanning the flames of disorder, based on nothing at all.
Does that make him bourgeoise?
The enemy may be identified by two words: Inherited Wealth.
Nobody can run their little business and compete with the inheritees. Anybody who gets a good thing going, will be bought out, or suffer.
Google and HP are two examples of a goodie being bought out from above.
American History and American Literature ... It didn't really 'open any doors' for me
Of course it didn't. There is no demand or need for people who are educated in areas that do not produce money.
Fr.'. LightBlazer embarked on a Philosopher trach. He got the Master's, but then realized nobody wants to hire a PhD philosopher ... so he took a 6-month course in computer programming, and that opened do9or for the rest of his life.
I have a lot of degrees. Some are so worthless (Doctor of Divinity) that I will sell them to you to help fire up your coal- or wood-burning stove. Others seemed to open one door or another. My point is, and surely you realize this, but we must lay it out for the younger pilgrims - It depends on what/which degree one earns, as to what kind, and how many, doors get opened.
maybe I was trying them in the wrong street. (or country)
American history and Literature do not have doors open anywhere on the planet, except for teaching and advising Russian spies how to think and speak. There is a difference hither homeward between taking courses one is interested in and courses that open doors. Duh We all know that, now.
I agree that you seem to be making too much of this allegation without at the same time backing anything up with solid references.
dit-to
Seems like senior members of the Agape Lodge might have thought so too?
Is that so? Please name these heretics. I ask because I never hear of Ayn Rand before 1990 when a door opened for me, a big one (Academic Dean and Federal Financial Aid Administrator), It was opened by the pres of a college who was a disciple of the Rand philosophy. There was an excessive amount of Chi devoted to making sure nobody (including me) ever saw the financial statements. But I figured I better read Rand so I knew what I was dealing with. I encountered mush.
I couldn't find this reference (where this term was used), nor am I sure what it can mean?
You will understand that this was an oral transmission. The AI may have missed it. At the time, I didn't know what it meant. The term was either semi-Thelemic, or Thelemic-like. Obviously, it was not Thelema per se, the speakers were obviosly hedging their words, and I can only guess that it was Masonry or some sem- or like- it. This would not be unusual. The USA was founded by Masons, some of whom might have been Christians.
As noted, it doesn't matter. He chose the banking system, which is now crumbing in our pockets.
to discuss this means engaging with conspiracy theory
I merely drop the word. I do not intend to discuss it further, here. I have indicated that it is in process of laying it all out in the Series D compilation. Presently, 10D (Kether) is being assembled. Since 10D sums up the entire Series from 3D (Malkuth) to 9D (you know), it (10D) will also be published as a full-color, expensive, hardback edition that few will buy. I have decide that a pdf version of 10D will be offered here, at the usual price of 61, as the Jews call it.
I never read Ayn Rand. Should I do it?
I would say, Don't waste your time. But I am only a dip that stats reading something and puts it down if it doesn't flow correctly, according to my values and insists, so I cannot comment on a book I never finished.
Objectivist (follower of Ayn Rand's School of Thought).
Yeah. It's like skeptical thelema. There is a disdain for abstract ideas above Paroketh.
I have not read the Fountainhead
I have only read The Fountainhead by Rand
You are presenting a paradox or a puzzle for us to solve?
What do you think makes you 'a King' - not "bitch[ing] too much"?
That sort of thing yes. You have constitution and King. Circuit Five i sat the centre of the constitution.
Where did he say that? Didn't he say, "turn the other cheek" & "the meek shall inherit" [=prevail]" somewhere?
nJOY
Inherit the earth yes, like a King or Queen inherits what they inherit.
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
As a child I was a massive Stan Lee/Marvel fan
You're not anymore?
I appreciate Ditko's work
When I first encountered it, it seemed to lack the intensity of other artists I was struck by (such as John and Sal Buscema). However, over the years, I have come to not only "appreciate" Ditko's art but to understand its genius and power. I think he is..."Amazing." 🙂
I don’t get how he was somehow 'single minded' in his work compared to the other Marvel artists who were all equally awesome.
I wanted to reply to this remark and clarify what was thinking. Ditko was a strange man. As I understand, he was extremely private to the point of secrecy. I don't believe he was ever married and he had no children. He would travel from home to his studio to work on his art each day and did so as if it were a 9 to 5 job. He was extraordinarily disciplined in his routine. He didn't "burn the midnight oil." He kept office hours.
I've known comic artists, aspired to be one myself, have drawn various comics over the years and you are quite right: to be competent in this field, one must have practiced and trained extensively, whether that be at study hall desks in high school or in art school-and one can expect to spend hours and hours into the night at the drawing table. So yes, there is a driven commitment. But Ditko's application of that commitment was akin to an office worker.
There is a story where someone was granted entry to Ditko's very private studio and saw him using original pages from his early Spider Man work...as cutting boards! He was slicing through these historical works with a razor blade as if he were simply making coffee. When his horrified guest reacted to this, he expressed that there was no value in these things. They had served their purpose which was to make a mass produced periodical. They weren't to be regarded as "works of art." They were a means to an end-which he had fulfilled.
So he saw things like his character "Mr. A." Black and White. Clear cut. And he acted upon his personal assessment of his artwork with sharply defined discipline. This would seem quite in line with Crowley's opening of Magick in Theory and Practice. Ditko discovered his "Will" and structured his life to fulfill it with an almost machine like precision. Rand was the one who pointed at "One Star in Sight" for Ditko.
Again, I find it very interesting to discover here (in this thread) that Crowley not only knew of but read and then promoted Rand.
@kidneyhawk, while not a fan at all of Ayn Rand myself, I certainly see how AC might have thought otherwise, and how several artists were inspired by her ideas. I think you are spot on regarding Ditko.
Another comic creator that was inspired by Ayn Rand is Peter Bagge. He even wrote a one pager about his relationship to her, her devotees and her detractors:
You're not anymore?
Great question,I think i started reading Marvel Comics before primary school. I stopped around aged 12. I kept a lot of them, somei wish I'd kept. It was a great introduction to,well, everything, philosophy, sci-fi and mysticism/fantasy.
The comics seemed magical,I was a child, living off the backs of my parents, pre-puberty, I look at them now through different eyes obviously. I wasn't really into the latter adult ' graphic novels' scene apart from Love and Rockets.
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline