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Justice and injustice in Thelema

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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

The Temple believes that drugs all lead to false experiences so members are not allowed to use them.

This seems to be only rarely,if ever, enforced,though. 

Just as I feered A right-wing, fascist dictatorship that restricts what it's members can(not) do. Another Shinola-Tong.

By the way, any Moslem is prohibited alc. All these Tongs are the same: Do this - Don't Do that! I wonder what percent of Muslims, Setians, and Citizens of first-world countries, just ignores the Law?

Posted by: @katrice

Well,I'm a Black Soror, and probably a degenerate too

Confession is good for the Sol.


   
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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva

Just as I feered A right-wing, fascist dictatorship that restricts what it's members can(not) do. Another Shinola-Tong.

Their ideas have been an influence on me, but I've never been a fan of the organization itself.  I could say the same about Thelema vs the OTO.

By the way, any Moslem is prohibited alc. All these Tongs are the same: Do this - Don't Do that! I wonder what percent of Muslims, Setians, and Citizens of first-world countries, just ignores the Law?

For the Setians, probably a lot of them.  I think most of the rest just look the other way. 

 

Confession is good for the Sol.

Just being honest. 😉 


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

I've never been a fan of the organization itself.  I could say the same about Thelema vs the OTO.

Some Christians follow the simple Bible story. But many remain locked in a Universal Bureaucracy. It's never the basic principles that cause trouble, it's the org built up to "teach" (enforce?) those principles.

 


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

@david-dom-lemieux 

, Socrates, Glaucon, Polemarchus, Thrasymachus, and Cephalus are discussing the question, “What is just?”

Thrasymachus, one of the Athenian long-haired machos, wants to give a quick explanation:

say that just is nothing other than the advantage of the stronger. Well, why don’t you praise me?

First I must learn what you mean. You say the just is the advantage of the stronger. What do you mean by that, Thrasymachus? Surely you don’t assert such a thing as this: If Polydamas, the pancratist, is stronger than we are, and beef is advantageous for his body, then this food is also just and advantageous for we who are weaker than he is?

You are disgusting, Socrates. You twist the argument in such a way that you can do the most harm.

In short, the body builder may eat beef but what about the scrawny, do they need beef?  Well, no.  Thrasymachus could have spoken his mind and responded , 'F___ the scrawny, who cares about them?  Why doesn't he?  The reason is the crux of the (Socratic) dialectic method, he is trying to defeat (like some Homeric hero e.g. Achilles) Socrates with rhetoric  He's too dumb (full of passion and lacking in Reason) to see that he's taken the bait, logically he is out of his league and fears being exposed. What's his next move?  Curiously enough Thrasymachus champions the existence of all governmental systems including democracy..as follows;

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

. Don’t you know, Socrates, that some cities are ruled tyrannically, some democratically, and some aristocratically. And isn’t in each city the ruling group the master? And each ruling group sets down laws for its own advantage: A democracy sets down democratic laws; a tyranny, tyrannical laws; and the others do the same. And they declare that what they have set down—their own advantage—is just for the ruled, and if a man departs from it, they punish him as a law-breaker and a doer of unjust deeds.So let us find out whether what you said is true. While I too agree that the just is something of advantage, you add to it and assert that it is the advantage of the stronger, and I don’t know whether it is so.

Is Thrasymachus is now trying to trap Socrates by asking him to clarify in the aforementioned analogy whether the beef-eating body builder is the only one with the advantage?  What about when the demos rules the city? Plato though, had a low opinion of the demos, of democracy per se because it was democracy that murdered Socrates the just and virtuous (well, forced suicide)  Socrates counter attack is the wishy washiness involved in 'the ruled' trusting that rulers actually know what they want.    

 

 
 
Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

S:  Now tell me: Don’t you say, though, that it is just also to obey the rulers?

T:  I do.

S: Are the rulers in their several cities infallible, or are they such as to make mistakes too?

T:  By all means.

S:  They certainly are such as to make mistakes too.When they put their hands to setting down laws, do they set some down correctly and some incorrectly?

T:  I suppose so.

S:  Is that law correct which sets down what is advantageous for themselves, and that one incorrect which sets down what is disadvantageous? Or how do you mean it? As you say. But whatever the rulers set down must be obeyed and carried out by those who are ruled, and this is just?

T:  Of course.

S:  Then according to your argument, it is just, to not only what is advantageous for the stronger, but also the opposite, what is disadvantageous.

Thrasymachus is furious.

 

That is, those who rule must be of sound mind but 'the ruled' must have the power to demand that .  It was relevant then and more than 2000 years later it's relevant now.  This fact is a springboard for the latter introduction of the idea that rulers must be specially trained physically- fit philosophers who accept the fact that Homer and his ilk were basically obsolete  idiots.  I guess Crolwey in his lucid moments would agree that such a just political scientist at rule doing hir True Will would benefit the all. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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hadgigegenraum
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@david-dom-lemieux 

Well your "ruled and ruler" speaks of measure and measurement, certainly one of he symbols of masonry, but who places the ruler, and how might the compass be fixed?.... In Thelema the ruler and ruled are one and the same person, and thus justice and injustice is a personal issue, unless one is beholden to some form of the "Tong" as @shiva has warned in various threads.  The "Tong" can include 'scripture" itself, to which thus various initiatory interpretations represent either traps, or paradoxes with which one might test one's character and overcome...thus the Book of Lies serves as a means of navigation against an "Alice in Wonderland" world of illusions, or real world, "off with their heads" real politic, to which Socrates serves to confound the young scions of the dynasties, be it TV shows or the real Fondi.

A confounding that serves to break various barriers, to which, as i have noted your interest in Robert Anton Wilson's work, the methodology is for freedom, for examining belief systems and habits thereof...

Do unto others under Thelema is to provide the Law of Thelema to all...it would also encompass compassion as a vice of kings, and of striking low and hard against those who would betray the law...usually by military procedure that might unsettle their world view....thus the proper application of the "war engine" and the god 'set and setting' is one analogy with reported effects! Martial arts analogy of letting the aggressor become victims of their own aggression work as well...

 

 

 

 


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

those who rule must be of sound mind ...

This would be a good beginning. Other options simply promote downhill slides.

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

'the ruled' must have the power to demand that

"Must" is an imperative. "Must" is also conditional on insane rulers agreeing to allow the ruled to "demand" anything at all. This dichotomy represents the battleground between capital and labor, between rulers and the ruled.

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

physically-fit philosophers

"Wisdom says be strong  - Perdurabo says Pick the sport/activity that will keep you in the best condition ... and do it (parafazed). Now the A.'.A.'. curriculum requires control of the body (asana), which is a static (not moving) state. There is no requirement for dynamic (moving) motion, seeing if the candidate can do whirlies without falling down.

 


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva

This dichotomy represents the battleground between capital and labor, between rulers and the ruled.  

What?  In e.g. Pol Pot's Cambodia as well? 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva "Wisdom says be strong  - Perdurabo says Pick the sport/activity that will keep you in the best condition ... and do it (parafazed). Now the A.'.A.'. curriculum requires control of the body (asana), which is a static (not moving) state. There is no requirement for dynamic (moving) motion, seeing if the candidate can do whirlies without falling down.

 

 

Physical limitations

    1. It is desirable that you should discover for yourself your physical limitations.
    2. To this end ascertain for how many hours you can subsist without food or drink before your working capacity is seriously interfered with.
    3. Ascertain how much alcohol you can take, and what forms of drunkenness assail you.
    4. Ascertain how far you can walk without once stopping; likewise with dancing, swimming, running, etc.
    5. Ascertain for how many hours you can do without sleep.
    6. Test your endurance with various gymnastic exercises, club swinging, and so on.
    7. Ascertain for how long you can keep silence.
    8. Investigate any other capacities and aptitudes which may occur to you.
    9. Let all these things be carefully and conscientiously recorded; for according to your powers will it be demanded of you.

   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @katrice
Posted by: @shiva "Wisdom says be strong  - Perdurabo says Pick the sport/activity that will keep you in the best condition ... and do it (parafazed). Now the A.'.A.'. curriculum requires control of the body (asana), which is a static (not moving) state. There is no requirement for dynamic (moving) motion, seeing if the candidate can do whirlies without falling down.

 

 

Physical limitations

I was hoping someone could reproduce a manipulated photo of Kant's head on Charles Atlas's body here. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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katrice
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

I was hoping someone could reproduce a manipulated photo of Kant's head on Charles Atlas's body here. 

image

 

the best I could do on short notice  😉 


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @katrice
image

 

the best I could do on short notice  😉 

Hahaha, love it!

Posted by: @shiva

This dichotomy represents the battleground between capital and labor, between rulers and the ruled.  

Sorry pal but if you're going to sneak in some Marxism on a Crowley/Thelema site you're going have to deliver the goods..or maybe take it over here;  

Is there a place for Marxism in Thelema? – Thelema – LAShTAL.COM Forum

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @david
Posted by: @shiva

This dichotomy represents the battleground between capital and labor, between rulers and the ruled.  

What?

I dunno. The context has been lost as to what was referred to a "the battleground." I searched upward, but couldn't find even who I was responding to. Errors abound. Timelag.

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Sorry pal but if you're going to sneak in some Marxism on a Crowley/Thelema site

I do not deliver Marxism. Have you lost your mind ... like Nietzsche? 

deliver ("sneak in" diminutive) insights as to where people confront their dualities, internally.


   
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hadgigegenraum
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Posted by: @shiva

I do not deliver Marxism. Have you lost your mind ... like Nietzsche? 

deliver ("sneak in" diminutive) insights as to where people confront their dualities, internally.

First sentence...LOL

Second sentence...Excellent and the thread is back on track!...that 'sneaking in'... sort of like pointing out that someone has already swallowed the sword of justice....and the blade is sharp and the dualities...well in most old aeon systems the realizations come after, or rather just before the samadhi that the blade has cut through the fleshy and other veils of dualistic maya....!


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

, Socrates, Glaucon, Polemarchus, Thrasymachus, and Cephalus are discussing the question, “What is just?”

Thrasymachus, one of the Athenian long-haired machos, wants to give a quick explanation:

say that just is nothing other than the advantage of the stronger. Well, why don’t you praise me?

First I must learn what you mean. You say the just is the advantage of the stronger. What do you mean by that, Thrasymachus? Surely you don’t assert such a thing as this: If Polydamas, the pancratist, is stronger than we are, and beef is advantageous for his body, then this food is also just and advantageous for we who are weaker than he is?

You are disgusting, Socrates. You twist the argument in such a way that you can do the most harm.

What's going on there?  Thrasymachus defines 'Just' as 'nothing but the advantage of the stronger' and then Socrates asks him to consider that  Polydamas (part of a minority, a strong man) 'benefits' from eating beef so would non strong men (the majority) also benefit from eating beef?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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herupakraath
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Posted by: @gurugeorge

Re. the topic itself, Maat and all that, the obvious thing would be that this Aeon is rather unbalanced (Force, Fire) and the Aeon of Maat would represent a rebalancing of forces of some kind.

There is no specific mention of an Aeon of Horus or a Crowned and Conquering Child in Liber Legis; those concepts, like the Aeon of Maat, are an attempt by Crowley to explain aspects of Liber Legis using available mythological symbolism and concepts; at best they are hypothetical, and of questionable value in terms of accuracy and necessity. 

The second chapter of Liber Legis, which is attributed to Hadit, the worshiper, is preceded by a chapter attributed to Nuit, a compassionate, maternal presence that is synonymous with water, and requires no blood sacrifice. The chapter that follows that of Hadit is attributed to Ra-Hoor-Khuit, a stern, war-like father figure that insists on being worshiped with fire and blood. The concepts represented by the first and last chapters form a balanced ideological contrast that is meant to be embraced by Hadit, and used to define his universe. Accordingly, before the viability of an Aeon of Maat can even be entertained, one must determine exactly which ideas are to balanced by Maat, and how they might differ from those defined in Liber Legis, without succumbing to redundancy, which is unlikely.

Justice in the modern sense, is defined by small groups of individuals that make rules for the rest of the populace to live and die by, which are enforced using military force, and rely entirely on the concept of might makes right. In the universe of Thelema, where no has the right to interfere with an individual in pursuit of their will, the herd mentality required by modern justice systems simply cannot exist, thus demonstrating how the concept of Justice is antiquated, unnecessary, and possibly even detrimental to human progress.

 

 


   
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katrice
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Posted by: @herupakraath

Justice in the modern sense, is defined by small groups of individuals that make rules for the rest of the populace to live and die by, which are enforced using military force, and rely entirely on the concept of might makes right.  

That sounds more like law than justice.


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

That sounds more like law than justice.

Yes, it does. But that is what The Dept of Justice does - it enforces Laws. Judges make rulings based on precedents (sometimes), which is merely what some other judge decided in a Isimilar (but never exactly the same).

Justice (Adjustment, Balance) is an abstract concept. It can be practical when changing dollars into pesos, or weight out a pound of anything legal or illegal, but in human-social terms, the best that can be done is to make Laws (no shortage of them) that seem to redress an imbalance.

One of the earliest such attempts involved the neighbor's dotter. If a man snuck in and slept with the dotter, and she became with child, then the man must pay the father-neighbor six goats and a partidge in a pear tree. This is Justice? Ha. No, it's Law.

The members of The Yellow School understand the world is imbalanced, and that they are unable to influence it, so they seek inner balance. That's where Atu VIII comes in, and it's up there, on an abstract tramway above the Veil of Paroketh ... probably not admissable in mundane courtrooms.

 


   
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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @katrice

That sounds more like law than justice.

Yes, it does. But that is what The Dept of Justice does - it enforces Laws.

 

But if the topic is Justice and injustice in Thelema,why would mundane law even enter in to the topic? Law is a base concept, and only sometimes Just.  Justice is a Cardinal Virtue, and therefore, as you said,an abstract concept. 


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

But if the topic is Justice and injustice in Thelema,why would mundane law even enter in to the topic?

It just did ... so there's an Elephant in the Room. We noticed it. 

Again, it depends (as usual). If we're talking about pure internal Thelema, then Justice is Adjustment. see the card, which is the process of getting balanced (which is a secret trick for getting out).

But then there's the OTO-style of settling external unbalances with Grand Tribunals and Electoral Colleges. But even they (in the olde days) knew enough to forbid members from suing each other in mundane courts. This changed a bit over 3 decades ago, and OTO, Inc started suing everybody in outer courts. Well, they changed the Constitution and the By-laws.

Anyway, it depends on whether one is thinking karmic adjustment or retribution against one's neighbor. Similar principles, but two different realms. One is (ultimately) real.


   
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hadgigegenraum
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@david-dom-lemieux 

What this means is that the oligarchy gets upset when it is suggested that eating beef is just because it seems to make Polydamas stronger, and thus could make everyone else stronger...Thus the "Just Us"  oligarchs like Karl Schwabb and Bill Gates, want to destroy the beef industry because it makes people and the economy strong, so they kill the cattle for the sake of the gaia, and tell people to eat bugs and lab grown meat, from their new factories... from the DNA of some celebrity so the masses through sympathetic magic can obtain charisma and glamour....

Hey look what just popped up on e-bay! Why a vial of AC's cum pills he made back in the 1930s in London....why the bidding is high as with some CRISPER wizardry, why soon calf of Crowley will be on the menu, though some prefer saute of brain in a fresh poppy sauce sprinkled with cocaine, the roast rump is not tough at all but marbled with an exquisite fat saturated with years of hash experimentation...it is said that the repast does not make one sleepy, but that irresistible coupling finds diners wanting to devour each other flooding perfumes...though various personality changes have been reported along with urges for cigars and chess, and a photographic memory that seems to confuse numbers with letters, and where short stories are dashed off in 49 hour marathons of dictation to damsels or diminutive sensitive poets, that seem to hang around...


   
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gurugeorge
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Posted by: @herupakraath

There is no specific mention of an Aeon of Horus or a Crowned and Conquering Child in Liber Legis; those concepts, like the Aeon of Maat, are an attempt by Crowley to explain aspects of Liber Legis using available mythological symbolism and concepts; at best they are hypothetical, and of questionable value in terms of accuracy and necessity. 

I don't know about that, the text specifically talks about the Great Equinox and the "double-wanded one" taking charge at the next one.  I'd agree that Crowley elaborated on it and used added terms, but the core idea of the built-in obsolescence of the work as a religious text, and its being replaced by something else in the future, there in the text.  (Indeed, that self-prediction of future obsolescence is something that sets Liber AL apart from all other founding religious books that have ever been, AFAIK, and gives it a very "modern" tone.)

Also, I'd say that the 3 chapters do lean towards "force and fire" on the whole.  Even Nuit, who's the "gentlest" of the three, has a few harsh words to say ("For these fools of men and their woes care not thou at all! They feel little; what is, is balanced by weak joys; but ye are my chosen ones.")  Although there's a difference in shading, the whole text is quite forceful, apparently contemptuous of non-elites, and "Fascistic" (not to get into that line of debate again, but you know what I mean, that's the reading most people probably take away from it).


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

@david-dom-lemieux 

What this means is that the oligarchy gets upset when it is suggested that eating beef is just because it seems to make Polydamas stronger, and thus could make everyone else stronger...Thus the "Just Us"  oligarchs like Karl Schwabb and Bill Gates, want to destroy the beef industry because it makes people and the economy strong, so they kill the cattle for the sake of the gaia, and tell people to eat bugs and lab grown meat, from their new factories... from the DNA of some celebrity so the masses through sympathetic magic can obtain charisma and glamour....

 

I think you're missing Socrates's point there.  Thrasymachus defines justice as just being the advantage of the Might is Right minority.  Maybe they are unhinged enough to risk seizing power from everyone.  However everyone else don't have the superior arsenal and are probably not inclined to want to seize power.  In other words one man's beef need is not necessarily for everyone.  It's a Socratic appeal to community or 'no man is an island'.  He could've said that unjust political pirates are not just, they just think they are.

Isn't it a matter of:

Human beings become muscular when they eat beef and pump iron.

Polydamas is a human being like any of us.

Therefore Polydamas (now muscular) pumped iron and ate beef.

That is, he's not special.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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hadgigegenraum
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@david-dom-lemieux 

Why i think you are perhaps correct that I missed Socrates point, but those in power, who understood Socrates point put him on trail, and he got railroaded, but did not run away from his city, or the verdict, but rather he took the potion of "justice' from the "just" and the hemlock did its trick and he died, or was rather murdered...sort of like the present mass extermination project against us.

So if justice is that which makes one strong, like beef, and thus death is the prerogative of the just, then the "just" need to be injected by their own potions!

Well some of their lackies have, rushed forward for the good of the people, and some are keeling over!

So does Thelema mean that karma is an operative principle...like Theosophy which spoke a lot about karma.

 


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

So does Thelema mean that karma is an operative principle...like Theosophy which spoke a lot about karma.

Karma, as we all know by now, is The Law of Cause and Effect. It is an operative principle in Thelema  (Liber Librae), Theosophy, and the [so-called] Laws of Nature. It (karma) operates in all theatres, regardless of the labels installed by clever definers.

 


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

@david-dom-lemieux 

Why i think you are perhaps correct that I missed Socrates point,

Well what was his point?  Is he 'moving the goalposts'? Does his point make sense?   

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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hadgigegenraum
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@david-dom-lemieux 

I think 'goal posts' denotes a line, not a point!

So what is your point or line, and what does Socrates have to do with it?


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

@david-dom-lemieux 

I think 'goal posts' denotes a line, not a point!

So what is your point or line, and what does Socrates have to do with it?

If you don't think the goal posts were moved then fine, I'm not sure either.   I think I was pretty clear in what i think Socrates meant with the beefeater analogy, if you can add to it then please do.  Advantage of the strong and what is advantageous to the strong.   Maybe it's all about the limits of language and Will to Power.   Socrates is imposing his version of the word 'just' on Thrasymachus who has a different view, there's an agenda, the agenda is that Plato and Socrates are trying disparage the Homeric Hero as education because they think that machismo for the sake of machismo can lead the entire City State vulnerable to invasion.   This is elaborated later on with the Guardians 'philosopher king' concept.    The weapon is the dialectic.   

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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hadgigegenraum
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@david-dom-lemieux 

Here is a relevant extract from the Apology

 

 

For this battle he led, Plato was hated, and his worst enemies were the Sophists. They were the leading current in philosophy, and all they did was declare that knowledge does not count. What counts is the appearance of knowing, bluffing, and to learn the art of persuasion, rhetoric. They were the ones who had accused Plato’s teacher, Socrates, claiming that he was sinning against God, because he would explore the laws of the universe. They brought him to court and sentenced him to death.

In one of his first dialogues—the Apology—Plato describes in a moving way what the conflict was all about. The Apology consists of Socrates addressing the Athenian court, among whose judges sat the Sophists. Socrates at the time was 70 years old. He says

I am falsely accused of blaspheming against the gods and destroying our youth. You, the judges, you all know that you are lying. Let me tell you the truth about why I am put in front of the court. I am accused of searching for the truth. I am here because I am hated for doing that. If I have any wisdom, it is that I know that I don’t know, and that I can discover this in others as well. I went around and met prominent statesmen and found out that they pretended to be very wise, while in reality they did not know anything. When I tried to show this to them, they began to hate me.

I did the same with the poets. I looked at their well-made poems, but I found out that rather than knowing the laws of poetry and being able to explain them, they pretended they knew. But they did not. Rather than from knowledge they created out of enthusiasm and arbitrariness. When I showed this to them, they began to hate me. It was a little bit better with the craftsmen. There I did find some people who knew what they were doing. But some thought that knowing their field, they would know everything else, and they turned out to be very stupid, because they had no judgment.

They all hated me for that, for having shown to them, that they pretend to know while not knowing, and I saw that I was wiser than they, because I do not pretend. Now I am accused of destroying the youth. I would like to know from you, Judge Meletos, if you are so concerned about this question, tell me, who makes the youth more perfect?

The laws.

You mean the judges here?

Yes I mean all judges.

And what about the audience?

Also them.

And the city councillors and the people’s assembly?

Also they make the youth better.

So you say that essentially all, except me, make the Athenian youth better. Tell me, who makes the horses better, many people or only a few? It seems only a few. Meletos, you do not say anything? What a hypocrite you are, you, who never wanted to educate the youth, you now pretend having such interest in this matter.

You want me to plea bargain or let me free if I stop looking for the truth? How could I ever do that? You think I am frightened of death? No, never. Why should I be? I know that if I am dead, it will not be me who is destroyed, but you, with this you will bring destruction upon yourselves....


   
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herupakraath
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Posted by: @gurugeorge

I don't know about that, the text specifically talks about the Great Equinox and the "double-wanded one" taking charge at the next one. 

"I am the Lord of the Double Wand of Power," says Ra-Hoor-Khuit, the hawk-headed mystical lord that is to be superseded by Hrumachis. Both gods wield the the wand of Double Power, which presumably belongs to the god that occupies the solar throne in the East. Crowley's decision to ignore the status of Hrumachis as a god, and conclude the name means "any new course of events," indicates he was adverse to another form of Horus being the next god in charge; if he had not taken the stance that he did, the symbolism would reflect a continuation of the solar cycle conceived by the ancient Egyptians, in which a form of Horus is always the new god.

Are you aware that Horus was also portrayed as a lion, and that Hrumachis/Harmachis is the name of the Sphinx at Giza? The symbolism used in verse III:34 is richly Egyptian, and easily explains who Hrumachis is, and when his reign begins. Crowley's failure to see the true value in the terms used, shows that he was determined to steer the subject matter of the verse away from Egyptian mythology, as also demonstrated by his use of the Greek god Themis in his explanation, as opposed to her Egyptian equivalent, Maat.

Posted by: @gurugeorge

but the core idea of the built-in obsolescence of the work as a religious text, and its being replaced by something else in the future, there in the text.

Unless the stars burn out, including the sun in our solar system, I fail to see how the text could become obsolete.

Posted by: @gurugeorge

Also, I'd say that the 3 chapters do lean towards "force and fire" on the whole.  Even Nuit, who's the "gentlest" of the three, has a few harsh words to say ("For these fools of men and their woes care not thou at all! They feel little; what is, is balanced by weak joys; but ye are my chosen ones.") 

What a tacky thing to say about the goddess who tells us in no uncertain terms that she loves us, whose body is arched for love, and whose feet do hurt the tiny flowers! The point is, most people see whatever they choose to see in the text, instead of what is actually there. The word love appears 22 times in the text, and the word hate only twice: based on those facts alone, you might consider rethinking your position.

Posted by: @gurugeorge

the whole text is quite forceful, apparently contemptuous of non-elites, and "Fascistic" (not to get into that line of debate again, but you know what I mean, that's the reading most people probably take away from it).

I find it ironic that you would choose the word forceful in describing the text, when in fact it tells the Kings to beware of forcing one another. Typically, fascism requires a single ruler, whereas Liber Legis describes multiple Kings and chosen ones, thus suggesting it has nothing to with fascism, but instead defines a ruling elite class, which have existed within every society since the dawn of civilization.

 

 

 


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

 

 

 

In one ..

 

be very stupid, because they had no judgment.

They all hated me for that, for having shown to them, that they pretend to know while not knowing, and I saw that I was wiser than they, because I do not pretend. Now I am accused of destroying the youth. I would like to know from you, Judge Meletos, if you are so concerned about this question, tell me, who makes the youth more perfect?

The laws.

You mean the judges here?

Yes I mean all judges.

And what about the audience?

Also them.

And the city councillors and the people’s assembly?

Also they make the youth better.

So you say that essentially all, except me, make the Athenian youth better. Tell me, who makes the horses better, many people or only a few? It seems only a few. Meletos, you do not say anything? What a hypocrite you are, you, who never wanted to educate the youth, you now pretend having such interest in this matter.

You want me to plea bargain or let me free if I stop looking for the truth? How could I ever do t....

That's interesting, just because all the laws affirm it it doesn't mean it's right.  What's the analogy? Specialisation and division of labour i.e. horse training.  That is, the law makers are not necessarily specialists or know what they're doing.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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hadgigegenraum
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@david-dom-lemieux 

The extracts of dialogue have come from this paper, it should give you the larger framework to consider your questions.

https://archive.schillerinstitute.com/fidelio_archive/1992/fidv01n01-1992Wi/fidv01n01-1992Wi_028-in_the_footsteps_of_socrates_and.pdf

Have fun!


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

@david-dom-lemieux 

The extracts of dialogue have come from this paper, it should give you the larger framework to consider your questions.

https://archive.schillerinstitute.com/fidelio_archive/1992/fidv01n01-1992Wi/fidv01n01-1992Wi_028-in_the_footsteps_of_socrates_and.pdf

Have fun!

Is it good?  Have you read it?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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hadgigegenraum
(@hadgigegenraum)
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@david-dom-lemieux 

Yes, it is an extremely important paper...I  do not reference junk.


   
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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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I would take anything, on any topic, published by The Schiller Institute with a shaker-full of salt.

This is a political cult organization stemming from the lunatic LaRouche political cult. It is an unwitting tool (aka "useful idiots") of Russian intelligence, and run by complete nut-bars.

One can judge just how nutty by their ongoing (since 1988) campaign for orchestras to use a tuning whereby A is 430.539 Hz, rather than the conventional 440 Hz. This is something that is very, very, very important to them.


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @ignant666

I would take anything, on any topic, published by The Schiller Institute with a shaker-full of salt.

This is a political cult organization stemming from the lunatic LaRouche political cult. It is an unwitting tool (aka "useful idiots") of Russian intelligence, and run by complete nut-bars.

One can judge just how nutty by their ongoing (since 1988) campaign for orchestras to use a tuning whereby A is 430.539 Hz, rather than the conventional 440 Hz. This is something that is very, very, very important to them.

Notice how hadgig is sort of trying to push this source onto readers within this thread almost like a salesman or something. 

I keep a journal of Lashtal nuts just a reference point to remind me who I'm talking to.

 

This is  a one time post by hadig;

Your reflexively calling me an 'anti-semite' is sad defense, and slur, relative to your support of war and denial of ethnic cleansing operations by the west's puppet government actors utilizing actual nazi's in the Ukraine against ethnic Russians, Slavs, in the Ukraine since coup against the legitimate government of the Ukraine by the Obama/Binden administration in 2014...

Anti Russia hysteria is but the scapegoat for globalists interests whose interest, as the interest game of perpetual debt runs its course and necessitates the next step of perpetual war...world war III, where it is the people of the west who now are paying the price. 

Hatred of Putin is but the reflex of bullies who get out staged by a leader not willing to let his country become a satrap for looting in the post Soviet world, under western conditionality's. Thus the irony is that it is the "American System of Economics" that Russia has come to implement, as a nation-state, to defend its people against demographic collapse, is exactly why Russia is prevailing against the west's economic sanctions, hurting western populations and the global south.

Note that the world is not lining up behind the west, but that there are nations around the world, outside of the 'five eyes" and bullied Europe, who recognize that Russia had always been open to peace relative to the Minsk Accords.

Further note that Russia well knows the threat to its existence posed by the multiple bioweapons labs in the Ukraine established by America, and other dangers relative NATO expansion to Russia's boarders

Anyways I hear that Ukraine is seeking recruits, so if you really believe in the cause, well you can go to the Eastern Front as you levitate the Pentagon with positions that are certainly not anti war. The pentagon needs to be buried, to which relative to the OP, it is a fact that the Pentagon and FBI love to cultivate right wing extremist dupes, relative to the oligarchy's divide and conquer strategies, to which the Charlie Manson Helter Skelter race war scam was revived in tuning legitimate civil rights protests into burn baby burn posturing of the KKK Democrat=Republican duopoly for murder and enslavement.

But why should I rant, the Obama's just installed a commercial sized propane tank at their mansion on Martha's Vineyard...at least they will stay warm during the coming "Dark Winter'

Don't forget to get in line for your Monkey Pox vaccine: They will work a intended-Just as Trump's Warp Speed suicide roulette was released without full disclosure, but well the cat's out of the bag, and i am glad that  a self proclaimed liberal like Naomi Wolf is willing to tell the truth, but she said she was kicked out of her synagogue for reporting against the fascist zeitgeist....and yes a Federal Judge denied Pfizer its request to keep papers sealed for decades....and yes they are murdering babies, with scienter!

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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Not the first time he has cited the Schiller Institute, or other LaRouchite sites. He is clearly a believer/cultist.

The odd thing about him is that, as long as you can keep him far from politics, and on strictly occult or cultural topics, he is actually quite an interesting and useful poster.

And, when he does get on political things, or things he, being a nut, views as political (like vaccines for infectious diseases), he is, as i have said before, a sort of Beatnik poet of the far right.


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @ignant666

a sort of Beatnik poet of the far right.

..with bongos.  I know a guy like that, he appears sensible and affable but get him on politics and he enters the far right Twilight Zone.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

I keep a journal of Lashtal nuts ...

Uh-oh.

Posted by: @ignant666

He is clearly a believer/cultist.

Uh, uh-oh.

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

with bongos.

Oh, no, uh-oh, down we go.

I take a break from chopping water, and I come back to find all this nad news ... with HG being held-up as an example. Or is it hung up as an example for others ?


   
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hadgigegenraum
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@david-dom-lemieux 

Why don't you have the courage to just read the article rather than listening to the peanut gallery so you can fit in...

Drug dealer Iggy turned lawyer...same difference...is just having a little hissy fit like the folks who murdered Socrates...because Dope, Inc. exposed who the drug pushers and their money launderers are, now funding Nazi's in the Ukraine....

And if you smear me about "far right" anymore, well that is your problem Meletos!


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

@david-dom-lemieux 

Why don't you have the courage to just read the article rather than listening to the peanut gallery so you can fit in...

Drug dealer Iggy turned lawyer...same difference...is just having a little hissy fit like the folks who murdered Socrates...because Dope, Inc. exposed who the drug pushers and their money launderers are, now funding Nazi's in the Ukraine....

You're not interested in this thread, you have a wacky escape-from-reality agenda, I started to realise that when you went off on a wild tangent about beef and conspiracies about Bill Gates instead of actually discussing Plato or Socrates or what Justice is in Thelema.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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hadgigegenraum
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@david-dom-lemieux 

It known as metaphor so no reason to be dim, in fact that is one of the great things about Crowley, but you did not seem to make the connections between Socrates dialogues and today, this world, and now we have this little trail here, calling me something you and iggy have no clue, but that is alright you might learn...

So here is a little presentation, and you will no long call me a right wing nut and maybe iggy might think. for this concerns the heart of the civil rights movement, because that is who Amelia Boynton Robinson was and is as there is something immortal and why she would so make the introduction

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiVvBDb9Vvk


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

@david-dom-lemieux 

It known as metaphor so no reason to be dim, in fact that is one of the great things about Crowley, but you did not seem to make the connections between Socrates dialogues and today, this world, and now we have this little trail here, calling me something you and iggy have no clue, but that is alright you might learn...

So here is a little presentation, and you will no long call me a right wing nut and maybe iggy might think. for this concerns the heart of the civil rights movement, because that is who Amelia Boynton Robinson was and is as there is something immortal and why she would so make the introduction

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiVvBDb9Vvk

Instead of sending me to click on links, how about you just sum up what inspired you in those links.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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Posts: 4198
 
Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Drug dealer Iggy turned lawyer...same difference...is just having a little hissy fit like the folks who murdered Socrates...because Dope, Inc. exposed who the drug pushers and their money launderers are, now funding Nazi's in the Ukraine....

For anyone having difficulty following our Woodchuck Comrade's admittedly incoherent screed here, Dope, Inc. is the 1978 Lyndon LaRouche-authored (aka authored "by the Editors of the Executive Intelligence Review") book that exposes how the notorious British gangster and terrorist known as "Big Liz" Mountbatten (aka "Queen Elizabeth II") controls all drug dealing world-wide with an iron fist, as a plot to sap the precious bodily fluids of god-fearing folk everywhere, and make big bank.

And, as an ex-participant in that worldwide enterprise, i have to admit that it is true that, during my days selling crystal meth cooked by Pennsylvania/Jersey biker gang The Pagans, and "Skunk #1" cannabis grown in Mississippi by the sister of a Brooklyn actor, i was in fact also getting a weekly paycheck drawn on a UK Crown account, and personally signed by "Big Liz" herself.

Here is a rare image of the fearsome gangster "Queen" (as she is called by her terrified "subjects") executing a group of rival drug-dealing gangsters with her usual cruel panache:

image

   
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hadgigegenraum
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Inspiration David...now do your own work!

And while drug addled iggy gets his kicks with his gangsta rap idiocy and oblations to his murder queen perhaps I should answer...Drug dealers just took advantage of the black communities iggy...how progressive, i hear they need volunteers on the eastern front....Zalenski needs more blow!

So who was Mrs. Robinson you ask, well I am not talking Simon and Garfunkel...

Amelia Boynton Robinson invited Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. to Selma Alabama, she was beat unconscious on the Edmund Pettis Bridge....she is understood to be the godmother to the Voting Rights Act and one of the Civil Rights movement and later became Vice President of the Schiller Institute...in the film above introducing Lyndon LaRouche to a talk on the immortal talent of Martin Luther King, Jr.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiVvBDb9Vvk

 


   
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ignant666
(@ignant666)
Elderly American druggie
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4198
 
Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Amelia Boynton Robinson

It is indeed true that, when she was a very old lady (aged 73-98), this early civil rights heroine served as LaRouche's "token Negro" from 1983-2009.

If LaRouche had ever found a second black supporter, or if the LaRoucheites had found another one after his death, i am sure he/they would have mentioned it in his/their copious publications, websites, "Institutes" etc.

As it is, it is true that LaRouche had one (1) old black lady that supported him.

For those who doubt that the British Crown has always controlled the trade in illicit drugs worldwide, here is the great-great-grandmother of "Big Liz", and her predecessor as World Head Drug Gangsta, "Vicky The Bruiser" Emmanuel, displaying her well-known depravity by "busting up" a big "spliff", probably as a warm-up to a few murders:

image

   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

you have a wacky escape-from-reality agenda

Now we're getting down to the core of things: Justice via Thelema. Can you take it, hg? 

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

you went off on a wild tangent about beef and conspiracies about Bill Gates instead of actually discussing Plato or Socrates or what Justice is in Thelema.

The charges have been nailed up on the message board in the marketplace square. Will justice prevail? Will HG invoke Liber Oz and threaten to kill david, as authorized in that doc.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

you did not seem to make the connections between Socrates dialogues and today, this world

Well, if you want to be practical about it ... your excuses are noted, and may adjust (balance) the charges in order to provide Justice.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

no clue

Come now, the clues are everywhere. It is the perspective of interpretation that varies. That is, hardly anyone sees the same thing in their karmic vision. Note: Karmic vision = How you see it.

We don't all see it the same way. Most of us agree the sky is blue and AC was a genius with an unusual persona (the imp Crowley). Since we each, and all, are mostly willing to let any given star pass by on its orbit without throwing stones or firing missiles, we accept a certain amount of diversity in thought and instability in the mentat.

Posted by: @ignant666

For anyone having difficulty following our Woodchuck Comrade's admittedly incoherent screed here

[I raise my hand]  How much wood would a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood? I believe he is typing in code-speak. I thought I new the QBL of Concealment, but apparently I'm lost. How do I get funding for my own regiment?

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Inspiration David...now do your own work

What a hard-hearted guru. Why, you're as bad as the A.'.A.'..

 


   
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hadgigegenraum
(@hadgigegenraum)
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"Token Negro" as said by the toking Nazi Lawyer ...hey Iggy... Zelesski is freaking out about the upcoming War Crimes Tribunal ...now run off to the eastern front with your baggies and vials....and yes of course don't forget your scale, and just in case you run out of batteries bring the the old postage weighing clip... you don't want to be found clipping a bag around those boys...

Yes the thread is about Justice and Injustice in Thelema, and some weigh their soul in grams, other weigh out souls in kilos, but now that the Dissolution has been geometrized... Albedaran will be watching supposedly Maatfully....

 


   
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ignant666
(@ignant666)
Elderly American druggie
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

the toking Nazi Lawyer

Even Russia has given up on that whole "We are de-Nazifying Ukraine by trying to invade it" line, and is just straight-up admitting they want the land and resources of everything that was ever part of the Russian Empire or the Soviet Union. Your rhetoric is not keeping up with the current Kremlin party line.

As to "toking" as a term of abuse: cannabis is legal where i live, so this too is kind of passé abuse. And of course it's been legal in Vermont where you live for several years. Probably there are some folks under age 80 or so who regard smoking cannabis as a bad thing, but not very many. And there are plenty of 80 year old potheads too- the hippie generation are approaching or in their 80s.

"Lawyer" is correct to the extent that it is correct to describe someone who last practiced law 27 years ago by this term.

You aren't even good at personal abuse, and are just hopeless at logical argument or providing evidence or citations to back up your ravings.


   
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hadgigegenraum
(@hadgigegenraum)
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Posts: 593
 

@ignant666 

No i don't come to these threads to engage in put-downs as seems to be your want.

The Special De-Nazification Operation has not stopped, nor Nazi shelling of civilians and a nuclear power plant...now concerning stealing land, perhaps  the purchase of large swaths of Ukrainian farmland being purchased by the the likes of western corporations for GMO plantations might concern you, but obviously outlawing banning the speaking of Russian amongst populations native to such lands for millennium is a demonstration of a closed mind, but then again that is indicative of leaders of a profession who can not define what a girl is, even when they are females...its called sophistry...now feel free to  legally enjoy yourself if doing what you want to do is the whole of the Statute.


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

the toking Nazi Lawyer

This is purposeful  baiting with loaded terms that you well know is/are not true, inflammatory, and just plain mean. One-half of a point is deducted from your score.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Yes the thread is about Justice and Injustice in Thelema, and some weigh their soul in grams, other weigh out souls in kilos, but now that the Dissolution has been geometrized... Albedaran will be watching supposedly Maatfully....

Break in Reality noted. Dispersion noted. If you come back from this present adventure in a Nietzsche state, then you will possibly never come back intact. Which is better? Life in the Fast Lane ... or ... Living on the Edge?

Posted by: @ignant666

You aren't even good at personal abuse

Today, this morn, HG is assuming the Horus-child godform, and it shows.


   
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