'Kill me' or 'Fill me' - The Debate
as: So this I fear will be his ultimate legacy, a never ending rift in the Thelemic community, born from his inability to quash his ego.
This single (^) sentence sums up your position, and it is easily understandable. There might even be a few others around The Sacred Halls of LAShTAL who agree completely with you.
It's a good thing that Liberation (Attainment, Accomplishment, Enlightenment, etc) doesn't depend on AL, or HB, or OTO.
In cases of danger or difficulty, in whom do you place your trust?
[astralsun gives two possible theories about the role of HB's ego in the forbidden, yet mandatory, edit (query: maybe review Orwell, 1984?)]
I think it is pretty clear that the current (c)OTO leadership cadre, and their associated World Teacher "Handsome Dan" Gunther, Most Supremest Boss of the fake "duplex" "A.'. A.'.", have, in the Freudian terms you adopt, actually convinced themselves that "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law", and Initiation, means causing your Ego, inflamed by your Id, to utterly overwhelm and eliminate, your Superego. As evidence, see especially the writings of the repellent "High Initiate" Wasserman, and any photo of any of them except Duquette.
It is possible that you have, inadvertently, and misled by false claims, joined what is sometimes called "The Black Lodge". However, it is easy to exit. As i used to explain to my son when he was small, and would wake up terrified by bad dreams: "None of that shit is real."
If Orridge is a Jesuit then Donald Trump is a covert Communist.
It's that ridiculous.
david: i think Shiva was having a joke, and there actually is a person called Porridge, who is not Genesis P. Orridge, but an actual Porridge.
I have never heard of this person and am confused as to WTF is going on with this Porridge business some folks seem to know about- perhaps they could explain to us ignorami?
And OMG ("oh my gods and goddesses"), do i feel bad for him/her in elementary school, even if they are now part of the (c)OTO KGB- it's probably why they went wrong!
PS: Genesis P is certainly as opposite to a Jessy as a person could be (other than being very effete, a common, if not requisite SJ trait), and Trump is not a "covert Communist". My "President" is a covert asset of Russian intelligence. Russia has not been Communist for a long time- wake up and smell the coffee!
Porridge is a close associate of Breeze as they played "music" together in Psychic TV and Current 93.
There's a great video of him doing a live gig - screaming at maximum power "I want Discipline....I waaaaannnttt diiiisssscaaapliiine" (can't get that out horrible image out of my mind unfortunately)
He later chopped his weiner off and now words fail me to describe him.
I believe he is the victim of a mind control experiment run by Jesuits.
Jesuits are not Christians btw - in case anyone was wondering - they are Satanists - the worst kind - the kind that torture babies.
The 'occult' scene was becoming more and more popular from the 60's, 70's, 80's onwards and the Jesuits thought they might be losing some power. So they took the popular culture and attempted to transform it into something ugly, something demonic. They taught kids to want sex changes, they pushed extreme behaviour, excessive use of drugs etc. Porridge was at the heart of this. Today it has gone mainstream, but it started with this occult based industrial scene.
It's a far cry from the beauty expressed in most of Crowley's work.
There has always been a war against Crowley's work, from when he was alive - right up until today.
These very public facing 'pop stars' who both expressed interest in Crowley's work and at the same time acted like total and utter psycho loons could well be a deliberate effort to discredit Crowley to a new generation.
Porridge may not have even known he was being used in this way. That's how it goes with many of these operations.
The controllers are often more in the background, yet encouraging all the weird behavior - hmmm BB seems to fit that description quite nicely.
The main energy that I feel from these bands is one of very dark, malefic, demonic and thoroughly disgusting nonsense.
Like ugly children crying because their mummy didn't love them.
I knew a few people who liked their music a few years back - one of them also chopped his weiner off (and true story - he later regretted it - ouch)
The other person I knew who liked their music was a satanist who lived in a giant pile of filth. His apartment was literrally filled with garbage and dirt and statues of demons.
This is not what I associate with Crowley's work at all. It seems a very misguided and satanic failure to understand Crowley.
I think you may be a cuckoo person, astralsun.
Ah, Spring!!! All we need is a tentacle-worshiper post, and i will believe that the last frost is past, and start planting seriously.
The rising of the sap here at lashtal is better than the Farmer's Almanac for spring planting!
So far we have daffodils galore, and the forsythia starting to go. The other bulbs are up but no flowers yet (NY 90 miles up the Hudson from NYC for those completing scorecards at home). No leaves on anything yet, not even willows.
cuckoo now that was the bird I was trying to figure out... screams all night hauntingly like a banshee not on the clock though..
speaking of crazy what an awesome journey of unveiling truth
I couldnt figure out why Aleister, I prefer Alex .. but anyhows i couldnt figure out why he had to hide the truth when he had all the doors opened for him
then it unfolded like the flower it is.. daffy from a dil .. very accacia'ish of me
no wonder he hated his mother.. she never protected him
he love hated his father because the one person he looked up to stole his innocence ...
kill me or fill me - can't kill an empty vessel.. but you can fill it, break it down, steal it and it will kill itself
"I think you may be a cuckoo person, astralsun."
I disagree. His statements are well explained and rational. @pegasus on the other hand...I have a hard time making sense of her posts.
"These very public facing ‘pop stars’ who both expressed interest in Crowley’s work and at the same time acted like total and utter psycho loons could well be a deliberate effort to discredit Crowley to a new generation."
I agree with this somewhat. The actions of many of these so called Crowley followers often seem to be sourced from what Christians and zealots think Crowley work was/is about. Often overly Satanic and campy to the point of sillyness. Whether intentional or not, one result is Crowley is still heavily slandered and misunderstood by but a few. And Crowley is still often mislabeled and slandered as a baby killing Satanist by supposedly credible mainstream media outlets (an accusation of which there is no evidence to support.)
On the other hand the churches have been caught with hundreds of baby corpses hidden in their lairs. More than once. Might this be evidence of actual crimes taking place?
"My “President” is a covert asset of Russian intelligence. Russia has not been Communist for a long time- wake up and smell the coffee!"
No collusion. Only delusion.
Assange arrested on 4-1-1. It will interesting to see what info comes out as things proceed, and to see if trials for treason (promised) actually take place.
I believe that many many evil things have been done in Aleister Crowley's name by evil people. There is evidence of this that need not be discussed here. Hopefully some of it sees the light of day and perhaps eventually AC's legacy will shed this blight by disassociation.
Elitemachinery: "His statements are well explained and rational."
astralsun: "He later chopped his weiner off and now words fail me to describe him.
I believe he is the victim of a mind control experiment run by Jesuits.
Jesuits are not Christians btw – in case anyone was wondering – they are Satanists – the worst kind – the kind that torture babies."
Only one of you can be right...
"Only one of you can be right…"
“He later chopped his weiner off and now words fail me to describe him."
FYI MK Ultra is a thing...psyops are a thing....many provable examples throughout recent history.
"Psychological operations (PSYOP) are operations to convey selected information and indicators to audiences to influence their emotions, motives, and objective reasoning, and ultimately the behavior of governments, organizations, groups, and individuals."
You’ll have to forgive elite .
organizes his cosmos in such a way as to attribute pests as critters
running around playing liberating pests .
That's how he do .
He will never really make sense
or truly understand the process of giving birth .
But perhaps in the realization of another incarnation;
he might be
filled till kingdom come
and nibbana blows out .
Ignant, I don't think I was making a joke. I simply went along with Porridge being a pun on Genesis P Oroidge (sic?).
as: Jesuits are not Christians btw – in case anyone was wondering – they are Satanists – the worst kind – the kind that torture babies.
This (^) essentially typifies the attitude of the members of Agape Lodge. Parsons took the position of Magister Templi on("Belarion") and immediately called upon all Thelemites to join him in destroying the Roman Catholic Church. In Solar Lodge, we accepted that the Jesuits might be dangerous, but we never came up against them in any conflict, so this was not a consideration. We (at Solar) came up against the Church of the Savants (a purposeful pseudonym), and even the Easters (purposeful pseudonym).
So we (Solar) didn't worry about Jesuits, but that tradition (Jesuphobia) might well have been passed along through Caliph McM to the (current)OTO.
Fortunately, Liberation (from the mind or from rebirth) is not dependent upon actions by the Vatican, El Ron, or Werner von Erhard.
may not be able to help himself .
As every member of the Black Lodge knows
you can’t control those you can’t black mail
and if you can’t control them
don’t let them into the halls of power .
He may be a puppet of those that corral the spiritual instinct
for political legal organization purposes .
“I think you may be a cuckoo person, astralsun.”
Elitemachinery said "I disagree. His statements (about Jesuits as covert Satanists controlling G.P.Orridge to warp the minds of the kids and stain Crowley's legacy (because Crowley never did mad things did he?)) are well explained and rational"
Parsons took the position of Magister Templi on(“Belarion”) and immediately called upon all Thelemites to join him in destroying the Roman Catholic Churc
What and keep the Protestant churches active?
d: What and keep the Protestant churches active?
"Roman Catholic Church" was inscribed in his memo. Nothing was written about "Christianity" or "Protestants" or other entities.
@ astralsun and elitemachinery the reincarnation of AC
Porridge is a close associate of Breeze as they played “music” together in Psychic TV and Current 93.
There’s a great video of him doing a live gig – screaming at maximum power “I want Discipline….I waaaaannnttt diiiisssscaaapliiine” (can’t get that out horrible image out of my mind unfortunately)
Don't you want discipline?
He later chopped his weiner off and now words fail me to describe him.
He's transgender. Do you have a problem with the LGBT coum -munity?
I believe he is the victim of a mind control experiment run by Jesuits.
Jesuits are not Christians btw – in case anyone was wondering – they are Satanists
We'll take your word for it. how do you know this by the way?
– the worst kind – the kind that torture babies.
The ‘occult’ scene was becoming more and more popular from the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s onwards and the Jesuits thought they might be losing some power.
The RC Church lost it's followers gradually in the modern age due to the piss-boring nature of the sermons and other factors. I hardly think that those who became lapse Catholics were instead becoming turned on by occultism.
So they took the popular culture and attempted to transform it into something ugly, something demonic.
So Jesuits set out to 'control popular culture'? How?
They taught kids to want sex changes
Who did? Presumably you mean Bowie and The (very hetero) New York Dolls? So the latter were being controlled by Jesuit ESP sessions to cause kids to be open to transgenderism which as you put it is "something ugly, something demonic"? I get it YOU'RE A JESUIT!!
, they pushed extreme behaviour, excessive use of drugs etc. Porridge was at the heart of this.
Hehehe Porridge has always been a vociferous anti-heroin activist. Weed, acid, MDMA etc he is all for. He also advised never to do 2 different drugs at once. I would actually say that he is probably a good example of someone who espouses a sensible scientific approach to drug-taking so you're talking out of your crazy ass.
Today it has gone mainstream, but it started with this occult based industrial scene.
Yeah ok Orridge's music is dross as is his friend's (Boyd Rice) music. Coil were terrible also and Death in June but it just means they all suck at making music. It's not a Jesuit conspiracy What you think Justin Bieber is a Jesuit mind-control casualty due to his catalogue of soul-destroying drivel? Orridge and Rice are more contemporary artists (think used urinal presented in an art gallery) who should never have entered the music industry. Now whether they are decent contemporary artists is another thing.
It’s a far cry from the beauty expressed in most of Crowley’s work.
So the known Crowley fans such as Bowie, Lennon and McCartney, The Doors, Hall and Oates, Black Sabbath and Page/Zeppelin are also proponents of dross and drivel? You're talking out of your ass.
There has always been a war against Crowley’s work, from when he was alive – right up until today.
These very public facing ‘pop stars’ who both expressed interest in Crowley’s work and at the same time acted like total and utter psycho loons could well be a deliberate effort to discredit Crowley to a new generation.
Yes because (to take one tiny example from a catalogue of loon behaviour) publishing a book containing the claim that you tried to kill a cat to see how many lives it had is totally well balanced and 'normal'?
Porridge may not have even known he was being used in this way. That’s how it goes with many of these operations.
You are an authority on long distance mind- control? Please we need more detail.
The controllers are often more in the background, yet encouraging all the weird behavior – hmmm BB seems to fit that description quite nicely.
I get it, Rice, Orridge and Coil were being manipulated by Breeze to go forth and make drivel? Trends change. The new decade of the 80s brought new things like hairspray, cheap electronic technology and neat haircuts and skinny trousers so anyone who could play decent guitar pieces were now considered to be "a dinosaur" from the hairy scary 70s.. The electronic scene was an offshoot of the DIY punk scene. Fast convenient DIY sometimes fucks up and that's where Rice et al come into it.
The main energy that I feel from these bands is one of very dark, malefic, demonic and thoroughly disgusting nonsense
Well since punk rock the shockabiklity-levels have had to go higher and higher for idiots to get any kind of attention.
Like ugly children crying because their mummy didn’t love them.
I knew a few people who liked their music a few years back – one of them also chopped his weiner off (and true story – he later regretted it – ouch)
You mean in a transgender op?
The other person I knew who liked their music was a satanist who lived in a giant pile of filth. His apartment was literally filled with garbage and dirt and statues of demons.
This is not what I associate with Crowley’s work at all. It seems a very misguided and satanic failure to understand Crowley.
So out of all of the thousands of Satanists you found the a big OCD hoarder casualty and therefore all Satanists are OCD hoarder casualties?
US President Bush The Younger once asked "Is our children learning?"
David's latest post shows us that yes they is, here at lashtal. Great improvement in david's work, perhaps due to arthuremerson working with him. However, arguing with crazy people may be a waste of time.
It is a notable data-point that the only person posting here in recent years to admit to being a (c)OTO initiate is a complete wackaloon with some obvious issues around sexuality.
Incidentally, astralsun, they don't "chop [a sex-changer's] wiener off", they remove some interior flesh, and more or less fold the exterior inside itself, forming vaginal walls from what was the outside of the penis, with the head becoming a sort of sensitive cervix.
“ God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. ”
“ When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened “
“ That which stirs in you now is not madness, is not sin, is not folly, but is life,
and joy and fire that will beget a new race, and create a new heaven and a new earth.
When you were a child, did not the wind speak to you and the sun ? Did you not hear the mountain's voice; the voice of the river and of the storm? Have you not heard the whisper of the stars and the ineffable voice in silence? Have you not gone naked in the forest with the wind on your body and felt the caress of Pan? Your heart has swollen with Spring, blossomed with Summer and saddened with Winter. These things are the covenant and in them is the truth that is forever. “
Freedom is a Two-Edged sword - VIThe Woman Girt With the Sword pg39
( Belarion Armiluss al-Dajjal )
It is a notable data-point that the only person posting here in recent years to admit to being a (c)OTO initiate is a complete wackaloon with some obvious issues around sexuality
However, arguing with crazy people may be a waste of time.
Yep I'm not trying to 'convert' the nut.
Tiger: Any Thelemite bible-readers would do better to use exclusively the King James Version, the version that shaped AC's poetry, imagination, and subsequent revelations. Modern, or indeed more "accurate", or whatever, other versions won't do. I highly recommend the Penguin paperback Oxford KJV.
Genesis 3:5-7, where Eve liberates humanity from the Demiurge (the local tribal demon posing as the only "GOD"/YHVH), is better read as the KJV has it:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
For those anxious to find out how the story comes out, the rest is available at many websites and used bookshops near you. But seriously KJV, nothing else.
For Thelema, Genesis and Revelations (the first and last books of the bible, suggesting a certain amount of skipping around by the author of AL, whether a praeternatural thing ,or our old pal AC) are by far the most important books to understand.
Awesome ignant !
Thanks much !
Glad to be of help, T.
The KJV is the most useful for getting biblical quotes and allusions in all English-language literature. All modern versions other than a couple scholarly translations of the Old Testament lose the essential utter ass-out weirdness of the bible as understood through post-Reformation culture.
They try to make the bible text less scary and strange, to get converts by making what they are trying to convert them to seem less totally nuts, and lose everything valuable.
Also, if you spend time in east coast cities and enjoy fucking with violent and crazy folks, you will be better equipped to argue with the Hebrew Israelites (black "Jews" with corn-rows and kind of medieval/paramilitary clothing who evangelize in Times Square NYC and most other big east coast cities about how white folks are physical demons) who are exclusive KJV users. this is because the woodcut of King James in old editions of the KJV looks a great deal like ex-NYC Mayor David Dinkins (one of whitest looking black men i ever met). I swear i am not making this up; look it up. i was good friends with several HIs in the 80s despite my white physical devilitude, and will in fact visit an ex-Israelite later this spring.
Tiger's thanks should really go to all my Episcopal Sunday School teachers, especially the one who could roll a cigarette with one hand (Sunday School teachers smoked in class in the '60s), for getting me to read the bible even though it scared the shit out of me.
You are lighting it up ignant !
nice writing nice story
can’t wait till weather gets real nice for another trip to nyc
“ They try to make the bible text less scary and strange, to get converts by making what they are trying to convert them to seem less totally nuts, and lose everything valuable. “
yeah i’ve heard about that
some say its whispered among the inner circles
there might actually be some truth to that
It is too bad that the people holding the last remaining copyrights to AC's work have chosen to disregard what AC worked so hard on through several printings and arrogantly change "fill" to "kill."
"In Solar Lodge, we accepted that the Jesuits might be dangerous."
Once a person dies their legacy is in the hands of history. Sites like Lashtal have done a good job overall of setting the record straight in many instances of lies, slander and misinformation about AC.
But AC is still very misunderstood by most people who have not bothered to study his life or work. And, I surmise, AC is also misunderstood by many that have studied his life work. This includes artists, writers and historians.
But I guess if AC wasn't such an enigma, this site and these many attempts at understanding, explaining, or hero worship (succeed or fail as they do) would not exist.
"It’s a good thing that Liberation (Attainment, Accomplishment, Enlightenment, etc) doesn’t depend on AL, or HB, or OTO."
Do what thou wilt!
This is sort of OT as this thread has touched on nut-jobs attracted to Thelema. There I was getting ready to post on Ignant's new thread about Thelemic parenthood. but it has been rightfully locked due to the incoherent meltdown ravings of a Mad Hatter known as "Pegasus". . Would just like to point out that I have never been a member of the OTO, Australian or otherwise as stated by the nut-job in question. Also I doubt very much that Pegasus is Alrah. Anyway how 'bout those daffodils?
"Porridge was (still is?) a monitor agent who moved (moves?) in almost immediately to assess anything in Wikipedia mentioning “OTO” and probably other keywords he had (has?) in order to immediately change the entry if it doesn’t already have the proper “spin” embedded in the text. “Immediately” refers to next-day modifications, so there was (is?) a keyword search or notification borg unit in place."
Interesting assertion. The Borg and auto-bots are a given. But have you experienced Porridge in this capacity?
"they pushed extreme behavior, excessive use of drugs etc. Porridge was at the heart of this."
"Hehehe Porridge has always been a vociferous anti-heroin activist. Weed, acid, MDMA etc he is all for. He also advised never to do 2 different drugs at once. I would actually say that he is probably a good example of someone who espouses a sensible scientific approach to drug-taking so you’re talking out of your crazy ass."
you sir @dom are the resident troll who's sole purpose seems to be to take every side of every argument in an attempt to trip people up, stir useless debate and confuse.
Liber AL III, 42:
"Refuse none, but thou shalt know & destroy the traitors....
Them that seek to entrap thee, to overthrow thee, them attack without pity or quarter."
@dom you’re talking out of your crazy ass.
Repeated for emphasis.
Before you @dom start proselytizing about LGBQT ideals you may want to do a study in Third Gender pronouns:
"Incidentally, astralsun, they don’t “chop [a sex-changer’s] wiener off”, they remove some interior flesh, and more or less fold the exterior inside itself, forming vaginal walls from what was the outside of the penis, with the head becoming a sort of sensitive cervix."
Thank you for this most informative clarification. It's a shame that one would go through this very real physical alteration and still be called he by his friends and followers thirty years later.
"Yes, of course. Have you ever read his/her/its bio?"
@Shiva is confused also. Please, can one of you trolls explains the birds and the bees of LGBQT to Frater Shiva? I am not an expert.
As long as the BoTL is being edited may I propose another edit?
Every man and every woman and every thing is a star!
There I fixed it. Perfect for the 21st century..
Carry on fools!
eLite: It is too bad that the people holding the last remaining copyrights ...
They are playing an obvious game of Hardball Standoff ... and It's My Party & I'll Do What I Want!
They should be regarded as Buddha viewed Mara.
PS - Mara is known for his part in Buddha's enlightenment, in which a great battle with Mara, whose name means "destruction," was fought, and who represents the passions that snare and delude us. see also: "Choronzon," and apply this data toward mad-hatters and trolls. "The Closing of Accounts is mine," sayeth the Moderator. Says so in the scriptures.
you sir @dom are the resident troll who’s sole purpose seems to be to take every side of every argument in an attempt to trip people up, stir useless debate and confuse
That's funny. Well done. You are joking , right?
I'll assume you're joking and yes, I stand corrected, Orridge is now 'she' but Orridg refers to hirself in the first person plural anyway so....
I think the transgender phenomenon itself, and pronoun use around gender fluidity, are difficult for some to come to terms with. As many here are Thelemites, and all are students of the work of a man whose first love was a male-to-female transgendered person (Pollitt/de Rougy), i think we ought to be respectful of all stars' chosen form.
The generally accepted pronoun standard to avoid what Judith Butler called "gender trouble" is they/them/their instead of he-she/him-her/his-hers respectively. Singular "they" very much grated on my ear at first, but my sensibilities should hardly be the governing ones here. Also, since Genesis uses "We" in referring to, um, i guess, themselves, they/them seems appropriate.
I don't think david meant any harm by "misgendering" Genesis P. This is a term i learned from my high-school student son when he reported to me in shocked tones that a teacher had misgendered a trans classmate by calling him by his birth gender (female) name and pronouns, outraging the whole class. Norms change.
Now that we have clarified that the references to a "Porridge" constantly editing OTO references on Wikipedia refer to Genesis P., is this actually true? One would think they were too busy for this.
To comment on david's comment on the recent eruption and deletion in my now-locked parenting thread, i too doubt that peg was Alrah (although i did call her an "Antipodean Alrah" once)- Alrah was definitely British and living in the UK, peg is in Oz (in many senses). Also they each had their own particular, and different, forms of loopiness. Perhaps Paul knows something we don't. In any case, i wish she had learned to rein herself in a bit as she sometimes said interesting things amid the babble.
The Pegasus account has been locked, not deleted, so Unlocking in due course is entirely possible.
Owner and Editor
Also, i think em is being unfair calling david a troll. While there have been times in the past when this term might have been apter, i don't think it has ever been true. It is fair to say he tends to take every available side of any argument, but i think this is evolution, and being too quick on the draw posting, not the absence of a center.
A troll is a person who is deliberately playing the provocateur, hoping to incite by pushing folks' buttons. david isn't that: he was sometimes a crank, as he got swept away by various new enthusiasms ("skeptical Thelema", Space Migration/Kohoutek-era Leary, RAW, "radical honesty" or "critical candor" or whatever it was, pyramidology, etc), but has always been sincere about each. He has recently been much more disciplined, as i noted above.
Of course, it is possible to be both sincere and a troll- S.'. H.'. Fra. Los 8=3 (probably 9=2 by now) being our local prime example. His ability to persist with his nonsense in the face of so much skepticism about his heavily-edited version of AC's work testifies to both his inflamed ego, and his not being smart enough to understand when he is losing an argument. Or else my old theory that he was a text-bot may be right, though since going to reddit he has more varied interests. Incidentally, he claimed he has a Ph.D. a couple months ago, one from an actual terrestrial and presumably accredited university. This is possibly the most ludicrous thing he has ever said; there are some shitty Ph.D. programs in this world, but none shitty enough to let someone like Los get a doctorate.
For those interested - back in the good old days there was some discussion on AC's reference bible here
Ig: ... constantly editing OTO references on Wikipedia refer to Genesis P., is this actually true? One would think they were too busy for this.
I was referring to a certain entry on Wikipedia, which I created. Within a day, the theme had been modified. I went on reverting and revising several times over several months. Each time, my entries were changed again, the last time was a throrough re-write by Genesis, using their well-known name. I'm not saying Genesis was the only one. It seems to be a group function. Regardless of who, or how many, references to OTO will be scrutinizerd and the "spin" will be adjusted, if required, within a day or two. Acolytes seeking favor from on-high will be quick to volunteer (or accept assignment), set up scan/search programs, and either report, or modify, heretical statements.
Eventually, after a year or more of chess-playing with the structure of sentences and precise wordplay, we (myself and the multiple players on the other side) arrived at an equilibrium and the article/reference stabilized.
You can prove this yourself. Simply log in to Wikipedia and edit OTO, Bill Breeze, A.'.A.'., any of those hot-button pages, telling the truth as you know it. See how long it takes to get changed back to the (c)OTO-approved version.
We used to worry about Scientology because they were using our bookstore as an aggressively-mounted recruiting station (waylaying customers and pushing Hubbard literature). Today, there's a different group pushing their particulars that warp history.
Ok, i have risen to the challenge, and made a couple modest, and indisputably historically accurate, edits to the Solar Lodge wikipedia page.
The musician (and possible Caliph-bot?) who is in charge of maintaining Caliphate standards of hygienic thought on that page is not Genesis P, but Rodney Orpheus, an OTO member and author.
I am surprised he has time for so much wiki-editing with his new job at Korg, and that his bosses at Korg are willing to allow him to alienate potential consumers of their synthesizers (like me!) by sending history to the memory hole (should that happen, which of course it may not).
This is certainly not confined to the OTO- zealous fans of the Allman Brothers deleted every effort i made in a bored moment a couple years back to insert the true fact that Gregg escaped prison by ratting out his tour manager for selling him drugs into his wiki bio.
Ignant, you did a wonderful job restoring about 70% of the items that were removed or revised. But do note that I was wrong - it was not Porridge who took the challenge, it was Rodney Orpheus. I herewith post the official Wikipedia record of that duel. Also note that I put up the original page.
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Now we'll see how long it takes ... ?
There is an entry for Solar Lodge on Lashtal's Encyclopedia Thelemica which is both informative and fair:
I have read the abridged version of Frater Shiva's book about Solar Lodge and it is clear and concise, but haven't yet read the longer complete version of the book as it is only available in physical form and requires planes trains and automobiles to deliver.
"... Unfortunately Mr Beta’s attempt to explain his change to Liber AL, is not convincing.
He fails to explain anything beyond “I think” and “Crowley forgot”
I think this article summarizes it very well:
https://fnordzone.blogspot.com/2014/08/from-fill-to-kill-oho-ignores-command.htm l" (Source: reply #112252 in this thread titled "‘Kill me’ or ‘Fill me’ – The Debate", published by astralsun April 10, 2019 at 11:44 am - - - https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/kill-me-or-fill-me-the-debate/page/13/#post-112252)
The article mentioned by astralsun, is signed by one Fr. Spin Rex, self-described as "... a Thelemite and as someone who actually believes in the mystic powers of fate and chance", and "the silent guiding hand of Aiwass", and "the true tranmission".
Fr. Spin Rex does in this article write the following:
"... anyone with even a basic understanding of Egyptian comsology and spirituality would understand that a funeral tablet would not say 'let it kill me' because to be killed after physical death would be a terrible thing indeed - something you would wish on your enemies, and certainly not something you would want written on your own funeral tablet to be sent with you into the afterlife forever. [..] if you look at the modern translation of the text on the stele - there is neither any mention of 'self slain' or anything even close. [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St%C3%A8le_of_Revealing#Obverse ] Nor are there any actual hieroglyphs that say 'Aum let it fill me' or 'Aum let it kill me'. So what am I getting at here? Crowley's poetic version of the Stele text was just that - Crowley's poetry."
I provide more on Egyptian comsology and spirituality, with respect to the funeral tablet interpreted and used by Aleister Crowley within his construction of his The Book of the Law: (Source: https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/my-quotes-from-comment-to-download-timothy-moss-squaring-the-circle/page/2/. A point repeatedly stated by me in this thread, is that the ultimate purpose of the Stele (funeral tablet) of one Ankh-af-na-khonsu - interpreted and used by Aleister Crowley within his construction of his The Book of the Law - is safeguarding the said Ankh-af-na-khonsu’s individuality and civil status into perpetuity. An ultimate purpose which is irrespective of how the said Stele is interpreted and used by AC and/or Aiwass in the so-called The Book of the Law associated with them.)
so-called The Book of the Law associated with them
Why is it "so-called The Book of the Law" rather than simply "The Book of the Law"?
Probably for the same reason wrwb puts "one" before everyone's name ("one Fr. Spin Rex", "one Ankh-af-na-khonsu"), and then "said" on second mentions ("said Ankh-af-na-khonsu"), and says things like "does in this article write the following" instead of "writes"- he thinks it makes him sound more scholarly or clever or something.
Or possibly wrwb employs Martians or robots to translate his posts into English from whatever his native language is. Or maybe he is paid by the word for his posts here, and thus constantly seeks to pad them out with all these tics/strange stylistic choices?
wrwb's very stilted language use, repetitiveness, and stringing together of quotations from any old thing that turns up in a google search are all hallmarks of his posts, along with their total pointlessness.
"Egyptian comsology" refers to ancient Egyptian cosmology.
As for "‘Kill me’ or ‘Fill me’ – The Debate", the change from ‘Fill me’ to ‘Kill me’ within The Book of the Law associated with Aleister Crowley and/or one Aiwass, does further accentuate the pseudo-Egyptian nature of the symbolism used within the Thelema associated with Aleister Crowley.
so-called The Book of the Law associated with them
Why is it “so-called The Book of the Law” rather than simply “The Book of the Law“?"
Because Crowley among also calling it Liber XXXI (Liber 31) and Liber 220, calling the most holy book of his Thelema The Book of the Law, knew that this title would have a special, implied, meaning for masons being members of the United Grand Lodge of England (within his homeland England, for most masons the major 'Mother Lodge', which Crowley originally wanted membership of, and acceptance from). As the Book of the Law "is the Masonic term for whatever religious or philosophical texts are displayed during a Lodge meeting." (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volume_of_Sacred_Law)
the change from ‘Fill me’ to ‘Kill me’ within The Book of the Law associated with Aleister Crowley and/or one Aiwass, does further accentuate the pseudo-Egyptian nature of the symbolism used within the Thelema associated with Aleister Crowley
Owner and Editor
Since this is a thread on a website and not a masonic meeting, you can probably relax and refer to it here as simply The Book of the Law. But then that would mean one less affectation at your disposal, wouldn't it?
As a Thelemite I feel obligated to shred all of the 'kill me' editions.
Force and Fire is not metaphorical. In Prophetes Veritas Venit.
el: There is an entry for Solar Lodge on Lashtal’s Encyclopedia Thelemica which is both informative and fair:
Rightly so. I posted that version, which was based on my pre-revisionist-spin post over there at Wikipedia ... except there's pictures on Thelemica. The Thelemica version was posted after the spinners went to work and I wanted the "true" version, without spin, squash, or tilt, to be embedded somewhere.
This revision has been in use for a few years now. Could it be said to have noticeably benefited or harmed anyone or the OTO?
Re Solar Lodge wiki: My edits survive un-botted approaching 48 hours now.
re mal's question: It is possible that the edited version of the public-domain text of AL might qualify for a new term of copyright for the copyright holders. This would of course not have any effect on the public-domain status of the unedited original version, so might be seen as a bit pointless.
As to "kill/fill", and textual exegesis, more broadly: Are the various commandments to do, or not do, various things in AL actually meant to apply to Thelemites generally, or simply to AC personally?
Aren't Thelemites supposed to do their own wills, rather than listen to a text allegedly dictated to somebody else by their HGA?
Me: "the change from ‘Fill me’ to ‘Kill me’ within The Book of the Law associated with Aleister Crowley and/or one Aiwass, does further accentuate the pseudo-Egyptian nature of the symbolism used within the Thelema associated with Aleister Crowley"
lashtal, Keymaster: "Nonsense."
Lashtal, Keymaster, is it your specific position that the said "change from ‘Fill me’ to ‘Kill me’ within The Book of the Law", does not in itself, further accentuate the pseudo-Egyptian nature of the symbolism used within the Thelema associated with Aleister Crowley? I can sort of agree to that this change does not much further accentuate the pseudo-Egyptian nature of the symbolism used within the Thelema associated with Aleister Crowley. As this pseudo-Egyptian nature was already very prevalent within AC's The Book of the Law, before the "change from ‘Fill me’ to ‘Kill me’.
Or is it your general position that the symbolism used within the Thelema associated with Aleister Crowley is not pseudo-Egyptian in nature?
On this site you have written: "The influence of Egypt on Crowley has been an obsession of mine for many years ..." (source: https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/crowleys-egypt-article-in-the-pomegranate/#post-63567), and "... there’s a great deal of evidence that could lead one to suspect that Thelema is, at its core, a re-awakening (or, shall we say, a “re-imagining”?) of the ancient Egyptian religion." (source: https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/crowleys-egypt-article-in-the-pomegranate/page/2/#post-63587).
AC's Thelema at its core (= his most holy book for his Thelema, The Book of the Law) being a “re-imagining” of the ancient Egyptian religion, is not grounded in academia or scholarly thought, as it is the product of the author’s imagination. The ancient Egyptian religion is thus in the said book used in a pseudo-scholarly and pseudo-Egyptian way.
This short article describes an example of cult archaeology by a pseudo-scholar: Katherine Soule, “Valid Theories or an Overactive Imagination? Assessing Erich von Däniken’s Chariots of the Gods,” Armstrong Undergraduate Journal of History 3, no.3 (Nov. 2013) - - - https://www.armstrong.edu/history-journal/history-journal-valid-theories-or-an-overactive-imagination-assessing-erich