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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4087
17/04/2019 8:01 pm  

@wellreadwellbred

AC’s Thelema at its core (= his most holy book for his Thelema, The Book of the Law) being a “re-imagining”? of the ancient Egyptian religion, is not grounded in academia or scholarly thought, as it is the product of the author’s imagination. The ancient Egyptian religion is thus in the said book used in a pseudo-scholarly and pseudo-Egyptian way.

Please stop it. My sides have just split.


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2689
17/04/2019 8:18 pm  

@ignant666 One Fr. Christibrany also known as shit cry brain/Shit for Brains (thank you kindly Aleister in Wonderland Michael Tyranny) agrees with said post above by yourself, also known as ign'ant in regards to the said pointlessness of Well Bread's posts (that is bread from a water well, not healthy bread).

I don't think I can do the style justice but I tried.

@wellreadwellbread

How does changing 'fill' to 'kill' make it seem more Egyptian, or so-called pseudo-Egyptian? Not understanding the linkage.

@Mal yes it has harmed Thelema- as now an order (cOTO) also known as McOTO is the 'sole' 'legal' master of Thelema in most of the public's eyes, which is totally contrary to the freedom-espousing, libertarian nature of true Thelema. There is no Law but Do As Thou Wilt. That does not mean do 'as you like,' or 'what you want,' but rather means to do what your true inner/soul/hadit/HGA nature dictate for the betterment of your life/evolution/future.

You are here to experience this incarnation, to find that True Will. And how can you find that True Will if you are kow-towing, being a slave, and only performing what the Frater Superior says? That is why most sane lineages allow adherents to just use which version that they personally prefer.


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wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
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Posts: 1015
17/04/2019 8:21 pm  

Nitpicking aside, I disagree with the change, as the text of The Book of the Law was allegedly dictated to AC by his HGA, as just pointed out by ignant666 in this thread, and my position is thus that it was up to AC and no one else, to implement any change of a letter in this text.

And my answer to ingnant666's question just asked in this thread; "Aren’t Thelemites supposed to do their own wills, rather than listen to a text allegedly dictated to somebody else by their HGA?", is, yes.


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2689
17/04/2019 8:24 pm  

man...wellread your 'explanatory' post does not explain WHY changing fill to kill makes it more or less Egyptian...at ALL! You just say 'I think it makes it so' in about 5 different verbose ways without saying why, and then paste some quote which is not germane.

*joining Michael in a kind of exasperated attempt at laughing*

edit to say you finally posted a reason 'because AC's HGA gave him the BOTL' I guess that still doesn't explain why 'fill' or 'kill' are more or less Egyptian than the other.


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3224
17/04/2019 8:27 pm  

Great gods and gracious goddesses, wrwb, you have actually typed a couple straightforward sentences with a clear meaning!

So now we know you can in fact do this- are the robots and/or Martians taking lunch or something?

If only all your posts were so clear and concise!


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elitemachinery
(@elitemachinery)
Member
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 507
17/04/2019 8:51 pm  

@christibrany said:

"One Fr. Christibrany also known as shit cry brain/Shit for Brains (thank you kindly Aleister in Wonderland Michael Tyranny)"

Lmao! Nice to that you have found some humor in the mud-slinging that goes around on Lasthal.

I do enjoy reading the banter here on a regular basis. But it can get quite hostile at times!

@ignant666 said:

"It is possible that the edited version of the public-domain text of AL might qualify for a new term of copyright for the copyright holders. This would of course not have any effect on the public-domain status of the unedited original version, so might be seen as a bit pointless."

This never crossed my mind but makes sense to me. Given the OTO's aggressive policing of copyrights I would be willing to believe that this is the real reason for making an edit. Beautiful new hardcover editions could be printed with color plates of art and sold as the only true final edition of Liber Al, fully endorsed by the holy rollers at OTO.


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3224
17/04/2019 9:00 pm  

Hostile schmostile, em! You should try attending a university faculty meeting some time, you wanna see hostile.

This place is mere tiddlywinks compared to actual hostility such as is practiced in the groves of academe, or for that matter, restaurant kitchens (two places i know all too well). As far as i know, now that S.'. H.'. Fra. Los 8=3 has, um, left the building, as the kids say, no one here actually hates anyone else (i would be thrilled to know someone hates me, of course).

Just arguing and disagreeing like siblings do (as AL instructs or comments- is "As brothers fight ye!" actually an instruction?).


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
Owner and Editor Admin
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 5328
17/04/2019 11:21 pm  

@wellreadwellbred:

Lashtal, Keymaster, is it your specific position that the said “change from ‘Fill me’ to ‘Kill me’ within The Book of the Law”, does not in itself, further accentuate the pseudo-Egyptian nature of the symbolism used within the Thelema associated with Aleister Crowley? I can sort of agree to that this change does not much further accentuate the pseudo-Egyptian nature of the symbolism used within the Thelema associated with Aleister Crowley. As this pseudo-Egyptian nature was already very prevalent within AC’s The Book of the Law, before the “change from ‘Fill me’ to ‘Kill me’.

Or is it your general position that the symbolism used within the Thelema associated with Aleister Crowley is not pseudo-Egyptian in nature?

The symbolism is not 'pseudo-Egyptian' - in many ways AC's account of ancient Egyptian mythology/cosmology more closely mirrors modern understanding than it does the views prevalent at the time he was writing (e.g. in E A Wallis Budge's work).

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1015
17/04/2019 11:24 pm  

christibrany: "How does changing ‘fill’ to ‘kill’ make it seem more Egyptian, or so-called pseudo-Egyptian? Not understanding the linkage. [...] edit to say you finally posted a reason ‘because AC’s HGA gave him the BOTL’ I guess that still doesn’t explain why ‘fill’ or ‘kill’ are more or less Egyptian than the other."

It makes BOTL 'less Egyptian', or rather more pseudo-Egyptian or more counterfeit-Egyptian or more quasi-Egyptian, because the ancient Egyptians (like the Ankh-af-na-khonsu mentioned in BOTL) were fanatic about safeguarding their individuality and civil status into perpetuity, in their life after death. It would have been incomprehensible and outrageous for an ancient Egyptian like Ankh-af-na-khonsu, to have the text on his Stele described as containing the words ‘let it kill me’, because the ultimate purpose of this Stele (funeral tablet) was safeguarding his individuality and civil status into perpetuity, in his life after his death.

If you search for the word perpetuity in the thread https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/my-quotes-from-comment-to-download-timothy-moss-squaring-the-circle/, you can find much more on ancient Egyptian spirituality, with respect to the funeral tablet mentioned in BOTL.


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RuneLogIX
(@runelogix)
Magister
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 372
18/04/2019 3:29 am  

"Given the OTO’s aggressive policing of copyrights I would be willing to believe that this is the real reason for making an edit. Beautiful new hardcover editions could be printed with color plates of art and sold as the only true final edition of Liber Al, fully endorsed by the holy rollers at OTO."

Unironically the new Grand Lodge copies of Liber Al are like this.

Force and Fire is not metaphorical. In Prophetes Veritas Venit.


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Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 1628
18/04/2019 4:52 am  

[…] fully endorsed by the holy rollers at OTO.
You mean, [c]OTO or the Caliphornian "OTO" there, don't you (that's also variously referred to as the [after Greedy] "McOTO" & in-quotation-marks "OTO", Inc)?

Unironically the new Grand Lodge copies of Liber Al are like this.
(Holy) Roller-Up! (Holy) Roller-Up!

What was that AC remarked about something being like the papyrus of Ani again?
Z Joy


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3224
18/04/2019 1:16 pm  

Not [c]OTO, but (c)OTO, the (c) being how the copyright symbol © was rendered back when we just had typewriters, so really ©OTO. C of course could also as you point out stand for Caliph, or California.

Some of the kids may not be aware of why AC dubbed Grady with the "Caliph" title- nowadays, postal addresses in the US use standard two-letter abbreviations for the states- so California is CA, Massachusetts is MA, Wyoming is WY, etc. But back when AC was writing letters to Grady, those state abbreviations were Calif., Mass., and Wyo. respectively.

"Caliph" was a punning reference to Grady's home state of Calif., not any kind of serious Thelemic title for the man he dubbed "Cunt Number One" [AC's translation of "Hymenaeus Alpha"].


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Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
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Posts: 1628
19/04/2019 2:28 am  

Quite right - an excellent fleshing out of my point about the phenomenon which is (c)oto, and the reason why I didn't put the ©OTO was because I couldn't avail myself of the symbol on the keyboard at the time there.

I prefer the "c" to stand for "Caliphornian" (rather than, e.g., "Caliphate") myself because it succeeds in combining the more risible double-edged 'compliment' of the Caliph from Crowley with the fact that the corporate (another 'c') organization originated from California. In 1977. Not 1935, 1902, the Middle Ages or way back in the remote mists of Antiquity.

I have often wondered why Bill Breeze would deliberately have set himself up for trouble - or at least a modicum of mickey-taking - in knowingly deciding to style himself Hymenaeus Beta, or as you everso correctly aver "Cunt Number Two" (yet another 'c' word!). I suppose it must just go to show what is becoming more and more of a characteristic: a lack of judgement and foresight?

I have also sometimes wondered what the odds might be on his successor nonetheless carrying on the trend and choosing to call him (or indeed her) self Hymenaeus Gamma, thus furthering that illustrious dynasty well into the future. They must be at least thirty to one against, surely?

With no numerically hidden meaning,
N Joy


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dom
 dom
(@dom)
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Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 2444
20/04/2019 12:19 pm  

@machinery

Lmao! Nice to that you have found some humor in the mud-slinging that goes around on Lasthal.
I do enjoy reading the banter here on a regular basis. But it can get quite hostile at times!

Yeah I've been crucified on Lashtal...or was it just my cumbersome Zeppelin-sized ego that was burst?

Haha.

@ig666

Of course, it is possible to be both sincere and a troll- S.’. H.’. Fra. Los 8=3 (probably 9=2 by now) being our local prime example............….Incidentally, he claimed he has a Ph.D. a couple months ago, one from an actual terrestrial and presumably accredited university. This is possibly the most ludicrous thing he has ever said; there are some shitty Ph.D. programs in this world, but none shitty enough to let someone like Los get a doctorate.

Well I doubt it's in Philosophy. Seeing as he constantly referred to James Joyce and Blake on his blog I would guess that it's English Literature.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
Member
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Posts: 1628
20/04/2019 4:39 pm  

... or was it just my cumbersome Zeppelin-sized ego that was burst?
But - it's (you're) back again!

Ha, Ha!
N Joy


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5200
20/04/2019 8:19 pm  

d: I ... would guess that it’s English Literature.

A good guess.

jb: ... back again!

Oh, it's another of those Universal Principles. The aspirant undergoes terrible, ego-deflating experiences, may actually get a glimpse of a greater glory, but it all tends to wear off. The ego, laying unconscious over there in the corner, comes back to sentient, separate-being awareness, and immediatly proclaims, "Look at what I have accomplished!"

My comment is not aimed at dom, but merely a recitation of the Universal Principle involved in the discussion.

Note: This cycle's lease expires upon reaching Binah ... and receiving an imprint in that exalted realm. The vehicle still displays personal qualities (All is as it ever was)(see the persona of AC) , but the "pipeline" to nada is open, and he/she can communicate with Atma, the universal self, without further ego-inflation.


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dom
 dom
(@dom)
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Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 2444
21/04/2019 11:03 am  

@jamiebarter

But – it’s (you’re) back again!

HaHa

I guess.

Shiva, interesting info. I like the description seems very mechanical ha.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1015
19/05/2019 5:07 pm  

wellreadwellbred: "... is it your general position that the symbolism used within the Thelema associated with Aleister Crowley is not pseudo-Egyptian in nature?"

lashtal Keymaster: "The symbolism is not ‘pseudo-Egyptian’ – in many ways AC’s account of ancient Egyptian mythology/cosmology more closely mirrors modern understanding than it does the views prevalent at the time he was writing (e.g. in E A Wallis Budge’s work)."

Where can I find documentation demonstrating that the modern academic understanding of ancient mythology/cosmology, mirrors AC’s account of it, in his comments to his The Book of the Law?

Comments where Nuit and Hadit are described by AC as including "all possible forms of existence" (source: AC’s The New Comment to AL I,29)". Where AC describes Ra-Hoor-Khuit as "the active form twin to Harpocrates" (source: AC’s The New Comment to AL I,7)). Where AC described "Hoor" as "the Initiator" (source: AC’s The Old Comment to AL I,49), and "Ra-Hoor-Khuit" as "Kether, Unity, is always itself" (source: AC’s The New Comment to AL II,2). Describes "respectively Nuith and Hadit" as reflected "from the Ain and Kether" (source: AC’s The New Comment to AL II,5).

Where AC states that “… this is characteristic of Ra-Hoor-Khuit, that He demands not words, but acts.”, (source: AC’s The New Comment to AL III,2)., that “Ra-Hoor-Khuit is the Crowned and Conquering Child. This is also a reference to the 'Crowned' and Conquering 'Child' in ourselves, our own personal God.", (source: AC’s The New Comment to AL III,22), and "... that Ra-Hoor-Khuit is in one sense the Silent Self in a man ...“, (source: AC’s The New Comment to AL III,62).

And where AC states that “Ra-Hoor-Khuit; […] is finite form of Unity, child of two married infinities ...”, (source: AC’s The New Comment to AL III,67).


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Aleister Crowley
(@aleistercrowley)
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06/07/2019 5:57 pm  

fill me


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Aleister Crowley
(@aleistercrowley)
Member
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Posts: 3
06/07/2019 6:08 pm  

I think the debate ends with the actual handwritten Manuscript, written by Crowley's own hand during the Aiwass transmission. All other debate is just wiffle waffle nonsense. Totally irrelevant. Even IF Crowley had wanted to change his poetic paraphrase later on, does that mean that even HE would be allowed to? Let alone another? The fact that he wrote only 2 words of HIS OWN POETRY, and those words are clearly FILL ME, speaks louder than all the 3 PDF volumes of diatribe wiffle waffle that HB wrote to justify this nonsense. Crowley wrote 'FILL ME' on the bloody manuscript itself for RHK's sake! how can anyone debate that?
If he later on decided that he wanted to change his poetic paraphrase to say 'kill me', so what? That was later. And the fact that it got into multiple publications of Liber AL, shows that Crowley clearly did not care about changing it. Are we seriously to believe that Crowley never wrote a single diary entry about this massive printing error - if it really was an error? It is ludicrous to suggest that during his lifetime he would never publish a version of Liber AL with the world 'kill', if that was really his intention.
I would even go further and say that even IF Crowley wanted it to say 'kill' - the fact that he wrote 'fill me' ON THE MANUSCRIPT - is enough to tell us that Aiwass wanted it that way.


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hermitas
(@hermitas)
Member
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 44
02/09/2019 4:38 pm  

Yeah, I know I’m not accomplishing anything, nor am I trying to reignite old debates.

Just playing along...

“Fill me.”

Two reasons:

1. “Change not as much as the style of a letter; for behold! thou, o prophet, shalt not behold all these mysteries hidden therein.”

2. “Let it kill me” is fundamentally Osirian.

93


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