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Yeheshuah
(@yeheshuah)
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02/04/2015 1:11 am  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law!

We have had an interesting discussion in a couple of places on the contents and value of Liber Agape.  This post is an attempt to funnel those insights into a single thread.  I did a check and really not much has been said on these boards about Liber Agape, so I am hoping to develop a deeper analysis of that document.  I would point people for some reading to the most recent discussions under the title Thelemic Practice at http://www.lashtal.com/forum/http://www.lashtal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5 and the title A Most Sacred Greeting at http://www.lashtal.com/forum/http://www.lashtal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2

Shiva, your post at http://www.lashtal.com/forum/http://www.lashtal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=89379#p89379 was a frank discounting of Agape's value, much appreciated, by the way.  So I did some digging through the documents in my possession and in my copy of Rituals and Sex Magick edited and compiled by Naylor all of the IX[sup:r7scxtpk]o[/sup:r7scxtpk] documents seem to be accounted for, including Emblems and Modes of Use.  Contrary to your presentation of the document, however, there is no clear discussion of the IX degree ritual, but it is all in coded language, though a code not all that difficult to decipher, it seems.  So I am unclear on how you found Emblems of any value, but found Agape useless?  Is it because Agape is on its face offensive to the thelemic mind? That would seem to me to make it all the more intriguing.  Have you considered the possibility that the broken sticks did not align?

Yeheshuah

Love is the law, love under will.


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Shiva
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02/04/2015 3:17 pm  
"Yeheshuah" wrote:
Contrary to your presentation of the document, however, there is no clear discussion of the IX degree ritual ...

Um, which ritual do you mean? There is the Initiation Ritual and there is the Magickal Ritual. The Initiation Ritual has been described as that rite described in Energized Enthusiam, with the IXº candidate taking the position of Priest, and helping to produce the "Philosopher's Stone." And there is the actual Initiation Rite as (apparently) practiced by Jane Wolfe and Frater Aquarius, and (certainly) by Soror Capricornus who was also known as Baphomet, all described in hints in Inside Solar Lodge.

The Magickal Ritual is really no more than sexual congress with an added gesture or two after "congregating" 😮

But then we find a whole range of "rituals," within which the "secret" is concealed, and which may be acted out in conjunction with the "secret." The main contenders are Ch 36 of The Book of Lies, which is also included in Liber Agape, and there is the Latin-based ritual that is included in Liber Agape, and there is the ritual described in Energized Enthusiasm, and there is the Gnostic Mass, and there are the instructions in Agape that are simply suggestions (being unnecessary), and there are assorted asanas described in Kama Sutra, etc.

So I am unclear on how you found Emblems of any value, but found Agape useless?

Embems describes the "secret" in common everyday language. Agape hints and uses symbolic language. Any person who had a copy of Emblems, and who read it, would find nothing new by then reading Agape. Any person who had a copy of Agape, and who read it, would probably guess at the "secret," but might not be sure, but then they could confirm (or deny) their guess by secondarily reading Emblems.

Is it because Agape is on its face offensive to the thelemic mind?

I never found it "offensive," and I doubt if it offends most Thelemites. Although we all probably find the Christian references to be a bit strange, especially knowing AC's position toward that religion.

Have you considered the possibility that the broken sticks did not align?

No. Because I have no idea what sticks, broken or unbroken, you are making symbolic reference to ???


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Yeheshuah
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02/04/2015 6:19 pm  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law!

Shiva,

In Liber Agape we read:

Our brethren in China, to confirm a bargain, break the stick on which it is
written, each party keeping half, so that only on the fitting together of the two halves
can the covenant be complete. So also is the Kingdom of Heaven.

So also is this instruction. Unless the other half be in thy mind, thou wilt not
understand.

This then is the Covenant of the Creator, dividing that he may unite.

In our Lord Jesus Christ is the Great Work accomplished.

As to Emblems and Mode of Use, this is as clear as the document gets:

                  Conditions of the Operation
Both Lion and Eagle must be robust, in good health (as a rule; but a sick Lion can often heal himself) overflowing with energy, magnetically attracted to one another, and in absolute understanding harmony about the object of the operation.

The actual operation is not described in clear language and the participants are described in code, not in common everyday language, as you suggested.  It is quite obvious, though, that the operation is sexual in nature.  But that knowledge does little to shed light on Agape. 

As to Crowley's use of Christian language, he actually makes use of Christian imagery quite often; it is simply lost on most readers, I would guess.  Just as an instance, Liber Aleph teaches "except ye become as little Children ye shall in no wise enter into the Kingdom of Heaven."  Such Christian references are quite common in Crowley.  Not so common as to overwhelm, but common enough to be notable.  Even in the AA curriculum he included the writings of Molinos who was a Christian mystic.  I think Christianity was more than a passing concern for Crowley, though muted and secret.

Yeheshuah

Love is the law, love under will.


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jamie barter
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02/04/2015 8:32 pm  
"Yeheshuah" wrote:
As to Emblems and Mode of Use, this is as clear as the document gets:

                  Conditions of the Operation
Both Lion and Eagle must be robust, in good health (as a rule; but a sick Lion can often heal himself) overflowing with energy, magnetically attracted to one another, and in absolute understanding harmony about the object of the operation.

The actual operation is not described in clear language and the participants are described in code, not in common everyday language, as you suggested.  It is quite obvious, though, that the operation is sexual in nature.  But that knowledge does little to shed light on Agape.

While in agreement that this should no doubt be the case in theory, I wonder nevertheless whether this can have applied with A.C.’s frequent use (especially in later years) of street prostitutes to assist in the IX[sup:ncjx9vvr]o[/sup:ncjx9vvr] operation?  I would have thought that their interest as partners in the “ritual” would be primarily financial rather than, ahem magnetic, and that they would therefore hardly be in a position of “absolute understanding harmony” since it was unlikely he would have had the time (at least) to adequately explain the esoteric purpose and the symbolism behind the act to them first.

Or could I be mistaken, does anyone kno?

Norma N Joy Conquest


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Shiva
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02/04/2015 9:27 pm  
"Yeheshuah" wrote:
"Our brethren in China, to confirm a bargain, break the stick on which it is written ..."

Right. I remember that now. Old-time practice.

As to Emblems and Mode of Use, this is as clear as the document gets:
Both Lion and Eagle must be robust ... etc. ... It is quite obvious, though, that the operation is sexual in nature.

Yes, it's obvious, and I know of nobody who's read it that that doesn't understand it.

... he actually makes use of Christian imagery quite often ...

Yes, yea, yes 😀  We know. His indoctrination-imprinting into Christianity as a child has been discussed over and over on these forums. It has been motioned and seconded that we realize that all prophets and writers and chanellers are going to use language and symbols that are derived from their earlier studies and programming.

Lookit here, son. You've got some Jesus bhakti thing going on. If you take it up here, in a Thelemic sense, then you'll probably gets mixed reviews. If you take it over to the Theosophical-Arcane-Transhimalayan White Brotherhood, they'll welcome you with open arms. For them (all the believers in the Mahatmas and the Ascended Masters), Jesus, whose "real name" is suggested to be Sananda, is the Master (Chohan - "Lord") of the sixth ray of devotion.  I've covered all this before and don't intend to get bogged down in a Jesus/Crowley discussion. Go to
http://crystal-chip.angelfire.com/zip06.htm
it's not very long, and then if you have anything else to say, I'll be happy to hear it.

(I send you to my webpage so that you can see I have dealt with Jesus and Bhakti without prejudice) 8)

... it is simply lost on most readers, I would guess.  Just as an instance ...

"O FRATER PERDURABO, O Lamp in The Abyss? Thou hast the Keystone of the Royal Arch; yet the Apprentices, instead of making bricks, put the straws in their hair, and think they are Jesus Christ!"

"The new Christ, like the old, is the friend of publicans and sinners; because his nature is ascetic ... In the penultimate paragraph the words "the new Christ" alluded to the author."

"Death = Nun, the letter before O, means a fish, a symbol of Christ, and also by its shape the Female principle."

"Thoth, the god of Magick, is the inventor of speech; Christ is the Logos."

Quotes (^) courtesy of Liber 333 (c)OTO.

I think Christianity was more than a passing concern for Crowley, though muted and secret.

Right. You are speaking of the man who said he'd give all of his magickal powers to destroy Christianity.


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Shiva
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02/04/2015 9:39 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
I would have thought that their interest as partners in the “ritual” would be primarily financial rather than, ahem magnetic ... Or could I be mistaken, does anyone kno?

The Shadow knos ;D  All I know is that AC wrote a lot of high-minded stuff with many thous and doests and shalts, but his diaries, personal letters, and [auto]biographies tell of a sex-driven drug addict who was usually looking for a loan.

We all know this. I think it was recently called "the peaks and the troughs." We respect him for his written works and are thankful that we have avoided his terrible daily ordeals.

"But I will hide thee in a mask of sorrow: they that see thee shall fear thou art fallen: but I lift thee up."
- Indeed and Amen-ra


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
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03/04/2015 12:27 am  

I also am mineself taken aback-est by his biblical-esque language. sic 😉  What a Joker!
Laugh and the whole world laughs with you. Cry and you cry alone.


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Yeheshuah
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03/04/2015 1:18 am  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law!

Shiva,

My intention is not to push the Jesus message here, although I can see how it seems that way.  I have had plenty of time on that topic.  My primary intention for this thread is to generate some close readings of Liber Agape, maybe cook up some experiments in light of that document. 

Yeheshuah

Love is the law, love under will.


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Shiva
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03/04/2015 1:44 am  
"Yeheshuah" wrote:
... maybe cook up some experiments in light of that document.

Oh 😮

Now you wouldn't be fishing around for some willing participants, er, partners, er, conspirators, would you?

I guess I'll get out now, while my Hymenaeus is still intact 😉

Anybody waiting on the lines to step in as part of a tag team?

Tag!  You're it!


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Yeheshuah
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03/04/2015 1:48 am  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law!

Poorly chosen words on my part!  But they do reveal my take on Liber Agape in a sideways sort of manner.  I don't take the sexual magick as central to the document.  In fact, I find that all rather boring. 

Y

Love is the law, love under will.


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jamie barter
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03/04/2015 3:30 pm  

As this is also Good Friday, it seems timely to throw into the ‘Jesus’ part of the discussion the following from "The Temple of Solomon The King" in The Equinox Vol I No. VIII (p. 32):

July 27th [1906]:
Here we have a most extraordinary entry, which needs explanation and illustration.

Fra. P. was crucified by Fra. D.D.S. [G.C. Jones], and on that cross was made to repeat this oath: “I, P


, a member of the body of Christ, do hereby solemnly obligate myself, etc., to lead a pure and unselfish life [etc]

[…] “Complete and perfect visualisation of …" Here are hieroglyphs which may mean “Christ as P


on cross.” […] But Fra. P. made also a sketch of the vision which we here copy and reproduce.

Unfortunately I am unable to reproduce the drawing as indicated, although it is an interesting one and throws further light upon my contention that A.C.’s “Teaching” prior to his Samadhi/ ‘being possessed by the spirit of’ or conversion to Thelema in October 1906, would primarily have been concerned with Esoteric [Gnostic Neo-]Christianity.  Hopefully someone else with the tech may be able to oblige?

N Joy


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belmurru
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03/04/2015 4:40 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
As this is also Good Friday, it seems timely to throw into the ‘Jesus’ part of the discussion the following from "The Temple of Solomon The King" in The Equinox Vol I No. VIII (p. 32):

July 27th [1906]:
Here we have a most extraordinary entry, which needs explanation and illustration.

Fra. P. was crucified by Fra. D.D.S. [G.C. Jones], and on that cross was made to repeat this oath: “I, P


, a member of the body of Christ, do hereby solemnly obligate myself, etc., to lead a pure and unselfish life [etc]

[…] “Complete and perfect visualisation of …" Here are hieroglyphs which may mean “Christ as P


on cross.” […] But Fra. P. made also a sketch of the vision which we here copy and reproduce.

Unfortunately I am unable to reproduce the drawing as indicated, although it is an interesting one and throws further light upon my contention that A.C.’s “Teaching” prior to his Samadhi/ ‘being possessed by the spirit of’ or conversion to Thelema in October 1906, would primarily have been concerned with Esoteric [Gnostic Neo-]Christianity.  Hopefully someone else with the tech may be able to oblige?

N Joy

I always thought this was interesting - outside of its intrinsic biographical interest - as being possibly the only representation I know of of George Cecil Jones, whom Crowley says looked like Jesus.

The nature of the ritual is obscure; was he really, literally, crucified? Nails through hands, etc.? I wouldn't put it past them. Jones was the one who suggested the razor technique later used in Liber Jugorum, IIRC, so these two were not squeamish types.

"Paroketh" up and down the light.
Milites - the Soldiers at the foot of the Cross.
Judaei - Jewish onlookers, mockers.
Mater - Mary
Johannes - John (the Beloved Disciple)

"Golgotha" underneath the Cross.

I can't make out what is on the crosses of the Good and Bad Thieves. 

The next day, according to the diary, he and Jones begin discussing a new Order.


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Shiva
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03/04/2015 5:10 pm  
"belmurru" wrote:
The next day, according to the diary, he and Jones begin discussing a new Order.

Yet, "OrdO A.'.A.'." is right here (in the pic) the day before they began discussing it. Maybe there had already been some sort of "prior discussion?" Probably so, otherwise the word "OrdO" would not be present. Or ... the pic was created after the crux and the initial discussion?

More mysteries to be resolved? Yeah, but only minor ones. What counts is that these two conspirators got together and re-started (resurrected?) the Order ... with new bells and whistles.

I cannot remember - who was the third dude who joined with them (in order to formulate the traditionally=required triad)?

One is alone.
Two is company.
Three is an Order.
[/align:25du8388]


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belmurru
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03/04/2015 5:17 pm  

A.A. was already the GD title for the Inner Order, that of the Secret Chiefs 8=3, 9=2 and 10=1. This is what they aspired to contact, or become initiated to.

The picture is based on a "sketch of the vision" Crowley made at the time - this looks like Fuller's work to me; in any case, it was only published in 1912.

Fuller was the third in the triad. He begins appearing as "N.S.F" (Non Sine Fulmine - Not without Lightning/Thunder) the 5=6 authority on the A.A. publications in the Equinox. I do not know where or when Fuller "attained" this grade. His own words in his biographical introduction to Crowley in the Bibliotheca Crowleyana suggest he never took the whole thing very seriously.


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Shiva
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03/04/2015 5:32 pm  
"belmurru" wrote:
A.A. was already the GD title for the Inner Order, that of the Secret Chiefs 8=3, 9=2 and 10=1. This is what they aspired to contact, or become initiated to.

Okay, I didn't know that. But, surely, it must have been the supernal order, as "inner order" was clearly used for the RR et AC (5=6, 6=5, 7=4). Right?

Fuller was the third in the triad.

Okay, I didn't know that either - thanks.

I do not know where or when Fuller "attained" this grade. His own words ... suggest he never took the whole thing very seriously.

Well, we see a lot of that from time to time.


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William Thirteen
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03/04/2015 8:26 pm  

thanks belmurru. your contributions are always well researched, informative & refreshing; a welcome alternative to this forum's usual horn blowing and hot air...


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Tao
 Tao
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03/04/2015 8:51 pm  

The LAShTAL crewe:


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jamie barter
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04/04/2015 1:02 pm  

Thanks very much for your assistance there belmurru, which hopefully makes the issue that much plainer.  I would only add further that the drawing had the title “THE CRUCIFIXION OF FRA. P.” [sic].

"belmurru" wrote:
I always thought this was interesting - outside of its intrinsic biographical interest - as being possibly the only representation I know of of George Cecil Jones, whom Crowley says looked like Jesus.

There is also the representation of him in Crowley’s painting "May Morn", the frontispiece of The Blue Equinox (which I have always admired as one of his finest and was also intended to be the new cover of the revised second edition of Francis King’s Secret Rituals of the O.T.O..)

"belmurru" wrote:
Fuller was the third in the triad. He begins appearing as "N.S.F" (Non Sine Fulmine - Not without Lightning/Thunder) the 5=6 authority on the A.A. publications in the Equinox. I do not know where or when Fuller "attained" this grade. His own words in his biographical introduction to Crowley in the Bibliotheca Crowleyana suggest he never took the whole thing very seriously.

And yet by the beginning of the next issue of The Equinox, Vol I No IX, there had been a break with Fuller, and A.C. declared there that he had not advanced beyond the Grade of Probationer in the A.’. A.’. and warned aspirants off against contacting him in the hope of his being a Neophyte to their own Probation.

"Shiva" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
I would have thought that their interest as partners in the “ritual” would be primarily financial rather than, ahem magnetic ... Or could I be mistaken, does anyone kno?

The Shadow knos ;D  All I know is that AC wrote a lot of high-minded stuff with many thous and doests and shalts, but his diaries, personal letters, and [auto]biographies tell of a sex-driven drug addict who was usually looking for a loan.

We all know this. I think it was recently called "the peaks and the troughs." We respect him for his written works and are thankful that we have avoided his terrible daily ordeals.

"But I will hide thee in a mask of sorrow: they that see thee shall fear thou art fallen: but I lift thee up."
- Indeed and Amen-ra

Thou speakest the truth verily, thou speakest the truth.  There appeareth to be a modicum of “thou shalt do as I sayeth, not as I doeth” here..  One wondereth about the accuracy of his sex magickal technique, when - the “Rex” and not the “Regina” partaketh of “De Arte Regia” or “the Royal Art” and only 50% of it (the conditions) were carrieth out.  Maybe it is hardly surprising that according to his magickal records his actual success rate using the IX[sup:7c6w3ict]o[/sup:7c6w3ict] (and XI[sup:7c6w3ict]o[/sup:7c6w3ict] ?) appeareth to be so low!?

N Joy


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jamie barter
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04/04/2015 4:32 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
"belmurru" wrote:
Fuller was the third in the triad. He begins appearing as "N.S.F" (Non Sine Fulmine - Not without Lightning/Thunder) the 5=6 authority on the A.A. publications in the Equinox. I do not know where or when Fuller "attained" this grade. His own words in his biographical introduction to Crowley in the Bibliotheca Crowleyana suggest he never took the whole thing very seriously.

And yet by the beginning of the next issue of The Equinox, Vol I No IX, there had been a break with Fuller, and A.C. declared there that he had not advanced beyond the Grade of Probationer in the A.’. A.’. and warned aspirants off against contacting him in the hope of his being a Neophyte to their own Probation.

I include the following for further information as an addendum to the above:

The Chancellor of the A.’. A.’. wishes to warn readers of THE EQUINOX against accepting instruction in his name from an ex-Probationer, Captain J.F.C. Fuller, whose motto was “Per Ardua.”  This person never advanced beyond the Degree of Probationer, never sent in a record, and has presumably neither performed practices nor obtained results.  He has not, and never has had, authority to give instructions in the name of the A.’. A.’.

The Equinox Vol I No. IX, p. ii[/align:38wejhzk]

And all of this concerning somebody who was to all appearances the original third member of the A.’. A.’. triad! 

‘ware the vengeful wrath of a vexated Beast is all I can say…
N Joy


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steve_wilson
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06/04/2015 1:00 am  
"Shiva" wrote:
[quote author=Yeheshuah
I guess I'll get out now, while my Hymenaeus is still intact 😉

Do you ever have the Carry On movies in the States? I ask because when I read that sentence I heard Sid James say it, and immediately cast him in the leading role in Carry On Cefalu. or Up Lots of Khybers.


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jamie barter
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07/04/2015 5:11 pm  
"steve_wilson" wrote:
"Shiva" wrote:
I guess I'll get out now, while my Hymenaeus is still intact 😉

Do you ever have the Carry On movies in the States? I ask because when I read that sentence I heard Sid James say it, and immediately cast him in the leading role in Carry On Cefalu. or Up Lots of Khybers.

Sid wasn’t camp enough for that though, steve!  Kenneth (oooh matron) Williams might have been better choice – even possibly Charles Hawtrey!  Or maybe - best of all - Frankie Howerd in a walk-on role? (ooh no, missus.  My hymenaeus, you say?  Not on your nellie!)

American readers who are not familiar with the brand could do a lot worse than by starting off their acquaintance with Carry On Cowboy, which takes the piss out of several pieces of hallowed Wild West iconography rather amusingly (for our ribald British tastes, that is.  If memory serves - a saloon bar tart played by Joan Sims: “Hi there, ma name’s Belle.” - “Please ta meetya, Belle.  Why not ask me to come up 'n' give you a clang sometime? Ha ha ha!" (=filthy laugh)  You get the idea?  Sid does deliver the line funnier than it reads here, though.)

Carry On Cefalu sounds a promising enterprise, however - anyone got the bucks to back it up? I volunteer to help with the script if it ever gets going – maybe we could have a sub-plot with an espionage theme à la A.C.’s purported involvement with British Intelligence?  (There could perhaps be a supervillain called Choron Zon, out to steal a purported secret inner Book of the Law or a secret IX[sup:3p7vn8un]o[/sup:3p7vn8un] ritual or some other secret somethingorother).  Or then again perhaps not.

,n jOy


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Shiva
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07/04/2015 6:57 pm  
"steve_wilson" wrote:
Do you ever have the Carry On movies in the States?

Not that I know of - at least, I've not seen one.


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OKontrair
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07/04/2015 7:14 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
Not that I know of - at least, I've not seen one.

sample:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvs4bOMv5Xw


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wellreadwellbred
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10/04/2015 12:50 am  
"jamie barter" wrote:
Carry On Cefalu sounds a promising enterprise, however - anyone got the bucks to back it up? I volunteer to help with the script if it ever gets going – maybe we could have a sub-plot with an espionage theme à la A.C.’s purported involvement with British Intelligence?  (There could perhaps be a supervillain called Choron Zon, out to steal a purported secret inner Book of the Law ...

As it would not be possible to steal a secret inner Book of the Law contained within The Book of the Law, the super-villain should rather be out to keep the secret inner Book of the Law a secret, at all cost.


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jamie barter
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10/04/2015 4:08 pm  

OK well, although I was writing under the influence of whimsy there (n.b. not whisky), maybe you can be down as script consultant.

I don‘t decide these matters though; that would be up to the producer who hasn’t yet come forward to make him/herself known. 

Do carry on as normal in the meantime, however
N Joy


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