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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
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20/08/2009 6:45 pm  

Can anyone, from their own experience, tell me of a time they felt violence arising within them without attachment being present?

Or alternatively - can anyone tell me, from their own experience, of a time they felt agape with attachment also being present?

I think agape and attachment are like oil and water - they don't mix 'in the moment' in a human being. But I'd rather throw the question in the air and ask you. From your own experience please... 🙂

Love under Will.


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spike418
(@spike418)
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Posts: 213
20/08/2009 7:10 pm  

Hmmm, been on Erwins site lately? 😉


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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20/08/2009 8:40 pm  

Hmmm, been on Erwins site lately?

Apparently, all 3 of us have! 😉


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
20/08/2009 9:13 pm  

Lol - I'm thinking of a reply... 😉

And getting into all sorts of gender issues as I do!.

I don't agree with him. I just have to work out why now...lolololol.

*Alrah lights a flame to her pink fluffy bunny tail!* 😛


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
20/08/2009 10:12 pm  

What's this about? Anything new?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
20/08/2009 10:35 pm  

New? Noooo. Very old. Dust and sawdust stuff really.

Erwins trying to make a case for Will being rooted in the body, including being violent (the natural violent man) and I'm saying Will is nothing to do with attachment and all violence is about attachment - even attachment to the body as the root of the survival instinct.

Currently subject to approval: "while you’re in the moment of a fight you’re just focused and you’re doing what you have to do to survive – but all those instinctive reactions are attachement to the body. You may not think or be concerned with attachment but nevertheless – self preservation is what’s causing you to fight.

And running up to the fight – it’s usually ego conflict that causes the fight – attachment to self image. You may not have the luxery of reflecting about all this, but then the practise is supposed to help you recognise them as they arise in the moment so that shit kicking is not necessary.

As for agape – you didn’t answer the question – you just spooned your former works which I’ve already read and I’m applying the word agape as you illustrated it in your writings."

Very old dusty stuff really. But you know I secretly love Erwin. 😉


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mika
 mika
(@mika)
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Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 363
20/08/2009 11:18 pm  
"alrah" wrote:
Erwins trying to make a case for Will being rooted in the body

Of course Will is rooted in the body, just like every other aspect of human existence.

"alrah" wrote:
I'm saying Will is nothing to do with attachment

OK, but, what does that have to do with the claim that Will is rooted in the body? Do you consider anything that is rooted in the body to be a result of or dependent on attachment? If that is the case, then only way for you to practice non-attachment is to physically die.

Regarding your original question, violence does not arise within me, as violence is not an emotion or a thought, it is a description of a type of action. And yes, I have acted violently without attachment being present, for example whenever I practice kickboxing at the gym. Or when I whip and torture a willing victim. Or when I kill a mouse to feed my snake.

Regarding agape, according to my understanding of the concept, agape is by definition love without attachment.


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spike418
(@spike418)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 213
20/08/2009 11:22 pm  
"alrah" wrote:
Lol - I'm thinking of a reply... 😉

And getting into all sorts of gender issues as I do!.

I don't agree with him. I just have to work out why now...lolololol.

*Alrah lights a flame to her pink fluffy bunny tail!* 😛

I have several replies at hand but to be honest I feel like paraphrasing that old chestnut.

"Those that can do, those that can't blog"


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
20/08/2009 11:26 pm  
"mika" wrote:
Of course Will is rooted in the body, just like every other aspect of human existence

I don't think so. True Will is grounded in the Supernals and I suspect perception of the material plane and body changes after crossing the Abyss. If anything, the body would be grounded in True Will.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
20/08/2009 11:35 pm  

"If that is the case, then only way for you to practice non-attachment is to physically die. "

Halleluja - I give thee a fortune cookie!

Exactly!

Recent post to Erwin:

"Well that’s a typically boneheadily stupid Erwin response! Attachment is something the mind posesses. And yet you reject it as something ‘bad’! Attachment on that level is ‘just so’ – ‘just so’ with the ego. Why TF reject it? Just accept that it is so! You’re attached to the body, so you fight, eat, do the fucking maintenance. I’m not saying comdemn the attachment – just recognise it. It’s not the TW. You aren’t doing your true will if you’re stuffing your face and screwing your arse off – but so the fuck what? eh? You have a mind to deal with all – and it deals with it very well. The true will doesn’t get involved in making you sad about the maintenance. "


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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Joined: 16 years ago
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20/08/2009 11:42 pm  
"alrah" wrote:
Recent post to Erwin...

Alrah: You clearly have an issue with Erwin but, since he's not even participated in this thread, I require that you restrict such squabbles to his site.

Talking tough by proxy here isn't helpful.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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mika
 mika
(@mika)
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Posts: 363
20/08/2009 11:56 pm  
"tai" wrote:
"mika" wrote:
Of course Will is rooted in the body, just like every other aspect of human existence

I don't think so. True Will is grounded in the Supernals and I suspect perception of the material plane and body changes after crossing the Abyss. If anything, the body would be grounded in True Will.

I can agree with the statement that the body is grounded in Will. The point is, though, that if you have no body, you have no Will. I'm not talking about moving back up the tree and 'crossing the abyss' and experiencing a different perception of the material plane, I'm talking about being born to begin with. Manifestation of your Will is dependent upon your incarnation. Alrah seems to think this dependence is equivalent to"attachment", as in the kind of attachment that holds magicians back from progressing with our Work. Do you agree with that perspective?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
20/08/2009 11:56 pm  

I don't have an issue with Erwin. I'm not even talking tough here. I've never called him to account nor asked him to step outside with any connotations attached and don't have the slightest inclination to do so. I'm posting replies to him here, because as many other members will attest - Erwin closes conversation down on his blog when he feels he cannot play trumps. I post to Lashtal in the knowledge that Lashtal and it's membership will take an impartial stance and contribute their own views - as they have done above.

Most of the regulars here know and read his blog Paul - and he's a member here that knows I'm posting here and is free to respond here if he so wishes.

As the mod -this is your site however and you can restrict this conversation as you wish. Ban me - no hard feelings. 🙂


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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Joined: 16 years ago
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21/08/2009 12:25 am  
"alrah" wrote:
I'm posting replies to him here, because as many other members will attest - Erwin closes conversation down on his blog when he feels he cannot play trumps.

Further such posts will be deleted.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
21/08/2009 12:40 am  

Regarding your original question, violence does not arise within me, as violence is not an emotion or a thought, it is a description of a type of action. And yes, I have acted violently without attachment being present, for example whenever I practice kickboxing at the gym. Or when I whip and torture a willing victim. Or when I kill a mouse to feed my snake.

If there is no attachment in mind and emotion, then I would not classify those actions as physical violence. To deprive a mouse of life so that your snake may live - well you may have attachment to the snake, but someone's has to feed em. I didn't feel angry or feel my actions were violent in any way when I fed my snake, or been involved in the occaisional sexual excitement of someone that had was that way inclined or spared with a Wing Chun partner.

Regarding agape, according to my understanding of the concept, agape is by definition love without attachment.

It's nice to agree with you on such an essential concept to Thelema.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
21/08/2009 12:54 am  
"mika" wrote:
"tai" wrote:
"mika" wrote:
Of course Will is rooted in the body, just like every other aspect of human existence

I don't think so. True Will is grounded in the Supernals and I suspect perception of the material plane and body changes after crossing the Abyss. If anything, the body would be grounded in True Will.

I can agree with the statement that the body is grounded in Will. The point is, though, that if you have no body, you have no Will. I'm not talking about moving back up the tree and 'crossing the abyss' and experiencing a different perception of the material plane, I'm talking about being born to begin with. Manifestation of your Will is dependent upon your incarnation. Alrah seems to think this dependence is equivalent to"attachment", as in the kind of attachment that holds magicians back from progressing with our Work. Do you agree with that perspective?

Actually Mika - you've led me to this perception yourself.

Follow me if you will. You've said that it was simply necessary not to identify with attachment to know the TW. This would include not identifying with survival attachments, and all attachments to the body - but not rejecting them either. Just acknowledging that they are there while you are alive.

Now in that context - does it hold the magickian back from the work? Does it place any limit on it even?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
21/08/2009 1:23 am  
"mika" wrote:
I can agree with the statement that the body is grounded in Will. The point is, though, that if you have no body, you have no Will. I'm not talking about moving back up the tree and 'crossing the abyss' and experiencing a different perception of the material plane, I'm talking about being born to begin with. Manifestation of your Will is dependent upon your incarnation. Alrah seems to think this dependence is equivalent to"attachment", as in the kind of attachment that holds magicians back from progressing with our Work. Do you agree with that perspective?

I do not agree that one has no Will without a body. I agree manifestation or perception of Will is dependent on having a body. If you regard Will and body to be synonymous, this could be an expression of attachment and fear. That is, without a body you cease to exist.

Even if one has non-attachment toward the body, I tend to believe the shape and condition of it still expresses Will (I realize this is a controversial statement, but take it for what it is). Or better, their style. I know my body will die one day, but realization of its impermanence makes me want to keep it in shape, much like the attitude one might have toward a favourite car. This is not attachment, but rather maintaining the body in a certain style as the vehicle of my Will. Conversely one might claim to be have non-attachment toward the body as they put on weight and become more and more slovenly. Here non-attachment is a euphemism for denial and pretending not to care. I am inclined to believe, as a general principle, that the more a person gets in touch with their True Will, the more distinct and striking their characteristics - physically and otherwise - become. Whatever it is that makes you "you", that quality becomes even more accentuated over time. The gods are superhuman, larger than life, because that is their nature.

Alrah has a good point about limits. I think this is less about non-attachment and more about reaching a certain perception of the material plane, where fixed things start to become less substantial. This awareness can unleash a lot of magickal power.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
21/08/2009 3:47 am  
"alrah" wrote:
Can anyone, from their own experience, tell me of a time they felt violence arising within them without attachment being present?

Hessle is not included in my daily internet read, only a dozen or so sites are, but, Alrah, addressing your question on it's own merit, what living state could you possibly identify that would be completely devoid of attachment? I'm not talking about a fleeting glimpse, either. I mean a sustained functioning state of the sort that we were born to experience, as defined in terms necessary to the very nature of experience itself?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
21/08/2009 7:55 am  
"spike418" wrote:
I have several replies at hand but to be honest I feel like paraphrasing that old chestnut.

"Those that can do, those that can't blog"

Well, Hessle reminds me of what we call in schools here in America, 'Special Ed.' It is education in Thelema for the developmentally disabled. It is bare-bones Thelema for the functionally retarded. But, you know, all things considered, there may be a place for it in the grandest possible scheme of things imaginable. Yes, it is sad, but so is the human condition, if we are to be honest about it. To accept this scheme of things we must accept that human potential, which is, or was, absolutely limitless to begin with, has been so hopelessly stunted that the best that can be hoped for is a very abbreviated manifestation of that potential within a certain category of people. This would, if successful, perhaps salvage the uppermost category of 'slave' into the lowermost category of 'Man of Earth' Thelema, while at the same time inhibiting any further potential growth. Functionally retarded, but independent and free within carefully prescribed parameters.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
23/08/2009 8:04 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
"alrah" wrote:
Can anyone, from their own experience, tell me of a time they felt violence arising within them without attachment being present?

Hessle is not included in my daily internet read, only a dozen or so sites are, but, Alrah, addressing your question on it's own merit, what living state could you possibly identify that would be completely devoid of attachment? I'm not talking about a fleeting glimpse, either. I mean a sustained functioning state of the sort that we were born to experience, as defined in terms necessary to the very nature of experience itself?

I speculate that may be the state of a magus, Camlion (perhaps with one exception).


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mika
 mika
(@mika)
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Posts: 363
25/08/2009 12:51 am  
"alrah" wrote:
"mika" wrote:
Do you consider anything that is rooted in the body to be a result of or dependent on attachment? If that is the case, then only way for you to practice non-attachment is to physically die.

Halleluja - I give thee a fortune cookie!
Exactly!

Sadly, you missed my point. I was demonstrating why that was most certainly *not* the case. It is, indeed, possible to practice non-attachment without physically dying. Thus things that are rooted in the body are not necessarily the result of or dependent on attachment.

Tai - I agree with much of your last post, other than the religious statement (regarding the existence of Will without a body). Taking care of yourself is not necessarily a reflection of attachment to the body. And actually, I know more than one person whose primary message received from their 'Knowledge & Conversation' experience was to start exercising and eating healthier. The body is a temple, etc.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
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25/08/2009 2:02 pm  

Thank you for disagreeing with me Mika.

Question:

The practise of non attachment is usually accomplished in ordinary ego consciousness as and when attachment arises. Where there's no attachment arising then no practise of non-attachment is necessary. We are simply conscious and in the moment. Being. Awareness is still relative however. The mind still works to distinguish one sound from another, one colour from another, spacial awareness, time awareness, and awareness of form. The mind is still moving doing it's job in the background presenting feedback of our existance to the HGA. When the mind/body is perfectly still and all connection to the mind/body is lost (ie - in highest dyhana) then we become the HGA. There is no mind/body. After a time of being in this state if the continuity of existence of the body is in danger - then the body appears as a black unilluminated form receeding. All matter is black from the perspective of the HGA - unless it is within it's vehicles of mind and body. Then the world of form and colour, sound, space and time is very beautiful indeed. We tend to think of attachment as only applying to false ego consciousness and never ask if the true self can be attached to the world.

When Nuit cries out 'I love you, I love you, to me!' - is she not attached to the world? Can the artist not be attached to his creations? Is the HGA not attached to the temple it continually creates? It's mind, emotions and body?


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mika
 mika
(@mika)
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Posts: 363
25/08/2009 6:25 pm  
"alrah" wrote:
When the mind/body is perfectly still and all connection to the mind/body is lost (ie - in highest dyhana) then we become the HGA.

Then and only then? No.

It is not necessary to "[lose] all connection to the mind/body" to "become the HGA". You already are your HGA. The only difference between you, your ego, your HGA, or any other aspect of your self's existence is your perspective. Your essential self does not change, only your awareness of your self changes.

Some people may need to practice dhyana or some other meditative process in order to experience the perspective wherein they *seem to* "become the HGA", before attaining the understanding that they are, were and always will be the HGA. But not all people, and not always.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
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25/08/2009 7:30 pm  

Yes - you're correct Mika. Thanks for picking that one up. 🙂


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IAO131
(@iao131)
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Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 462
26/08/2009 7:56 pm  
"alrah" wrote:
Can anyone, from their own experience, tell me of a time they felt violence arising within them without attachment being present?

It matters waht you classify as an attachment. If a bacteria moving away from a hostile stimulus is an attachment to survival, and if a wolf fighting another for a piece of meat is an attachment to hunger, then there is no way violence could arise without attachment. If you take attachment to be a very human thing, a mental representation of the desire (rather than the instinct as in the previous examples) which one is attached to, then its obvious people get violent without attachment.

Or alternatively - can anyone tell me, from their own experience, of a time they felt agape with attachment also being present?

"Felt agape"? ... I also suspect some people would easily respond 'yes of course' without thinking too much.

Personally Im averse to this notion that 'violence is unnatural' - of course violence is natural, its really friendliness which is the exception in nature.

Aside: As for this whole 'will coming from the body' thing, Im not sure about the original argument but Crowley very specifically states that "each of us stars is to move on our true orbit, as marked out by the nature of our position, the law of our growth, the impulse of our past experiences." I dont see anything 'Supernal' or supernatural in this description in the least. The nature of our position is where our body is at the current circumstance, and our 'law of our growth' could easily be understood as our DNA (or, rather, DNA as a symbol of our law of growth) which is most certainly in/from the body. Hes essentially saying will arises from considering our circumstance, our natural tendencies, and our memories - the only argument against 'will being from the body' here is that it is more of a case of will arising from the interaction between body & environment, something I doubt whomever believes 'will being from the body' would disagree with...

IAO131


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
26/08/2009 8:24 pm  

That's...bench pressing the old brain cells IOA - but I asked for a response from your own experience; the whole mind/body experience and not about speculation, hypothesis, or how many angels you can get to dance the limbo on a pin.


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