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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/10/2006 2:59 pm  

Is it just me but i am really pissed of about the current o.t.o. No offense if some o.t.o. members is reading this,But my own humble opinion is that o.t.o. died with Crowley there is no evolution at all it is like an fan club for adult Crowley fans. look what i have a toe nail from the great beast and everyone goes like wow i must touch it.
I get more enlightment watching my dog sniff his own behind 🙄 .

When Crowley was in his early 20 he started his magical journey joined the golden dawn started dabbling with goetia and golden dawn rituals then he grew stiff bored of it, he even left his abramelin operation he thought o man this is boring there must be more to life than this so after an while he went to India studied their system of thought yoga Buddhism tantra he even crossed the border to china he wanted to find an tao master but in vain he did not find a tao master he studied all the world religion doctrines and the magic systems of the whole world even climbed the ladder of freemasonry degrees to become an 33°mason but not even that made his search for the truth stop he wanted more.

o.t.o. was only an tool for Crowley to promote his own ideas his values his experience of life. ideas that never settle for any dogmatic interpretations. Ideas that never stopped expanding for a search for the holy grail of enlightment that cant be found in anyone but yourself

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law that sentence may seem an easy one. But remember that it took Crowley years to settle for it after years of searching for the truth of life.

Liber cheth has one of the finest lines written on papper ever.

Thou hast health; slay thyself in the fervour of thine abandonment unto Our Lady. Let thy flesh hang loose upon thy bones, and thine eyes glare with thy quenchless lust unto the Infinite, with thy passion for the Unknown, for Her that is beyond Knowledge the accursed one.
Thou hast love; tear thy mother from thine heart, and spit in the face of thy father. Let thy foot trample the belly of thy wife, and let the babe at her breast be the prey of dogs and vultures

The above statements sums up the philosophy of life its up to you if you want to be slave for the o.t.o. or any other magical orders or if you want to tread the path of Crowley [the path of your own will)i choose the later.

Love is the law, love under will

.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/10/2006 6:33 am  

93
I'm not a member of the OTO, so I probably shouldn't write this comment, but I'll do it anyway (yes, what a rebel! I know).

From what I've seen and read, the OTO isn't dogmatic, is more like a group of people with similar interest that help others to understand thelema. It would be absurd to say "do what thou wilt" and at the same time to say "as thou wilt.... as long as I agree".

My only concern regarding the OTO is that I don't see a real and strong effort of promoting thelema beyond the limits of magical pratice, like there is no incursion towards philosophy or other environments like the studying of religions. That's my perception, but again, I'm not a member, so what do I know, right?

93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/10/2006 5:30 pm  

93

i agree totally

scientific illuminism stopped when crowley died
the only persons i can think of who really pushed the boundaries of thelema was jack parson even if he could have studied his homework a little bit more
and last and not least frater achad (charles stansfield jones) crowley own magical child,Those guys really lived for thelema and did many things to expand it. But where is the genius in o.t.o. today it seems that they have stopped evolving perhaps they are afraid of the Crowned and Conquering Child 😆

IF ANY OTO MEMBERS READS THIS
PLEASE MAKE THE ORDER BETTER
FOR OLD GRANDPA AL"S SAKE
TAKE OVER WHERE CROWLEY LEFT NOT WHERE HE BEGAN


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/10/2006 5:54 pm  

scientific illuminism stopped when crowley died

uh... 😯

the only characters i can think of who really pushed the boundaries of thelema was jack parson even if he could have studied his homework a little bit more
and last and not least frater achad (charles stansfield jones)

They were not characters. They were people who actually lived.

who treads the path outside the system of the OTO

Is this a question? and if so uh..... 😯

As above, so below
Kym


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/10/2006 6:01 pm  

I think to some extent your right, Magickal development does not necessarily reside in orders or institutions and you will always get your thrill seekers who make up a certain percentage anyway.
On the other hand, if the Magickal organisation, whatever that may be utilises a system that is proven to work then whats the harm?. I assume people genuinely do learn from the above in which case so be it. However NOTHING should be so rigid or dogmatic that it cannot expand and be expounded upon. Just because Crowley did something a particular way does not translate to me as I MUST do it that way or SAY it this way, I do appreciate though that it pays to be open minded and aware regardless. Let us try our hand at what we can, experience is good.

I think the biggest problem is when you get the intellectual, theoretical idiots who profess to know all and thus remain ignorant. Hillarious really. Magick and Thelema from my point of view has been and still is the hardest thing I have ever and will ever study and practice, FACT. Of course I cant speak for anybody else. The elitest attitude that one sometimes meets can, although comical be quite sad because it is essentially off putting to the genuine student. Perhaps Magickal groups are guilty of this, perhaps not.

To me the most sterling example of magick weaving its way amongst the thelemic community is right here on Lashtal, who needs a Magickal order ?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/10/2006 6:21 pm  

They were not characters. They were people who actually lived

im from sweden, here we can use the expression like characters to draw an pararell to an extraordinary person like that guy is [quite an character)

Is this a question? and if so uh..... 😯

yeah it was 😯

And what i mean with scientific illuminism is gnosis

beliefs are challenged by practical work

Scientific illuminism is hostile to the mystery, in that it examines and explains what appear to be mysterious in order to find the great mystery


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/10/2006 9:45 pm  

"Never too old to learn, always too old to be taught", right? Learn - yourself. I agree with you totally, real progress can only be made by constant search for the new perfection - individualistically. The collection of data and analysis are necessary, but the synthesis, the induction are the heart of creation, the big step on the Way.. And here the authority - and everything else! - is of a hindrance, not of help. Imho, Thelema is freedom, and the path of a Thelemite is as free as of a single Star.
Still.. Every organization as it grows has to standardize its procedures, and the bigger it gets, the more bureaucracy and less flexibility. This is just necessary to maintain the structure. From this point of view, especially considering the fact that OTO allows membership in any other organizations (right?:)), I think that there's no reason to be so worried: it's just the only way and yes, you have to sacrifice a little, but I don't think it restrains your personal development in any way. After all, we don't think that OTO will do everything for us, do we? 🙂
The Path is personal.

P.S. Just to be clear - I'm not in the Order, and the above is my.. umm.. impression of them.

GL,
Monk.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/10/2006 11:52 pm  

It seems to me that both Thelema, and Magick are universal, by definition open to ALL.

“Then the priest fell into a deep trance or swoon, & said unto the Queen of Heaven; Write unto us the ordeals; write unto us the rituals; write unto us the law!

But she said: the ordeals I write not: the rituals shall be half known and half concealed: the Law is for all.” AL I:33-34

“But
MAGICK
is for
ALL.

I have written this book to help the Banker, the Pugilist, the Biologist, the Poet, the Navvy, the Grocer, the Factory Girl, the Mathematician, the Stenographer, the Golfer, the Wife, the Consul --- and all the rest --- to fulfil themselves perfectly, each in his or her own proper function.” MTP

The potential disconnect, as I see it is in confusing the two, Thelema and Magick, or either with one or another successor to Crowley’s work, or organizations. In essence none of the OTO’s, AA’s, etc., ARE Thelema, or Magick. They are instead organizations that variously espouse the praxis of Magick, and the promulgation of Thelema. None of them can OWN Thelema, or Magick, or ration them from people by any means. What these groups offer is fellowship, and immersion in a peculiar Egregore, and what they possess, presumably then are proven Method(s).

“All these grades are indeed but convenient landmarks, not necessarily significant. A person who had attained them all might be immeasurably the inferior of one who had attained none of them; it is Spiritual Experience alone that counts in Result; the rest is but Method.” Liber XIII

It would seem to me that the Law of the Thelema calls us to do as the Masters have done, not necessarily as they, or their successors might seem to say we must.

En To Pan!
Two Crows


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
14/10/2006 1:01 am  

Quote: › Select ›‹ Expand
Is this a question? and if so uh.....
yeah it was

And what i mean with scientific illuminism is gnosis

Ok. Alrightttttttttt. I was just asking. Punctuation helps me with these things. 😆

Well, it's been my observation , esp. on this site, that quite a few people walk the path of Scientific Illuminism both within and without order affiliations. As any given order is comprised of it's various members, I dont think it's fair to make a blanket statement such as...

is that o.t.o. died with Crowley there is no evolution at all it is like an fan club for adult Crowley fans. look what i have a toe nail from the great beast and everyone goes like wow i must touch it.

I dont understand how you can think there has been no evolution at all since Crowley. Theres been Grant, Bertiaux and Nema to name a few. In "mainline" O.T.O many individuals have worked to bring Crowley and Thelema into an accessible format for the modern student...Lon Milo DuQuette springs to mind.

Whether one embraces a path steeped in Crowleys rituals or their own private practices is a matter of Will and personal inclination. But if one is truly a Thelemite either way or a combination of them will serve to deepen the Mystery you refer to.

93

Kym


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
14/10/2006 3:56 am  

Evolution isn't always to everyone's liking. Beliefs and practices of a group of people don't have to be in line with any other individual, no matter how much affinity you may have for the basis, or so called foundation of their organization. Start your own group. The thing about the O.T.O. is that it's established. No matter what, it'll take time for someone's new idea to take hold and accumulate membership and communal respect. All those with a differing viewpoint should be brave enough to be true to themselves, without worrying about not exactly fitting in.
-R.Pike-


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
14/10/2006 9:52 pm  
"adonia444" wrote:
I dont understand how you can think there has been no evolution at all since Crowley. Theres been Grant, Bertiaux and Nema to name a few. In "mainline" O.T.O many individuals have worked to bring Crowley and Thelema into an accessible format for the modern student...Lon Milo DuQuette springs to mind.

Whether one embraces a path steeped in Crowleys rituals or their own private practices is a matter of Will and personal inclination. But if one is truly a Thelemite either way or a combination of them will serve to deepen the Mystery you refer to.

93

Kym

93

it is obvious you dont know what i mean.
Lon milo duquette has done really well to to make crowley understandable and simplified to those who dont know much about crowley
like his work on goetia and his enochian sex magic and magic of thelema.
He have cleared away much misconceptions about crowley.But hey c`mon
those things he have cleared up is obvious meant for newbies with no knowledge whatsoever about crowley.I got friends who Didn't get the kabbalistic system of thought and expression and i said to them buy the chicken qabalah by lon milo that will surely make your brains tick and it really does... now my friends are reading mystical qabalah by dion fortune and 777 by crowley with ease and dont go huh.

And dont get started with nema then you can also in that case bring up don webb from the temple of set.
but i really admire nema when she writes about the astral temple in her book maat magic.

and dont bring up kenneth grant please do me an favour read one or two books he has written start with outer gateways and then nightside of eden
THEN YOU CAN MAKE COMMENTS ABOUT HIM.
Grant has mistaken Chokmah to be an extraterrestrial grey alien 😆

the only persons from the years 1970-2006 i can think of who has really put an T in thelema is robert anton wilson and in some less degree jan fries.

LOVE IS THE LAW,LOVE UNDER WILL


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
14/10/2006 10:37 pm  

Magnus

I totally disagree with you in regard to your comments on Kenneth Grant and his works...his work is 'very' important amongst serious occultists. In regard to, Lon Milo Duquette....I feel quite embarrassed to mention that I have three of his books and a pack of his tarot cards (bought many years ago!), I have his book on ceremonial magick/tarot and the enochian sex magick and tantra books (falcon press). In my opinion, the contents of these books were empty, having no imagination. Basically, it put me off Duquette for life....
Best Wishes

Charles


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
14/10/2006 10:56 pm  

hello charles 93 to you

Dont get me wrong kenneth grant is really good but sometimes when i read his books it seems is this really science fiction or fact. i would rather have seen kenneth grant as head of the OTO then HYMENAEUS GREEDY BREEZE,
The book i enjoy best and also the only one i like im afraid is Aleister Crowley & the Hidden God.
But for me kenneth grant will always be the occultist own Daeniken.

Love is the law,love under will


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4052
14/10/2006 11:05 pm  
"MAGNUS" wrote:
and dont bring up kenneth grant please do me an favour read one or two books he has written start with outer gateways and then nightside of eden
THEN YOU CAN MAKE COMMENTS ABOUT HIM.
Grant has mistaken Chokmah to be an extraterrestrial grey alien 😆

Congratulations, Magnus. I don't think I have come across such an ignorant, ill-considered remark on this site. What makes you think that adonai444 hasn't read the volumes you name and more besides?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
14/10/2006 11:53 pm  

sometimes when i read his books it seems is this really science fiction or fact.

Perhaps the ability to answer this question is best determined by those who "challenge belief with pratical work".

But lets take this from the top.

it is obvious you dont know what i mean.

You're right, I guess I dont. And i'm alright with that. Seriously.

Lon milo duquette has done really well to to make crowley understandable and simplified to those who dont know much about crowley
like his work on goetia and his enochian sex magic and magic of thelema.
He have cleared away much misconceptions about crowley.But hey c`mon
those things he have cleared up is obvious meant for newbies with no knowledge whatsoever about crowley.

And I believe this has already been addressed in my earlier post:

In "mainline" O.T.O many individuals have worked to bring Crowley and Thelema into an accessible format for the modern student...Lon Milo DuQuette springs to mind.

I knew it, there it is. I think mines more polite, dare I suggest, but nonetheless I think I tried to make a point of DuQuettes work being aimed at "newbies". And whats wrong with that? I own quite a few of Mr DeQuettes books, for the humor mostly at this point, but I sure would have LOVED them 20 years ago. They would have hastened my own work in thelemic magick towards the Typhonian Trilogies. 😉

And dont get started with nema then you can also in that case bring up don webb from the temple of set.

This is why I said ....to name a few. I didnt make a complete list, I just named a FEW.

I can see I put you off Magnus and for that I apologize. It was not my intention. I simply read your rather "misguided" post, in my opinion, and responded the best I could. I regret even bothering.

Good luck in your studies.

93
Kym


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
Owner and Editor Admin
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 5325
14/10/2006 11:54 pm  

That's quite an achievement, MAGNUS: You've managed to alienate pretty much your whole target audience in one thread. Often with what seem to me, to be frank, quite asinine remarks demonstrating your lack of understanding of several pertinent areas in the process.

"MAGNUS" wrote:
kenneth grant is really good but sometimes when i read his books it seems is this really science fiction or fact. i would rather have seen kenneth grant as head of the OTO then HYMENAEUS GREEDY BREEZE... kenneth grant will always be the occultist own däniken.

By all means continue submitting your thoughts to posterity, recognising as you do so, of course, that we're all making allowances for your obvious difficulties with English.

You might want to demonstrate a little more humility and a lot less arrogance, though, if you don't want to be excluded from future chats here.

Paul
@lashtal.com">webmaster@lashtal.com

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
14/10/2006 11:55 pm  

As a non-thelemic outsider, I'd say that it's a surprise to find thelemites who dislike the books by Grant. He's such an amazing writer, I mean, it's one of the very few living magicians who can write a book (instead of something that has less style than the operator's manual of the microwave oven -that horrible style that got so fashionable nowadays in almost every other new book about magick).

It's true that some of his books offer some sort of feeling of "fiction", but I'd say that it's because they are ALSO literature (something that most books on magick are not nowadays, which is sad... maybe we live in an age in which people wants to read user-friendly operator's manuals, not books)... but I'd say that they don't have more "fiction" that the books by Flamel, Francis Bacon or by Giordano Bruno (and whilst I don't feel that it's absurd to name Grant next to these other authos... how absurd it would get to name most of the contemporary occult writers next to these other names!).

I feel that he's disliked because of greedy political reasons (which is a silly way to judge his works, they go beyond any political agenda).


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 12:56 am  
"MAGNUS" wrote:
Is it just me but i am really pissed of about the current o.t.o. No offense if some o.t.o. members is reading this,But my own humble opinion is that o.t.o. died with Crowley there is no evolution at all it is like an fan club for adult Crowley fans.
.

Right. And what exactly did you accomplish in your life?
It is always lame to whine about the accomplishments of others
without being able to show some of your own.

There is nothing strange, anyway, about the process of decline it is a natural process. You might just as well whine that leaves are falling off the trees in fall.

As to the 'amazing' thelemites you are looking for: personally i am not impressed by any of the authors you mention and I kind of outgrew Crowley too. I find him a juvenile provocateur, a bad poet, and just too much of a flipflopping Libra pretending to be a Great Lion.

But then, that's just my opinion.

Martinus


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 1:10 am  
"kzwleh" wrote:
It's true that some of his books offer some sort of feeling of "fiction", but I'd say that it's because they are ALSO literature

I wouldn't say they qualify as literature in the proper sense of the word, or maybe as bad literature, depending how you define the word. I agree that Grant is better than the 'manual writers' you're talking about but there isn't much good literature to be found in the entire occult community. That's not strange, since really good poets will be born 1 in a million and the entire community just consists of maybe 10.000 people. The chance there are any great poets among them will be quite small, indeed. In the end its all just a numbers game, and its good that way.

Martinus


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 1:28 am  

Thelema is a current discovered by Therion. Potential difference of 93 (e)v. Alternating between polarities. The power source is what we seek, not the discoverer. Bicker, bicker - static on the line.
Ask yourself, should the current be stored, smoothed, tamed and stultified or allowed to flow unchecked. Channelled by our brothers in marvellous ways (viz. AOS, Aosicc Aiwass).
Outer Space ?? - definitely.
Now where's my copy of AL.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 1:43 am  
"JohnS" wrote:
Thelema is a current discovered by Therion.

As the story goes, the current discovered him, not he the current. And at any rate its impossible to know whether he was the first one. He surely was the first one to make such a fuss about it, that's a reasonable assumption. Personally I have always found it unimpressive that the revelation of AL was in Egypt. One can expect such currents to be strong there. It would have been much more impressive if Crowley penned down that stuff in Norway.

Martinus


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 3:42 am  

“All their life was regulated not by laws, statutes, or rules, but according to their free will and pleasure. They rose from bed when they pleased, and drank, ate, worked, and slept when the fancy seized them. Nobody woke them; nobody compelled them to either eat or to drink, or to do anything else whatsoever. So it was that Gargantua had established it. In their rules there was only one clause:

DO WHAT YOU WILL!

because people who are free, well-born, well-bred, and easy in honest company have a natural spur and instinct which drives them to virtuous deeds and deflects them from vice; and this they called honour. When these same men are depressed and enslaved by vile constraint and subjection, they use this noble quality which once impelled them freely towards virtue, to throw off and break this yoke of slavery. For we always strive after things forbidden and covet what is denied us.”

The Rules of the Abbey of Thélème, according to
"Gargantua and Pantagruel," François Rabelais 1542

En To Pan!
Two Crows


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 4:54 am  

I find it irrelevent whether Crowley was the 'first' to discover Thelema, or anything for that matter. Nothing is ever created or destroyed. All has ever been, and is already done.

Crowley 'did' however establish a full blown Holy Text of Thelema as only a true 'Poet' can do. Something tangible and useful, unlike all the bemoaning everyone spits constantly about Crowley and his Life. Kenneth Grant is more a confused writer than an occult one. Nema, I have met her, she is utterly unimpresive and her words emptier than most hippies and bums. Typhonians are more unimpressive to me than even the most absurd Crowleyite.

If anything, the O.T.O. is 'doing' more to promulgate the Law of Thelema than anyone on this forum can possibly muster with any amount of threads that all seem to have the same conclusion, mere entertainment and excitment through arguments that do nothing but circle the same pattern of leading not to understanding. If your not a member of the O.T.O. you have no basis on which to judge a thing. Its not a 'Secret' and 'Serious' Order for no reason. This is the only manner in which true initiation can be perpetuated.

And since I'm sure this thread will degenerate into everyone contending quote upon quote in the aim of being the most clever, here's one to suck on:

"At least one claim can be made; nothing has been invented, nothing suppressed, nothing altered and nothing 'yellowed up'. I believe that truth is not only stranger than fiction, but more interesting. And I have no motive for deception, because I don't give a damn for the whole human race-'you're nothing but a pack of cards.'"

-"The Confessions of Aleister Crowley"


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 5:05 am  
"JohnS" wrote:
Thelema is a current discovered by Therion. Potential difference of 93 (e)v. Alternating between polarities. The power source is what we seek, not the discoverer. Bicker, bicker - static on the line.
Ask yourself, should the current be stored, smoothed, tamed and stultified or allowed to flow unchecked. Channelled by our brothers in marvellous ways (viz. AOS, Aosicc Aiwass).
Outer Space ?? - definitely.
Now where's my copy of AL.

Rabelais said 'Do what thou wilt' in Pantagruel and Gargantua or whatever.

St Augistine, the FOURTH century, said in Tractatus VII, 8:
"Once for all, then, a short precept is given thee: Love, and do what thou wilt: whether thou hold thy peace, through love hold thy peace; whether thou cry out, through love cry out; whether thou correct, through love correct; whether thou spare, through love do thou spare: let the root of love be within, of this root can nothing spring but what is good."

For some reason, I doubt Crowley was the first discoverer of this current.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 8:11 am  
"KCh" wrote:
If your [sic] not a member of the O.T.O. you have no basis on which to judge a thing.

Okay…

"KCh" wrote:
Typhonians are more unimpressive to me than even the most absurd Crowleyite.

So, either you’re a member, or you have some difficulty taking your own advice…

En To Pan!
Two Crows


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 11:04 am  

"Crowley 'did' however establish a full blown Holy Text of Thelema as only a true 'Poet' can do."

I suppose its possible to see the text as some sort of experimental poetry, but Crowley's problem is that he was completely out of touch with the time spirit and developments of the craft. It's incrowd poetry. Poetry only a few 'initiates' could understand that are familiar with the symbols. Besides that, as poetry, its sort of dull. One reads Crowley's influences through all his works. Problem is these influences, even in that time, were obsolete for rolemodel purposes. He could have let himself be influenced by Majakovski or Lorca, as they were contemporaries, but instead he preffered to lean on the same old colonial buggers.

"Something tangible and useful, unlike all the bemoaning everyone spits constantly about Crowley and his Life. Kenneth Grant is more a confused writer than an occult one. Nema, I have met her, she is utterly unimpresive and her words emptier than most hippies and bums. Typhonians are more unimpressive to me than even the most absurd Crowleyite."

In order to be impressive one has to accomplish something. You speak in a derogate way about others, but on what basis? What have you accomplished, other then being a peon in some precreated magical system? Why should people start to read you instead of Grant or Nema?
What alternative do you have to offer?

"If anything, the O.T.O. is 'doing' more to promulgate the Law of Thelema than anyone on this forum can possibly muster with any amount of threads"

If the Crowley quote from confessions is true then why on earth would it be important to 'promulgate the Law of Thelema'? I do not understand this obsession.

"If your not a member of the O.T.O. you have no basis on which to judge a thing."

The same things is said by members of any club. Jehovah witnesses, Scientology, etc. It is of course untrue, one can very well make proper judgements about something without being a member of it. All it requires is a good link to the inner voice.

Martinus


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 11:17 am  

Don't think I said 'he was the first'.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 11:18 am  
"martinus" wrote:
"MAGNUS" wrote:
Is it just me but i am really pissed of about the current o.t.o. No offense if some o.t.o. members is reading this,But my own humble opinion is that o.t.o. died with Crowley there is no evolution at all it is like an fan club for adult Crowley fans.
.

Right. And what exactly did you accomplish in your life?
It is always lame to whine about the accomplishments of others
without being able to show some of your own.

There is nothing strange, anyway, about the process of decline it is a natural process. You might just as well whine that leaves are falling off the trees in fall.

As to the 'amazing' thelemites you are looking for: personally i am not impressed by any of the authors you mention and I kind of outgrew Crowley too. I find him a juvenile provocateur, a bad poet, and just too much of a flipflopping Libra pretending to be a Great Lion.

But then, that's just my opinion.

Martinus

First of all, you dont know me, second of all I'm not whining about others accomplishments.
But first of all i can start to answer the first verbal attack you made on me

I'm 20 years old got jewish-finnish ancestry. i speak five languages fluently french swedish english and a little bit finnish and last and not least hebrew which my grandmother taught me early on in my life .
and also I'm teaching yoga on sundays .And I'm currently studying physics at the university and where I'm currently working on an big essay on quantum physics.and by the way my family has many relations to the thelema current.My grandmother came from britain... moved to sweden in the forties and she was a close friend to frieda harris and kenneth hopkins
and my grandfather Ero sihvonen who by the way was the only finn in the agape lodge in the usa and who personally knew karl germer and wrote many letters to crowley and crowley to him.My father moved to sweden in the 1970 and there he meet my mother in an
theosophy class.

The end!!!!!! hoped that cleared away the fog a little bit
and makes your verbal attacks stop


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 11:33 am  

"First of all, you dont know me, second of all I'm not whining about others accomplishments."

Well, the truth is you are.

"But first of all i can start to answer the first verbal attack you made on me"

I don't see any verbal attack. I see a legitimate question: you challenge the accomplishments of others, so I ask to see the accomplishments that counterfeit it. Seeing that as a 'verbal attack' is lame and points to a juvenile mental attitude.

"I'm 20 years old got jewish-finnish ancestry. i speak five languages fluently french swedish english"

There are millions of people in the world that speak 5 languages. Its called having a language knob. I speak 3 myself, but I am currently learning the fourth one.

"And I'm currently studying physics at the university and where I'm currently working on an big essay on quantum physics."

See above. It's nothing special.

"and by the way my family has many relations to the thelema current."

That's nice, but kind of irrelevant. Or are you seriously suggesting that having a family is some sort of accomplishment?

Bottom line is that it's always easy to fling out at others - In your case it is probably a hormone thing, but at any rate my advice is create something extraordinary and don't waste your time complaining about how others *should* have done that in the past.

Martinus


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4052
15/10/2006 11:34 am  
"MAGNUS" wrote:
But first of all i can start to answer the first verbal attack you made on me.
"MAGNUS" wrote:
The end!!!!!! hoped that cleared away the fog a little bit and makes your verbal attacks stop

Magnus, these aren't verbal attacks. The tone might have been robust at times, but that was perhaps a reflection of your own robust style.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 12:26 pm  

To martinus

this thread is starting to get a little bit silly!!
you wanted to know what i have accomplished.And i wrote it down in an friendly way but not in an chauvinistic sense as you like to think.
And the thing about having a family is some sort of accomplishment? the answer is no and i did not mean it either i just wrote it down so you can know my background a little bit.
And I'm Not complaining about how others should have done in the past, if you have read what i have said in the above writings it is the other way around it is the present I'm writing about.

I Hope the moderator can close this thread because it seems that this is going to be an thread about who knows best and got the biggest ego.
And the worst thing is that we are fussing about things that does not belong in this thread and it`s my fault i know.
I should have named it (thelema today) were people can write about their on experience and what they think have been inproved after crowley death and also worsened both negative and positive views should have been more than welcome.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 12:39 pm  
"MAGNUS" wrote:
To martinus

this thread is starting to get a little bit silly!!
/quote]

Maybe, or maybe not. It is not forbidden to question the accomplishements of others, be it in past or present, but it's just unwise to do so without having any notorious accomplishments of ones own. If you had read my words carefully you'd have understood that I sort of agree with your comments about the OTO, it is just that I view the whole process as completely natural and worthy of making a fuss about. In the autumn leaves fall from the trees, so what?

In another sense, what I do find interesting is why always the same usual suspects get mentioned when people talk about 'development of thelema'.
For example, I think John Balance was one of the few real geniusses in thelema but no one ever mention him because he was (luckily) not affiliated with any movements. I personally value him higher than Crowley, he did more to me with a few songs than Crowley with 20 books.

I find the strange focus on a few persons rather sinister, but then again I am a person who believes everyone is a thelemite so in that light my position is understandable.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 1:01 pm  

i fully Agree with you martinus

john balance was truly an extraordinary guy, music wise and thelemic wise.
And the thing about that everyone is an thelemite that i also fully agree on that's what i made clear on the first page of this thread and also the reason i started this thread to make that thing clear.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 1:09 pm  
"MAGNUS" wrote:
i fully Agree with you martinus

Jack balance was truly an extraordinary guy, music wise and thelemic wise.

He was. He translated the 93 currents (and other ones) into music and
several of his works I regard as masterpieces of art. He is much, much more influential than any of the names mentioned in this thread and yet no one ever mentions him when it comes to things like thelema. I don't like Tibet or P.Orridge but Balance is one of my heroes. He took stuff to the frontline, and went beyond it.

Martinus


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
Owner and Editor Admin
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 5325
15/10/2006 2:16 pm  

Magnus,

Perhaps I can be forgiven for quoting my own post above:

"lashtal" wrote:
You might want to demonstrate a little more humility and a lot less arrogance, though, if you don't want to be excluded from future chats here.

We see your type of post here every couple of months. Someone reads a bit of Crowley, decides they have great truths to reveal to the academically-challenged they see here and then make fools of themselves before retiring hurt.

Your opinions may be of interest to some here, demonstrations of your ego are dull to the rest of us...

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
Owner and Editor Admin
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 5325
15/10/2006 2:22 pm  
"martinus" wrote:
I think John Balance was one of the few real geniusses in thelema but no one ever mention him because he was (luckily) not affiliated with any movements.

Nonsense.

Simple browsing of this site will show that he has been mentioned often - Google searches will show many more "mentions". His apparent lack of affiliations is an irrelevance to this thread.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 2:42 pm  
"lashtal" wrote:
Magnus,

Perhaps I can be forgiven for quoting my own post above:

"lashtal" wrote:
You might want to demonstrate a little more humility and a lot less arrogance, though, if you don't want to be excluded from future chats here.

We see your type of post here every couple of months. Someone reads a bit of Crowley, decides they have great truths to reveal to the academically-challenged they see here and then make fools of themselves before retiring hurt.

Your opinions may be of interest to some here, demonstrations of your ego are dull to the rest of us...

93

Please don´t misunderstand me.. I'm Not not that kind of a guy with napoleon complex far from it.And not that guy who reads a bit of crowley and then thinks he got the elixir of life and invents his own false crown of Daäth and then makes his illusions in to reality.

Please forgive if i have made some remarks that may seem to you to be misleading

best regards magnus

love is the law,love under will


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 2:50 pm  
"lashtal" wrote:
Nonsense.

Simple browsing of this site will show that he has been mentioned often -

Your site doesn't have a search engine button, so how would I know?
At any rate, google shows he is mentioned on this entire site 75 times. Kenneth grant is mentioned 2160 times. Even a mediocre artist like Rodney Orpheus is mentioned 216 times. So this just illustrates my point that Balance doesn't receive the credit he deserves within the thelemic community.

'Irrelevant to this thread' - what on earth are you talking about? This thread was about persons inportant to the development of thelema. What on earth makes you think that ther discussion about the sinister focus on a few so-called 'key figures' would somehow be out of line? Are you trying to become one of those 'Dimes-a-dozen' petty moderators that can't keep his nose out of other people's business? Is that how you define thelema for yourself?


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ianrons
(@ianrons)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 1126
15/10/2006 3:06 pm  

Your site doesn't have a search engine button, so how would I know?

FYI, there's a search button on the main menu at the top left, just below the banner. There's also a forum search which you'll see above the forum postings, and furthermore there's a search plugin for Firefox which you can install on the main search page or at the Mycroft site.

It seems clear to me that Paul's "irrelevance" comment concerned Jhonn's lack of obvious affiliations, which you said was the reason he was not mentioned much on this site. I can't understand why you think that if someone is a member of a Thelemic organisation then they'll get mentioned more.


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
Owner and Editor Admin
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 5325
15/10/2006 3:16 pm  

Martinus,

Oh dear, oh dear...

"martinus" wrote:
Your site doesn't have a search engine button, so how would I know?

By clicking on "Search LAShTAL.COM" in the Main Menu on every page?

"martinus" wrote:
At any rate, google shows he is mentioned on this entire site 75 times.

I'd say that 75 mentions equates to "often", wouldn't you?

"martinus" wrote:
'Irrelevant to this thread' - what on earth are you talking about? This thread was about persons inportant to the development of thelema.

The thread is about "Make your own truths do not settle for anything"... The rest of your comment is interpolation.

"martinus" wrote:
What on earth makes you think that ther discussion about the sinister focus on a few so-called 'key figures' would somehow be out of line?

"Sinister focus"?!

"martinus" wrote:
Are you trying to become one of those 'Dimes-a-dozen' petty moderators that can't keep his nose out of other people's business? Is that how you define thelema for yourself?

Charming...

Paul
@lashtal.com">webmaster@lashtal.com

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 3:23 pm  
"ianrons" wrote:
It seems clear to me that Paul's "irrelevance" comment concerned Jhonn's lack of obvious affiliations, which you said was the reason he was not mentioned much on this site. I can't understand why you think that if someone is a member of a Thelemic organisation then they'll get mentioned more.

Am i reading a different forum than you? I have never said anything even remotely resembling 'if someone is a member of a thelemic organisation they get mentioned more'. I can only conclude that you have some unsolved issues about this yourself and want to read stuff into my words I've never put there. I did say that Balance 'luckily' wasn't affiliated to any organisation. That is lucky, because it prevents the sort of 'corpse flaunting' that is common amongst people who are organized in groups. This has nothing whatsoever to do with 'getting mentioned' more - in a hundred years no one will even remember Grant, Duquette or the rest of the Bunch but I am sure Balance will still have an audience.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 3:30 pm  

"I'd say that 75 mentions equates to "often", wouldn't you?"

Not really. Much mediocre people get mentioned much more often.
It is all context that determines what one defines as 'often' and what not.

"The thread is about "Make your own truths do not settle for anything"... The rest of your comment is interpolation."

Well, I am certainly not settling for the petty attempt to control a conversation that does not belong to you. Isn't that ontopic in a lovely sort of way?

"Sinister focus"?!

Yeah. In the same way that the focus on dusty english colonial poets
within academic literature is sinister. But I am not delusional enough to think you'll ever understand that point.

Martinus


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
Owner and Editor Admin
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 5325
15/10/2006 3:33 pm  

Martinus,

Calm down! I wish you well, but you really do seem to be a little confused...

"martinus" wrote:
Am i reading a different forum than you? I have never said anything even remotely resembling 'if someone is a member of a thelemic organisation they get mentioned more'.

But you did say precisely that:

"martinus" wrote:
I think John Balance was one of the few real geniusses in thelema but no one ever mention him because he was (luckily) not affiliated with any movements.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 3:40 pm  
"lashtal" wrote:
But you did say precisely that:

"martinus" wrote:
I think John Balance was one of the few real geniusses in thelema but no one ever mention him because he was (luckily) not affiliated with any movements.

Right - mea culpa, i did say that. Well, it is sort of true, isn't it?
People that are grouped in organisations tend to praise people that
belong to those organisations. It is a way of saying 'look, our club produces superior artists'. For that reason alone I think most artist would prefer not to be affiliated with any movements. It is a bit of an exaggerated statement, but on the other hand he is never mentioned as a 'key figure' as for example Crowley or Grant or Bertiaux or whatnot - so if we are going to talk details my argument *is* cutting wood.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 3:49 pm  

'Irrelevant to this thread' - what on earth are you talking about? This thread was about persons inportant to the development of thelema.

The thread started out with our multi-lingual friend stating that "it is my humble opinion is that the O.T.O died with Crowley there is no evolution at all it is like a fan club for adult Crowley fans."

All I wished to do is point out as nicely as I could that there have IN FACT been some people, SOME being the operative word here, that have helped with this so called "lack of evolution." So basically I disagreed with his statement and gave a FEW examples.

I'm SORRY I didnt mention Balance. I made a point of saying TO NAME A FEW.

What on earth makes you think that ther discussion about the sinister focus on a few so-called 'key figures' would somehow be out of line?

Because you and a few others are being RUDE about it. I dont think anyone has a problem with discussing opposing opinions but it's kind of counter-productive to be malicious about it. I mean make your points and expect the counter. However, to say such rude and ignorant statements like some made by Magnus is not going set well with those of us who respect the aformentioned Magicians.

Are you trying to become one of those 'Dimes-a-dozen' petty moderators that can't keep his nose out of other people's business?

And again, we seem to have missed a key word here. "Moderator." That means it's his job to to be in everybodys business. He owns this site and what is said on here is his responsibility. If you need more than this i'm sure Paul will be happy to give you examples of some situations in which he's had to delete posts for inacurate information and thus avoiding any legal issues. This site has a reputation of delivering accurate information within copy right laws.
I find it quite interesting you've been a member of Lashtal for all of one day and you've already devoloped an "opinion" about Paul and how he handles HIS form. I hope you dont jump to these types of conclusions in all of your encounters and interests.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 3:50 pm  

This thread has gone from awful to almost laughable.It seems that everyone wants to convert the other to his own opinion,

We’ll Call It A Draw
everyone is wrong and everyone is right


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 3:59 pm  

"I'm SORRY I didnt mention Balance. I made a point of saying TO NAME A FEW. "

I have no idea why you feel that I was talking to you in person. I can't even recall reading your post in this thread.

"Because you and a few others are being RUDE about it."

Rude about what? I don't get it. What exactly did I say that one could seriously consider as being 'rude'?

"And again, we seem to have missed a key word here. "Moderator." That means it's his job to to be in everybodys business."

Unfortunately that is a very wide spread misconception about the meaning of the term 'Moderator' nowadays. A Moderators job is to deal with abuse issues, not to try direct conversations. In fact, coming to think of it in my opinion there is much more censorship nowadays then ever before and this is largely due to the idea that someone who own a website has somehow the right to do anything what he likes within it. Would you feel the same way about a newspaper? Think about that.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 4:00 pm  

Yep..
Am I right in thinking that the more people are on Lashtal forum, the less friendly it is?
It would be great to be wrong.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 4:20 pm  

The following written by Kch,

If anything, the O.T.O. is 'doing' more to promulgate the Law of Thelema than anyone on this forum can possibly muster with any amount of threads that all seem to have the same conclusion, mere entertainment and excitment through arguments that do nothing but circle the same pattern of leading not to understanding.

I agree sometimes people go round in circles but it is imperative that we can debate and at times be challenged in our beliefs and thus better educated in the long run.

If your not a member of the O.T.O. you have no basis on which to judge a thing. Its not a 'Secret' and 'Serious' Order for no reason. This is the only manner in which true initiation can be perpetuated.

How do you know the above is correct? and WHY is it the only TRUE initiation?. Thats a a really big statement to make wouldnt you say and in doing so your simply decrying the methods and inititations of a huge population of Occultists.

A general question to all: What makes one organistation / grouping more significant than another? Is the current not Omnipresent working through and with the right individual / individuals at the right time ?
It is surely absurd to consider it bound to anything.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/10/2006 4:23 pm  
"Mad_Monk" wrote:
Yep..
Am I right in thinking that the more people are on Lashtal forum, the less friendly it is?
It would be great to be wrong.

I think some people have a serious problem confusing the general with the particular. I am accused of making rude comments, but I fail to see which of my commentry anyone could consider 'rude'. I am expressing my own opinions. If I don't like certain artists I should be free to express that without being accused of being 'rude' - I have every right to like and dislike whatever I deem fit and if you don't agree with any of my comments feel free to discuss it. I do not consider any of my posts in this thread 'rude' and neither did I find any of magnums posts 'rude'. He is expressing a certain desillusionment with what he perceives a a lack of 'geniusses' after the death of Crowley. However, given the exceptionally rareness of such geniusses (it comes with the package) I find that sentiment, however palpable as it may be, to be rather something of a misnomer.


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