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 Anonymous
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03/06/2010 10:11 am  

As someone relatively new to Thelema, I want to ask: What are some of the political ramifications / philosophy of Thelema as a religious / magicak system?


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 Anonymous
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03/06/2010 12:47 pm  

Whatever you want them to be.


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 Anonymous
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03/06/2010 5:39 pm  

Neigh it is not so.
The politics of Thelema is clearly than the majority of people are mindless and do not know their TRUE WILL nor are they even capable to discern it nor have the capacity to stick to it if they did know it. Those masses must be assigned roles and purposes, that suit their nature and ability.

There are grades of attainment which some few can attain to, the marks of the major levels are Knowledge and Conversation of the HGA and the Crossing of the abyss.

Thelema proposes various levels of aristocratic responsibility to those of these attainments, where higher attainments place greater service to the Great Work and grant great responsibility over the masses. The MT for example has to take upon himself the suffering of the whole world and his work is towards the alleviation of that suffering on the large scale, by the administration of the Word or Law of the Magus.

Of course other groups with less abstract goals will organize practical means, grade or degree systems to implement these ideas, where the adepts will organize the masses according to their natural function and purpose, Such that each individual is guided towards fulfilling it's True WILL, even if that individual is to common and base to actualize that WILL on it's own.


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2380
03/06/2010 5:45 pm  

there was a (from my point of view only im sure) lengthy boring thread on politics and thelema already here:
http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-4280-highlight-politics.phtml
i hope you find it interesting 🙂
chris


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thamiel
(@thamiel)
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03/06/2010 6:09 pm  

The first few posts sum it up quite succinctly; from spiritual anarchism through to spiritual fascism...and everything in-between.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
03/06/2010 6:29 pm  
"name538" wrote:
Neigh it is not so.
The politics of Thelema is clearly than the majority of people are mindless and do not know their TRUE WILL nor are they even capable to discern it nor have the capacity to stick to it if they did know it. Those masses must be assigned roles and purposes, that suit their nature and ability.

There are grades of attainment which some few can attain to, the marks of the major levels are Knowledge and Conversation of the HGA and the Crossing of the abyss.

Thelema proposes various levels of aristocratic responsibility to those of these attainments, where higher attainments place greater service to the Great Work and grant great responsibility over the masses. The MT for example has to take upon himself the suffering of the whole world and his work is towards the alleviation of that suffering on the large scale, by the administration of the Word or Law of the Magus.

Of course other groups with less abstract goals will organize practical means, grade or degree systems to implement these ideas, where the adepts will organize the masses according to their natural function and purpose, Such that each individual is guided towards fulfilling it's True WILL, even if that individual is to common and base to actualize that WILL on it's own.

On the contrary, despite the obvious fact that "the average voter is a moron" [- Crowley], the existing democracies of the world are quite capable of facilitating the knowing and doing of true Will (Thelema) at optimum levels by their citizens, although a little tweaking here and there will be required to modify them to focus on that goal and on that goal alone, while retaining their existing democratic infrastructures.

There is no reason at all to tear down the existing democracies of the world, nor to wait around for them to crumble into dust on their own, so that we can all start from scratch in building some fanciful, unrealistic and totally impractical 'Thelemic utopia.'


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 Anonymous
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03/06/2010 6:38 pm  
"Noctifer" wrote:
Whatever you want them to be.

Noc, I can use examples relevant to you (just as I did with your "violinist,") to show you how political realities are not governed by "whatever you want them to be," any more than true Will is. But, I suspect that you are just being obstinate, as before. 🙂


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 Anonymous
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03/06/2010 7:17 pm  

An animal caught up in the rush of a stampeding mob, is in no position to do it's WILL. All it can do it get dragged along or crushed. Thus is democracy.

The Farmer is necessary to stop the mob from stampeding, then putting this horse to pasture, that one to the plow, the other to the saddle, This cow to the milk barn that one to the butcher.

Thus is the order of the farm maintained and each animal put in it's proper orbit, to fulfill it's WILL.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 3951
03/06/2010 7:37 pm  
"name538" wrote:
An animal caught up in the rush of a stampeding mob, is in no position to do it's WILL. All it can do it get dragged along or crushed. Thus is democracy.

The Farmer is necessary to stop the mob from stampeding, then putting this horse to pasture, that one to the plow, the other to the saddle, This cow to the milk barn that one to the butcher.

Thus is the order of the farm maintained and each animal put in it's proper orbit, to fulfill it's WILL.

Have you ever worked in farming, name538? Or is this just another example of those "fancy pictures" about which our young friend Los never tires of warning us?


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 Anonymous
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03/06/2010 7:57 pm  

it works the same in a factory, If you want the work done, you have to put each worker to a specif job, you have to ensure that each worker is fit to do the job, you have to have a foreman to organize the people and prevent disputes, deal with billing issues and schedules. A job for each and each in it's job.

If you have democracy, all the workers will join a mob and stop working, they will protest and complain about all manor of irrelevant things, and even those workers who want to work can not work because the union workers demand to strike, so the majority want a strike over something stupid, the few who want to work are forced out by the picket mob.

So it is best to not let your workers talk too much. "Let one not know well the other".


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OKontrair
(@okontrair)
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03/06/2010 8:29 pm  
"name538" wrote:
............... This cow to the milk barn that one to the butcher. ..................... each animal put in it's proper orbit, to fulfill it's WILL.

How very obliging!

OK


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 Anonymous
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03/06/2010 9:09 pm  

It seems to me that Thelema spells libertarian?


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faustian
(@faustian)
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03/06/2010 9:23 pm  

I seem to recall that Crowley was a Tory - i.e. a Republican. I wonder what he would have made of Sarah Palin?


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 Anonymous
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03/06/2010 9:30 pm  
"name538" wrote:
An animal caught up in the rush of a stampeding mob, is in no position to do it's WILL. All it can do it get dragged along or crushed. Thus is democracy.

The Farmer is necessary to stop the mob from stampeding, then putting this horse to pasture, that one to the plow, the other to the saddle, This cow to the milk barn that one to the butcher.

Thus is the order of the farm maintained and each animal put in it's proper orbit, to fulfill it's WILL.

You are thinking of anarchy, not the democracies of the world today, with the possible exception of when people riot briefly or hold a 'scheduled labor strike' in a display of protest and disappointment that socialism has failed once again. 😉


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 Anonymous
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03/06/2010 9:35 pm  

CCXX "Let my servants be few & secret: they shall rule the many & the known."
In that we are few it may suggest the majority are to be ruled. My interpretation of CCXX is rather not to be liberal but harsh on the masses, taking the best from this. A world government controlling all bank sectors I think would be ideal. I feel countries should be separate demilitarized nationalist infrastructures unified under one world governance. I also feel the mixing of cultures and races seems to give rise to disorder, needless conflict in economic sectors. This is my first post. Please feel free to be as critical as you like, it will help me to gain a better perspective of other views of Thelema.


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 Anonymous
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03/06/2010 9:37 pm  
"Urgeist" wrote:
It seems to me that Thelema spells libertarian?

I'd like to hear more about this spelling, Urgeist, if you will?


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 Anonymous
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Posts: 0
03/06/2010 9:47 pm  
"Warshaft" wrote:
CCXX "Let my servants be few & secret: they shall rule the many & the known."
In that we are few it may suggest the majority are to be ruled. My interpretation of CCXX is rather not to be liberal but harsh on the masses, taking the best from this. A world government controlling all bank sectors I think would be ideal. I feel countries should be separate demilitarized nationalist infrastructures unified under one world governance. I also feel the mixing of cultures and races seems to give rise to disorder, needless conflict in economic sectors. This is my first post. Please feel free to be as critical as you like, it will help me to gain a better perspective of other views of Thelema.

Except that the masses are usually conceived of not as "the known," but as the unknown, the faceless herd. Your interpretation is about as superficial as one can get, which I assume is the point, to demonstrate how dangerous it might be to mix Thelema with politics? You are very scary and I'm gonna forget all about it now. 🙄

Oh, and welcome first time poster on your first day.


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 Anonymous
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03/06/2010 11:50 pm  

Actually I agree with Warshaft to a point. Yes we need to break the world up into smaller nations, and we need to re-cerate the races or rather ethnical diversity where each small group is held together by strong emotional ties to a common set of beliefs, practices and cultures under an enlightened leader who has established a link to the "spiritual ideal" which is to say has unlocked the genes that are the human equivalent of the Alpha Ape.

The smaller nationalist groups would in a sense be under the aegis of third order, which would rule subtly and without being known. A cryptocracy, but certainly not by controlling banks, as the economy is the most base of interests. Rather a move away from the value and interest in money by the promotion of arts and poetry, philosophy and being content in one's own station must be promoted in place of the rabid pursuit of money and a false ladder of advancement to so called superior jobs, which only promote more misery in measure with more money.


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 1:10 am  
"name538" wrote:
Rather a move away from the value and interest in money by the promotion of arts and poetry, philosophy and being content in one's own station must be promoted in place of the rabid pursuit of money and a false ladder of advancement to so called superior jobs, which only promote more misery in measure with more money.

Why not each individual determining for themselves what material resources are required to do his or her true Will for as long as they plan to continue doing it (living) and then acquiring that amount with the understanding that both too little and too much would equally be distractions from doing that true Will? Too voluntary for you, right, name538?


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 1:32 am  

Ok, First of all that would be great, in theory.
But most people are idiots and out of touch with reality and with themselves, and a great many of those are biologically incapable of every coming to terms with their true Will, they are fodder to be used by the adepts who do know reality. (The slaves shall serve). We need to just make sure that we use them according to their purpose and natural properties, i.e. we don't yoke chickens to the plow, we don't chop down trees with herrings.

Second, The nature of each individual WILL does not just well up from with in, it is a calculated orbit that arises from a harmonious exchange with the external environment, the most important aspect of the human external environment is the social environment, it's laws, customs, rules, beliefs and practices which one's place is found in relation to.

A single leggo block has no purpose or plan set out for it. It only manifests a purpose and role in relation to those other blocks that have been intentionally connected to it in such a way as to achieve the higher design.

Thus the Adepts organizes each individual according to it's nature with all the other individuals they have available to achieve the higher synthesis of each so that each compliments the other's potential and thus a more efficient whole.

Each individual then is only charged with being Authentic to their own WILL and the higher adepts whose WILL is to serve and redeem humanity as a whole, use what they gain in initiation to build efficient political, social and religious systems than work with the Individual WILL in order to forms those higher synthesis, in analogy as to how Atoms from Molecules, under the guidance of the Chemist.

The degree to which the masses tend to actually stick to their TRUE WILL the less pressure is necessary to apply external discipline. To that end the ideal goal (The calculus limit) to which we seek to attain is that the higher adepts need not apply any pressure, since the self discipline of the individual will be strong enough to hold each in his place.

But the masses are easily distracted from their WILL and easily enticed away from their own WILL. Our society as it is now, with hollywood, advertisements, political correct nonsense, unions, slave religions, all this crap has only one goal to agitate the masses and make them feel inadequate in their own Natural roles until they leave their own work and seek to do something else, that only leads to their own disappointment and interferes in the WILLs of others.


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 2:15 am  
"name538" wrote:
Ok, First of all that would be great, in theory.
But most people are idiots and out of touch with reality and with themselves, and a great many of those are biologically incapable of every coming to terms with their true Will, they are fodder to be used by the adepts who do know reality. (The slaves shall serve). We need to just make sure that we use them according to their purpose and natural properties, i.e. we don't yoke chickens to the plow, we don't chop down trees with herrings.

People are indoctrinated with artificial life-goals from childhood. 'He who accumulates the most wealth attains to the greatest happiness.' 'He who lives the longest wins, regardless of quality of life.' Etc, etc, etc. This is all a matter of education. Take away the artificial life-goals and we make room for the natural ones, the true Will.

The slaves must serve voluntarily, by rejecting the option of Liberty when it is offered, as per Liber AL. Slave management then becomes another topic, but qualification for that unfortunate category is not to be assumed in advance of Liberty being rejected, based only on your or anyone else's anticipation of it.

"name538" wrote:
Second, The nature of each individual WILL does not just well up from with in, it is a calculated orbit that arises from a harmonious exchange with the external environment, the most important aspect of the human external environment is the social environment, it's laws, customs, rules, beliefs and practices which one's place is found in relation to.

True Will is primary, environment is secondary. You are trying to equalize these or, worse, trying to make environment primary, but this contradicts the core principle of Thelema: "Do what thou wilt."

"name538" wrote:
A single leggo block has no purpose or plan set out for it. It only manifests a purpose and role in relation to those other blocks that have been intentionally connected to it in such a way as to achieve the higher design.

Humans are not Leggo blocks, each has it's true Will to embrace or reject, voluntarily.

"name538" wrote:
Thus the Adepts organizes each individual according to it's nature with all the other individuals they have available to achieve the higher synthesis of each so that each compliments the other's potential and thus a more efficient whole.

Are you an "Adept," name538?

"name538" wrote:
Each individual then is only charged with being Authentic to their own WILL and the higher adepts whose WILL is to serve and redeem humanity as a whole, use what they gain in initiation to build efficient political, social and religious systems than work with the Individual WILL in order to forms those higher synthesis, in analogy as to how Atoms from Molecules, under the guidance of the Chemist.

The operative word must be VOLUNTARY.

"name538" wrote:
The degree to which the masses tend to actually stick to their TRUE WILL the less pressure is necessary to apply external discipline. To that end the ideal goal (The calculus limit) to which we seek to attain is that the higher adepts need not apply any pressure, since the self discipline of the individual will be strong enough to hold each in his place.

You talk about something being "great in theory." This silly notion is corruption just waiting to happen.

"name538" wrote:
But the masses are easily distracted from their WILL and easily enticed away from their own WILL. Our society as it is now, with hollywood, advertisements, political correct nonsense, unions, slave religions, all this crap has only one goal to agitate the masses and make them feel inadequate in their own Natural roles until they leave their own work and seek to do something else, that only leads to their own disappointment and interferes in the WILLs of others.

As I said above, it is all a matter of indoctrination from childhood and the solution is proper education.


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sonofthestar
(@sonofthestar)
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04/06/2010 2:23 am  

93!

“But the masses are easily distracted from their WILL and easily enticed away from their own WILL. Our society as it is now, with hollywood, advertisements, political correct nonsense, unions, slave religions, all this crap has only one goal to agitate the masses and make them feel inadequate in their own Natural roles until they leave their own work and seek to do something else, that only leads to their own disappointment and interferes in the WILLs of others.”

Hello, name538

I am pretty much in agreement with the general “gist” of this, but elaboration is necessary.

The “Masses” can basically be divided into two groups:
Group 1 being the overall population, citizens, of any particular country….
quite content to live their lives unmolested. To earn a decent living through work,
but not as “wage slaves” …..though they most often are just that.
They usually accept the religion of the majority of their Countrymen, but are not fanatical about it. Intelligence varies widely.

Then we have what I would call the prime servers and tools of the slave god religions.
These seek to manipulate, influence, and control the more “simple folk”.
It is this last group, that must be addressed in the “eventual” heavy handed way.
The crux of the War, is to circumvent their influence over the masses of humankind in general;
that the masses of “humble folk” or “just wanting to live their lives folk” or “those minding their own business folk”---are free to develop as they will, if they will---Under No Coercion.
It is from this mass--- that what appears to be the common Beggar, might just as easily be a King.
This is the group selected as it were, for guidance--and careful tending, without having
“their business minded” or their “lives imposed upon”.
Their lives can be made much easier in many ways necessary for them to commence to become,
Awakened---once the baleful influence and control of those who would tyrannize over mind, body and spirit are broken.
There are of course “exceptions” to what I have tried to express in perhaps too simple or
general a concept; nevertheless the overall idea is adequate for a start.
Though any full conclusions of the basic premise must go far, far, deeper---from all possible angles.e

93! 93! 93!


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 2:29 am  

ok, really all there is, is environment.

Self is an illusion, really all there is, is intert matter swirling about, atoms bumping about all under the control of physical forces.

a hurricane seems to arise from the Eye, (The self of the hurricane) but actually the hurricane is totally produced from outside forces. The hurricane does as a discrete entity have some semblance of autonomy, we talk about it as separate from the general weather conditions or the atmosphere as a whole. But in truth it is not autonomous it derives it's behavior directly from the atmosphere as a whole.

Thus there is no self, no discrete entities at all, only the WHOLE of all. That is the environment, and the WILL of the particular is a concentration of the external WILL of the ALL.


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 2:30 am  

And here comes the society of Thelemite Ubermensch to save the sheeple from their own averageness and tell them what to think for them. Yay. Give those trogs what for!


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 2:36 am  

No we want the masses to be average and to serve the higher order, each in his proper station.

We want to get rid of the idea that what you are is not good enough.

The feudal peasant did not dream of being a lord or a princess, just as they did not dream of being birds or fish. Nobility was a whole different type of thing, not even the same species as a peasant. Thus the peasant was content to work the field and felt no resentment against the nobility.

in our society they make you feel inadequate and demand that anyone can "make it", to some ideal that is not appropriate to their station in life.

Ideally, Each individual will find their proper station and no one will want to be other than what they are, even the sewer worker has no resentment of his station nor aspiration to some other ideal role.


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 2:56 am  

what man doesnt dream of being a king, a bird or a fish?
Also your first two statements are in conflict. If we are ever going to evolve, then we all of us need to dream big and strive for more than the simple and average lot in life. This whole idea of this elitist society of Thelemites being served by trogs is simply a pathetic cry of the same old status quo nonsense that got us into this whole mess in the frst place. And who exactly will be in charge of deciding each individuals lot in life?
Thelema is not something only reserved for some elitist group of adepts. the gnosis of ones true will is available to anyone who sets out to find it. Every man and every woman is a star.


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 3:07 am  

Here are some quotes from Crowley.

"It is necessary for the development of freedom itself to have an
organization; and every organization must have a highly centralized
control. In order to obtain freedom to do your will, it is necessary
to submit voluntarily to discipline and organization. Evolution
implies structuralization. The power of man is greater than the power
of the amoeba, because he has specialized the function of our
protoplasm of which he is composed. In order to do the one thing which
you will truly you must therefore renounce all those other things
which may tempt you to swerve from the one purpose of your sojourn
amongst us. (Name note: Renounce all other things includes aspirations to be king)

In the body every cell is subordinated to the general physiological
control, and we who will that control do not ask whether each
individual unit of that structure be consciously happy. Be we do care
that each shall fulfill its function, and the failure of even a few
cells, or their revolt, may involve the death of the whole organism.
Yet even here the complaint of a few, which we call pain, is a warning
of general danger. Many cells fulfil their destiny by swift death, and
this being their function, they in no wise resent it. Should
haemoglobin resist the attack of oxygen, the body would perish, and
the haemoglobin would not thereby save itself. For every individual in
the State must be perfect in his own function, with contentment,
respecting his own task as necessary and holy, not envious of
another's. For so only mayst thou built up a free State, whose
directing will shall be singly directed to the welfare of all. Say not
that in this argument I have set limits to individual freedom. For
each man in this State which I propose is fulfilling his own True Will
by his eager acquiescence in the order necessary to the welfare of
all, and therefore of himself also."

So you see, it may well be the TRUE WILL of an individual to suffer a "swift death" and to do so without resentment in that this death fulfills his place and role in the higher system, an a unit of society.


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 3:19 am  

Unrealistic and impractical.


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 3:33 am  

Well that is what THELEMA is.
Any deviation from this view, (That the individual is a part of a higher order, and has no right but to discover, learn and limit oneself to that one station in life which is his TRUE WILL or natural orbit. As each cell in the body has a role, and each brick in the wall, each ant in the colony) is not Thelema.


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 3:48 am  

Well you can go on dancing as ants before a mountain, I'll crown myself king, soar to the heights and swim to the depths.

Your view of Thelema is a childish, out moded way of thinking that is ill representative of the Aeon of the Crowned and Conquering Child. Your view comes of as rather...uninitiated.


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 3:51 am  

"The members of the Fifth Degree are responsible for all that concerns the Social welfare of the Order. [...] In this degree the Most Wise Sovereign of each chapter will appoint a committee of four persons, two men and two women, to arrange for all social gatherings, banquets, dances, the performance of plays, and similar pleasures. They will also endeavour to promote harmony among the Brethren in all possible ways, and to compose any disputes by tact and friendliness without formal appeal being made to any more authoritative tribunal." (CXCIV)

Now, sounds to me like we have a situation where the higher degrees govern the lower degrees. They don't interfere in the personal WILL and business as it were, instead they organize events and help provide roles for each individual within those events. They put each Will in it's place where it best fits, in order to organize social interaction.

In a community, rather than just plays and such, they might organize work schedules and assign community tasks to the right person for the job, etc.

While the more political aspects are the performed by the higher degrees, beyond the fifth. For example the Grand Inspectors are chosen from the VIIth degree, and the inner sanctuary is of the IXth degree, etc.

That is not a democracy, nor is it an everyone is equal and the same, nor is it the notion than no one is to be guided by authority other than one's own inner voice. etc.


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 3:54 am  

...according to you, at this moment. You'll change your mind, so don't get too hung up on it right now.

What I meant by "whatever you want it to be" was not anarchy, but Thelema.

The political ramifications of Thelema as a political system = Thelema = Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

This, to me, is not anarchy, it's the exact opposite of anarchy: anarchy is the total absence of governmental administration.

Thelema on the contrary, is the immediate reality of the absolute, omnipresent "government" of each sovereign individual, as both church and state, both unto themselves and eachother. Anarchy is the unenlightened, aimless version of this idea.

Interestingly, re. anarchy, Alan Moore has said: "I believe that all other political states are in fact variations or outgrowths of a basic state of anarchy; after all, when you mention the idea of anarchy to most people they will tell you what a bad idea it is because the biggest gang would just take over. Which is pretty much how I see contemporary society. We live in a badly developed anarchist situation in which the biggest gang has taken over and have declared that it is not an anarchist situation- that it is a capitalist or a communist situation. But I tend to think that anarchy is the most natural form of politics for a human being to actually practice."


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 3:57 am  
"name538" wrote:
Well that is what THELEMA is.
Any deviation from this view, (That the individual is a part of a higher order, and has no right but to discover, learn and limit oneself to that one station in life which is his TRUE WILL or natural orbit. As each cell in the body has a role, and each brick in the wall, each ant in the colony) is not Thelema.

I agree as to what Thelema is, but this need not and, indeed, cannot be mandated. It won't work that way in the real world. It can, however, be voluntarily opted into or out of, and the rest then sorts itself out quite nicely, IMO. Each individual is either in (doing their true Will) or they're out, "to abide in this bliss or no; it is no odds."


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 4:02 am  

name538, do you know any V* OTO members, personally?


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 4:25 am  

Well, I agree that it is voluntary, that's the whole point.
I am at this point discussing O.T.O. based community, since the O.T.O. is the only Thelemic order anywhere large enough to start such a project also the structure of the Order is already designed for intentional communities.

But the O.T.O. does not send a swat team into your home to drag you off and force you to join the order against your WILL, so it is of course voluntary that you submit to the organizational structure.

As far as wide scale politics. Thelema is about removing restrictions that prevent individual from performing their function to which they have dedicated their lives. So influencing politics to this end, would be a Thelemic policy.
My best example is, remove regulations on doctors, that prevent them from prescribing what they know is best, and not have the drug companies pushing new drugs on them, removing expensive insurance by tort reform.

Also things like Abortion, you can allow abortion but discourage it by promoting a stronger economy (Kill the FED) in which child birth is not the ruin of one's economic plans for life. Things like this.


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 5:09 am  

oh wow man


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thamiel
(@thamiel)
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Posts: 41
04/06/2010 5:23 am  

Most of the posts up to this point sum it up quite succinctly; political Thelema ranges from spiritual anarchism through to spiritual fascism...and everything in-between


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 7:00 am  
"name538" wrote:
An animal caught up in the rush of a stampeding mob, is in no position to do it's WILL. All it can do it get dragged along or crushed. Thus is democracy. .

LOL


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 8:53 am  

Crowley has lined out pretty well that Thelema is not democratic or anarchistic, and that it is most definitely based on Aristocracy. Since Crowley cerated Thelema, I think it only sensible to what he says about it as correct.


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 9:11 am  

Oh god, a True Believer. How painful.

"name538" wrote:
Crowley has lined out pretty well that Thelema is not democratic or anarchistic, and that it is most definitely based on Aristocracy.

This is exactly my position as well. I guess I'm with Crowley here. Except my definition of aristocracy has everyone at the top.

"name538" wrote:
Since Crowley cerated Thelema,

You're wrong in saying that Crowley created Thelema (by his own account, he didn't, and in my opinion, he didn't - so I gues I'll agree with both myself and him on this one).

I think it only sensible to what he says about it as correct.

You're also wrong in saying that whatever he says about it is correct, for two reasons:

First, he contradicts himself and changes his mind about lots of things over the course of time. This means that he was at one time or another incorrect in saying something about it. Therefore, your statement is impossible to be true in any imaginable way.

Secondly, you've missed the point of Thelema, which is do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

So given that what Crowley said about it is a) just his view, b) contradictory, c) incomplete, d) unproven to be what he says it is, I guess I'll suspend handing over my volition in terms of perspective on what Thelema "is" to the deceased, and be true to my nature. It's the Thelemic thing to do.


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 9:25 am  

if some one coins a word, term or practice.

it is not a matter of your WILL what that word, term or practice means. You simply do not get to decide.

If I decide invent the term durblier and I define it as a red turtle, it's not up to your to claim that durbliers are actually yellow or are lizards not turtles, because I already defined that word.

Crowley has already defined what Thelema is, and what it means.
He changed his mind about several things but not the meaning of Thelema.
Also he mostly didn't change his mind, he went from undecided to sticking with a specific position, one way or the other.

Oh and I didn't just invent the word durbliers there, it was told to me by Quizzlor my imaginary friend the wizard bunny rabbit that lived in Hyrule with princess zelda, he told it to be telepathically across time.


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 9:28 am  
"Camlion" wrote:
"Urgeist" wrote:
It seems to me that Thelema spells libertarian?

I'd like to hear more about this spelling, Urgeist, if you will?

Do what though will shall be the whole of the law. Absolute freedom = minimal or ideally no government. (Not to say that I'm a libertarian, or a thelemite for that matter).


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 9:29 am  

.


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 9:29 am  

Actually, no, he did change and contradict himself all over the place. One day, when you start to read his books, you'll realise it.

He didn't invent the word "Thelema".


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 9:33 am  

And, name538, actually, I certainly do get to decide what things mean to me and what they don't; what I think about them, how much of them I buy into, and so on. Nothing, but nothing, is exempt from that. That's Thelema. To me.


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 9:33 am  

Absolute liberty does not mean no government, it means that you have a government that makes sure you don't stray from your true purpose and plan, by keeping you from being lured away from your true purpose. Liberty is not doing any random thing you want, liberty is doing that one thing which you are designated by Nature to do as an individual, and not being forced to do something which you are not meant to be doing.

Thus a government that helps keep each individual in the proper place, without pushing them into things they will resent, is the highest liberty.


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 9:34 am  

Liberty is being free to do as you like. That is your proper place, and requires no government, just facilitation.


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 9:57 am  

If you remove the set orbit notion, with the government there to provide discipline to those who do not have the self discipline to keep to their own orbit alone. Then you have no purpose and there is no absolute reason to do X rather than Y, all is meaningless dust in the cosmos. There is no reason to live rather than die, to seek to do any thing rather than any other thing.

In this WILLless state in which one has no preference at all, one can not act at all. There is no means to discern what action to do and what not to do. At best you can flail about aimlessly like a drowning victim. Now, If you have a loose grip on your WILL, you have focus, you have an idea what you want to achieve by your actions. But, you may not be fully focused, you may not know enough to discern the best possible means to achieve your WILL. Magick is the art and science of discerning the best possible means to achieve you WILL. Part of discerning the best means, is to know your role in an organized social environment. You can find crude means to approximate your WILL living say alone on a desert island, dealing with the harsh elements. Yet by finding yourself in a society you can find that if you co-operate and do your particular role according to your WILL, all the roles work together so that your WILL is more effectively fulfilled and your actions contribute to other's WILLs. (You can't do just whatever you want, because if you do other than your proper function, you will not get the most out of society and others will not get the most out of your activity).

Thus, you have more different things you can do alone on the island, but you are more free when you work in society, since though you can to more on the island you can't fulfill your WILL as effectively as in the civil society.
The role of the government, is to organize the roles in society so that everyone's WILL is fulfilled more effectively by their service to society, than if they lived alone. They have a duty to ensure that they their rule is not a tyranny that exploits the people in society, restricting their WILL rather than Facilitating it, thus the ruling class must be able to discern the nature of each unit of society and put each to a proper use, not forcing anyone into a rule that is not proper to them.

Without such leadership, even people who do their True Will, still do not know fit together perfectly and will step on eachother's toes more often than working together as an integrated whole.


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 10:07 am  

Look, with all possible respect, you seem to be unaware that "will" is simply what you want. You're talking about it like it's a unicorn.


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 10:30 am  

"The concept postulates that each individual has a unique and incommensurable inherent nature (which is identical to their "destiny") that determines their proper course in life, that is the mode of action that unites their purest personal will with the postulated course that preexists for them in the universe." (Thelemapedia)

Will is not what you want.

The captain has a set course to follow, the True WILL is that set course not the various side tracks the captain may want to wander off to. The True WILL also includes corrections for the weather and waves to stay on the course than existed before the birth of the Captain, and the Captains TRUE WILL is his personal inner most drive to stay on course. His Wants are to get blown off course and to seek treasures and follow the siren songs.


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