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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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04/06/2010 10:50 am  

I just checked my dictionary (COED, 1955). The first meaning of "will" given is "Desire". Therefore, will is, actually, what you want. It's certainly not what you don't want - if it is, it's not will.

The second meaning is: "faculty by which person decides or conceives himself as deciding upon and initiating action".

Third (note, the third): " (Also ~power) control exercised by deliberate purpose over impulse, self-control".

Fourth: "deliberate or fixed intention".

Then, as entirely ancilliary to these:

"Energy of intention, power of effecting one's intentions or dominating other persons"

"contents of the ~, what is desired or ordained by person"

"Arbitrary discretion"

"Disposition towards others, wishing of good or ill"

""Directions written in legal form for disposition to be made of person's property and minor children after his death.

Then,

"Have as contents of one's will, intend unconditionally"

"Instigate or impel or compel by exercise of will-power"

"Bequeath by will".

Like I said, will is what you want.


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 11:18 am  

Crowley's WILL is much more akin to Schopenhauer's notion of WILL, which is not the personal wants but rather the "Thing-in-itself" of Kant as expressed in a dynamic sense. Sort of a current which is hidden behind the manifest phenomena.

Crowley's WILL is something like this, only expressed as each individual being a tributary of that underlying current.
Where as Schopenhauer claimed pessimistically that WILL can never be fulfilled and we are helplessly dragged along in the course of WILL, against our wishes. Crowley claims that we can unite with that WILL so than the Deterministic current of WILL harmonizes to our various wants and wishes. The entire notion of a self that with wants and wishes of it's own, is destroyed in the abyss, so that the MT, IS the WILL itself, and he has no desires of his own.


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 12:42 pm  
"Noctifer" wrote:
I just checked my dictionary (COED, 1955). The first meaning of "will" given is "Desire". Therefore, will is, actually, what you want. It's certainly not what you don't want - if it is, it's not will.

In order to not want something, you have to want it first. In order to want something, you must first become aware of it. The awareness opens up the Abyss. And so the circle turns again, catching, not releasing the Storm. It is a play on words, a dance of shadow and light.

Images and words capture the knowledge but are not the knowledge. It is the awareness that you seek. Rashith ha Gilgalim. Words fail in the Abyss.

93


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 12:48 pm  

Where is the self in an interference pattern? - holographic koan


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 12:51 pm  

If we all go for the hot chick, nobody gets laid. Don't hate me because I'm beautiful. 😉


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 Anonymous
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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 5:29 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
name538, do you know any V* OTO members, personally?
"name538" wrote:
I am at this point discussing O.T.O. based community, since the O.T.O. is the only Thelemic order anywhere large enough to start such a project also the structure of the Order is already designed for intentional communities.

But the O.T.O. does not send a swat team into your home to drag you off and force you to join the order against your WILL, so it is of course voluntary that you submit to the organizational structure.

That does not really answer my question, which was again about your actual personal experience with some of the things and people that you write about, but I think that the OTO is a fascinating ongoing small-scale experiment where some of these ideas might actually find a practical place to be tested (and they have already), if they will admit you, and their admission standards are quite generous at the entry level.

"name538" wrote:
As far as wide scale politics. Thelema is about removing restrictions that prevent individual from performing their function to which they have dedicated their lives. So influencing politics to this end, would be a Thelemic policy.

This is the first time that you have actually flirted with an idea that might really be helpful to Thelema and politics in the real world, so congratulations on that.


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 5:54 pm  
"thamiel" wrote:
Most of the posts up to this point sum it up quite succinctly; political Thelema ranges from spiritual anarchism through to spiritual fascism...and everything in-between

The thing is, thamiel, that anarchism and fascism don't work in the real world, and neither does socialism (assuming that one differentiates between fascism and socialism); these have been tried and have failed (or are still failing) miserably, so these things are disqualified on this basis. If something does not really work at all, it would not qualify as a valid consideration for applying the principles of Thelema to politics. Democracy does work in the real world, but probably not as well as it could with some modifications. So, this would be a valid consideration.


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 6:28 pm  

I am in no way sure where you get the idea that democracy work at all. It does not work at all. Democracy is slow and it promotes policy of the lowest common denominator not the higher ideals of the superior man of genius, nor does it reflect the customs and values on which the society is founded. It reduces all to the trash, when for example literature is aimed at the masses, you do not get War and Peace, you get trashy pulp fiction and Tabloid gossip, These represent the democratic result, the destruction of higher culture and refined sensibility, dragging the society into the sewage.

Fascism is not Socialism either though it did take some parts from socialism. (I do not promote Fascism.)

Nazi ism is much more akin to socialism, but it is not really fascism or socialism. It is a peculiar form of tyranny, a sort of Forced Hero worship that used every psychological trick in the book to demand worship of Hitler. It was Jim Jones on a massive scale. There was not even a mechanism by which anyone could ever replace the "Great and wonderful Hitler". Also the religion of Nazis was convoluted nonsense than no one other than Himmler and his SS even pretended to understand. (I do not promote Nazis)

Socialism is terrible, in trying to provide equally for all, it provides little for anyone, and has very poor work motivations. It kills the Will by their robin hood like wealth distribution. (i do not support Socialism)

What then do I support.

See Walden 2 by B.F, Skinner, as the basic methodology by which science is used rather than democracy to institute policy.
See the structure of the O.T.O. as the basic method of discerning the levels of social order, from the man of the earth, the lovers who would be the like the planners of Walden 2, and the Hermits who would be overseers that deal with the general structure of the community.
And See Evola, for a metaphysical notion of the Solar-Phallic principle on which the metaphysics of authority rests, which is certainly a similar metaphysics of the Cloud upon the sanctuary and the A.'.A.'. Which the G.'.D.'. inherited atleast a portion of the tradition of Initiation, and in general a great deal of the occult writers than influenced Crowley were of traditions that were atleast in part connected to what Evola called the transcendent initiatory tradition. Which Crowley also was a part of that tradition. Crowley, changed the formula by which the initiations are performed to match the book of the Law. But there are elements of Evola's politics which are suitable to OTO communities.


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 6:32 pm  

Democracy does work, as well as any compromise can be said to work.

Daemonocracy, on the other hand . . .


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 6:49 pm  
"name538" wrote:
Crowley has lined out pretty well that Thelema is not democratic or anarchistic, and that it is most definitely based on Aristocracy. Since Crowley cerated Thelema, I think it only sensible to what he says about it as correct.

The old boy was born in 1875, just ten years after the end of the American civil war, and he died just after WWII, when no one really knew what would become of the world at all, so we must be kind and understanding with regard to his limitations in political perspective. His genius, thankfully, has survived him and we have the lasting benefit of that in the areas of major focus in his life, including his conviction that there should be direct social and political applications of the Law of Thelema. Unfortunately, he was at a perfectly understandable loss with regard to the details of what some of those applications might be. He was a product of his times, at least in part, as are we all.


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 6:54 pm  
"Noctifer" wrote:
This is exactly my position as well. I guess I'm with Crowley here. Except my definition of aristocracy has everyone at the top.

Works for me, too, Noc, with each sovereign individual at the top. 🙂


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 7:11 pm  
"Noctifer" wrote:
Democracy does work, as well as any compromise can be said to work.

Agreed again, Noc, and compromise is a political constant, but the thing about democracy is that, in most cases, there are mechanisms in place to change it as we go, to fix it when it is broken and to refine it continuously. With the other forms of government being touted here, this is not possible.

(I can't beleive that I am actually finding myself in a position to be defending democracy in the year 2010ev.)


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 7:34 pm  
"name538" wrote:
I am in no way sure where you get the idea that democracy work at all. It does not work at all.

🙄 I do, of course, share Crowley's frustrations with democracy, the frustrations that you are parroting, name538, as most intelligent people do. But we do not throw the baby out with the bath water just because the baby pees in it, we change the water.


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 Anonymous
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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 9:36 pm  
"Urgeist" wrote:
"Camlion" wrote:
"Urgeist" wrote:
It seems to me that Thelema spells libertarian?

I'd like to hear more about this spelling, Urgeist, if you will?

Do what though will shall be the whole of the law. Absolute freedom = minimal or ideally no government. (Not to say that I'm a libertarian, or a thelemite for that matter).

Well, no government would be far from ideal, but so is unlimited government, imo. A government well focused on it's primary purposes would be good.

Looking forward to a number of new books coming soon.


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alysa
(@alysa)
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Posts: 655
04/06/2010 9:55 pm  

Surely Marco Pasi's "Aleister Crowley and the Temptation of Politics" is an interesting book worth waiting for, but to which other books are you waiting for, Camlion, and I don't mean the OTO-projects relating to Crowley, that's way to obvious, but to what other books, Camlion, your own perhaps seeing in publication? Best wishes, Alysa


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 10:23 pm  

That last one is really a mixed blessing, Alysa, but the AC diaries is the one that interests me the most.


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alysa
(@alysa)
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04/06/2010 10:51 pm  

Just was wishing to make you smile, Camlion, but what do you think of the revised and expanded edition of "Perdurabo" that will be released later this year, for example, Camlion?


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 Anonymous
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04/06/2010 11:26 pm  

Thanks, alysa, I could use one about now 😉

I think of "Perdurabo" as the ultimate AC bio, by far, and look forward to the new edition.


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phthah
(@phthah)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 210
05/06/2010 12:02 am  

93,

"AEternitas" wrote:
Thelema is not something only reserved for some elitist group of adepts. the gnosis of ones true will is available to anyone who sets out to find it. Every man and every woman is a star.

Yes! Very well put! The Law is indeed for all! I like that phrasing also, "the gnosis of ones true will" and that was kind of what I was getting at in another thread. That being said though, I'm not sure that "name538" was actually saying that it was reserved for the elite, or even if he was, I am curious about something here. You said,

"AEternitas" wrote:
what man doesnt dream of being a king, a bird or a fish?

True, but dreaming of being something and actually being that are two different things and most come to realize that some dreams arent' practical. True Will is not something you dream about. It's something you do! For one example, a person may dream of being a rock star, but they don't have the talent to do it. So, when it is said that...

"name538" wrote:
Ideally, Each individual will find their proper station and no one will want to be other than what they are, even the sewer worker has no resentment of his station nor aspiration to some other ideal role.

Could it not be possible that a person might be content being a trash collector or a city worker or salesman etc? Do their job each day and go home to their spouse or whatever makes them happy. Thoughts? I'm just throwing this out for discussion, not necessarily leaning one way or the other. Incidentally though, I wouldn't say that this would be their "proper station" because this implies inferiority, which would absolutely not be the case.

93 93/93
phthah


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 Anonymous
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05/06/2010 1:17 am  
"phthah" wrote:
Could it not be possible that a person might be content being a trash collector or a city worker or salesman etc? Do their job each day and go home to their spouse or whatever makes them happy. Thoughts? I'm just throwing this out for discussion, not necessarily leaning one way or the other. Incidentally though, I wouldn't say that this would be their "proper station" because this implies inferiority, which would absolutely not be the case.

Of course, phthah, not only is it possible but it's a fact of life. And no one does a thing better, any given thing, or is happier doing it, than someone who's true Will is to do that thing. As for the repeated use of the term "proper station," this is so blatantly condescending that it is difficult to believe that it is sincerely intended, if you know what I mean.


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 Anonymous
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05/06/2010 3:27 am  

"The inferior never lives a fuller life than when he feels his existence is subsumed in a greater order endowed with a center; then he feels like a man standing before leaders of men, and experiences the pride of serving as a free man in his proper station." -Julius Evola

Let us imagine that the True WILL is as a bus on which one has booked passage on the moment of one's incarnation. The bus has a route on which it travels, and you within the bus look out and see many wonderful things and many terrifying things. You see signs than say next left the greatest thing and you want to visit that thing, but the bus does not go that way, it was not in your WILL to visit that Great thing and so you sulk in sorrow as you miss out.
You see a sign, Beware next right the passage is awful and terrifying you do not want to go that way but the bus does not change course, your WILL goes on and you experience the terror of the route.

In the End You can not change what your WILL is, you can either learn to love all that your bus takes you to, and no longer to long for things outside of that bus route, or you can live your life in resentment and sorrow.

Do what thou Wilt, means to no longer desires things not part of your WILL, to not fear, hate or deny things than are a part of your WILL.

Make the most of your trek through this life and unite fully with every event of your WILL, throw yourself into every event the bus takes you to.


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 Anonymous
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05/06/2010 4:12 am  
"Camlion" wrote:
(I can't beleive that I am actually finding myself in a position to be defending democracy in the year 2010ev.)

I feel exactly the same way! Name a single politician who isn't a scumbag. Some pickle, eh, if a choice between morons is what we've been left with as the most workable solution!


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 Anonymous
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05/06/2010 1:17 pm  

It makes me think even more that what is required is not a revolution in politics or society.

What is required (and is, I think, occurring) is a revolution in the quality of consciousness of each individual. Each individual, each for themselves. It happens under many names. It has enemies but they'll find the effort isn't worth it eventually, and revolute (or whatever the infinitive is) themselves.

Not a new social order, not a new political order, but a new order of individual - the ultimate socio-political order. Once you have it at the per-unit stage, the rest is inevitable.

As this process continues, two precisely complementary things will happen. The people doing the voting will improve, and so will the people being voted for. As a result, "systems" will improve across the board, and be less intrinsically inhuman, which means of course that everyone gets what they need and want : the needs and wants will be authentic, not driven by the policies of exploitation or manipulation - ie. they will be voluntary, or Thelemic. This is ubquitous aristocracy, or Thelema. But the revolution is one of consciousness, individual consciousness.


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 Anonymous
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05/06/2010 1:30 pm  

...and there's nothing like a crisis for a revolution of consciousness. So hold on tight, folks - (or let go 😉 - as you wish ).


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sonofthestar
(@sonofthestar)
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Posts: 375
05/06/2010 3:23 pm  

93!

What you have addressed, is quite true Noctifer!
And yes Camlion, and everyone else realizing that
No one will be "assigned" by anyone,
to any kind of "proper station".
The individual alone, will assign his/her own self,
to whatever station in life, they alone designate to be proper;
as an act of their own choosing.
Freedom from political, and government constraint, is the aim.
Would it be an irony of ironies, that a government...
could exist having such a scheme as central to it's purpose?
But you have, hit the nail on the head, as to how the major process
proceeds; slower than most would fancy though.
It would, inevitably, with time,
lead to governments of an increasingly more Thelemic
disposition.

93!! 93! 93!


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 Anonymous
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05/06/2010 3:50 pm  

Vive la Révolution !


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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05/06/2010 7:30 pm  

93,

Thelema implies the freedom of Choice. Freedom of Choice implies the ability to move in one's proper orbit as a Star without hindrance from any other Star. Each Star thus carries with it an internal mission to reach its own full potential, that potential being the eventual Perfect Expression of Itself. The Law of Thelema allows each Star the freedom to make the Choices which may bring a Star to It's Expression.

That said, I find it extremely hard to believe that Thelema is to be used in government in any manner that includes, "the people of X must do thus, and abide by thus." For there is a solid counter argument, one that any true Thelemite will see, that every man and every woman should be free to choose whether to "abide in this bliss or no". The best I can see is a Thelema city-state with general functionality laws, but not laws which are used to determine the overall course of the people. Of course, a successful blissful city-state of Thelema, if done properly, will become as a beacon of Light to the world. Thus, in a properly formed Thelemic form of government, it's success will be simply undeniable and unavoidable. If/when it does appear and take hold, the other forms of government will not be able to stand toe-to-toe with its ideals.

Thelema, and government in the law of Thelema, in my opinion, do not reside completely in any political party in existence today, even libertarian. There may be some parties that have perceived and worked to pursue aspects of Thelema, but not Thelema Itself.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
05/06/2010 8:11 pm  
"name538" wrote:
"The inferior never lives a fuller life than when he feels his existence is subsumed in a greater order endowed with a center; then he feels like a man standing before leaders of men, and experiences the pride of serving as a free man in his proper station." -Julius Evola

Let us imagine that the True WILL is as a bus on which one has booked passage on the moment of one's incarnation. The bus has a route on which it travels, and you within the bus look out and see many wonderful things and many terrifying things. You see signs than say next left the greatest thing and you want to visit that thing, but the bus does not go that way, it was not in your WILL to visit that Great thing and so you sulk in sorrow as you miss out.
You see a sign, Beware next right the passage is awful and terrifying you do not want to go that way but the bus does not change course, your WILL goes on and you experience the terror of the route.

In the End You can not change what your WILL is, you can either learn to love all that your bus takes you to, and no longer to long for things outside of that bus route, or you can live your life in resentment and sorrow.

Do what thou Wilt, means to no longer desires things not part of your WILL, to not fear, hate or deny things than are a part of your WILL.

Make the most of your trek through this life and unite fully with every event of your WILL, throw yourself into every event the bus takes you to.

This "bus" of yours, a bus being a means of conveyance for multiple individuals traveling in a common general direction, is a terrible analogy to true Will, but is an excellent analogy for this "proper station" idea, an antiquated notion that is itself contrary to the sovereignty of the individual at the core of the Thelemic wordview, as I know it.

This idea automatically subsumes the conscious role of the individual to the greater good, when in reality a given individual in the real world may be naturally inclined to work consciously in the interest of the greater good or may not be so inclined at all. At a point when the individual has come to truly know himself he will know whether this is for him or not. He may take "the bus" with others or may travel alone or may not travel very far at all, and the decision is for him to make voluntarily in accord with his own natural inclinations and aptitudes, his true Will.

Among our human species, there are always enough individuals whose natural inclinations lend themselves toward consciously pursuing the greater good, so that not everyone is forced to participate directly and consciously in such endeavors, although everyone does so collectively by voluntarily fulfilling their own natural functions, even if that includes just minding their own business, consciously.

Free men and woman need not be ruled by the principles of efficient slave management, because they have opted voluntarily for Liberty, being freedom and responsibility in equal measure - the freedom to do one's true Will and the responsibility to do that true Will and nothing beyond its scope. There is no need for a 'true Will police' among Thelemites.

As for the rest, the slaves shall serve - as they already do, as they always have. These serve their own fears, fears of other men, of fate, of gods, of money or lack thereof and of the laughter of their fellows, "the folk folly." They feel little, they are mostly numb, and what little they feel is, again, only their fears balanced by weak joys. They are very easily self-managed, the slightly weaker being ruled and policed by the slightly stronger among them, and they mostly want nothing more than to be left alone in their misery to fulfill those functions necessary for survival.

They become dangerous only when the utter aimlessness of the herd allows them to stampede in the face of one fear or another. These are the mostly faceless, mindless masses that have voluntarily opted out of the Liberty of the Law of Thelema, or have not even heard of it yet.

As always, there is great hope through education, and mandating mass compliance with the Law of Thelema is impossible. Only the voluntary submission of each individual to his or her own inner truth, true Will, will result in success overall.


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 Anonymous
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05/06/2010 8:23 pm  

The bus might as well be a taxi.
The idea being that you can in no way Choose to do other than your WILL. That your body is totally determined from cradle to the grave in accordance with the physical laws. And that your mind has a degree of liberty from that course that the body takes automatically irregardless of the minds desires or protests. Thus you can either WILL to do what your body is going to do any way, or constantly face upset when you do not actually achieve what you want to do that is outside the path your body will go on it's own.

The master has no mind at all, and is just a body that goes.

This is not a perfect analogy but close.


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 Anonymous
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05/06/2010 8:59 pm  

There is some room to swerve, but you can't do just anything, the more energy you use to swerve away from your True WILL, the harder the world will push you right back to it, like an Elastic Tether. Nature will not stop short of pushing back so hard that it kills you in the process. If your behavior causes the bus driver to swerve, you may very well cause a head on collision, that destroys your WILL and your life, not to mention the life in the other cars and it alters the course of those who must clean up the wreckage, in order to continue on their own lives.

To prevent you from interfering with other drivers and to ensure that you are able to get where your WILL takes you, some one's WILL is to design the road system and to discerns rules of driving that means for example that you drive in your own lane. Everyone has their own destination, but everyone has a proper lane, and speed limit, course to take, etc. This prevents collisions. If everyone just drives any which way willy nilly, relying on the other cars erratic swerving to push them into place, then the road is a mess, no one can get to their destination, constant collision and wreckage cause you to waver in your course, you swerve into the other lane others swerve into your lane, it's chaos.

Thus we have enlightened highway department workers who help us organize each in our proper place, so than we can all arrive at our goals efficiently.


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sonofthestar
(@sonofthestar)
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05/06/2010 9:12 pm  

93!

So long as these "Helpful Highway workers" offer non-coercive directions,
fine.
If they dare stop the driver choosing to go his/her way,
(be that way in the right, or wrong direction)---
with the mindset of forcibly redirecting said driver,
to go in a direction other than what said driver chooses...
said driver has the right to run them over!

93! 93! 93!


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 Anonymous
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05/06/2010 9:48 pm  

Anyone has the "Right" to do anything they have the power to get away with.
But just because you can do something does not mean it's a good idea.
I could drive 120 MPH down the highway but it's dangerous and unwise. Also The Police have every "right" to stop me, because they have power, they have cars and guns and the support of others, so if I disobey them, they can use force against me. The have the Right to do this because they CAN do it.

Rights are irrelevant, what matters is, does the behavior support your TRUE WILL. Which includes that you have to work within the power structures that you are in. If you are a Jew in Nazi Germany, you can't just whine that you are being oppressed, because you have the right to not be killed in equal measure to the Nazi's right to kill you, in the end the strongest will survive. If you stronger or more clever that the gestapo then you live if not they kill you. There is no right or wrong, only strength and impotence.

The dog and the rabbit, if the rabbit is fast it lives, if the dog is faster the rabbit dies.

However, mass holocaust, caused problems as any mass killing might, even the mass killing of trees can cause a desert. Thus, the Karmic backlash on the Nazi's because they upset the political eco-system and created enemies.

Thus, when you have a proper enlightened leadership, they find ways to allow society to function in such a way as not to break the homeostasis, where one individual or group can fulfill it's WILL without restricting the WILL of the other. When conflict in inevitable, they can ensure sportsmanship and respect are upheld on a level playing field.

Of course for example the Nazi's had the unfair advantage over the unarmed Jews, and the did not have mutual respect, They fought, but not as brothers.

You should not remove all fighting, the Rabbit and the Dog must fight, as part of what the Dog is, is bound up in chasing prey, likewise part of what makes a rabbit what it is, is to be chased AS prey. If you prevent this predator-prey relationship both the dog and the rabbit become Fat and Lethargic, they have no TRUE WILL, no reason to live, other than to Chase and be chased.


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 Anonymous
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05/06/2010 10:45 pm  

Assuming a completely lack of conscience, anyone has the ability to do anything they have the power to get away with. This is not in alignment with True Will, period.


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 Anonymous
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06/06/2010 3:09 am  

Well said sync, the complete lack of conscience would indicate a lack of wholeness or humanity or balance, and therefore a lack of full authenticity for the "will" or desire on the part of the person doing the doing. This is why improvement in the quality of consciousness, or Magick, is a central part of Thelema, imo. So, insofar as a term like "True will" can be said to have any meaning at all beyond the poetic, that's how that bit works as I see it.

People will always ultimately do what they like, which is why no authority will ever tell other people what their station in life is in an ultimately successful way. Improvement of the quality of consciousness leads directly to improvement in the quality of intentions, wills, or desires. Improved desires means improved realities all round.

And success is our proof, after all. All the rationalisations in the world will simply be piling wood on the pyres which will hopefully eventually be lit under the "True Will police" Camlion mentioned, who name538 implies, should these unfortunate souls ever be hypnotised into believing that interference is in any possible way connected with Thelema, which is the law of life/desire (will / love), light (consciousness, awareness, knowledge), and liberty.


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 Anonymous
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06/06/2010 3:26 am  

Liberty does not mean interference, not even "helpful" interference. It means liberty. The path to hell is paved with good intentions - you mention Nazis, name538, but believe it or not, the Nazis genuinely believed they were doing the very best they could. They did not go "yeah, we're the bad guys, and we rock! How evil are WE?". No. Neither do the Islamic terrorists, Christian missionaries or Marxists who destroy entire ways of life and millions upon untold millions of miserable deaths - no, they all think it's the right thing, what they're doing, that they're "helping" the people they're killing or deracinating, or somehow helping a better overall cause, by imposing their "better way" upon them. The "Us and Them" bullshit has to stop - and the immature model you seem to have accepted is riddled with this liability. Because "they" will always win, and always have won.

The inclination to think like this, and to spend so many words on it, combined with the cartoon-like dead physics model of the universe as a rationalisation or justification for an assumption of presumed superiority, is in itself a slightly pathological thing, name538, and speaks of a mortal fear of all things human, unpredictable, emotional, and irrational (ie. 93% of what we and the universe within/around us, is). I'd be more focussed on improving the quality of my consciousness (humanity, wholeness) before I did any more preaching, if I were you. But that's just me.


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 Anonymous
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06/06/2010 3:29 am  

Ok, let us say that my WILL is to cut wood and sell it to the furniture factory.
To get the wood to the furniture store, I have to cross a river, which limits how much wood I can carry. It is also wary dangerous.

Now at the factory there is a worker who is a great carpenter but he finds furniture a luke warm use for his skill at best. He feels a strong need to build something less luxury and more useful to others.

One day an adept comes to the village and speaks with many of the people in town. He hears the frustration of the wood cutter, he hears the complaint of the carpenter and he sees that the factory could use more wood that they get in weekly.
The adept then, talks with the wood cutter and the carpenter and works out a contract agree able to both. The carpenter will design a bridge, in exchange the wood cutter will pay him a bridge use tax. And the factory will buy more cords of wood per week.

Now the Wood cutter can do his WILL to cut and sell wood more efficiently, the factory workers can meet their demands for more furniture and the carpenter now has a project of which he can feel proud and that he made a special contribution to the community.

All because the Adept who could see beyond the limit of his own Nose and work to help others and the community as a whole.


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 Anonymous
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06/06/2010 3:37 am  

No, let us not say anything of the kind.

You won't get anywhere at all with these inane hypothetical scenarios of your own construction, except to make us do this 🙄

Chapter 23 of the Book of Lies has good advice for those who are stuck in their heads.


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 Anonymous
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06/06/2010 4:07 am  

http://www.watchadventuretime.com/my-two-favorite-people/

here watch this from 11:20
That's where the second episode starts.
Yes I know it's a cartoon, it makes my point

Also see Trigun the Knives vs Vash way of thinking.

as children they see a spider about to eat a fly it caught, Vash wants feels sentimental about both and does not want to see either get harmed, but how can he save both. While he is fretting, his Brother knives crushes the spider to save the fly.
Vash gets all upset crying, I want to save them both. Knives (rightfully) tells Vash he is foolish, that either the fly dies or the spider will starve. So you can't save both.

Your trying to make Thelema out to be a sentimentalist and impractical ideal like Vash.
I am saying it is mean to be an Ideal of strength where WILL and power decide who lives and dies, where effort is used to design a system where all elements can interact and even fight and strive seemingly against each other. You can't save both spider and fly, but you can help spiders to be even more efficient catchers of flies and files both better at avoiding spiders and bigger and more juicy food if and when they get caught. A flies WILL is to evade spiders and eventually be eaten. Not what flies want, what they are mechanically designed to be, the role they perform in nature is their WILL.


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 Anonymous
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06/06/2010 4:22 am  

See "Everyone needs help, but some of them want exactly what another does not want"

This is the state of things left to their own devices.
Thus you need an adept to figure out, how we can satisfy everyone as best possible.
And where it is not possible to satisfy everyone, we need someone with Wisdom to know whom to help and whom to leave in the lurch.

Solomon could not give the baby to both mothers, he made a choice.


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 Anonymous
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06/06/2010 9:55 am  

Do you intend on filling every thread with this stuff?


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 Anonymous
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06/06/2010 10:08 am  

Do you think a Star chooses where it goes?
A star's course is plotted out by the gravity of all the other stars that are near by, and a star no matter how forceful it's inner drives, can never leave that orbit which is designated to it by external factors.

Thus in is with us, that our WILL is plotted in relation to those whom are around us we do not decide what our WILL is, we must discover that WILL and seek to DO it, without swerving. If we deviate from that WILL too far we risk injury, death, sorrow, disillusionment, fines, imprisonment, alienation, ridicule, or some other catastrophe that will put us back on track.

Thus your WILL is set, it is not anything you might want to do, it is your preset course, you can't deviate anymore than a river can choose not to follow the river bed.


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 Anonymous
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06/06/2010 10:17 am  

Just look after your own improvements of consciousness, or whatever, name538, don't trouble yourself with this stuff. If your intention is to find "the best" solution to the human condition. Not playing theory games. Don't trouble yourself with these hypothetical questions. Deal with life as you live it, and grow with your experience, don't try to set it all up to be perfect in advance - that kind of misses the whole point of bothering. Every event is unique, and your business is only with what concerns you in reality. There is no master plan, to be administered by a master class of humans or "adepts" as you call them. Arguably Crowley's greatest influence, Oskar Eckenstein, thought all Crowley's ideas about occultism were rubbish. AC admired him more than perhaps anyone else in his life, except maybe Alan Bennett, and considered him a type of guru. This is how it must always be. This is natural "law" or authority. There will never be a "complete" system, because systems are incomplete by their very nature. There is a factor infinite and unknown, and always will be.


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 Anonymous
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06/06/2010 10:30 am  

The whole purpose of the A.'.A.'. is to discover and train adepts, Geniuses or Christs, who will better humanity and organize society such as to produce the highest and greatest potential out of all the Raw material, i.e. the base human beings. The school than create the ubermensche, the New Kings of the Horus Aeon who are the administers of the sacraments of Horus, the connection between the Ideal and the actual, Just as for example Arthur was the King who connected the Britons with the Osiris Traditional Divinity, he was as it where Ruler by Divine Rite of the Osiris era. Thelema needs to produce such Kings who will lead us under the Divine rites of Horus.

Where Divinity under Osiris was handed down from above, Under Horus we must create Divinity in our own life as the Child of our actions. This is simply a change in the Formula of how one becomes Divine, how the Gold is produced. It's a change in method, but the Goal in the same, the creation of divine rulers and a system of order that reflects the Formula of the Aeon.


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 Anonymous
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06/06/2010 10:34 am  

We don't need the cartoon version, thanks.


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 Anonymous
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06/06/2010 10:40 am  

The cartoon made a point, that there were lots of people who all had unique WILLs, they all had something they wanted to do. When the kid tried to solve one problem, he cerated another new problem. If he did nothing, the problems were not resolved. They were in constant conflict. But he found a way to please everyone, without changing the behavior or any one of the unites. They all did that one Thing which they WILLed to do anyway, and yet when organized correctly all the parts mutually satisfied all the needs of the others. That is proper Thelemic Rule.

The Osiris Rule would have told the men to stop wrestling or else they would be killed by the king, or the mountain told to stop crying or be subject to punishment etc. They would all be subject to changing their behaviors to suit the King's ideal.
But in the Thelemic solution no behavior is changed at all.


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 Anonymous
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06/06/2010 2:21 pm  

Greetings

"name538" wrote:
The whole purpose of the A.'.A.'. is to discover and train adepts, Geniuses or Christs, who will better humanity and organize society such as to produce the highest and greatest potential out of all the Raw material, i.e. the base human beings. The school than create the ubermensche, the New Kings of the Horus Aeon who are the administers of the sacraments of Horus, the connection between the Ideal and the actual, Just as for example Arthur was the King who connected the Britons with the Osiris Traditional Divinity, he was as it where Ruler by Divine Rite of the Osiris era. Thelema needs to produce such Kings who will lead us under the Divine rites of Horus.

Name538, you’re scaring me… 🙂

I understand the need for one to realize one’s own higher aspects, but it seems to me that the idea of creating some ‘ubermenschen’ as you put it, contradicts the basic idea of every man and every woman being a star. The idea of “creating” a type of man implies that one works against this man’s nature instead of empowering him to accomplish his own potential, consciously.

As I see it, what society needs are plain Humans who dare to be human enough in order to fulfill their divine potential on earth. Humans will probably exist for a long time as an outcome of the evolutionary process of other realms. So, there is another question here: does one need to create an ‘ubermensch’ or should rather use one’s Will to change tracks to another evolutionary process?

Regards
Hecate


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 Anonymous
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06/06/2010 2:34 pm  

Oops! It got too occult and rather irrelevant to the topic in the end… sorry!


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 Anonymous
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06/06/2010 2:41 pm  

The memory is held within the sleeping mind, the unconscious. It is the side of your consciousness that remains in the darkness. The energy source for the circle, for the dream, for the storm, rests within the same darkness.

In speaking words spread out like webs of vibration, reaching deep into the light and bringing forth the power of the Storm:

1 My world responds to my mind and my mind responds to my thoughts. My thoughts respond to me as I am none of those things. What I am exists eternally and through eternity I have become aware of what I am. One in mind and body, One in the world of mind, and One with all things.

2 How I experience my Self depends upon my awareness. My consciousness is a greenhouse in which my awareness may grow. Through growth I become more of who I am and aware of how I grow. What I know is who I am and how I know is what I am.

3 Awareness may be bound or free. My awareness is bound by thought, thoughts which focus on the outer world of form and interaction. Such thoughts bind the way I experience myself to the world around me, creating a sense of dependence, craving, fear, and struggle. When I struggle I lose my awareness in the thoughts that follow and forget who I am. In losing my awareness I fall into the sleep of forgetfulness and dream the dreams of the isolated mind. Who I am becomes bound by the dreams and I cry out for my freedom.

4 Awareness may be freed by thought. My awareness is freed by thoughts which guide my perceptions inward to their source, to my spirit whose nature is limitless and unbound. As I free my thoughts I discover the unconditional state of joy that beats fiercely within me like the heart of the hummingbird. I hear the rhythm of this beating heart like a distant drum calling to me through the dream. In the heartbeat I feel the burning power of my ancient past beckoning me to awaken and to remember who I am. As I remember what I am I become what I remember. I set myself free.

5 I create my Self by choosing my thoughts. I cannot add to or take away from my Self. For all that I am is present in each moment and through my awareness of the present I have access to all that I am. All that I am is whole and complete in the moment. Wholeness is holiness and holiness is the measure of my freedom within the dream. I choose my thoughts by knowing my Self and finding myself in all things.

6 My mind is the gate between the worlds. My heart is the light that binds the me to this space and the place where I may find freedom in this life. In this life I am as free as I allow myself to be. I am implicate, dweller in the space between the worlds.

7 My journey begins and ends with the question, “Who am I?” For in understanding my Self I understand all others for we are all One and the Same.

8 In my present form or in any form I may come. The Universe spins around me as I move forward in a straight line, changing forms as I go. What comes and what goes does not alter that line. For what I am cannot be bound.

9 My forms live and die but I continue on. My treasures come and go, but I remain free. My mind is my vessel and my body its home. In this space I am within all space. In my heart I am one with all hearts. Space is my circle and the circle is my heart. I can move freely in this space by remembering who I am. How I Know Is What I Am.

You are the power that you seek.


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