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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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06/11/2006 7:58 pm  

Has the caliphate helped to evolve the principles of Thelema?
Has the leadership of the caliphate done a sterling , wonderful job in projecting Thelema on to the world? What would you change that would improve the caliphate's mission statement?


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the_real_simon_iff
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06/11/2006 8:18 pm  

93, Hawthornrussell!

Regarding your first question: Can you - ahem - please repeat THE principles of Thelema again?
Regarding you second question: Everything outside of "sterling, wonderful" does not count?
Regarding the third: Could you quote this mission statement?

Maybe I am wrong, but as a poll, "Do you like the Caliphate?" would have been easier - and fairer. But maybe I get you all wrong.

Love=Law
Lutz


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ianrons
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06/11/2006 8:42 pm  

I agree that it does sound confusing, but the poll question is "Has the Caliphate helped to evolve the principles of Thelema?", and the rest is just for discussion I suppose.

For clarification, this is the "Caliphate O.T.O.", not a Muslim sect...


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 Anonymous
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06/11/2006 9:29 pm  

I did vote, but I'm not sure the question is entirely fair & results might be misleading. The function of the Caliphate OTO, as I understand it as an outsider looking in, is the traditional one of promulgating the Law of Thelema and establishing a working basis for it. Based on that, I don't expect it to "evolve the principles of Thelema", just to promulgate and establish it. But I can think of at least two other valid OTO organizations that are more geared towards evolving Thelema beyond the "traditional" OTO structure.


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ianrons
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06/11/2006 9:33 pm  

I think it is at least an interesting question. I interpreted "evolve" as something like "manifest" -- in the sense of "educe, bring out". The question of whether the "Caliphate" OTO has "promulgated" the Law of Thelema would, I think, have more to do with external factors such as the receptivity of humanity at this stage, so would also be unfair, IMO.


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 Anonymous
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06/11/2006 10:44 pm  

93

I believe a simple yes or no isn't sufficient or fair. In regards to publishing books, the caliphate seems to have done a fair job in getting out and keeping out the main works of Crowley, though obviously there could be many more books in regular print (and I dont enjoy how Hymenaeus Beta gets his name on all the books by 'editing' them and putting an intro, but that is my personal opinion.) My understanding is that it was hard to get certain books in the past (like 777) back in the day, but that could've been aroudn the time McMurtry was starting the caliphate up.

In regards to physical manifestations of temples, classes, lectures, and other things of manifesting Thelema, I would say the OTO has done less than a fair job. In the Bay Area, there is a lack of any kind of standalone temple, let alone classes lectures and such. The call for liberty and freedom at the end of the new Liber AL is very invigorating, but when one contacts the OTO and finds their temple is a rented space, a temporary space, or inside another place, it seems like they havent done much to start the fight for Liberty of stars.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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07/11/2006 1:13 am  

93 all!

Well, at the very least, they helped to evolve thelema by kicking out Kenneth Grant. As a consequence, he now has established the Typhonian OTO and he is evolving the current. Also, because of the Caliphate, Thelema is now a "real religion" with tax exempt status. Sounds like they are still GOing, and as long as they are, the organization is still "alive". As long as it is "alive" evolution is happening. What I'm trying to say is if it weren't evolving there would be no OTO now. EDIT: I didn't vote in the poll. Let's all start making these threads evolutionary ๐Ÿ˜•

93 93/93.


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 Anonymous
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07/11/2006 2:10 am  

93,

I agree with N.O.X. in that evolution, as I read it, is an inevitable consequence of the OTO's existence. Nothing is static, and even if the organization did nothing but try to promulgate an orthodox Thelemic ideology this would still be an evolution, just, in the wrong direction.

Love=Law

- Shangren


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empiricus
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07/11/2006 2:17 am  

I will not vote, it only encourages them. The idea of a poll is amusing for a punt but from another perspective faintly crazy and at worst ridiculous. Democracy is a good thing but you can have too much of it and I speak in this way from an anarchist perspective. Populism, electronic or otherwise, is not the last word and nor should it be, in respect of the OTO or anything else. A million people can be wrong.

The use of the term 'Caliphate', although uniquely identifying, is in use mostly perjoritive. Being open and being a little more interested in convergence and what unites us is far more interesting than what divides us - though it should remain true that what appears to divide us should also be faced in true and honest debate - "fight ye like brothers", like brothers - rather than swept under the carpet.

The OTO we are refering to, from its own side, clearly seeks to evolve and develop Thelema, whatever critics might think to the contrary. It has been responsible for many good things, numbers many good people among its members and is a big part of what makes this very debate possible.

The call to thought and debate around this is helpful but if it is a thread asking for a 'poll' and inviting further crude polarisation, it is somewhat disappointing. For me, this is a possibly well meaning but misguided call, almost along all too familiar contemporay corporate, 'reality' tv and electronic democracy lines, to reduce things to an overly simplistic back and/or white level to little benefit.

All the best....


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kidneyhawk
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07/11/2006 3:23 am  

A great post, EMPIRICUS, one which displays considerable sanity and I will add an "Evolutionary" angle! After all, if the Current with its many and diverse energy streams can achieve something of a "braided cord," we might see the Heart of Thelema really radiating its Light over the Earth and the War-God Horus doing more than spinning wheels in mud (and then slinging it). There's Tyler Durden: "Our War is a Spiritual War...and our Great Depression is our Lives." As Thelemites, I think we'd like to view ourselves as upgrading our experience in the Universe and roaring with the Incoming Flood of Light, Life, Liberty and Love. But I don't know. It seems that there's not much difference between the way "profane" organizations are run and those of "Thelemic" persuasion. So are we self-deceptive in thinking we're a "cut above" if we, ourselves, behave in such a fashion? What complicates things further is when, say, Ordo A decides "Yeah, Unity, Common Ground, Cooperation" and Ordo B responds with "Of course...on OUR terms..." and then...well, we're back to the line of seperation. You really HAVE to seperate the "wheat from the chaff" to do the decent harvest. And back to the world of the (ahem) "profane," if farmers can do it...well, why can't those who have accepted the Law of Thelema?

There seems to be a great and far-reaching network "behind the scenes" of Brothers who DO fight as Brothers on the Battlefield of the Great Work instead of against each other. Differing perspectives, labors, points of focus should be the Glory of the Invisible Society, that so many Star-Selves can blaze their unique orbits in the same Universe.

So...I think I'll hold my vote, too. If I were to say "Oh, I think the Caliphate OTO is a stagnant fossil producing nothing innovative," I'd drop that judgemental blanket over every person who is a member-and I cannot doubt that certain individuals so aligned have followed out their own radical self-made paths while being involved with the workings of that particular Order. I have perceived others as repressing the Current. Has any Order been free of this?

I think the main question is one that we poise at ourselves...where are we on our Path? To what degree are we doing what we WILL? Where do our limits lie and why? Is there anything that curbs our creativity and PERSONAL evolution...and are we fighting against THAT within ourselves? Our individual progress is the progress of our Orders-and the progress of the Universe.

93

Kyle


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 Anonymous
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07/11/2006 9:42 am  

Some of the replies have been evasive , and have gone off topic. So i will put it another way.
Has the caliphate helped to evolve the ideas , principles, concepts and practices of Thelema?
( Note; No materialism can be used in this debate. You cant use the point of buying buildings , or the amount of members it has. That is not a reflection of the evolution of the Thelemic current. And no. Its not a Rorschach test!!! ) ๐Ÿ˜€


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kidneyhawk
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07/11/2006 2:41 pm  

Its not a Rorschach test!!! )

Still, per Lutz's comment above, it feels like a VERY sticky question with the potential to find the thread locked down after a day of escalating banter (I'm just recalling a recent thread which began, in a more "forward" sort of fashion, with the sentiments that the COTO is a worthless stick in the mud...didn't exactly go well-and wasn't that the one where Ian challenged us to a contest of politeness?).

May I very respectfully ask why YOU brought up the topic and poll?

I think there are a LOT of opnions on the topic but I also think its OK to go a little "off topic" and address issues that may result in a "Yea" or "Nay" reaction. Quite clearly, there is controversy, conflict etc involved with various Orders (inclu. the COTO) but beyond a tallied opinion poll, I'm really interested in the Evolutionary Aspect of the Thelemic Current as it manifests in both individuals and organizations, whether or not they get assessed as shining or tarnished at the moment.

I know this is not the sort of "direct reply" you were looking for but if the topic is up for discussion, let's look at some of the wider implications! Otherwise we're stuck with a "Caliphate Rocks!" or "Caliphate Blows" conclusion based on a handfull of opinions and numbers. And I can't imagine much more than hard feelings, rather than new ideas and valuable perspectives, emerging.

I'm just a damn Libra. ๐Ÿ˜†

93

Kyle


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the_real_simon_iff
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07/11/2006 3:24 pm  
"hawthornrussell" wrote:
Has the caliphate helped to evolve the ideas , principles, concepts and practices of Thelema?

93!

This one is pretty easy to answer, it is a clear YES! Why, it must have, because through Caliphate-copyrighted books people learn about Thelema - evolvement-help per se in my opinion. Also, the amount of help in evolvement was not asked for, so even if it was just some tiny part of one percent in anybody's opinion, the answer can be Yes. And moreover and funnily, even in failing (if the Caliphate might be considered a failure in anyone's eyes) one can be very helpful to a certain cause. I am sorry but I think this poll will show nothing more except the average spreading of COTO-likers, COTO-non-likers and undecided folks among the LAShTAL users. And it is definitely a pretty unhelpful poll in regards to the evolvement of the principles of Thelema.

Love=Law
Lutz


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 Anonymous
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07/11/2006 9:43 pm  

Thanks for the replies chaps.

Now i cant dispute the caliphate's motivation to publish the back catalogue of "copyright" material they are sitting on. No dispute. But...can the publishing of books be an argument for the evolution of the current? You could publish all of Crowley's material but that act is not a guarantee of the evolution of Thelema. People might find the books of no use to them. So to put the books to one side, how is the Caliphate developing the current in a modern context. No one has put forward a decent defence yet. How can the Caliphate counter the accusation that they are a historical re-enactment society? What new work and material have they presented that hasnt been touched by Crowley in anyway whatsoever?


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ianrons
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07/11/2006 10:11 pm  

What new work and material have they presented that hasnt been touched by Crowley in anyway whatsoever?

I don't see why "new work" doesn't include building up Thelemic Lodges and temples around the globe. Don't you think this is, at least, an important requirement for the development and evolution of the current? And isn't it, then, part of the evolutionary process itself?


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 Anonymous
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07/11/2006 10:46 pm  

It would seem to me that evolution is a matter of the modification of a vehicle according to its use. A marathon runner has the mind, and body of a marathon runner precisely because he habitually runs marathons, and trains not simply to do as well as his abilities allow, but to in actuality expand his abilities towards his peculiar aims. Presumably the marathon runner is modifying his vehicle not just according to habitual use, and training, but as a feature of his very will to be a marathon runner. A Thelemite, or Thelemic organization would presumably be doing nothing less by their going, and will. The resultant form would of course vary according to will.

What confusion perceived surrounding this process would in my mind be either a matter of perspective, misunderstanding, or opinion. Humbly, my own opinion touches on the differences between Homo Veritas, and Ordo Veritas, the latter of which I feel is a figment of the imagination when stated in terms of singular, and exclusive verity. As much as the will of individuals are divergent, so it seems to me that membership in orders, or not, would be as widely divergent.

En To Pan!
Two Crows


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 Anonymous
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07/11/2006 11:03 pm  
"hawthornrussell" wrote:
Now i cant dispute the caliphate's motivation to publish the back catalogue of "copyright" material they are sitting on. No dispute. But...can the publishing of books be an argument for the evolution of the current? You could publish all of Crowley's material but that act is not a guarantee of the evolution of Thelema.

I think evolution of the current will come from individuals, not from organizations. That could reflect my bias against organizations and their administrative politics. I know very little about the COTO or any other OTO. My magickal praxis evolved significantly after getting Duquette's Magick of Thelema when it first came out years ago. I think he's a member of the COTO. Therefore, I feel absolutely YES that publishing books and elucidating the finer points of Thelema has a vital evolutionary function.

"hawthornrussell" wrote:
How can the Caliphate counter the accusation that they are a historical re-enactment society?

I don't know, qabalistically? ๐Ÿ˜€

"hawthornrussell" wrote:
What new work and material have they presented that hasnt been touched by Crowley in anyway whatsoever?

This question seems to me to reflect the insidious cult of personality that plagues this field of endeavor. Who cares what ego package did what? And how does that help or hinder one's personal work? On the other hand, what branch of occultism hasn't been touched by AC in some way?


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empiricus
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07/11/2006 11:51 pm  
"hawthornrussell" wrote:
Some of the replies have been evasive , and have gone off topic. So i will put it another way.
Has the caliphate helped to evolve the ideas , principles, concepts and practices of Thelema?
( Note; No materialism can be used in this debate. You cant use the point of buying buildings , or the amount of members it has. That is not a reflection of the evolution of the Thelemic current. And no. Its not a Rorschach test!!! ) ๐Ÿ˜€

Of course it has but only in virtue of its members- it really is no more or less than the sum of the people who are its members. Is that clear enough and less 'evasive'?Some great, some good some, awful, some mediocre - all human life is to be found there much as everywhere else.in all organisations. Nothing whatever to do with buildings and I completely fail to understand the prejudice against materialism.

More importantly, what about everyone else, whoever they are, however they try and understand what their True Will is and actualise it in practice via or with some organisation or not. How are we, you and me, helping to evolve the ideas, principles, concepts and practices of Thelema, is a much, much more relevant question.

From this perspective who cares about the 'Caliphate' - still a prejudicial and perjoritive, if amusing, term in my book - What are we doing to evolve Thelema here and now, in the present moment, in our own lives? Can we have a poll on that?

All the best....


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 Anonymous
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08/11/2006 10:30 am  

Based on what I just saw in the News items, COTO has certainly evolved the concept of unnecessary restriction of information.

To paraphrase "Bob": "You'll have to PAY to know what you really think"!

I am relieved that Thelema is now safely back in the box. We can't let it get out, run around and scare or, God forbid, educate people.


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kidneyhawk
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08/11/2006 10:39 am  

Based on what I just saw in the News items, COTO has certainly evolved the concept of unnecessary restriction of information.

Can we confirm that the material filed under "Downloads Desist" is, in fact, copyright OTO, Inc?


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ianrons
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08/11/2006 11:03 am  

It is true that the Crowley letters/diaries/etc. are copyright OTO, regardless of whether the physical documents are owned by third parties (e.g., the Warburg Institute). Not sure about the Alostrael diaries, but I assume they are not (c) OTO. There is a thread somewhere here called "Crowley Copyright" which covers the issues surrounding this.


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kidneyhawk
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08/11/2006 11:24 am  

error posting-sorry


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kidneyhawk
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08/11/2006 11:25 am  

Wow.

When I began the Scarlet Women thread, I was amazed at the information that surfaced regarding Leah Hirsig. Of course, Leah is not the only "Historical SW" worthy of discussion-and I was hoping to Introduce some talk regarding Lady Frieda Harris who forms quite a contrast to Ms. Hirsig's role but is none the less a very fascinating person...I was THRILLED to see the letters appear on the site! Just wonderful. And then...

I thought for a second "Well, maybe someone in the COTO is working on a book and wants this info to come out in that format." And then I thought for another second "Good God, Kyle, how many books have been written based on well-known literature? Shakespeare, for example (that other poet who we "musn't forget")? I have no problem with someone presenting a biography or commentary INCORPORATING the material (and, of course, I'd buy it!) but to hang onto her (and his) work in this manner is just pointless (and note: a copyright holder has the-ahem-RIGHT to freely grant permission to use the copyrighted material-and here's Lashtal, offering it for membership viewing without any profit angle).

So-! Reviewing my own above comments, I still stand by the general notion that every individual stands by their own merit and ought not be judged or categorized by their group affiliation(s). Still, the decisions and direction that a group takes "officially" is certainly open to criticism.

Being "outside" the COTO, I could be told that such private Order Business is none of MY concern. But I didn't think that the letters of two dead people who have had a huge impact on ALL the OTOs and Pan-Thelema in general and then made available for view in a non-profit Thelemic context should be...how did Papanick phrase it?...put

safely back in the box

I think I'll cast my vote.

93

Kyle


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lashtal
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08/11/2006 11:31 am  

I will give more details later today when I am back at home regarding the circumstances surrounding my decision to remove the texts from the Downloads section. These are complex issues that have the potential to prove very harmful to LAShTAL.COM and they need to be handled with caution, regardless of how irritating they may be.

For the time being, it might be as well to leave some things unsaid pending a fuller account later today...

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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08/11/2006 12:16 pm  

Doh! Let us all learn from this that whenever something good is uploaded to Lashtal.com to download it immediately.

Perhaps this thread should be deleted and re-started so everyone who voted in the Caliphate's favour can now vote against them. ๐Ÿ˜ก

Or are we being presumptuous in assuming it's the Caliphate to blame?


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 Anonymous
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08/11/2006 12:18 pm  

It isn't only a case of them copywriting these aforementioned letters, the syndrome runs much deeper. They, (a couple of individuals rather) attempted to copywrite "Thelema" - a Greek word!

Desperate batrachian grapplings in the dark?

MK


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kidneyhawk
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08/11/2006 12:24 pm  

It isn't only a case of them copywriting these aforementioned letters, the syndrome runs much deeper. They, (a couple of individuals rather) attempted to copywrite "Thelema" - a Greek word!

Is this really true? Is there a reference to this? A copyright on the Word Thelema?

Mark of the Beast: (c)

๐Ÿ˜ฏ

Kyle


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frater_cug
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08/11/2006 12:54 pm  
"papanick" wrote:
Based on what I just saw in the News items, COTO has certainly evolved the concept of unnecessary restriction of information.

This is not really directed just at papanick but this quote seemed to be a good jumping off point.

Really take a look at the big picture, If they were all about "restriction of information" you would be forking out $800- $1600 dollars instead of being able to just go to http://www.the-equinox.org for free. Or you might be forking out $80.00 for ABA instead of stopping at http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib4.html .

These O.T.O. copyrighted documents were typed by O.T.O. members and distributed free of charge to the world as long as it's for personal use or research. If this is "restriction of information" What the H does B.O.T.A. do? ๐Ÿ˜‰

Most of the documents that are "restricted" are the sex magick stuff and the O.T.O. initiation rituals.. Things that I'll bet most of us have as pdf's anyway, right?

Sure there are things that would be very very nice to have, like more of Crowley's diaries, but really they are not necessary documents to have for the great work.

Well I how that is understandable.. My first cup of coffee is still brewing ๐Ÿ˜‰


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the_real_simon_iff
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08/11/2006 2:41 pm  

93!

I guess frater_cug is pretty right. Just try to find an "Outside the circles of time" for free on the web. Most Crowley stuff is either for free or at very reasonable prices (if you're not after rare editions of course). Funnily a lot of AC's diaries and notebooks would probably show how important it was for the prophet to have the OTO standing on a solid financial basis. It would be easier to understand if they (cOTO) would only restrict order-related material but unfortunately this seems to be not the case. Well, aside from material in private collections all the stuff is out there at the Warburg, at Harry Ransom and the like. So it seems we have to go there and read it for ourselves and wait for the day that another cOTO book will come out and we will all say: "Ah, now I know why they did not want us to read that first!" Another plan: Let's join the OTO and write that book ourselves. And let's not forget: Kenneth Grant's books are also full of little hints to super-secret unpublished AC material. When you have it, you don't want to share it. Every mother and father here will know. Until 2017 we all have to listen to nashimiron's sound advice and download everything before it is gone - the stuff I uploaded for example all came from the web, and most of it is still there I guess.

Anyway, not to leave from the topic too far: the cOTO is a little like the United States. It's very easy to hate them, but one should not forget that a lot of great work came and still comes from that side. And to stay in that analogy: tOTO (or any other OTO) is something like the small rogue country then, everybody tends to be on their side forgetting that not everything they do is good work (imho).

Looks to me this thread IS a Rorschach test!

Loveยฎ=Law™
Lutz


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 Anonymous
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08/11/2006 3:13 pm  

This is clearly a matter of selective censorship. The letters that support COTO's position in the copyright case are still up.

Hopefully Paul will clarify this for us later.

nick


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 Anonymous
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08/11/2006 4:22 pm  
"m.klaw" wrote:
It isn't only a case of them copywriting these aforementioned letters, the syndrome runs much deeper. They, (a couple of individuals rather) attempted to copywrite "Thelema" - a Greek word!

Desperate batrachian grapplings in the dark?

MK

I beleive Psychic TV copyrighted the PTV cross even though it's not entirely their invention too. I guess we should be thankful that Thelema is an Hellenic word and not one received from beyond. It might have been possible for someone to copyright it if they could argue they owned the copyright to the book in which the word was "invented". Then all genuine Thelemites would be forced to cease using the word in reference to themselves! ๐Ÿ™


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 Anonymous
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08/11/2006 4:40 pm  
"frater_cug" wrote:
Sure there are things that would be very very nice to have, like more of Crowley's diaries, but really they are not necessary documents to have for the great work.

As the magickal diary is widely considered to be essential for progress I would have thought that the more of them you can consume in your early years the better for your own diary. I personally find it very helpful to read such things, as it shows you how those that have gone before you have fared.

If the Caliphate are concerned that these diaries might reveal things which they would rather keep from the view of Joe Public then perhaps they could be issued together in a comprehensive, well edited version full of minute explanations of the more obscure references thus rendering it completely unnatractive to the average reader.


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 Anonymous
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08/11/2006 5:18 pm  

The "caliphate" really has made all the texts much more available, hermetic.com and the oto-usa.org grand lodge sites have extensive online repositories of the most important texts.

The OTO degrees have an element of suprise, so knowing what's going to happen could lesson the impact of the degrees.


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frater_cug
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08/11/2006 7:32 pm  
"nashimiron" wrote:
As the magickal diary is widely considered to be essential for progress I would have thought that the more of them you can consume in your early years the better for your own diary. I personally find it very helpful to read such things, as it shows you how those that have gone before you have fared.

Well it looks Crowley didn't think it was important. It seems he thought that the Vision and the Voice, The Amalantrah Working, The Paris Working, A Master of the Temple, etc... were sufficient otherwise I'll bet he would of published more of them.

And if we get down to the brass tacks if it is your Will to read the documents that have been removed, you will find them elsewhere. It just takes a bit of work.

In anycase, I personally detest the "Order Wars" that infects the entire occult community and this thread is really IMHO on the borderline. So I shall respectfully bow out of this conversation.


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 Anonymous
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08/11/2006 8:20 pm  

So...anyway..... to put aside the issue over the legalistic stuff. Can the sympathetic forum members put up a decent defence for the caliphate's ability to evolve the Thelemic current?

What is good about the caliphate's direction and ideas? What positive contributions have the caliphate given to the Thelemic community regardless of their stance?


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the_real_simon_iff
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08/11/2006 9:02 pm  
"hawthornrussell" wrote:
Can the sympathetic forum members put up a decent defence for the caliphate's ability to evolve the Thelemic current?

93, hawthornrussel!

I think you are pushing it too far now. Why should the cOTO defend itself (or has to be defensed by someone) and against whom? Since you are obviously of the opinion that the cOTO was not able to evolve the Thelemic current (whatever this means) it would be easier for all if you could simply state what in your opinion sucks about the cOTO, don't you think? What are they doing wrong? Me thinks I have literally hundreds of great books, great films and great music on my shelves that are somehow connected to cOTO. Most of what I know about magical work I have learnt from these sources. I have met (in all forms) dozens of the most interesting people who just happened to be somehow connected to cOTO. Where do you think Thelema should have evolved to? What would be better if there was no cOTO? In my opinion they are the one order that is the least elitist and that puts the biggest "All" in "the Law is for All". They seem to have dozens or hundreds of camps and oasises worldwide. Really, in the end it always seems to boil down to "they have the copyrights and the way they handle it is not to my liking" - but that has not very much to do with Thelema. So please, hawthornrussell, tell me why they don't help evolving Thelema or who would do it better. If you care.

Love=Law
Lutz


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the_real_simon_iff
(@the_real_simon_iff)
Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 1836
08/11/2006 9:20 pm  
"frater_cug" wrote:
Well it looks Crowley didn't think it was important. It seems he thought that the Vision and the Voice, The Amalantrah Working, The Paris Working, A Master of the Temple, etc... were sufficient otherwise I'll bet he would of published more of them.

93!

Maybe he would, maybe he couldn't. Who knows? In any case I am also interested in stuff that he didn't want to publish. It is very clear from the writing style that some of his diaries were for publication and some not, but since the man is now a part of history, I am just interested in that part. And I think it is very comforting to read them because it makes him very human. When I read The Paris Working or stuff like that it always has some "edited" feeling, his "real" diaries seem more - well, real.

"frater_cug" wrote:
And if we get down to the brass tacks if it is your Will to read the documents that have been removed, you will find them elsewhere. It just takes a bit of work.

Absolutely right!

"frater_cug" wrote:
In anycase, I personally detest the "Order Wars" that infects the entire occult community and this thread is really IMHO on the borderline. So I shall respectfully bow out of this conversation.

I agree heartily with that!

Love=Law
Lutz


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
08/11/2006 9:38 pm  

simon_iff wrote:

Me thinks I have literally hundreds or thousands of great books, great films and great music on my shelves that are somehow connected to cOTO.

Really? They must have a larger copyright clearance staff than I assumed for all of those to be cleared! Congratulations on having thousands of great books, music and film all connected with the COTO, and you must have a few others thrown in, that really makes my humble collection seem paltry by comparison.

nick, who's just going to give up collecting, you have me beat.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
08/11/2006 10:08 pm  

Thanks for your replies Lutz.

I apologise if it appears that my post is antagonistic. My reason for starting this thread was to get a better insight of the Caliphate from other people who are in a better position than myself to comment on it. Over the years from the material released to the world concerning Thelema in a modern evolved context has come from small groups like chaos groups like the Illuminates of Thanateros,and Nu Aeon Thelemic groups like the Maat-Horus Lodge ( Nema) .Their material has attempted to present Thelema in a different fashion with varying results , which is to be applauded and welcomed regardless of stance. But from my understanding and experience the caliphate hasnt been seen doing this.

So my take on this is , is that the magickal (Thelemic)current seems to be evolving amongst the smaller groups who are only concerned with the current's direction and manifestation of it. And who dont seem concerned with historical issues. So from this angle , this is why i put forward this poll/debate , so that the caliphate could be put forward in a robust open positive fashion. But some postings have been ....."awkward" on this debate .So would it be challenging for the leadership of the caliphate to claim they are a healthy vessel for the transmission of the Thelemic current , when the current has moved on to other more unorthodox Thelemic groups ?

So again i put forward the motion , has the work and efforts of the caliphate helped to evolve , manifest, direct, invogorate, and expand the Thelemic current for the benefit of us all?


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the_real_simon_iff
(@the_real_simon_iff)
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08/11/2006 10:47 pm  
"papanick" wrote:
nick, who's just going to give up collecting, you have me beat.

93, Nick!

Don't, because collecting is fun! And I did not want to brag about my oh so huge collection of books and stuff (also re-reading the post it sounds stupid, I admit), I just wanted to point out that a lot of this stuff is coming from people who are either in cOTO or somehow related or seem to be. I mean, Kenneth Anger made a lot of films, there are 14 wonderful and interesting Red Flame books, there are books about the A.A., about Magical Diaries, Ouija Boards, Tarot, I Ching which can all be somehow connected with cOTO. Not to forget music from Coil, Current 93 etc. There seems to be something about this order that many people I admire like. I am no member and I don't want to defence it. It just feels that sometimes a little cOTO-bashing comes quite easy - just what I meant with my US-comparison. It is just too subjective in my view to judge which of the orders evolved Thelema more.

Love=Law
Lutz

P.S. Un-cOTO stuff is mostly more worthy for collecting...


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
08/11/2006 11:41 pm  

Well, thanks Lutz, but I must point out that Anger hardly made "a lot" of films, although those he made were wonderful and quite influential. And those Red Flames were produced by a man who was rather unceremoniously expelled from COTO after decades of service to the Order.

It is interesting that HB has played with Coil, C93 and PTV too, but I think the connection there is more a mutual interest in Thelema than a full endorsement of COTO by Balance, Tibet and P'Orridge.

And as I've said in other posts, I am happy that COTO has been involved in keeping Crowley in print, BUT, and that's a big BUT, what would we have seen if COTO had not clutched the copyright so closely to its breast?

COTO bashing does come easy, when it seems like every time they take a public action in the Thelemic community they end up pulling a boner, IMO at least.

nick, whose book collection contains more Grant, Golden Dawn, Santeria, Voodoo and Eastern mysticism that COTO-connected material. Woe is me.

... added later: actually, when I take a closer look, I'd say the pre-COTO Crowley-related items on my shelves outnumber those bearing the COTO Seal of Approval. And many of the COTO items are just minor revisions or repackages of books that had already been issued by various publishing houses. Of course, I started collecting in about 1970, but even in those dark days, there seems to have been plenty of Crowley books to be found, if one searched dilligently. Go figure!


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the_real_simon_iff
(@the_real_simon_iff)
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Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 1836
09/11/2006 8:00 am  

93!

I agree heartily because as I said before, when it comes to critisizing cOTO it always ends up in that copyright thing. I am not able to judge how the spiritual evolvings in cOTO and all the groups that hawthornrussell mentioned might differ in detail, but I guess it is safe to say that it would be stupid to say this way to gnosis is better than that way. Alternative or unorthodox doesn't automatically translate to "better". Anyway, since I can't judge that I just wanted to point out that the Thelemic current has been evolved imho by cOTO also (evolving means spreading, developing, right?). A poll on which group is best would have been stupid and I thought it was not meant like this - maybe I am wrong. And by the way: All RedFlame books have been written while the makers were cOTO and of course I never wanted to say that all these hundred of items of mine (oh my Godess!) where fully endorsing cOTO philosophy, but they were defintely influenced (good or bad) and I think that counts as "helping evolving"...

I wish I started collecting in the 70ies!

Love=Law
Lutz


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4021
09/11/2006 9:10 am  
"hawthornrussell" wrote:
Has the caliphate helped to evolve the principles of Thelema?

I have a problem with the phrasing of this question. In my opinion, Thelema is a natural law like gravity, thermo-dynamics, etc. Surely it's our understanding of Thelema which evolves, not Thelema.

That aside, it's my view that the Caliphate O.T.O. have made a positive contribution; of course there's room for improvement, but it would be churlish not to recognise that they have played a part. Their methods are not for me - hardly surprising perhaps since I have been in the Typhonian O.T.O. for thirty years now - but I can still appreciate some positives.

Frater_cug referred to "Order wars" which he feels are poisoning the occult community. I recognise what he means, but consider that this is over-stating it somewhat. There are very few people contributing to the Lashtal forums who take entrenched, adversarial positions; by and large we have a positive, co-operative attitude. I have several friends who are long-standing members of the Caliphate O.T.O., and there is no antagonism between us.

The Caliphate O.T.O. does of course have issues with any other groups that use the name. This is well-known, the arguments for and against have been rehearsed a number of times, and I'm not going to go into them here. One day these issues won't matter any more, and the various O.T.O. groups will co-operate. The Lion will lie down with the Lamb; yea, with the Lamb.

๐Ÿ˜€


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frater_cug
(@frater_cug)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 73
09/11/2006 6:02 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
Frater_cug referred to "Order wars" which he feels are poisoning the occult community. I recognise what he means, but consider that this is over-stating it somewhat. There are very few people contributing to the Lashtal forums who take entrenched, adversarial positions; by and large we have a positive, co-operative attitude. I have several friends who are long-standing members of the Caliphate O.T.O., and there is no antagonism between us.

Just for the record. That was more of a general statement, and does not reflect my opinion of Lashtal, or the posters here.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
10/11/2006 4:13 pm  

Thanks for the replies chaps.

What i find curious is why over 50% of the posters disagreed with my question. I could quite easily argue that the caliphate is needed in a country like America to counter balance the extremism that seems to be manifesting at the moment there. But there seems to be a fair amount of you who perceive that the caliphate is not helping the current.

If that is the case what can be learnt from this?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
10/11/2006 6:57 pm  

Thanks for your reply wolf354.

Can you elaborate upon any of the points in your post?
Can you elaborate on the contributions of the Caliphate and their relevance to the evolution of the movement of Thelema?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
10/11/2006 11:04 pm  

A part of the phenomenon we are all touching upon, but not necessarily articulating would seem to me to revolve around that peculiar meme which causes its bearers to identify Thelema only as a singular, and particular magicoreligious expression, rather than the force of nature Mr. Staley illustrates elsewhere in the thread.

The source of such a peculiar meme, and its attendant behaviors is the phenomenon of Orthodoxos, or the tendency of all authentic movements to eventuate sects that aim, or serve to standardize, codify, and consolidate the meaning, praxis, and essence of the movement itself. Historically, the urge towards orthodoxy has without fail elicited three distinct expressions, which are โ€“ the formation of an entrenched hierarchy, the consolidation of control over the foundational documents of the movement, and the systematic suppression of all competing sects, (otherwise known as Hรฆresis).

Perhaps what surprises me most about this thread is that the notion of Aeons hasnโ€™t entered the discussion.

En To Pan!
Two Crows


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1846
10/11/2006 11:55 pm  

Two Crows-

I couldn't agree with you more regarding the fashion in which the "Orthodoxos" functions...no doubt Thelema itself has streams of the Great Current brancing off into both "Orthodoxos" and "Haeresis" (and subsequently, within Orders and Organizations which represent either of the above definitions). I do think your previous posts on "Aeonix" clearly has relevance to the phenomena but may I ask how you see it applying to the case at hand?

93

Kyle


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/11/2006 12:02 am  

Two_Crows wrote:

Orthodoxos, or the tendency of all authentic movements to eventuate sects that aim, or serve to standardize, codify, and consolidate the meaning, praxis, and essence of the movement itself. Historically, the urge towards orthodoxy has without fail elicited three distinct expressions, which are โ€“ the formation of an entrenched hierarchy, the consolidation of control over the foundational documents of the movement, and the systematic suppression of all competing sects, (otherwise known as Hรฆresis).

Very good points, Two_Crows, right on target! I ask the Caliphate: Is this your vision? Is there a Council of Wandering Bishops on the agenda that will codify what is the acceptable Thelemic Canon, and banish the heretics and Gnostics to the Cold Waste? Is there more to the obsession with Copyright Control than being good, upstanding, law-abiding citizens? Could it be that there is a broader agenda in mind?

These are just questions that come to my mind when I balance the concept "evolve" against words like "standardize, codify and consolidate"... can "suppression" be far behind?

nick the unorthodox


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/11/2006 12:45 am  

yeah...brings to mind how the catholic church murdered all those gnostic 'Cathars' at Montsegur Castle, France....they could not leave them alone could they?! ....they came in and burned them all!

....and you thought the occult path brings L.L.L.L.!!!!!....yeah right! ๐Ÿ˜ฏ


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