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Poll: Has the Caliphate helped to evolve Thelema?  

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 Anonymous
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11/11/2006 12:50 am  

No one expects the 'Spanish Inquisition' !!!


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 Anonymous
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11/11/2006 12:56 am  

I think the line is "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!" See here:
http://people.csail.mit.edu/paulfitz/spanish/script.html

I'm sure it will be in the Monty Python vein!

"Biggles! Fetch...THE CUSHIONS!"


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 Anonymous
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11/11/2006 1:37 am  
"papanick" wrote:
I think the line is "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!" See here:
http://people.csail.mit.edu/paulfitz/spanish/script.html

IThanks for correction, Papanick.
It's old age , you see and too many nights felling trees, just like my dear old ma !!!


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empiricus
(@empiricus)
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11/11/2006 2:29 am  

"Thelema is a natural law like gravity, thermo-dynamics, etc. Surely it's our understanding of Thelema which evolves, not Thelema." Spot on for me. What is and does Go...this is important, not petty minded polls about who has done more or less for this or that. What am I doing is the real question. All organisations will converge, and the outcome somethimg entirely beyond them. What we seek is already inside us, already against the grain and seeking to prepare us for what is to come...to be more than human.

All the best...


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 Anonymous
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11/11/2006 2:49 am  

Its odd reading this thread.
For someone like me who is over fifty and remembers the hippy dippy times.
Back then it was all about turning on, tuning in, fighting "The Man", in other words anyone trying to restrict freedom. You can read this sort of stuff in some of the older books by R.A.Wilson. All goverments become paranoid and want censorship and so on.
Back then people thought of the O.T.O. as part of the resistance. Now it seems that they have become "The Man".
All revolutionary movements end up as dictatorships. This seems to be a historical law.
Of course Thelema will survive and flourish but propbably in small groups away from the internet and and as a method of self development rather than a group .
Best Wishes Robert.
I don't want to get into that "whose O.T.O. is the real one" business its driven more people away from Thelema than probably any other issue.


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empiricus
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11/11/2006 3:11 am  

The last post is spot on again for me. What they all were and what they are today and all those within them and without them have contributed to the evolution of Thelema. But Thelema is not them. It is an odd thread to have started from many points of view. What unites us is far more interesting, what we ourselves do, far more relevant: "I don't want to get into that "whose O.T.O. is the real one" business its driven more people away from Thelema than probably any other issue." The (C)OTO at times behaves like an American based international, global corporation. But is that it and all it was or will be? What is its current membership thinking and doing? Other groups? AA? Inspiration beyond any organisation? My question would not be about the COTO or OTO or any other OTO but about what people are actually doing to give expression to the 93 current. Seems to me that many good people in all the Thelemic community vehicles have made some astonishing contributiond to the survival and evolution of Thelema.

All the best...


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 Anonymous
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11/11/2006 3:33 am  

rabrazier wrote:

All revolutionary movements end up as dictatorships. This seems to be a historical law.

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
And I get on my knees and pray...
WE DON'T GET FOOLED AGAIN!"

Who wrote that?

certainly not nick


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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11/11/2006 3:43 am  

Wow-! I think this thread is actually raising the Spirit of Thelema!

My question would not be about the COTO or OTO or any other OTO but about what people are actually doing to give expression to the 93 current.

I spoke with a COTO member YEARS ago who was on the fall-out with the Organization back then. And he simply said "What IS the OTO? It's ME-and its YOU..." I wasn't a member of ANY group at the time. But his point was wonderful. The issue of copyright has extended, not just to texts and such, but the "Ownership of the NAME Itself." Yet all it takes is that Mystic Realization that YOU are, in fact, the OTO...membership in AN "OTO" should be an expression of this fact.

No one on Earth can monopolize the Souls of the Free. And those Souls should follow the Path burning with Will, wherever it goes! As Two Crows mentioned on some other thread, I think, "Follow Your Bliss" is a profound Mantram and may also express the same thing as Do What Thou Wilt!

In doing so (and I'm smiling HUGE at some the posts above here) talk of "Us vs. Them" is giving way to the ferocious Joy of Will!

I personally feel that groups, be they small Power Cells or larger organized entities CAN exist to further this energy, this life...I'm all for friendly relations, mutual acknowledgement, support, cooperation...

Again, this is the Way Thelema will really become a force to be reckoned with on the Planet! Crowley himself observed how the Aeon emerged in catastrophic events, which of course continue to this second...it's the Current smashing up against the hardened "Old Ways" of doing things...there are clearly issues that split Thelemic Hearts of Fire-and maybe the Key here is to come forth and look at how these problems can be overcome...what's at the heart of it?

God knows we're smart enough to do this. Why don't we?


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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11/11/2006 3:56 am  

As for why we don't, there are many reasons that exist within the Aeon or more appropriately, in this century concerning the inginuity gap and the pressing times we live in (due to technological advance and the industrial age). I think we feel boxed in by a more advanced scenario unlike ever witnessed 100 - 150 years ago or anytime in History. Unfortunately, mentally the boxing in we are subjected to (socially) tends to manifest in our spiritual disconnection and a lack of fruition to a more common ends or at least mutual understanding and cooperation. We don't cooperate because we're all ego. It's also part human condition which is why we study Thelema, a lot of us, to help surpass the lack of Love and conscious Will. There was a book written once by a man named Richard Dawkins just 4 years after I was born. I've heard of this book almost all of my life and it saw a revival when I was in my teens. The name has always stuck for obvious reasons. If I'm jumping to conclusions saying it's obvious, pm me.

Anyway, here are our obstacles, now let's ask how we can overcome, or if we can. I think it's a transmutation thath appens individually and that is why group work tends to be a point of difficulty as we see with Crowley and many of his endevours. Not every one is at the same points though I agree with you Kyle that we all need to hang onto each other a little tighter. Or maybe we need to have a better grasp of ourselves to make true unity tangible.

Peace, Love and Empathy - Kurt Cobain

Take Care All and a 93,

Vi.


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kidneyhawk
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11/11/2006 4:40 am  

maybe we need to have a better grasp of ourselves to make true unity tangible

I think this about says it all.


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 Anonymous
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11/11/2006 5:40 am  

You guys are so Christian and Doomlike!

Silly little peas think they need to be back in the pod!


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 Anonymous
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11/11/2006 7:36 am  

Some of you are way off topic. The Aeon issue is a separate post/thread in its own right. If the Aeon issue is included in this thread , how would it apply to the caliphate?


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 Anonymous
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11/11/2006 9:17 am  
"papanick" wrote:
Very good points, Two_Crows, right on target! I ask the Caliphate: Is this your vision? Is there a Council of Wandering Bishops on the agenda that will codify what is the acceptable Thelemic Canon, and banish the heretics and Gnostics to the Cold Waste? Is there more to the obsession with Copyright Control than being good, upstanding, law-abiding citizens? Could it be that there is a broader agenda in mind?

These are just questions that come to my mind when I balance the concept "evolve" against words like "standardize, codify and consolidate"... can "suppression" be far behind?

Suppression needn’t always be so plain as roving inquisitors, or fag-strewn stakes. Sometimes it’s a matter of just how our opinions on a given topic were formulated.

The Caliphate’s vision is openly available, from the inception onwards to a public statement made within a year or so ago, and echoed almost verbatim throughout many national body websites. For me the fair use quotes of note are as follows:

From Liber LII Manifesto of the O.T.O.
“The aims of the O.T.O. can only be understood fully by its highest initiates…”

“The authority of the O.T.O. is concentrated in the O.H.O. (Outer Head of the Order), or Frater Superior…”

From O.T.O. US Grand Lodge Program Synopsis
“To preserve and advance the principles and practices of the religious, philosophical, and magical system of Thelema…”

From O.T.O. US Grand Lodge Vision Statement
“We envision OTO USA as a model religious and fraternal order of occult initiates, and a leading proponent of Thelemic thought and culture…”

More concerning exactly what I’m on about below, and… um…”Cardinal Fang! Fetch...THE COMFY CHAIR!”

"kidneyhawk" wrote:
No one on Earth can monopolize the Souls of the Free. And those Souls should follow the Path burning with Will, wherever it goes! As Two Crows mentioned on some other thread, I think, "Follow Your Bliss" is a profound Mantram and may also express the same thing as Do What Thou Wilt!

In doing so (and I'm smiling HUGE at some the posts above here) talk of "Us vs. Them" is giving way to the ferocious Joy of Will!

For the record what I’m on about has so much less to do with any sort of “Us vs. Them,” “Order War,” or hitting any sort of “cOTO punching bag,” than it does illustrating a phenomenon reasonably universal to all magicoreligious movements throughout history. As others have mentioned, and I wholly concur, there are fine people, fine works, and a certain utility to be found in many orders, the Caliphate included. Likewise as many orders may have bad apples, bad policies, and an accrual of bad press, undeserved, and otherwise. How that bad press reflects on those self-identifying as Thelemites, regardless of membership status, or potential Thelemites is most certainly of their concern, and will not go away no matter how hard anyone wishes it to.

Only in cases of outright bloody tyranny would I deign to support the removal of any body from existence, including the RCC itself! I do, on the other hand, lend my efforts, and energies to the balances of influence most in accordance with my own nature, and abilities, just as we all do.

"Vilaven" wrote:
Anyway, here are our obstacles, now let's ask how we can overcome, or if we can. I think it's a transmutation that happens individually and that is why group work tends to be a point of difficulty as we see with Crowley and many of his endevours. Not every one is at the same points though I agree with you Kyle that we all need to hang onto each other a little tighter. Or maybe we need to have a better grasp of ourselves to make true unity tangible.
"zardoz" wrote:
I think evolution of the current will come from individuals, not from organizations. That could reflect my bias against organizations and their administrative politics.

Now, these quotes above, and others like them in the thread are getting to the point, as I see it.

Individual transformation, individual meaning, and individual realization of Will are without doubt, or question balanced against all sorts of groupthink, infectious consensual realities, and insidious methods for making Proles of the unsuspecting, and sincerely seeking. It’s a fact of nature that the more visible, and charismatic occult “ego packages,” to borrow a phrase from Zardoz, are not only more apt to make memorable contributions, but also deeper gravity wells from which we must escape in order to arrive at that place where we may utter our own Word. Joseph Campbell called this the difference between the Shaman, and the Priest. Whereas the Priest serves to perpetuate the second-hand religious experiences of others through the catena of Religion, the Shaman by nature MUST seek, and have their own religious experiences.

To state it as bluntly as I can, full well knowing that mine is not a popular opinion, I can think of no greater obstacle to having one’s own authentic spiritual experiences than being saddled with the conceptual fixation that Thelema is ONLY a category of religion, philosophy, or system of magic(k), of which Aleister Crowley is the sole valid source, commentator, or Master. In my least humble opinion the greatest obstacle to evolving our understanding, and experience of Thelema is the cult of personality most pejoratively, and rightly called “Crowleyanity.” Those so in awe of the man, or his work, as to practically worship him, or see him as any more human, or godlike than they see themselves are far more apt to promulgate bondage than freedom.

It would seem to me that as a category of religion, philosophy, or system of magic(k) only, Thelema may well be the greatest occult blind of them all.

"hawthornrussell" wrote:
Some of you are way off topic. The Aeon issue is a separate post/thread in its own right. If the Aeon issue is included in this thread , how would it apply to the caliphate?
"kidneyhawk" wrote:
I do think your previous posts on "Aeonix" clearly has relevance to the phenomena but may I ask how you see it applying to the case at hand?

I can’t disagree with Aeonix being material for a separate thread, but it just seemed to me that discussions of evolution, and Thelema would naturally wind up in Aeonix. On the pedestrian side of the notion one might wonder why such phrases as “Osirian Courtes,” the “Old Aeon” etc. might not have shown up in the discussion.

To answer your questions, I would say that the “Osirian” tendencies expressed in the “Orthodoxos Phenomenon” surrounding Thelema, as typified by urges towards hierarchial structures, superiority/inferiority relationships, tabula rosa teaching of set curricula, valuing religious catena over personal spritual experiences, the respect of persons, titles, and offices, and the codification, and profuse quoting of other’s scriptures over personal revelations, all stem directly from Crowley’s experiences under the thumb of the Plymouth Brethren, involvement with Co-Masonry, and the fact that he himself was a child of the Aeon of Osiris.

En To Pan!
Two Crows


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kidneyhawk
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11/11/2006 11:48 am  

Some of you are way off topic. The Aeon issue is a separate post/thread in its own right. If the Aeon issue is included in this thread , how would it apply to the caliphate?

HawthorneRussell-I've personally tried to avoid the "Old Aeon" finger pointing, as I feel it's become an easy pot-shot pigeon-holing and not really a productive assessement of the NATURE of things...but further remarks, you are correct, belong on another thread.

Also: Kudos to you for your style in leading these type of "debates" on the site. Some of the "off topic" material above really is worthy of further discussion as well as it's of great relevance to the whole "Thelemic Culture." If its representative of others who may be silent on the matter, I think we're seeing an increase in desire for Personal Gnosis ouside of Restraining Contexts. This, I believe, is the Energy of the Aeon Itself.

Now, theoretically, the various Thelemic Orders should be means of assisting with this process. Two Crows (above) hit it very hard when he wrote

the Priest serves to perpetuate the second-hand religious experiences of others through the catena of Religion, the Shaman by nature MUST seek, and have their own religious experiences.

To assemble a unity of those who embrace Thelema (which is itself an EVOLVING Current) is to somehow meet the needs of Unity as it tends towards growth and change not simply well-defined units that can "fit" nicely in stasis.

Is there anyone here who is a member of the Caliphate Order who might offer some words regarding this in the context of the that Order's Vision and Work?


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 Anonymous
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11/11/2006 1:11 pm  

Two_Crows wrote:

To state it as bluntly as I can, full well knowing that mine is not a popular opinion, I can think of no greater obstacle to having one’s own authentic spiritual experiences than being saddled with the conceptual fixation that Thelema is ONLY a category of religion, philosophy, or system of magic(k), of which Aleister Crowley is the sole valid source, commentator, or Master. In my least humble opinion the greatest obstacle to evolving our understanding, and experience of Thelema is the cult of personality most pejoratively, and rightly called “Crowleyanity.” Those so in awe of the man, or his work, as to practically worship him, or see him as any more human, or godlike than they see themselves are far more apt to promulgate bondage than freedom.

I am in full agreement, with two snaps up and a twist!

You know, I think Paul deserves a standing ovation for allowing this site, although the vehicle of the Aleister Crowley Society, to be such an OPEN forum on all things Thelemic, including criticism of Old Crow and the template he left us for Thelema. It could easily have become a site dedicated to only Crowley Worship; in fact, when I first glanced at it, that's what I thought it was and didn't think it would be of much use to me. Then I started checking out the contents and reading the Forums, and my eyes were opened. Thank you, Paul, for allowing the Spirit of Thelema to flow unrestricted (so far as is in your power) through this internet Portal.

My spiritual growth really started when I began to look beyond what Crowley outlined as the curriculum of AA and OTO -- Golden Dawn-inspired Magick and Indian hatha/jnana/bhakta Yoga -- and delved into areas Crowley was not thoroughly schooled in: African-based magicks and Chinese yogic practices (thank you and a tip o' the hat to Kenneth Grant for that inspiration). I think that, as monumental as Crowley's contribution was, and the unestimable value of his "Science of Religion" approach, we are only cheating ourselves when we don't acknowledge and learn from the many other Teachers who have come after Crowley and expanded/developed what he started. Crowley made a good start in uniting Eastern and Western mysticism into a working system, but it was only a start, and look at how much information we have today on Indian Tantra, Santeria, Kundalini Yoga, Voodoo, Taoist Yoga and the various Chinese and Japanese martial/energy arts, Zen and Tibetan Tantra, not to mention the real pioneers of the use of chemical agents for spiritual development, such as Timothy Leary, Terence McKenna, and even creators of new tools for consciousness expansion, like Dr. John Lilly and his isolation tank.

Thelemic organizations do need our support because they earth the Current, but they should never be immune from criticism or resistant to Change. Really the Caliphate has taken on a thankless job, that of building a strong foundation on Earth for the survival and development of Thelema in the future, and because of the nature of that Work, maybe they cannot put the evolution of Thelema at the forefront of their activities. That is a job for people both inside and outside Thelema's most public Order.

nick


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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11/11/2006 1:40 pm  
"papanick" wrote:
You know, I think Paul deserves a standing ovation for allowing this site, although the vehicle of the Aleister Crowley Society, to be such an OPEN forum on all things Thelemic, including criticism of Old Crow and the template he left us for Thelema. It could easily have become a site dedicated to only Crowley Worship; in fact, when I first glanced at it, that's what I thought it was and didn't think it would be of much use to me. Then I started checking out the contents and reading the Forums, and my eyes were opened. Thank you, Paul, for allowing the Spirit of Thelema to flow unrestricted (so far as is in your power) through this internet Portal.

Thank to you, too, Nick, especially for your willingness to inject some much needed humour into the Forums when things become unpleasant or pompous.

For what it's worth, my personal opinion is that LAShTAL.COM achieves its objectives more frequently than it fails to achieve them. On occasions there are errors: my having made available some texts that contravene applicable legislation and, more importantly, that failed to take due cognisance of the feelings of surviving family members, for example.

On the whole, though, I'd like to think that LAShTAL.COM provides a source of information that was sorely lacking when I began my research into Crowley and his legacy all those years ago. And it also provides an environment in which prominent members of all the significant organisations and special interest groups feel comfortable to gather and discuss, knowing that inappropriate remarks will be tackled head-on by Ian and myself.

This thread is actually a good example of the best of LAShTAL.COM: a potentially very contentious question has been discussed with maturity and sophistication by people with widely divergent views.

So thanks to you, Nick, for your kind remarks, and thanks to all of you for helping to make LAShTAL.COM what it is, whatever that might really be!

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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 Anonymous
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11/11/2006 9:52 pm  

It's 'Beat the old boss, same as the new boss'.
Touche, mon ami.

JeanS.

Thinkquote="papanick"]rabrazier wrote:

All revolutionary movements end up as dictatorships. This seems to be a historical law.

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
And I get on my knees and pray...
WE DON'T GET FOOLED AGAIN!"

Who wrote that?

certainly not nick


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 Anonymous
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11/11/2006 9:59 pm  

JohnS wrote:

It's 'Beat the old boss, same as the new boss'.
Touche, mon ami.

JeanS

Thanks, I like that even better! 😆


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kidneyhawk
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12/11/2006 4:59 am  

I am hopeful that members who represent the COTO will not feel inclined to avoid this thread. There is a strong critical undertone and this may be read in my own posts. However, all posts thus far feel like an "outside" discussion. Official COTO business is obviously not going to be aired on this thread but if any members or representatives are moved to address the issues and concerns thus far raised, I believe it should contribute to the dialogue and treated with respect. As members of Lashtal, I think we all bottom line a genuine interest and engagement with the works of AC and the Heart of Thelema. Even at the point of what may seem like intense conflict, I personally feel that within that is the potential for a great unity, even between two individuals. "Us" and "Them" is not an angle I personally wish to take...it is quite evident that I am not of COTO persuasion yet I see much in that Order which I feel is of great value and have an affection for certain members and their contributions to the Great Work. EMPIRICUS wrote some wonderful things above and I have to honor those realities as they manifest in Individuals. We all have our own styles and inclinations and agendas. But we who accept in our flesh and soul the LAW should be fully able to embrace each other with a heartfelt Namaste. In the Lon Milo thread, it's clear that I enjoy and have been inspired by his work. James Wasserman is another who I really like. I've just about beaten the hell out of my copy of his "AC and the Practice of the Magickal Diary" and may actually need to buy a second copy. I think ALL magicians from the Novice to the Adept can gain from his Introduction to AC and Achad's Diaires.

This whole thread emphasizes to me that the Current is Real and Alive and we are all pursuing it to the best of our ability.

93, Sorors and Fraters.

Kyle


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 Anonymous
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12/11/2006 8:35 am  

I don't think your going to get anyone who will represent this so called 'COTO', whatever that may be.

What many refer to as the COTO do so in legal ignorance. For all intents and purposes legally it is 'the' O.T.O. Anyone who has any contest to this need only read Equinox III:10. Of course, everyone seems stuck on this internet thing perpetually, like zombies wandering from block to block looking for the next brain to eat.

Unnnggghhh! More knowledge! Piss on Understanding!

But really, if everyone in the Thelemic community is so desirous of unity in our aims, why not join the O.T.O.? The 'legal' one. Whats the real difference here except as it relates to actual business? We can then go about our business in business fashion, like this O.T.O. has done. To get things done requires discipline. Structure. Integrity. And the occasional buggering of Horus' Eye.

Just kidding.

If one is unable to renounce an ounce, one's gain is vain.

Whoa! Take a look at this would you!:

"To return for a moment to that question of Secrecy: there is no rule to prohibit you from quoting against me such of my brighter remarks as "Mystery is the enemy of Truth;" but, for one thing, I am, and always have been, the leader of the Extreme Left in the Council-Chamber of the City of the Pyramids, so that if I acquiesce at all in the system of the O.T.O. so far as the "secret of secrets" of the IX° is concerned, it is really on a point of personal honour. My pledge given to the late Frater Superior and O.H.O., Dr. Theodor Reuss. For all that, in this particular instance it is beyond question a point of common prudence, both because the abuse of the Secret is, at least on the surface, so easy and so tempting, and because, if it became a matter of general knowledge the Order itself might be in danger of calumny and persecution; for the secret is even easier to misinterpret that to profane.

Lege! Judica! Tace!"

-Magick without Tears


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 Anonymous
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12/11/2006 10:50 pm  

Thanks for your reply KCh.

Your post was off topic. Can you give an example of how the Caliphate have helped the movement of Thelema , without bringing up the issue of legal paperwork. (which is not relevant to the Current.)


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 Anonymous
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13/11/2006 12:11 am  

Thanks for your reply wolf354.

I think hinder is a strong word here. To suggest that the Thelemic current is hindered or restricted because of the caliphate's action (or lack of) is a non-starter. It would imply a degree of control over the current. It could not be argued that the caliphate controls the current. No one group can or could .From a magickal slant its usually the other way around , the current would dictate and direct the practioner. The Current goes where it can manifest regardless of titles and material "control".

But you have hit the nail on the head. I can't say if the caliphate have hindered the movement of Thelema , and this is why i have posted the motion , in the spirit of debate. To find if there is a clear answer. There are other magickal Thelemic groups out there who are riding the current and travelling in so many different directions and publishing the work and material for all to see ( A'la Maat-Horus lodge , IOT , Typhonian ,) that it gives the appearance that there is "inertia" surrounding the direction of the caliphate.


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 Anonymous
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 Anonymous
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13/11/2006 12:31 am  

I just noticed this from the above link:

Publisher: Ahab Music Co., Inc.
1707 Grand Avenue
Nashville, TN 37212

Do you suppose Motta was behind this?

Q


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 Anonymous
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13/11/2006 2:56 am  

I was responding to kidneyhawks post, not really the entire topic at hand.

Does that count as off-topic? Or should I point out that you yourself are now going off topic? Does it really matter?

I am not this so called 'Caliphate', so I cannot give you any examples of how whatever it is your referring to has 'helped' Thelema. I don't think Thelema needs help. Its there to help us more than anything.

I am not the O.T.O., but an individual involved in an order of like-minded people. I have my relative view-points, they have theirs. Just because someone is my brother or sister doesn't mean they are my lovers and best friends. It would be the most absurd thing for me to speak for an entire order.

Personally, I think this order has been true to its goals and aims. One of which is the promulgation of the Law of Thelema. Note the word 'promulgate'. I take this in the sense that the Law of Thelema is to be declared through action. I don't know nor care what anyone's Will may be, but only see to it that such Will is allowed its fulfillment in light, life, love, and liberty.

The whole question of this thread seems similar to such questions as 'Has the Universe helped to evolve itself?' or 'Has Johnny helped to evolve the rotting of his teeth?'


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kidneyhawk
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13/11/2006 3:59 am  

The Current goes where it can manifest regardless of titles and material "control".

Off topic or not, this is a great statement. And I think the number of votes tallied above are perhaps less important than the many angles from which folks have expressed their reactions to the oringal question.

Although I asked respectfully if anyone involved in the Caliphate would offer some input, I'm tending to agree with KCh that this is most unlikely to happen. Regarding joining the OTO (American/Caliphate) to promote Unity, all I can say is: it's not my WILL!

As much as I value Ritual Workings, Allegoric Initiations and many other avenues of pursuit which the Caliphate embodies, I don't perceive this to be an Organization which has adequate elbow room for the Heterodoxy. The situation is similar to the Catholic Church and the Gnostics-The Emperor Constantine needed to unify the religion of the people to assume functional control over it. Individual Sovereignty and the Emergence of New Revelation just wasn't going to jive with this program. Hence, Mystics were massacred.

I DO feel that it is possible for Organizations to exist which DO allow for its members to pursue their True Will. I also feel that this is most likely to manifest in specialized Groups whose agenda and appeal will be the Will of the people so drawn.

With the baseline of Thelema, however, I think friendly and supportive communications and mutual acknowledgement is Key to the Promulgation of the Real Energy of Thelema on the Planet. Again, refering to KCh's post, not everyone is going to be a "friend" or "lover" but we can certainly connect on the periphery in a fashion that is mutually beneficial-and beneficial to the Current.

I personally think THIS would constitute an action that supports the Evolution of the Current.

If the Policies of Organizations don't allow for this, we are certainly free as Thelemites to behave in relation to one another in a fashion that expresses this. Namaste. The God in me recognizes the God in you-even if we stand in seperate pantheons.

I don't know where this thread can go from here. I think it's WE who must GO.

Nothing left but 93!

Kyle


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/11/2006 4:46 am  

Isn't this all simple really?
If you are conservative join the caliphate.
If you like new ideas join the Typhonians.
If you are a loner and don't want to join a group then you may have trouble in obtaining some of the documents that you need for spiritual development.
Since I fall into the last group my only complaint against the current copyright owners is that they have not put enough new material into the public domain. The rehashes of old titles are ok for beginners but I would like to see something new, diary material in particular.
However I don't think there is any point in finger pointing as if someone other than the caliphate had obtained the copyrights would they have been any more forth coming? I doubt it since the market for Crowley material is small. Perhaps the best thing is to hope for more publications by small press's such as the people who published Crowleys 1930's diaries earlier in the year.
Best Wishes Robert.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/11/2006 12:53 pm  

First, I think this whole premise is ridiculous....as if somehow altering the presentation of Thelema consciously at a group level is somehow more vital than becoming a Thelemite and personally expressing yourself.

Why don't buildings matter? Why don't the number of members matter? Why doesn't the amount of information disseminated matter? Show me another Thelemic organization that can hold a candle to the OTO.

You know some groups that have "evolved" Thelema? Great..awesome. Now, show me how many of those groups have never heard of the OTO, never read any books or online information disseminated by the OTO, and never received any knowledge of Thelema from the OTO.

Yeah...that's what I thought...

Carry on.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/11/2006 2:26 pm  

You know some groups that have "evolved" Thelema? Great..awesome. Now, show me how many of those groups have never heard of the OTO, never read any books or online information disseminated by the OTO, and never received any knowledge of Thelema from the OTO.

Yeah...that's what I thought...

Carry on.

Calm down there ya little keyboard cowboy. My God you're all a squirrely bunch.

Show me another Thelemic organization that can hold a candle to the OTO.

I have NOTHING against the cO.T.O and I will respect your opinion however you have but to open your eyes and educate yourself to beable answer this question, and it CAN be answered and IS answered all the time. This is NOT my way of saying that the cO.T.O has done nothing to further Thelema but only my way of expressing the fact that there ARE other O.T.O's that DO hold a candle to the Caliphate.

And let me reiterate, I AM not saying anything negitive about the cO.T.O. Only that it is VERY tiring to sign on to Lashtal and have to read MORE agruments about whose O.T.O is better.

93
Kym


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/11/2006 4:32 pm  

Hello all,

Personally I agree that the original thread premise is flawed in that Thelema cannot be evolved, only attained, then expressed.

To a certain extent, this is turning into a tautological argument. Some posters use OTO and Thelema almost interchangeably, in which case obviously only OTO is advancing/evolving/promulgating Thelema, which in turn is advanced/etc by everything OTO does. Reminds me of Mr LaVey's assertion that Satanism (with a capital S) began with the Church of Satan, because all previous groups didn't conform to his definition of the term.

This could be important: on the TAOLEMA thread, the subject of 'superceding' formulae was discussed. Now if Thelema is so radically different in practice from other formulae, including tantra, tao, zen, dzogchen etc, then Mr Crowley's disciples and heirs (however that is defined) should be synonymous with the current, if they are up to it. If however Thelema is a particular expression of a unversal attainment, culturally and personally filtered, and if parallels with other currents are identified, then the question of ownership seems limited at best.

Which only serves to shift the terms of this never ending argument elsewhere.....

oh well.....

(Don't ask what OTO is doing for you, rather ask what you are doing for Thelema)
😉


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1850
13/11/2006 5:04 pm  

Hyperion-your post in wonderful! LOL-and 'nuff said!

93

Kyle


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/11/2006 5:57 pm  
"adonia444" wrote:
I have NOTHING against the cO.T.O and I will respect your opinion however you have but to open your eyes and educate yourself to beable answer this question, and it CAN be answered and IS answered all the time. This is NOT my way of saying that the cO.T.O has done nothing to further Thelema but only my way of expressing the fact that there ARE other O.T.O's that DO hold a candle to the Caliphate.

And I'm saying if you're going to insinuate other groups have somehow "evolved" Thelema (whatever that means) and are somehow responsible for the evolution of Thelema while the OTO isn't, then I'm saying show me a pseudo-OTO body or any thelemic body that does not owe at least part of its thelemic education to the OTO.

In other words, they wouldn't be out there doing crap if it wasn't for the OTO publishing and disseminating information. As far as evolving Thelema, what would you have it evolve into? A biped? A chicken? Some other religion? Fantasies about aliens? Oh...sorry...someone has already done that one...


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4053
13/11/2006 7:23 pm  
"knight_of_Pan" wrote:
And I'm saying if you're going to insinuate other groups have somehow "evolved" Thelema (whatever that means) and are somehow responsible for the evolution of Thelema while the OTO isn't, then I'm saying show me a pseudo-OTO body or any thelemic body that does not owe at least part of its thelemic education to the OTO.

Yes, I would agree that the O.T.O. as founded at the beginning of the 20th Century by Reuss and colleagues has been extremely influential on the various groups that it has spawned across the years, many of which continue to operate to the present day, whether under the same name or something different.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/11/2006 7:37 pm  
"knight_of_Pan" wrote:
First, I think this whole premise is ridiculous....as if somehow altering the presentation of Thelema consciously at a group level is somehow more vital than becoming a Thelemite and personally expressing yourself.

I couldn’t agree more with this notion. Interestingly, though, some of the people who have done just as you suggest include in their expressions an aversion to calling any organizational orthodox body “Thelema.”

"knight_of_Pan" wrote:
Why don't buildings matter? Why don't the number of members matter? Why doesn't the amount of information disseminated matter? Show me another Thelemic organization that can hold a candle to the OTO.

I would assert that Thelema is not buildings, membership counts, OR the dissemination of information. Personally, I don’t think it is formalized rituals, progressive initiations, or grade structures either. As to candlepower comparisons, I’d have to contend that any conclusions arrived at are a matter of opinion. Sadly, in common parlance opinions have been compared to a particular orifice, and not surprisingly the holders of various opinions are often compared to that orifice as well.

As I’ve mentioned elsewhere the confusion of Thelema with a religion, philosophy, or system of magic(k) is a part of the issue. Evidently, it is also confused with clerk house business, and legal findings. As I understand it Thelema was accepted by the OTO, and not the other way around, and that itself following a change of “management.”

"knight_of_Pan" wrote:
You know some groups that have "evolved" Thelema? Great..awesome. Now, show me how many of those groups have never heard of the OTO, never read any books or online information disseminated by the OTO, and never received any knowledge of Thelema from the OTO.

Yeah...that's what I thought...

Again, we’re back to the comparison game. No one would agree on the same list.

En To Pan!
Two Crows


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/11/2006 11:06 pm  

Just so no one is confused.

I am not debating over the historical issues of the "OTO" and its legitimacy. I am debating the caliphate's presentation of ( or lack of) new material to the Thelemic community , which would be a reflection of its continued growth and development. With regard to Knight of Pan's post , its difficult to debate over the blanket term "OTO" since there are several. (Which is a thread in its own right). My post is on the caliphate ,and its actions ( or lack of.)


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
14/11/2006 2:56 am  
"hawthornrussell" wrote:
With regard to Knight of Pan's post , its difficult to debate over the blanket term "OTO" since there are several.

It's not a blanket term. There is one organization that holds that name legally. There is no organization that holds the name cOTO or whatever you wish to call it. How about we use the terms OTO and pseudo-OTOs to differentiate. Would that make it easier for you?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
14/11/2006 3:42 am  

"It's not a blanket term. There is one organization that holds that name legally."

Well, the problem is that other orgs are either not as clever or as vicious as you are, depending on ones outlook. It would be amazingly easy to trademark all sorts of emblems in countries other than the US and one would have a perfectly legal OTO in that country. However, apparantly no one bothered so I guess the organisation you belong to is the only one who seems to think it's important to be a monopolist.

As to the people who dislike order discussions - what happened to 'as brother fight ye' - does that have any meaning to you guys or is this really just another friendly thelemic tea club?

Martijn


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
14/11/2006 3:51 am  
"hawthornrussell" wrote:
Just so no one is confused.

I am not debating over the historical issues of the "OTO" and its legitimacy. I am debating the caliphate's presentation of ( or lack of) new material to the Thelemic community , which would be a reflection of its continued growth and development. quote]

Now, that is of course plain nonsense. Any monkey could republish
prefab works with some new footnotes. To see that as a sign of 'growth and development' is so naieve it's ridiculous.

If you want to discuss the greatness of any club then there's no option but to compare the quality of the membership. Like one would do with any soccer team - who has the best players? Guys who whine about discussions like these probably don't like soccer anyway. So, get it on. Who are your best players?

Martijn


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
14/11/2006 4:25 am  

Well, members of the "Caliphate" OTO have produced innovative material, look at Frater W.I.T.'s book on Enochian Self-Initiation, that's some heavy material that tells the tale of the author's personal journey through the spaces of Dee's aethers from the perspective of a Thelemite. That's an interesting and unique work, he's got an enochian reworking of Liber Samekh in the back that's really interesting.


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Proteus
(@proteus)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 243
14/11/2006 4:26 am  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

what happened to 'as brother fight ye' - does that have any meaning to you guys or is this really just another friendly thelemic tea club?

Well, there has been some discussion about the merits of earl grey (gray) as of late...I guess we're really just another friendly tea club...cheers

John (cos I drinks a bit...)

Love is the law, love under will.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
14/11/2006 9:50 am  

Thanks for the reply krishnahermes.

I havent read Frater WIT's Book. I'll do a nosy on it. (Whether or not Enochian studies is Thelemic is a shaky assertion...) Can anyone else on the forum suggest books by caliphate members which are new , fresh , and innovative?

With regard to the legal issues. They are not relevant to this thread. I am focusing on the caliphate's contribution to new innovative material to the Thelemic current. There is a separate thread which deals with legal stuff. Use that thread.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
14/11/2006 12:33 pm  

Hello Hawthornrussell,

"Can anyone else on the forum suggest books by caliphate members which are new, fresh, and innovative?"

With respect, after about 100 replies and 3000 odd viewings, it doesn't look likely that anyone will (for whatever reason, and I won't jump to conclusions...)

"...not relevant to this thread. I am focusing ... separate thread ... Use that thread"

You have done a good, if strict, job at moderating this thread. 🙂
Maybe you can wrap it up with a conclusion, or offer us your insights on the subject after all this input. (You can put away your 'off topic/evasive/not relevant' bashing stick too! 😀 )

Love
Hxxx


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Cronus
(@cronus)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 24
14/11/2006 12:41 pm  

In response to "Can anyone else on the forum suggest books by caliphate members which are new , fresh , and innovative?"

When I first saw this thread a while back I instantly voted for "Yes". It was a pretty quick and easy question for me to respond to - "Has the Caliphate helped to evolve Thelema?" or "Has the Caliphate helped promulgate Thelema?" Immediately I thought to myself, "absolutely!" Living in the US and being so new to Thelema, I immediately thought of names like DuQuette and Hymenaeus Beta, realizing that I probably wouldn't be interested in Thelema and probably wouldn't even be responding to this forum post/question since I wouldn't have even came across this website or had been interested in Crowley/Thelema if it wasn't for not only the many great books I've read to get me to this point by the people whos names I previously mentioned. Also, when I first became interested in Crowley/Thelema I searched for a local O.T.O. group and came across the "US Grand Lodge, O.T.O. Main Page" which then linked me to a local body of the O.T.O.'s website. Since that time I've came across so much useful info from those websites alone, read the suggested books, by authors such as Lon Milo DuQuette - whos books are "new, fresh, innovative" and alone warrant a "yes" response to the question this thread poses, in my opinion of course!

In all honesty, it's a silly question to begin with, atleast to me... of course the Caliphate has helped to evolve Thelema. Like I said before, just Lon Milo DuQuette alone has helped to evolve Thelema. When he first joined the order it was nearly nonexistent and with his help and the help of many others such as Grady McMurtry, well, it is what it is now and it's able to reach anyone and everyone who is interested in Thelema who otherwise wouldn't have a local O.T.O. body to join, if they so desire (atleast in the US where I live and which I can speak of), or books to buy at affordable prices and quite easy to find and educate themselves on Thelema.

So after saying this, I still don't see where the argument lies and what all the fuss this forum post is about. Simply put, if it wasn't for the Caliphate, I may not even be interested in Thelema or I atleast wouldn't be at the point I'm at now - which is a beginning student who is fascinated and feels like he finally found what he's been looking for!

To me this seems like one of those threads that will continue to go on and on until it gets locked, with no definite answer to the original question because it's simply a matter of opinion. In my opinion the question poses more of a popularity contest than anything. I haven't been a member of this website for very long and I haven't posted all that much, but from what I've seen, the majority of its members live outside of the US, I could be wrong though? Also, from what I've seen, a lot of the members seem to be interested in the writings of Kenneth Grant, which there is nothing wrong with, of course. I'm currently reading through a couple of Grant's books - or atleast trying to! Being new there really isn't much of a primer for Grant's books and a lot of what I read is very obscure to me, but I enjoy it nonetheless. Anyways, I'm just wondering if the people who voted "no" to this question are either members of the Typhonian O.T.O. and have a problem with the other order? I don't know really, I like what I read from both sides honestly and I'm sure all the various branches of the O.T.O. have in some way helped Thelema, even if it's just helping one person. I have no favorite when it comes to a particular branch of the O.T.O., it's just that being in the US myself, I'm subject to the Caliphate O.T.O. which is great because so far it has been nothing but positive, beneficial and informative for my needs. As far as I know there aren't any local T.O.T.O. bodies for me even if I was interested here in the US.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
14/11/2006 1:08 pm  

Nice one Cronus,

That's probably as good and dignified a conclusion to this epic as anyone can muster,
anyone for tea & biscuits ...

Love Hxxx


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the_real_simon_iff
(@the_real_simon_iff)
Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 1836
14/11/2006 1:45 pm  

93, Cronus!

Indeed a nice post. You were saying what I wanted to say without making a "collecting fool" out of yourself as I did. The problem (better: one of the problems) with this poll was that I had the impression hawthornrussell was implying that non-cOTO Thelemic bodies (or whatevers) are newer, fresher and more innovative and in my opinion the notion that something IS newer, fresher and more innovative is absurd enough. Also I had the feeling he thought that newer, fresher and more innovative IS BETTER, which is equally absurd of course. I guess a lot of answers gave enough proof that cOTO helps/helped evolving Thelema (to say Thelema can't be evolved at all makes this thread even more absurd) to some people - most of them non-cOTO people like me. Maybe it is time for hawthornrussell to clarify what is fresh, new and innovative (or boring, obsolete and conservative) Thelema-evolving in his view?

Only maybe...

Love=Law
Lutz


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1850
14/11/2006 2:10 pm  

May I add that when I was an art student, there was this atmosphere in the Art Dept. of wanting to "push it" without much of a sense of WHAT motivated that "pushing." There were cases of artists being novel just to be novel and, of course, the looming shadow of the old adage "Nothing New Beneath The Sun" (you've got to go BEHIND the Sun! 😆 ).

I think this thread has opened up many possibilites for more SPECIFIC lines of dialogue which we might wish to take up elsewhere-Order Legitimacy. Legalities and Thelema, Order Relationships and Communications, Works which exemplify Thelemic Expression beyond Crowley, Non-Order Thelemic Work etc etc. No doubt we will open up more cans of contention but also a lot of new venues of perspective, as well.

Cronus, I think you might be the Superstar of the Morning here! LOL! Really wonderful post!

93-anyone for BEER and biscuits?

Kyle


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
14/11/2006 6:43 pm  

How about ending this thread and starting a new one?
The 93 current isn't something floating around like tinkerbell or something you can buy a bottle of.
93 is like a candle casting shadows on a wall, the shadows being its manifestations.
So new question.

Has the Caliphate O.T.O. manifested the 93 current in a good way.
Art,music, book publication etc you choose.
Best Wishes Robert.


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the_real_simon_iff
(@the_real_simon_iff)
Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 1836
14/11/2006 7:16 pm  

93, Robert!

"rabrazier" wrote:
Has the Caliphate O.T.O. manifested the 93 current in a good way.

Very subjective, isn't it? Probably the results will not differ very much from the above poll. But maybe not. What counts as "good"? Totally "good", more or less "good" or "a little good is enough"? Maybe the aims of all Thelemic bodies are more important than their means? Maybe the aims are not so different at all? Maybe it would be easier to compare (if thou must compare, I know that this is not the formulated question but I personally read this between the lines) very specific methods of cOTO and other Thelemic bodies? Of course people like me could then not answer - at least not from an inside perspective. But I am looking forward to the results of this question anyway.

Hm...

Love=Law
Lutz


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
14/11/2006 9:44 pm  

Thanks for the replies chaps.

Summary:

Over 50% of you (54%) disagreed with the motion of the caliphate helping to evolve the Thelemic movement. Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing i dont know. 33% agreed with this assertion that the caliphate is a benefit to the Thelemic movement.But some of the posts defending the caliphate could have done a better job in their defence of the caliphate. The irony wasnt lost on me that one of the best arguments(defending the caliphate) was actually put up by Mr Staley of Typhonian fame. 😀

What i have learnt from this thread is that there still doesnt seem to be be any collective agreement amongst Thelemites over the role and direction of the caliphate (and their place in the Thelemic community). To me this is a good thing since Thelema will never produce sheep or a herd mentality.

In Conclusion; Thelema will continue to be a many headed beast that will travel in many directions regardless of history.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4053
14/11/2006 10:14 pm  
"hawthornrussell" wrote:
The irony wasnt lost on me that one of the best arguments(defending the caliphate) was actually put up by Mr Staley of Typhonian fame. 😀

It wasn't lost on me, either.


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