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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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Does anyone have a list of what the topics are for all the Red Flame magazines? I know #1 is poetry of Grady McMurtry, #2 is Mystery of Mystery--Thelemic Gnostic Primer, #12 & #13 are the Grady McMurtry bios. Can anyone fill the gaps inbetween?
Also how many existing A.:A.: groups are active in the U.S.? Is there one within the Calaphite OTO, possibly Jerry Cornelius, the group that used to be led by Sorer Meral, and the SOTO one? Is there an A.:A.: within the Typhonian OTO too? How many am I missing? thanks for any info regarding these queries.


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the_real_simon_iff
(@the_real_simon_iff)
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93!

Check out the excellent LAShTAL Bibliographica Thelemica search engine and put "Red Flame" into the search field and check "Search by Title/Journal/Series" and uncheck "Include Notes".

http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/module-pnMediaLibrary-search.phtml

There you go!

Love=Law
Lutz


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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Joined: 15 years ago
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"sirius" wrote:
Does anyone have a list of what the topics are for all the Red Flame magazines? I know #1 is poetry of Grady McMurtry, #2 is Mystery of Mystery--Thelemic Gnostic Primer, #12 & #13 are the Grady McMurtry bios. Can anyone fill the gaps inbetween?
Also how many existing A.:A.: groups are active in the U.S.? Is there one within the Calaphite OTO, possibly Jerry Cornelius, the group that used to be led by Sorer Meral, and the SOTO one? Is there an A.:A.: within the Typhonian OTO too? How many am I missing? thanks for any info regarding these queries.

93,

There is a thread on A:.A:. Lineages here on Lashtal.com, but as you may be able to tell from reading it, the thread hasn't gone too far.

It doesn't help that that A:.A:. is in a period of Silence at the moment. Add to that the fact that most people that know about such things tend to save their knowledge for special occasions.

From what I know, however, the lineage connected with the College of Thelema is not connected with JErry Cornelius, who is in turn connected with Grady McMurtry. The Caliphate's connections are in line with Frater Achad, etc. In short, there's a lot more to it than a few paper trails.

Good luck in your search.

93 93/93


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mutat
(@mutat)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 22
 

Have you check out Jerry Cornelius website? http://cornelius93.com/

Also Cornelius’s new magaizne “CORNELIA” table of contents is listed here.

http://cornelius93.com/CorneliaMagazine2.html

cheers


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 
"sirius" wrote:
Does anyone have a list of what the topics are for all the Red Flame magazines? I know #1 is poetry of Grady McMurtry, #2 is Mystery of Mystery--Thelemic Gnostic Primer, #12 & #13 are the Grady McMurtry bios. Can anyone fill the gaps inbetween?

Or you could go to their website that they put up themselves and look for yourself: http://cornelius93.com/CorneliaMagazine2.htm l"> http://cornelius93.com/CorneliaMagazine2.html (edit: it seems the fellow above me beat me to this link).

Also, its completely false of Azidonis to claim "It doesn't help that that A:.A:. is in a period of Silence at the moment. Add to that the fact that most people that know about such things tend to save their knowledge for special occasions. " Each lineage has their own rules, their own 'times of silence' (if they even abide by that) and such. I assure you that some AA lineages are not in a 'period of Silence' at the moment.

Also how many existing A.:A.: groups are active in the U.S.?

Around 3 or 4, maybe more.

Is there one within the Calaphite OTO, possibly Jerry Cornelius, the group that used to be led by Sorer Meral, and the SOTO one?

No, you are very very confused.

1) There is no AA within the 'Caliphate' OTO - there is just one endorsed by them (at least on their website) which I believe is a Brazilean lineage (Motta perhaps), probably because of the higher degree's allegiance to this linage.
2) Jerry Cornelius' lineage (descended from Grady McMurtry) is NOT the same as the one advertised by the OTO and it is NOT the same as the one propogated by Soror Meral and it is NOT the SOTO - in fact, all these are different as well (and SOTO isnt an AA line but an OTO organization... they shoudlnt be included in this list with the others).
3) Soror Meral's lineage comes from Soror Estai (Jane Wolfe) who was an actual probationer of Crowley.

Is there an A.:A.: within the Typhonian OTO too?

Im going with no, especially becasue there isnt even one 'within' the 'Caliphate' OTO.

How many am I missing? thanks for any info regarding these queries.

Read up on that Lineage thread that was recommended - some good points are made.

Try looking up 'Astrum Argenteum' or something similar to that in Wikipedia or something. That might help you out.

65 & 210,
111-418


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

As Aum418 said, you're rather confused. I think you should understand exactly what the A.'.A.'. is and what the OTO is.

The A.'.A.'. is a Thelemic spiritual organization that utilizes both magick and yoga in its curriculum to aid students in firstly, attaining knowledge and conversation with ones holy guardian angel, and then secondly, journey the abyss. A.'.A.'. members in theory only have connection with their teacher and whoever they teach. In reality, many in a branch do know and interact with each other, but formally their studies are independent of each other.

The OTO or rather Ordo Templi Orientis, is a quasi-masonic fraternity that has adopted the Law of Thelema (however does not even expect its members to be Thelemites, they're even forbidden to talk about the contents of the book). It used to teach magick and yoga in its formal curriculum but no longer does. Individual lodges often will teach courses, however. The mainstay of the OTO teachings are found within their initatory rites, which like masonry, has tons of symbolism relating to life found within them. They also perform the Gnostic Mass regularly, which is moreof a subconscious preporatory tool for receiving the teachings at its higher degrees, which are parts of sex magick. The workings of the OTO are entirely group work, a big contrast between it and the A.'.A.'. Members are not expected to show progress with work or yoga and can climb quite high in the ranks without ever becoming an accomplished magickian. This is in contrast to how Crowley ran and envisioned the OTO in which he had yoga and magick as part of its formal curriculum and compared the IX degree of it to the VI degree of A.'.A.'.

Historically, the two while seperate were intertwined because Crowley headed up both the A.'.A.'. and the OTO and recommended the OTO as preporatory work for the A.'.A.'.. After his death and the splintering of the A.'.A.'. and the OTO, it's not so much a matter of them being interwined as rather which lineage of each you're talking about. The largest OTO group, the Caliphate OTO, has a number of its upper degree members belonging to a lineage of the A.'.A.'. descendent from an individual by the name of Marcelo Motta and when they publish their books, they often reference that lineage of the A.'.A.'. (of course they would push their own branch).


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Frater_HPK
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"kuniggety" wrote:
The mainstay of the OTO teachings are found within their initatory rites, which like masonry, has tons of symbolism relating to life found within them. They also perform the Gnostic Mass regularly, which is moreof a subconscious preporatory tool for receiving the teachings at its higher degrees, which are parts of sex magick.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

Well, not exactly my point of view, but very close in some aspects. In my opinion OTO as Outer Order prepare, in the two lover triads, a person for the Initiation. Person should develop virtues, not old Aeonic like in old Aeonic Orders, but new Aeonic Virtues. For example instead of fear of God New Aeonic Virtue is a courage. Also, Gbostic Mass and Initiations are tools for the development of our Sphere of Sensations and,, in this way, for developing of the "new senses" needed for the experience of the Macrocosmos. Macrocosmos both in OTO (Higher OTO degrees) and as preparation for Astrum Argentum as Inner Order. Because of I like physical Initiations and Gnostic Mass and consider them important. Crowley "upgraded" The Golden Dawn to the Briatic level, and in Astrum Argentum remove whole Outer Order. In my opinion that become the function of the OTO. Just my current understanding. It would be better to check this with someone who is more experienced then I.

Love is the law, love under will

B.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

I like the way you worded your feelings towards the OTO. I'm not a member of the OTO (although who knows, I could be one day), so my knowledge of them is purely intellectual from an outsider's point of view.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2964
 

93,

"Aum418" wrote:
Also, its completely false of Azidonis to claim "It doesn't help that that A:.A:. is in a period of Silence at the moment. Add to that the fact that most people that know about such things tend to save their knowledge for special occasions. " Each lineage has their own rules, their own 'times of silence' (if they even abide by that) and such. I assure you that some AA lineages are not in a 'period of Silence' at the moment.

Alright, false. However, some lineages ARE in a period of Silence. Again, this can put a damper on the search. Also, it is indeed true to an extent that some lineages, while openly accessible if you know how to find them, do not commonly advertise or make themselves known to the masses.

Also how many existing A.:A.: groups are active in the U.S.?
Around 3 or 4, maybe more.

I know of at least five just in the U.S., but who's counting...

No, you are very very confused.

1) There is no AA within the 'Caliphate' OTO - there is just one endorsed by them (at least on their website) which I believe is a Brazilean lineage (Motta perhaps), probably because of the higher degree's allegiance to this linage.
2) Jerry Cornelius' lineage (descended from Grady McMurtry) is NOT the same as the one advertised by the OTO and it is NOT the same as the one propogated by Soror Meral and it is NOT the SOTO - in fact, all these are different as well (and SOTO isnt an AA line but an OTO organization... they shoudlnt be included in this list with the others).
3) Soror Meral's lineage comes from Soror Estai (Jane Wolfe) who was an actual probationer of Crowley.

1. The A:.A:. in Brazil, which is connected through Motta, is not the same as the A:.A:. connected with the Caliphate.
2. The Caliphate has it's connections with Frater Achad.
3. Soror Meral's connection through Soror Estai is agreed on.
4. Jerry Cornelius' connection with Grady McMurtry is agreed on.

Is there an A.:A.: within the Typhonian OTO too?
Im going with no, especially becasue there isnt even one 'within' the 'Caliphate' OTO.

If there is any connection, it's probably arbitrary.

Read up on that Lineage thread that was recommended - some good points are made.

Some good points are made on that thread, however it indeed gets little to nothing done when it comes down to sorting out the various paper trails. Perhaps this is because people haven't desired to share their research, or they just prefer to let things be as they are, in which case either is fine. "When the Student is ready, the Teacher will appear." It would actually do more good to do all of the necessary preparatory work on your own, and let the A:.A:. find you, than to go searching for Them.

There is a very good point made though, in "ye shall know them by their fruits." I've known quite a few who, while not affiliated with any lineage proper, are indeed in some way connected with the A:.A:.

Try looking up 'Astrum Argenteum' or something similar to that in Wikipedia or something. That might help you out.

65 & 210,
111-418

Try looking up those involved with the A:.A:. at the time of Crowley's death: Grady McMurtry, Karl Germer, Marcello Motta, and others. Also, try finding their claims and the claims of others and the individual schools of thought created by those mentioned and the Aspirants which were working with them. As Motta died in 1985, there is some fresh information out there, but it may take a while for you to find.

As always, good luck in the Great Work.

93 93/93,

Az

Edit - Here is a link to the somewhat defunct thread, "The Lineages of the A:.A:."

http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-2005.phtm l"> http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-2005.phtml


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Frater_HPK
(@frater_hpk)
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Posts: 104
 
"Azidonis" wrote:
Try looking up those involved with the A:.A:. at the time of Crowley's death: Grady McMurtry, Karl Germer, Marcello Motta, and others. Also, try finding their claims and the claims of others and the individual schools of thought created by those mentioned and the Aspirants which were working with them. As Motta died in 1985, there is some fresh information out there, but it may take a while for you to find.

As always, good luck in the Great Work.

http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-2005.phtm l"> http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-2005.phtml

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

Well, I heard a different version. McMurtry wasn't involved with Astrum Argentum at the time of Crowley's death. He was Probationr under Phyllis Seckler. I don't know is this true, but this is how I heard.

Love is the law, love under will

B.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2964
 

93,

For some reason, I recall back in the day (pre-2004), reading the Web Site of Jerry Cornelius. I remember there was a good reason for me not to believe his claims, though I don't remember what that reason was. I also recall a similar finding, Frater_HPK, about McMurtry not being affiliated with the A:.A:. after a certain point. I'm sure Phyllis Seckler ties in with it some how as you mentioned, but again I can't remember exactly.

However, upon recently re-reading the little lection provided on Cornelius' Site, he seems to make things clear in that aspect. Basically he states that McMurtry, while not affiliated with Motta's ties, had eventually Attained on his own, and then passed the torch to Cornelius. This is very believable and most probably did occur. As such, there were many others to apparently do the same thing.

While I have my own questions about the lineage mentioned, I would think the ultimate question is if said lineage produces valid Adepts. In short, does it truly Initiate? If indeed it does, then it follows to be the only proof necessary. I have no reason or proof to either accept or decline the notion through experience, and thus choose to give their claims the benefit of the doubt.

The most common idea with Lineage is that people want some direct link to Crowley. One thing most worthy of mention is that while the current "Occult media" version of the A:.A:. was indeed drawn out by Crowley and Jones, it is well known that they weren't the first Initiators along those lines, and they won't be the last, though the System they formed has been very influential thus far, and indeed provides a good template. As such, being that one Task of the Exempt Adept is to formulate his own school of thought, there have been many adaptations of the original System.

In one way, it is a loss to common history that so many things happened chaotically after the death of the Beast. In another way, it seems after His death, the A:.A:. was truly allowed to grow and change as He meant it to, and thus by now there are probably as many variations of the System as one can immediately think of.

There are indeed a few general outlines and even rules laid down by the Beast Himself, such as the acceptance of money for services. These and others are definitely things to look for when considering the A:.A:. While I've personally been through the very junior aspects of two very different Lineages (one more traditional, the other with a different shell but same focus), I must say that the overall idea is the same, even if the clothing isn't.

As always, good luck in the Great Work.

93 93/93,
Az


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

According to James Eschelmann (sp?), the current Praemonstrator of Soror Meral's lineage of the A.'.A.'., McMurtry was a Probationer under Soror Meral but she expelled him for lack of doing the work required of a Probationer. I'm not sure at what point in history the two of them started having bad blood between each other after being married, but I wouldn't think that this inciident went without having some sort of impact on the matter. From my understanding, he went on to attain on his own and turned around and produced some viable adepts (namely Jerry Cornelius and then the adepts that he turned around and created) and in the light of "success is thy proof", McMurtry was a Magister Templi and then Magus as much as any other person who has claimed such titles. The A.'.A.'. (in its truest sense) is that one and true invisible order, not a matter of paper trails back to Crowley. Or, who initiated Crowley into the true and invisible order? 🙂


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 Anonymous
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