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Rose Crowley dictated Liber Legis

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the_real_simon_iff
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What? Well, that's what Stephen Skinner said during his talk at the Occulture Conference in Berlin:

"Much of the reception of "Liber Legis" was due to his wife Rose Kelly who devised the initial invocation and clairaudiently recieved the text over three days. Crowley just worked as a scribe from Rose's dictation."

Anybody here has any thoughts on that? Or even better: any points that support or disprove this claim? Anything more than the obvious handwriting of Rose correcting the manuscript?

It got quite some attention on Facebook where it unsurprisingly soon went into an OTO or anti-OTO thing. Lashtalians surely won't go in this direction.


   
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ignant666
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Well, for whatever reason, that was what i thought AC said when i first read about all this back in the early '70s as a mere boy and beardless youth, meaning that was what i thought AC had said happened after first reading The Hag.

Why i thought this i'm not sure, since he clearly in The Hag says she had a much smaller role, as i realized on re-reading a couple years later.

@lashtal once claimed to have the real Cairo story but decided not to publish; i wish he'd change his mind. One wonders if "Lucky" Hamid, the Shepeard's Annex room-service waiter, kept a diary or wrote any memoirs. Of course when @therealrtc publishes those long-lost Rose C. honeymoon diaries, all will be settled. 


   
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the_real_simon_iff
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 @ignant666 In any case it would solve so many mysteries. I always liked this very early account when he invoked Aiwass with Elaine Simpson in early 1906: "Return to Egypt, with different surroundings (This misheard: he said same) There I will give thee signs. Go with the S. W. this is essential: thus you shall get real power, that of God, the only one worth having." I can't remember if he called Rose Sarlet Woman before. And: "Your shorter path lies by Egypt and S. W. though she is not spiritually your equal." and: "Do not part from S.W. Use her."

He does seem to recognize her importance here. It wouldn't be the last time Scarlet Women channeling for him, would it?

Were it simply personal feelings or machismo that made him play Rose's role down? A similar importance (though not quite as big) was also mentioned in Hulse's "Genesis of the Book of the Law", a work you also seem to like if I remember correctly.

I do not expect anything new from Cole here.


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

Anybody here has any thoughts on that? Or even better: any points that support or disprove this claim?

It is up to Mr Skinnerd to prove his point(s) that have no basis in the current evidence pot. . Perhaps he is doing a take-off on the RTC Paradigm?


   
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ignant666
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Except for his claimed Cairo scenario, and the Vision and the Voice material, AC's lifetime MO when contacting praeterhuman intelligences involved sexing up and intoxicating seeresses/Scarlet Women who then relayed their visions and revelations.

So perhaps that's why Rose's having larger-than-claimed role seems so plausible?


   
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the_real_simon_iff
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Posted by: @shiva

It is up to Mr Skinnerd to prove his point(s) that have no basis in the current evidence pot. . Perhaps he is doing a take-off on the RTC Paradigm?

Sure it is, but this guy is not much of a help when it comes to evidence. He made that claim already in his edition of "Magick" - which not only was totally unneccessary, full of errors and a book-binding atrocity - and I don't like to partake in the (OTO centered) discussion over on Facebook, so I thought I'll bring it up here (maybe some of you are also on Facebook - it's for old people only!).

Here is a theory that would solve ALL the problems with the official reception story (except for the Automatic Writing thingie): Rose channelled the book in the other room and had it somehow mouthed and dictated by dark Hamid in the corner, and AC took dictation. He then is able to claim he heard the and saw a dark man with a deep voice dictating, Rose can be in the other room as AC said she was, and she could also correct the manuscript. Everybody's happy, except for those guys who say that "But then it wouldn't have been a praeterhuman entity dictating it, but a supernatural event." I am too dumb to see the difference.


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

Here is a theory that would solve ALL the problems...

I go ith the one that says, "judge the Book by its contents, and pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."

 


   
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wellreadwellbred
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ignant666: "Except for his claimed Cairo scenario, and the Vision and the Voice material, AC's lifetime MO when contacting praeterhuman intelligences involved sexing up and intoxicating seeresses/Scarlet Women who then relayed their visions and revelations."

 

That is an interesting point. 

How many of the Class A texts of AC's Thelema are known to be derived via any seeress / any Scarlet Woman? 


   
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herupakraath
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

Much of the reception of "Liber Legis" was due to his wife Rose Kelly

There is no evidence the reception of the text involved or depended on Rose, thus demonstrating conjecture on the part of Skinner.

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

his wife Rose Kelly who devised the initial invocation

If we are to believe her husband, Rose had no knowledge of mythology or the occult, which means any input on her part in the construction of the rituals originated with Aiwass. Skinner seems to rely on Rose channeling Aiwass one minute, only to forget it the next. Aleister had the final say in the construction of the invocations, as demonstrated when he asked Rose if he should include the word Abrahadabra in it, and she said no, but he included it anyway.

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

clairaudiently recieved the text over three days.

The evidence that Rose filled in the missing half of Coph Nia suggests she was hearing the dictation, just as her husband was, and forms the crux of Skinner's theory. Although unstated, Skinner's theory relies on Crowley being unable to hear the voice of Aiwass, hence the need for Rose to dictate the content of the book to her husband. It would be absurd to think that Crowley, in describing the room where he received the text, would happen to omit the presence of his wife, and equally absurd to think Rose dictated the text to her husband from a different room than where it was written down. If Rose was in the room, there should have been no issues with Crowley hearing what was spoken by her, which is yet another absurdity, followed by the thought that Crowley could perceive Aiwass in the corner of the room, but could not hear him.

And there is this quote from The Equinox of The Gods, which makes no sense if Rose had dictated the text of Liber Legis to her husband instead of Aiwass:

The three days were precisely similar, save that on the last day I became nervous lest I should fail to hear the Voice of Aiwass.

 


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @herupakraath

conjecture

Yes, that is a good word to describe the Skinner anomaly

Posted by: @herupakraath

Skinner

Please ask Mr Skinner to re-apply next Spring - when the Bird-Song Committee is in session.

.

 


   
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(@katrice)
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

He does seem to recognize her importance here. It wouldn't be the last time Scarlet Women channeling for him, would it?

Posted by: @ignant666

Except for his claimed Cairo scenario, and the Vision and the Voice material, AC's lifetime MO when contacting praeterhuman intelligences involved sexing up and intoxicating seeresses/Scarlet Women who then relayed their visions and revelations.

One could interpret the role of Scarlet Women (masc equivalents have been called Demon Lover by some) as the receptive partner in workings like this.  Although there was obviously nothing sexual in the arrangement, this was the role that Edward Kelly played to Dee, in fact. The child scryers in some Hermetic texts fill the same role.  It's a time honored tradition dating back to at least Dositheus. 

 

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

I do not expect anything new from Cole here.

That seems like the most sensible take.  

 

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

Everybody's happy, except for those guys who say that "But then it wouldn't have been a praeterhuman entity dictating it, but a supernatural event." I am too dumb to see the difference

There is none for all practical intents and purposes.   


   
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Shiva
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Read the (any) material. Judge it by its inherent authenticity. Start tending to ignore any myths about how it came to be. Just read it, and sat yes, no, or maybe?


   
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the_real_simon_iff
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Posted by: @herupakraath

If we are to believe her husband,

This is - I guess - the one thing Skinner says: DO NOT believe her husband. See, your EOTG quote is useless then. This is - to me - a WHAT IF challenge. Yeah, Skinner presents it as truth but that is just because he is just a guy like that - knowing what is true. Of course he doesn't and I urge you to not take his ridiculuously overprized Feng Shui courses. His Magick edition was a shipwreck also. So: leaving out the AC narration, is Rose's role as a medium to channel and dictate Liber AL conceivable?

 


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

- the one thing Skinner says: DO NOT believe her husband.

Her husband also said, "Do not believe me - Do The Work and find out for yourself."

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

his ridiculuously overprized Feng Shui courses.

My Feng Shui (pronounced "Fong Shway") course is free and very complete> Anyone may ask for the webpage or a copy of the book.

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

His Magick edition was a shipwreck

I've heard his name, but never encountered his works. I think he should come here next Spring and explain himself.

 


   
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