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Saying Will is Grace Before Meals rehashed.  


dom
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Saying Will ie before you have a meal you say, "I eat to do my Will" etc then you knock the table and eat.  Grace before meals rehashed, a great pious American tradition.

This topic was modified 1 week ago 3 times by dom

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Tiger
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It is my will to eat and to drink.
That I may fortify my body thereby.
That I may accomplish the Great Work.


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ignant666
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Posted by: @dom

a great pious American tradition.

That is common to all Xians, not just Americans, because Jesus does it in the Bible:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_(prayer)

It was certainly a part of AC's Plymouth Brethren childhood in the UK, which is very likely where he copied the idea from.


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dom
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Posted by: @ignant666
 

That is common to all Xians, not just Americans, because Jesus does it in the Bible:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_(prayer)

It was certainly a part of AC's Plymouth Brethren childhood in the UK, which is very likely where he copied the idea from.

Well I'd  say that noone in Britain frm a normal non-pious household has done that in the last 150 years or so and we tend to laugh at this practice when it crops up American tv shows.

Apart from me I don't know of anyone who does either practice.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @dom

Apart from me I don't know of anyone who does either practice

So which one do you do?


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dom
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Posted by: @michael-staley
 

So which one do you do?

Thelemic one.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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@dom
So which one do you do?
Thelemic one.

Can i get an Amen! ?

Now, do you denounce Jesus and accept the Beast ?


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Posted by: @tiger

@dom
So which one do you do?
Thelemic one.

Can i get an Amen! ?

Now, do you denounce Jesus and accept the Beast ?

"With every head bowed and every eye closed, as the choir begins to sing..."


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hermitas
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Jesus "breaking bread" with his disciples comes from a Jewish tradition before meals. You pray over a loaf of bread, break it, then pass it around the table. Everyone who eats participates in the blessing of the prayer. 

Just a touch of magick..


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Shiva
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Posted by: @tiger

It is my will to eat and to drink.
That I may fortify my body thereby.
That I may accomplish the Great Work.

This is just an excuse for eating. The more sensitive among us abhor the dependency upon external chi consumption, and so we need to state our reason for such gluttony.

Of course, both Grace and Will are dogmatic mantras, or small rituals, to remind ourselves of the necessity to eat.

Posted by: @ignant666

It was certainly a part of AC's Plymouth Brethren childhood in the UK, which is very likely where he copied the idea from.

If we examine, line by line, word by word, we find that most, if not all, of Thelemic dogma is based on AC's childhood programming. There is talk of restoring Taoism, of restoring Christianity, and (in general) there is the concept of restoring the mysteries, and the golden age.

Nobody's going to be cruising in Maatland until all these concepts are dismissed. Restoration of the individual's conscious connection to the primordial state is the goal of our endeavors, but on the way there, we sometimes get the strangest notions.

Posted by: @dom

frm a normal non-pious household

Yes, of course. Here in the USA, non-pious gatherers also dispense with chi replenishment mantras. 

Posted by: @dom

when it crops up American tv shows.

TV shows are controlled illusion. In reality, it depends on the local custom of the local household and who's in charge of the household. By "local," I refer to any country or culture in the world.

Posted by: @tiger

Can i get an Amen! ?

Amen is a corrupted form of Amoun, Amon, Amun (etc), the chief deity in Thebes. His followers, The Lords of Thebes, allowed other gods, but none before Amen. Be careful what you ask for, it may be contagious.

Posted by: @tiger

Now, do you denounce Jesus and accept the Beast ?

This reminds me of a line in one of Saladin's skits. I know you didn't ask me this question, but I cannot resist saying, "No. Neither. None of them. Neti-neti."

Posted by: @hermitas

... comes from a Jewish tradition before meals.

Over and over, we see all dogmatic or ritualistic or mantric stuff is based on that which went before. A stight change in the word is all, and thus a change, and therefore an act of Magick, as you say.


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christibrany
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Posted by: @shiva

This is just an excuse for eating. The more sensitive among us abhor the dependency upon external chi consumption, and so we need to state our reason for such gluttony.

Whats wrong with eating?  Bit of a gourmet here myself.

Someone should put together an AC recipe book of stuff he cooked a lot/menus he made up.

 

Posted by: @tiger
 

Now, do you denounce Jesus and accept the Beast ?

No, neither your Guvernance. 

 

Posted by: @dom

Thelemic one.

Why?  

I do RESH but don't feel the need to 'say Will' like a good choirboy.   Perhaps former seems more meditative and holy to me and Will just seems like a ripoff.  I am thankful for my food. internally. no pun intended. 


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Posted by: @christibrany

Bit of a gourmet here myself.

You may enjoy your long, eternal stay in the Hellfire Hotel, or you may not.

 


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christibrany
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@shiva

 

You saying that adepts dont eat? 

 

Or (you are actually saying) they don't indulge in tastebuds. 

 

Shame 


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christibrany
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@shiva

 

PS to say. this is a prison planet and we are all bound by chains of food, sex, booze, pleasure , air, living etc. 

What an Arthur Conan Drum 


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @christibrany

Someone should put together an AC recipe book of stuff he cooked a lot/menus he made up.

They did (or tried to): there was even one who was a lady here on Lashtal, whose name at the moment escapes me but who might be reading this at some point & can then say how she's getting on.

However the trouble lies in the fact that although AC might have listed the actual ingredients for a given recipe, he was a bit more remiss in his diligence over listing the precise amounts to use, which in terms of cooking a meal could make all the difference between a culinary success and a disaster.

Bon appetit,

Norma N Joy Conquest

Posted by: @tiger

Can i get an Amen! ?

Amen.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @christibrany

You saying that adepts dont eat? 

The real ones don't. They have ascended in their Bodies of Rainbow Light and have no need of physical replenishment. Those turds left me behind, and I'm not happy about ingesting and excreting. Some Saints have been known to not eat. The Church sends spies to check these people out. With God, all things are possible.

Posted by: @christibrany

Or (you are actually saying) they don't indulge in tastebud

I am actually saying what I said in the first place ...

Posted by: @shiva

The more sensitive among us abhor the dependency upon external chi consumption

I will admit to dependency upon dead organic matter. It is a form of an addiction. To undertake full withdrawal is to die. What a gordy k-not.

Posted by: @christibrany

this is a prison planet and we are all bound by chains of food, sex, booze, pleasure , air, living etc. 

Well, fine. But you don't have to rub it in. After all, I exposed the truth first.

 

 


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dom
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Posted by: @christibrany

Why?  

I do RESH but don't feel the need to 'say Will' like a good choirboy.  

I have no idea why you are bringing 'good choirboys' into this.  You appear to have missed the entire point of Saying Will.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Tiger
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@christibrany
Do you denounce Jesus and accept the Beast ?
No, neither your Guvernance.

Duly noted.


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dom
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Posted by: @tiger

@christibrany
Do you denounce Jesus and accept the Beast ?
No, neither your Guvernance.

Duly noted.

Hey Tiger what is this Beast you talk of?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Tiger
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@dom
Hey Tiger what is this Beast you talk of ?

Thelemic one.


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dom
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Posted by: @tiger

@dom
Hey Tiger what is this Beast you talk of ?

Thelemic one.

What is it?  It's poetry it's symbolics right?  We know what 'a Beast' is it's a term that describes a vast selection of the rest of the animal kingdom so what do you actually mean by 'the Beast'? 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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@dom
you don’t know ?
here

Το Μεγα Θηριον — Greek for “The Great Beast”

research should help you.


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dom
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Posted by: @tiger

@dom
you don’t know ?
here

Το Μεγα Θηριον — Greek for “The Great Beast”

research should help you.

What about your thoughts about it?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Tiger
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@dom
The Beast ushered in the New Aeon.

Is Jesus the truth and way for you ?


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dom
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Posted by: @tiger

@dom
The Beast ushered in the New Aeon.

Is Jesus the truth and way for you ?

Oh you're referring to Liber Legis?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

Hey Tiger what is this Beast you talk of?

This is the AC Society. Knowing who/what the Beast is, is Thelema 101.

Posted by: @dom

What about your thoughts about it?

Be cautious, Tiger. You are being set up for persecution under the Thought Crimes Act.

 


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @dom

Apart from me I don't know of anyone who does either practice.

I suspect that saying Will before meals is quite widespread, actually. I don't think it was necessarily inspired by the Christian practice of saying Grace before meal, but comes from a common root of focusing, which is probably an  observance across a variety of traditions.

I don't do Will before meals, but I do focus for several minutes every morning, using a black obsidian globe.


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dom
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Posted by: @tiger

@dom
The Beast ushered in the New Aeon.

Is Jesus the truth and way for you ?

The Beast is a symbol of what it is to return to a naturally functioning morality internally as oppose to going to some Holy Book's dogma.    So that's Do what thou wilt as oppose to Thou shalt not etc.    I like to think it relates to Rousseau's Noble Savage concept in which people are never born evil but they are made evil by circumstances imposed upon them and that includes negative conditioning. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @michael-staley

suspect that saying Will before meals is quite widespread

Your suspicions are confirmed (in retro). Back when I was a dedicated Thelemite, I/we observed all the formalities, including saying Will at mealtimes. I got out of that habit when I switched to a different stream of The White Brotherhood, so-called, and although this alternative version stressed the Will concept, it did not include meal-time Will affirmations. Then, when students started to show up (after I had abandoned any inclination to teach anybody), I adopted the pure and true A.'.A.'. curriculum method, without fees being paid in advance, I felt bound to introduce meal-Will, which we did, maybe, three times a year.

But, yes, there is a zone wherein people in that zone perform simple dogmatic rituals on a daily basis. I make no pretense at sifting these zones of endeavor into which one is higher or best or stupid. I merely agree with your sentiments.

Posted by: @michael-staley

I don't think it was necessarily inspired by the Christian practice of saying Grace

This is a tough one. Obviously, much of the simple Thelemic dogmatic rituals (like Resh, Apo Ponusing priests, and greeting others, seem to be reflections of other religious/philosophical cultures. It seems like any routine action got caught up in how we were recommended to carry it out.

On the other hand, I believe meal-Will comes to us directly from the Minerval degree, at least that's where I first encountered it, so we can blame Saladin, who was a Kurd, for its origination.

Posted by: @michael-staley

comes from a common root of focusing, which is probably an  observance across a variety of traditions.

Precisely. It is a common archetypal recognition, re-cognized with each replenishment. However, I recommend a picture of Salah al-Din also be included, so as to gain Thelemic advantage over all those other common dogmatic heathen swine.

 


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dom
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Posted by: @michael-staley

I suspect that saying Will before meals is quite widespread, actually. I don't think it was necessarily inspired by the Christian practice of saying Grace before meal, but comes from a common root of focusing, which is probably an  observance across a variety of traditions.

I don't do Will before meals, but I do focus for several minutes every morning, using a black obsidian globe.

It has been used by all major faiths and I'm sure that it would've been a part of AC's Victorian upbringing.  That is he would've been forced to do it daily so yeah in that sense it is a culturally conditioned rehash.   It's spiritual, as above so below.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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@dom
do you do it to command the higher aspects of being into the energumen ?
or
do you do it to placate and succor jesus into the nympholept ?
or is it possible that you are placing your trust in some other sources than jesus ?

 


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dom
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Posted by: @tiger

@dom
do you do it to command the higher aspects of being into the energumen ?
or
do you do it to placate and succor jesus into the nympholept ?
or is it possible that you are placing your trust in some other sources than jesus ?

 

It's more a nod to the fact that "spiritually wasted" people live to eat as oppose to eat to live. 

 

Jesus?  We don't even know if that dude existed.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

We don't even know if that dude existed.

That's an interesting viewpoint, one that I share. Such a statement would shudder most Christians, but only causes a giggle or a nod in more realistic lines of thought.


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dom
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @dom

We don't even know if that dude existed.

That's an interesting viewpoint, one that I share. Such a statement would shudder most Christians, but only causes a giggle or a nod in more realistic lines of thought.

Well yeah maybe a group of progressive spiritual Jewish scholars got together and concocted the Gospels however they would've known about the 2000 year precession because they produced these texts (made this cult) just as we were entering the Piscean Age and of course fish and fishermen crop up in Jesus's Parables.   Inn fact I hear that the symbol of the early Christians was a fish.   What does that tell you?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Posted by: @dom

the symbol of the early Christians was a fish.   What does that tell you?

It tells me the Piscean symbol was impressed/revealed at the beginning of the Piscean age. There's a problem though. AC spins a tale of Ankh in ~500 BC, initiating the "new aeon," and the "houses" are not in the same place to actually link the "signs" (in astronomical terms) with the calendar within 500-600 years of accuracy.

It is my personal "best guess" that there possibly/probably was an initiate named Yeshua/Joshua, one among many, who wandered around quoting ancient wisdom. That he could heal is no mystery to me, because I have witnessed enough "miracle" recoveries, after energetic healing was applied, to validate that part.

He got into trouble with the authorities when he disrupted commerce by brutalizing the moneychangers. Unfortunate repercussions led him to Golgotha where, along with many others, he was killed, or suffered a near-death experience.

His immaculate conception, manger ritual with the Magi, many (any) details of his life, resurrection, and ascension so closely resemble the same pageant brought in from the past and from other cultures, that the whole story is subject to endless doubt. And we know the nice Nicean council sifted and arranged the official doctrine to be harmonious with the core beliefs and sacred dates adjusted to give pleasure to a multitude of disharmonized  religious factions within the governable empire.

So I would like to believe that some poor scapegoat healer, who very well may have attained to one or more of the higher degrees, actually existed. My belief system is much more inclined to emphasize the rebuilding of the legend in the nice city of Nicea, and (possibly) pinning it on an actual role model initiate who was killed some 300 years earlier.

And the architect who first laid the foundation for the Nicean Council, one Roman Saul/Paul, put his thesis together about 250 years before Nice (or about 50 years after the Jesus legend was enacted.

There are no first-hand witnesses ... except the disciples who testify in The Book, but whose accounts, in many places, are so obviously the copying of a central theme from a single pre-printed source that one wonders who synthesized the exact same grammar and quotes.

All of this is what I believe, and it's just my interpretation of a prominent legend. But I agree with Ac completely, when he writes of the Magi, that "All of these were men. Their deification [correct word?] is the result of mythopoeia ("myth-making").

 


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dom
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @dom

the symbol of the early Christians was a fish.   What does that tell you?

It tells me the Piscean symbol was impressed/revealed at the beginning of the Piscean age. There's a problem though. AC spins a tale of Ankh in ~500 BC, initiating the "new aeon," and the "houses" are not in the same place to actually link the "signs" (in astronomical terms) with the calendar within 500-600 years of accuracy.

 

I heard that the Egyptian timelines may be out of wack because the Sphinx appears to be weather worn i..e it's older than first suspected so that would give us the following alignments;

2,308 - 148 B.C.  Aries.   Shepherds, goats , rams

 

4,468 -  2,308 B.C. Taurus. Apis/Bull worship

 

6,628 -  4,468 B.C.  Gemini.  Twin Gods/Goddesses

 

8,788 -  6,628  B.C.  Cancer the Crab. No mythical images  (time of chaos and turmoil)

 

10.948 -  8,788 B.C.  Leo.   Lions, Sphinxes    

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

10.948 -  8,788 B.C.  Leo.   Lions, Sphinxes 

That would coincide with the Graham hancock thesis regarding (something) around 10,500 BC. Other sources, including yourself right now, shine on the 10,500 date for one significance or another. I can live with that one (this week anyway, pending new evidence.

The problem lies in finding evidence. This 10G BC date is so far removed from our contemporary ground zero that, again, we are almost entirely left with just a belief system. I say "almost" because there is room to wonder and wiggle. The hard-core Bible figures prove that the world was created in 4004 BC, and that's easy to "believe" that the Niceans were not very good at QBL and Kalendar. But they didn't have carbon-dating, so they had to work with what they had.


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @dom

Jesus?  We don't even know if that dude existed. 

Yeah but maybe the "dude" might've been more commonly recognized among his peers as "Sheesh" (another name which you gave in his stead in the other thread).  Have you ever tried also searching for him under this?

"... I'm a dude, dad" (- probably not words JC would have said as he hung upon the cross),

N Joy 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

"... I'm a dude, dad"

Im a bad dude, you dud.


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dom
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter
Posted by: @dom

Jesus?  We don't even know if that dude existed. 

Yeah but maybe the "dude" might've been more commonly recognized among his peers as "Sheesh" (another name which you gave in his stead in the other thread).  Have you ever tried also searching for him under this?

"... I'm a dude, dad" (- probably not words JC would have said as he hung upon the cross),

N Joy 

Well done that's quite funny.

I first learnt the American term "Sheesh" as a child from Ben Grim, he always used it.

ben

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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dom
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Posted by: @tiger

@dom
The Beast ushered in the New Aeon.

Is Jesus the truth and way for you ?

Banish that Aeon.  

 

Posted by: @christibrany.

Why?  

I do RESH but don't feel the need to 'say Will' like a good choirboy. 

Fascinating.   Note the unwarranted Church-related conditioning here, you see Saying Will as involving some sort of priestly moral-'Super Id' Father Figure standing over you watching you 'do the right thing'?  Are you a Catholic dude? 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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christibrany
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@dom

 

Good evening David,

 

It seems like you are trolling for responses. 

 

Especially i neglected to respond to your first taunt about 'choirboys' 

Don't really care either way.

Posted by: @dom

 Note the unwarranted Church-related conditioning here, you see Saying Will as involving some sort of priestly moral-'Super Id' Father Figure standing over you watching you 'do the right thing'?  Are you a Catholic dude?

 

 

At any rate I am here leaving work and felt like typing. It feels good in the fingers. 

 

I used to be a Catholic dude and thus I don't see the worth in saying Will. It sounds like saying Grace and i dont need to invoke some father figure indeed.  

i will take the food and I will eat it. 

The end. 

I may thank the grains or cows or whatever inside of myself but I feel no need to make an outward show.

Why do you feel that need? 

 


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dom
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Posted by: @christibrany

 

 

I used to be a Catholic dude and thus I don't see the worth in saying Will. It sounds like saying Grace and i dont need to invoke some father figure indeed.  

i will take the food and I will eat it. 

The end. 

I may thank the grains or cows or whatever inside of myself but I feel no need to make an outward show.

Why do you feel that need? 

 

It isn't saying Grace. 

I now realize that Saying Will is not saying Grace as such rehashed, it's actually the reversal of it. It's a middle finger to the shackles of the Old Aeon.    The stupid pious W.A.S.Ps were humbly bowing before some vast gaseous invertebrate in their head for food that they worked on producing themselves in the field. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Posted by: @dom

The stupid pious W.A.S.Ps were humbly bowing before some vast gaseous invertebrate in their head for food that they worked on producing themselves in the field. 

They must have been giving thanks for their booty bounty in line with the sentiments of the hymn "All Creatures Great and Small" (like as at the harvest festival, remember??) - that although they might well "plough the fields and scatter, the good seed on the land" themselves, nevertheless "it is fed and watered/ by God Almighty's God's almighty hand"?  Without which, presumably, there would be no seed coming to fruition and so therefore no food either.  Nor any Thanksgiving later (to stick with & extend the thanks/grace theme..)

N Joy


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dom
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter
Posted by: @dom

The stupid pious W.A.S.Ps were humbly bowing before some vast gaseous invertebrate in their head for food that they worked on producing themselves in the field. 

They must have been giving thanks for their booty bounty in line with the sentiments of the hymn "All Creatures Great and Small" (like as at the harvest festival, remember??) - that although they might well "plough the fields and scatter, the good seed on the land" themselves, nevertheless "it is fed and watered/ by God Almighty's God's almighty hand"?  Without which, presumably, there would be no seed coming to fruition and so therefore no food either.  Nor any Thanksgiving later (to stick with & extend the thanks/grace theme..)

N Joy

Thanksgiving was taken to the USA by English Puritan Protestants.  It's a dumb Osirisian ritual.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Posted by: @christibrany

Especially i neglected to respond to ...

But this was followed by a free Netzach-alysis of great depth, for which you should have been charged $175, which Bred owes Tiger. So you should be grateful for the grace of insight into your motivating motivations that make you move, and why.

Posted by: @christibrany

i will take the food and I will eat it. 

The end. 

I may thank the grains or cows or whatever inside of myself but I feel no need to make an outward show.

Yeah, it's those cows and grains that are being taken on-board. I was thinking of introducing a mandatory (by religious law) rite where by he/she/they all stand up straight from their seat(s) at the table (to signify vegetable/grain growth) and cry out in a very loud voice, "Moo!" Very simple. Quick. Loud. Designed to get attention in a restaurant or a Mess Hall.

Posted by: @dom

The stupid pious W.A.S.Ps were

Setting hate crimes and racial slurs aside, I somehow hold the thoughtform that you are a WASP without the P, but holding a C instead. Am I wrong? were not your ancestors stupid pious somebodys? Every day I become more confused at the confusion I see and read, so I must unsee and unread a lot when it comes time to equilibrate.

Somehow, in my wobblings, I though we came to the conclusion that the stupid pious state was a plane, a phase, a guna, a temporary condition one passed through. Maybe I misunderstood, or was just plain wrong?

Posted by: @dom

It's a dumb Osirisian ritual.

Why is it "dumb?" (Unable to speak. An even Lower level: Stupid).

There is this bizarre concept in metaphysica that one should be grateful for food an other benefits that come one's way. The opposited of this is where one feels "entitled." This is associated with other people saying, "Oh, he has a big ego."

It's probably best if the "entitled" snoots were sent to work in the barnyard or the graveyard. Says so in Syn-agog of Satan (Konx Om Pax).

 


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Posted by: @shiva

The stupid pious W.A.S.Ps were

Setting hate crimes and racial slurs aside, I somehow hold the thoughtform that you are a WASP without the P, but holding a C instead. Am I wrong? were not your ancestors stupid pious somebodys? Every day I become more confused at the confusion I see and read, so I must unsee and unread a lot when it comes time to equilibrate.

 

It's a dumb Osirisian ritual.

Why is it "dumb?" (Unable to speak. An even Lower level: Stupid).

There is this bizarre concept in metaphysica that one should be grateful for food an other benefits that come one's way. The opposited of this is where one feels "entitled." This is associated with other people saying, "Oh, he has a big ego."

It's probably best if the "entitled" snoots were sent to work in the barnyard or the graveyard. Says so in Syn-agog of Satan (Konx Om Pax).

 

Yeah  the KKK would not have approved of me and my family, I'm a WASC, more to the point I'm an earthling...behind my skin colour and conditioned creed that is.   

 

Anyway Thanksgiving and Grace before Meals I already said why it was dumb.  It serves a function it brings peace to the CNS and muscles....... temporarily........ but ultimately, no, an Osteopath or Reflexologist or Reiki session would be far more fitting.    

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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