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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
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30/07/2020 8:51 pm  
Posted by: @christibrany

you forgot to cross out, strike-trough the 2=9

2=9

Now, will you please send the diploma?

And the money?

Posted by: @djedi

I couldn't dress up my words quick enough to penetrate the din.

Ah, so!  You have opened the Veil. Not for him, but for me.

"With my claws [redacted] the Indian and the Buddhist, Mongol and Din."

I have long wondered about the Din. I suppose it's explained somewhere, but since it's not a prime function, I let it pass.

Now you have defined the Din for me: "Dense, Difficult, Dark-humor (potty-motch version), Demeaning, Dumb (or Deficient).

D.D.D.D.D.

 (Divine Duck Doesn't Desire Duality)

What a great motto. What a Universal Joke.

[everyone laughs]

My second choice would be belittlement of Salah - ul -Din. There were a lot of ul-Dins around besides Saladin.

Posted by: @djedi

that sort of thinking can really fuck you up if you don't do it right.

Aha! A second revilation! I always wondered where I went wrong.

 

 


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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30/07/2020 8:57 pm  
Posted by: @djedi

I'm not sure how much our might be able to analyze in this thread, as I never once detected more than the veneer of the philosophical in the exchanges we've had here. More follies than volleys in the jumbled language game we were playing, with shifting definitions and even, it seems to me, viewpoints for everything.

This is what i strongly suspected as he was doing it, but since my training in philosophy is very weak, i wanted to have someone who i know knows his onions speak up.

And i wanted to allow for the possibility that in fact something clever/useful, that was going over my head, was being said, however unlikely i thought this possibility.


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
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30/07/2020 8:59 pm  
Posted by: @djedi

a waking existence without the condition of consciousness, and without resorting to what he called the transcendental. But maybe he's better off, because that sort of thinking can really fuck you up if you don't do it right.

Yep.

 

Like staring at an aquarium and finding no aquarium and no self. And just being.

Anyone who has done even some basic 'sitting' and my old favourite was 'finding the trees in the light that their shadows left (castaneda)' the backwards technique, knows this. 

different ways of turning off consciousness. 

 

turning off not of. 


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The HGA of a Duck
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30/07/2020 9:02 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

D.D.D.D.D.

 (Divine Duck Doesn't Desire Duality)

You beat me to it with the "D.D.D.D.D". After being given the titles of "Saint Duck" and "Your Drakeness" I think its important to point out that these titles belong to the guy in my avatar pic and not the idiot at this computer terminal. I had the very same thought of "D.D.D.D.D", someone to aspire to.


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christibrany
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30/07/2020 9:03 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

What a great motto. What a Universal Joke.

*everybody laughs* 

I did. We both have dry humour. Maybe I am old. *croaks*

ribbit

 

LAShTAl Saloon is open for another 7 hours. 

Then it's pranayama time. 


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christibrany
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30/07/2020 9:03 pm  

@duck

You're in England right? But born Finnish? 

 

fish-ish? 


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The HGA of a Duck
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30/07/2020 9:18 pm  

@christibrany

That's right, lived there as a kid and have now spent most of my life here. Would like to return someday.


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christibrany
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30/07/2020 9:20 pm  

@duck

 

What is your Self to you?

 

Why is it your will to return to Finland?

My wife is abso-effing-lutely obsessed with Tarja Turnen.  Turenen? We watch her videos every weekend when we play 'music game' 

 

Note I didn't say Will. 


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Jamie J Barter
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30/07/2020 10:39 pm  
Posted by: @dom
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

but wherefore & whither your [reference to] onomatopoeia?  

.... the pounding of Michael's literary jabs upon my presence/ posts?  P-P-P-P-P? 

That is not onomatopoeia; that is alliteration with plosiveness of the breath.  Do you actually know what the "ono" in the "convo" is, dom?  As you haven't give the slightest indication that you seem to have any idea about it so far: you can google  it in more depth but basically it's a word which imitates the sound that it represents.  To try to return the thread back to a semblance of Thelemic bearing once again, two examples from The Book of the Law itself would be "Bahlasti" and "Ompehda" for the crackle of lightning and rumble of thunder (respectively)!

Posted by: @dom
Posted by: @dom

my presence/ posts?  P-P-P-P-P?   

Then there arose a mighty being, known as P.P. (Pee-Pee), ...

D.D.D.D.D.  What a great motto.  What a Universal Joke. ...

How about Z-Z-Z-Z-Z whom dom mentioned earlier, a great magister who spake "not" of the mysteries concerning deep sleep?

Posted by: @shiva

[signed] X

Marks the spot? Or, sealed with a loving kiss?

N Joy

 

 

 


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dom
 dom
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30/07/2020 10:47 pm  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

That is not onomatopoeia; that is alliteration with plosiveness of the breath.  

Yes I got it wrong guvnor. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Jamie J Barter
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30/07/2020 11:01 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

There were a lot of ul-Dins around besides Saladin.

I'm sure there must have been.  You'd only need to look them up in the directory...

Posted by: @christibrany

Like staring at an aquarium and finding no aquarium and no self. And just being.

Are you sure you're not just angling around here - just what is it you're fishing for?

Posted by: @christibrany

LAShTAl Saloon is open for another 7 hours. Then it's pranayama time. 

Is that because you managed to get its license reconfigured again?  When's the new Happy Hour?

Posted by: @dom

Yes I got it wrong guvnor. 

Is confession good for the soul? And declaring you've read Confessions hundreds of times wrong too?!

Questions, questions...

N Joy


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dom
 dom
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30/07/2020 11:05 pm  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter
Posted by: @dom

Yes I got it wrong guvnor. 

Is confession good for the soul? And declaring you've read Confessions hundreds of times wrong too?!

Questions, questions...

N Joy

Having read  The Confessions "hundreds of times" what every page? No, I never did, I made my own notes on each chapter which I still have and have referred to a lot over the years so yeah that statement was an exaggeration along the same lines of 'that was ages ago'.

How about you guvnor?  Why were you once banned from Lashtal? 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Jamie J Barter
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30/07/2020 11:31 pm  
Posted by: @dom

so yeah that statement was an exaggeration

Oh okay then, yah, sooper - 'sgreat we cleared that misunderstanding up then...

Posted by: @dom

How about you guvnor?  Why were you once banned from Lashtal? 

Was I?  You seem to know more about it than I do & it would help to know to what (post) you were referring - are you sure you're not talking about premoderation there, guv lower caste of person? 

Interr [ogat]ingly yours,

N Joy


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dom
 dom
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30/07/2020 11:35 pm  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

 

Posted by: @dom

How about you guvnor?  Why were you once banned from Lashtal? 

Was I?  You seem to know more about it than I do & it would help to know to what (post) you were referring - are you sure you're not talking about premoderation there, guv lower caste of person? 

Interr [ogat]ingly yours,

N Joy

I heard you were an argumentative Lashtal troll who got  banned?   Why are you clogging this thread with this?  Maybe you should start a new thread ; David lied through his teeth; he once said he read The Confessions "hundreds of times" but I disputed this.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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djedi
(@djedi)
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30/07/2020 11:51 pm  
Posted by: @dom

I heard you were an argumentative Lashtal troll who got  banned?

This is, what, the fourth person with whom you've tried starting a fight in the last twenty-four hours, dom?

I would hate to think the spirit of division has infested you, after so many others have been ran off for displaying it. Maybe my picture of the prophet was prophetically picturesque, and only now has its reality become manifest.


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Jamie J Barter
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30/07/2020 11:55 pm  
Posted by: @dom

I heard you were an argumentative Lashtal troll who got  banned?   Why are you clogging this thread with this?

Silly boy! I only mentioned Confessions lightly in passing; you're the one who's suddenly getting all "sensitive" about it...  

So, you're saying you only "heard" it (second hand): well without a more specific reference that I was ever a banned troll that's hear say all over again!

(I suppose you'll be wanting to have the last word on this again, too?)

Saying so's you'll hear it,

N Joy


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dom
 dom
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30/07/2020 11:58 pm  
Posted by: @djedi

 

This is, what, the fourth person with whom you've tried starting a fight in the last twenty-four hours, dom?

 

A fight?  Really?  Are you reading what I'm reading?

 

Jamie here is dredging up something I said months or years ago about me and I'm defending myself.  If it isn't on topic I'm not responding to it here.

 

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

 

Silly boy! I only mentioned Confessions lightly in passing; you're the one who's suddenly getting all "sensitive" about it...  

 

Oh?

 

You were joshing?  Maybe use emojis to improve your communication.  A poster wrote that you were a Lashtal troll.  Was It Chris?  I don't know, a few weeks ago or something, It was  hardly worth  documenting in a diary.  Anyway, again, if it isn't on topic I'm not responding to it here.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Jamie J Barter
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31/07/2020 12:25 am  
Posted by: @dom

You were joshing?  Maybe use emojis to improve your communication. 

Are you joshing here? And isn't "?!" sufficient enough to suggest levity?

Posted by: @dom

A poster wrote that you were a Lashtal troll.  Was It Chris?  I don't know, a few weeks ago or something, It was  hardly worth  documenting in a diary. 

It was Anubis.  I rapped his knuckles about spreading false accusations there too.  Obviously your (selective) memory's highly at fault with regard to that pertinent factor as well.

Posted by: @dom

Anyway, again, if it isn't on topic I'm not responding to it here.

Yes please don't (continue making a fool of yourself you sensitive shoot - nb, I said 'shoot' there).

N Joy


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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31/07/2020 1:55 am  
Posted by: @duck

my avatar pic and not the idiot at this computer terminal.

For the sake of your Soul, and the comfort of your Mind, let me remind you that the real Avatar is the idiot at the terminal. It's a Khabs in'a Khu thing. The LAShTAL et al digital border is merely an extension, a reflection of the Khabs getting into the Khu. DDDDD, in the olden AC-Bennett Qabalah was 5x4 = 20. Watta'ya make of that? And don't try that old "The Queen with Five Heads," either as a curse or as an explanation, please.

Posted by: @jjb

[signed] X    JB: Marks the spot? Or, sealed with a loving kiss?

"If the signer is unable to write his name, then he may sign with an "X," which must be further a-tested to by too (2) wit-nices." It's some fine-print clause from modern law.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I said 'shoot' there

Where did you get a gun?


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The HGA of a Duck
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31/07/2020 3:45 pm  
Posted by: @christibrany

my old favourite was 'finding the trees in the light that their shadows left (castaneda)

I was intrigued by this so I had to look it up, I never got very far with those books. Wow!

From some site:

In the case of looking at a tree or bush, what you know how to do is to focus immediately on the foliage. The shadows of the leaves or the spaces in between the leaves are never your concern.

Is that the kind of thing you are talking about? I think Intentionality is going on there. I only read the first 2 books years ago, I need to re-read them and the rest now.

 

Posted by: @christibrany

What is your Self to you?

 

Why is it your will to return to Finland?

Good questions, the first one is a bit of a puzzle isn't it. As to the second, at least one thing I can think of is the ritual of the Sauna, most Finns (all?) do this ritual at least once a week, growing up there I guess it got imprinted on my psyche.

 

Posted by: @christibrany

My wife is abso-effing-lutely obsessed with Tarja Turnen.  Turenen? We watch her videos every weekend when we play 'music game' 

What is, er, "music game"? Finns seem to like metal and the like. Most Finnish surnames end in -nen, its just a quirk of the language.

 


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
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31/07/2020 4:02 pm  
Posted by: @christibrany
Posted by: @christibrany

Like staring at an aquarium and finding no aquarium and no self. And just being.

Are you sure you're not just angling around here - just what is it you're fishing for?

Posted by:

I am trying to refute Xavier's claim that the Self cannot be aware, of being unaware.  In other words, with true Empty Mind, you can negate the Self, yet still 'know/see' your awareness.   Something like that.

a fish a fish a fish a fish feesh

image

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christibrany
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31/07/2020 4:05 pm  
Posted by: @duck

The shadows of the leaves or the spaces in between the leaves are never your concern.

Is that the kind of thing you are talking about

Pretty much.  Focus on the 'negative' (or shadow) of the plant.  Find the plant that exists on the 'other side'  . Conversely focus on the light in between the shadows as the 'negative' imprint.  don't focus on the object itself.  Another fun trick is staring at a mirror you have placed at the bottom of a stream.

Posted by: @duck

What is, er, "music game"? Finns seem to like metal and the like. Most Finnish surnames end in -nen, its just a quirk of the language.

 

We alternate live versions of our fave songs on Youtube loudly and dance and sing. Mosh. We are both big metal heads. 

I like saunas too.  Especially if there is a cold pool or snow nearby to jump in. 


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The HGA of a Duck
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31/07/2020 4:21 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

DDDDD, in the olden AC-Bennett Qabalah was 5x4 = 20. Watta'ya make of that?

Under 20 in Seph Seph:

The number of Abra-Melin
Servitors of Amaimon.

Fraternity
Black liquid
It was
The breast; a vision; a prophet;
to gaze
Jobab, an Edomite King
The hand

Out of those I'd cherry-pick (confirmation bias) "Fraternity" as the most relevant, meaning this can be my motto for the invisible and imaginary Fraternity we all belong to. Thanks for providing the words to the five D's.


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Shiva
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31/07/2020 6:12 pm  
Posted by: @christibrany

I am trying to refute Xavier's claim that the Self cannot be aware, of being unaware. 

Xavier left the building, and left you stuck in his web?

Don't you know that this type of reasoning/questioning/defining can lead to permanent insanity?

Posted by: @christibrany

In other words, with true Empty Mind, you can negate the Self, yet still 'know/see' your awareness.   Something like that.

Your "something like that," with only one minor adjustment, allows your elucidation to be a shining example of what happens. Xavier might shite a bricke and call you, "Stupid!"

There is a universal principle that supports your thesis, and it may help you solve the 7=4 equation:

There is awareness/consciousness at all levels of being
... including the highest.

Blackouts (no awareness) may be encountered at various points while riding up in the elevator (they protect the vehicle from overload or short-circuiting) ...

image

And they are always included in the nightly recharging cycle.

A person who equates deep snoozing with samadhi is confusing  the blackout circuit breaker void of no awareness with being empty yet awake.

 


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Michael Staley
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MANIO - it's all in the egg
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31/07/2020 8:11 pm  
Posted by: @djedi

My understanding of Nietzsche's critique of Descartes's Cogito, Ergo Sum is that it doesn't give the rational mind enough freedom. Just like jacking the Manas into Buddhi and Atma, I think it's completely possible for the rational mind to grasp the suprarational. It's the rationalizing of the suprarational, as a function of the rational mind, that's the problem.

 

I use the term "rational mind" myself, but I do wonder what is signified by this. For instance, as these words are typed, I am aware of the hum of the fan, the aroma from the cup of tea recently made, a taste of ginger biscuits in my mouth, the noise from the traffic outside, etc. There is a field of awareness regarded as "I", and there is a stream of perception being experiened. There's no rationality there, simply awareness of perception.

Mingled with the stream of perception are thoughts and reflections, which can of course be logical but is not necessarily so. For instance, I might start to think of a dream last night, or the experience of a meditation or a ceremony, or have an intuition.

Yes, I agree that the mind can experience the suprarational, but then I think that mind is neither rational nor suprarational by nature.


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djedi
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31/07/2020 8:18 pm  
Posted by: @duck

Is that the kind of thing you are talking about? I think Intentionality is going on there.

Alexius Meinong wrote about intentional states directed toward nonexistent objects, and their implications. But I don't think that's the point of Don Juan's exercise. I believe that, in observing the shadows of the leaves at the expense of seeing the leaves (or the light that touches the leaves), Don Juan is not intentionally sensing a nonexistent object, but using the shadows of the leaves to contemplate the negative existence of leaves, or leaves-that-aren't, which subsequently becomes contemplation of all-that-isn't (which can't be confused with nothing, if you follow). This rare state then serves as a vehicle.

Something like a Black Dharana (if I remember what dharana is, forgive me, I've said before that I'm not up on all the hindu/buddhist stuff).

I am reminded of "The Light that is Not" in Nightside of Eden.

Actually, now that I've skimmed over that chapter, maybe I should just shut up.


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djedi
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31/07/2020 8:30 pm  
Posted by: @michael-staley

I use the term "rational mind" myself, but I do wonder what is signified by this.

I used "rational mind" as a euphemism for the Platonic Logistikon, which I shied away from using outright because, though I consider it a more perfect and more beautiful formulation of what we're talking about, it doesn't translate well into the more common ideas that the average reader might know and utilize.

To try defining it haply and succinctly and in keeping with thelemic parlance, the Logistikon is that part of the self which arouses the condition that allows for thought, and then thinks, not to seek truth, but to allow truth to exist (if imperfectly) in the lower planes of existence. It is that which divides for love's sake, then descends the logos into the darkness, but also is the logos.

You might read that and realize why I shy away from using the word. But the point is, according to that cosmogony and ethos, the rational mind is not opposed to truth but is aligned with it, and is its channel.

 


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thearthuremerson
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31/07/2020 9:31 pm  
Posted by: @djedi

I'm not sure how much our @thearthuremerson might be able to analyze in this thread, as I never once detected more than the veneer of the philosophical in the exchanges we've had here. More follies than volleys in the jumbled language game we were playing, with shifting definitions and even, it seems to me, viewpoints for everything.

Quite right, @djedi, there's nothing (or at least so little as to be next to nothing) in OP's posts that would benefit from analysis of a philosophical kind, for the very reasons you point out here. 

Posted by: @ignant666

And i wanted to allow for the possibility that in fact something clever/useful, that was going over my head, was being said, however unlikely i thought this possibility.

No, nothing went over your head. OP's facility with and understanding of philosophical concepts is impoverished. For one simple example, OP suggested at one point that all of our moral intuitions are consequentialist. This is evidently not true, given the variety of non-consequentalist moral theories. Kant's deontology, for instance, seems at least in part motivated by the moral intuition that we ought not make exceptions of ourselves. OP's writing is, however, the best evidence. His initial post is a confusing mess. It's clear he has been in contact with philosophical ideas of many stripes, but since he has rather evidently never practiced articulating anything in a philosophical mode (or has at least had no expert feedback), he only sows confusion for himself and his readers.

I was a bit surprised to see that no one pointed out to him at the outset that while he purported to be asking a question, he did in fact do no such thing. Well, to be fair he asked two questions:

1. Any thoughts or suggestions about my question?

2. Does this question make sense to you?

To which I would be strongly inclined to respond singly to both, "what question?".

Observing this in his very first post, I knew what we were in for. He never came here with any interest in dialectic. I'm reminded of Socrates describing the Sophists Euthydemus and Dionysodorus as verbal pugilists - though this should not be to taken to suggest OP is a sophist in the Platonic sense -- that would be to heap too much praise on the confused young man. My initial intuition upon reading his initial post played out almost immediately -- it didn't take long for the insults to start flying.

I also recognized, as did @ignant666, that his initial post was rife with Losian prejudice. I find it unlikely in the extreme that OP doesn't know Los, or isn't at least very familiar with his writing.

A hypothesis:

The Order D∴K∴ requires as a part of some level of gradework that the initiate engage in a dialectical exchange in some public arena. I suspect that our house Lashtal, Reddit, and heruraha.net are among some of the suggested venues, for their being notorious dens of those foul supernaturalists. Moreover, they are expected to demonstrate a combative attitude -- recall that Los considered this kind of thing a virtue of debate, insisting that it produced better results overall. Erwin obviously held this view as well.

OP is an initiate of Order D∴K∴ and came here to duly perform the requirements of his gradework. If he is not formally an initiate, then I suggest he is spiritually cut from the same cloth. He has all of the following, likely non-exhaustive, list of attributes of an initiate of that order:

1. An inflated sense of self in all dimensions, e.g.

    a. A pretension of expertise or acuity in domains they rather obviously lack either in -- this is especially obvious to experts in those domains, and often even to those who aren't.

2. An lack of facility in the rational discourse they demand that others observe, e.g.

    a. An inability or unwillingness to counterargue.

    b. Question-begging gerrymandering of quotations. 

3. Ideological authoritarianism, e.g.

    a. Demanding specious or at least highly contentious definitions of terms of art. 

    b. The demand that the rational faculty is the only tool of value in understanding reality (thanks to @ignant666 for the phrasing here)

Editorially with respect to 3b - while it may be true that philosophy is the enemy magick, it is no a symmetric relation. 

(A related aside: A few months ago I began to work up notes for a paper exploring Crowley's famous quote about the relation between philosophy and magick. I think that it may be misunderstood. At the very least, I discovered that it's context alone is very interesting and worth shining some light on. I'm not sure when I will have the time to work the notes into a finished paper, but I will share it here on Lashtal just as soon as I do.)

 

Posted by: @shiva

You may wish to consult a psychologist before reading contagious material. You will certainly need one standing by after your perusal. Of course, you can just talk to the inner psycholist, or resort to auto-electro-shock-banishing- therapy.

On the other hand, if one's mind is merely put in neutral, even this Tuat can be navigated to its suicidal end (by the contender), or the triumphant rise of solar silliness (by the defenders of wu-wei and The Book of Lies).

With respect to his recent presence here, OP is little more than a weak avatar of Choronzon, don't you think? His power I suspect is constrained to sowing any dangerous confusion only in his own house, as it were. As for mine, such trifling entities don't seem to me to require banishing. They aren't allowed to cross the fence line. A terrifying solar silliness they wouldn't dare step into blazes on the yard and the house.

It's nice to have briefly returned. But I am immanently upward and onward to a forested mountain. I won't be gone long (enough). 

æ

Edit: one word before realizing I don't have the energy to correct any errors in this post.


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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31/07/2020 10:45 pm  

Than you so much, @thearthuremerson, for taking the time for this lengthy and useful response.

I was, as i said, pretty  (like 99.99%) sure he had no very good understanding of philosophy, but wanted to to ensure i wasn't, in my ignant-ness, missing something useful.

An interesting hypothesis re-drive by attack posts as an initiation rite- what does D.'. K.'. stand for?

Do you think our Spanish Comrade qualified as "doing work" for his order? [for any cowan: "doing work" is gangsta slang for "killing folks for the gang"]


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thearthuremerson
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31/07/2020 11:11 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

Than you so much, @thearthuremerson, for taking the time for this lengthy and useful response.

All my pleasure.

Posted by: @ignant666

An interesting hypothesis re-drive by attack posts as an initiation rite- what does D.'. K.'. stand for?

Dunning Kruger.

Posted by: @ignant666

Do you think our Spanish Comrade qualified as "doing work" for his order? [for any cowan: "doing work" is gangsta slang for "killing folks for the gang"]

I'm inclined to think he'd have failed the grade work, even by their standards. Whatever we may think of Los and Erwin, they are clear writers and generally present their views coherently. But what do I know? I'd fail him, for whatever that's worth.

Sorry for the brevity. Ascending the mountain now and typing on a phone is insufferable. 

 


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ignant666
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31/07/2020 11:24 pm  
Posted by: @thearthuremerson

Dunning Kruger.

Duh. I may be offered initiation by them any day, if i keep up like that.


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Jamie J Barter
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01/08/2020 2:24 am  
Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @jjb

[signed] X    JB: Marks the spot? Or, sealed with a loving kiss?

"If the signer is unable to write his name, then he may sign with an "X," which must be further a-tested to by too (2) wit-nices." It's some fine-print clause from modern law.

Interestingly - or synchronistically - I was originally going to have added "Or 'His mark'?" as one of the possible options and thought I had done so.  But it mysteriously seems to have disappeared.  Woo woo!

Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I said 'shoot' there

Where did you get a gun?

From Annie, once she'd finished with it.

Posted by: @michael-staley

I use the term "rational mind" myself, but I do wonder what is signified by this. For instance, as these words are typed, I am aware of the hum of the fan, the aroma from the cup of tea recently made, a taste of ginger biscuits in my mouth, the noise from the traffic outside, etc. There is a field of awareness regarded as "I", and there is a stream of perception being experiened. There's no rationality there, simply awareness of perception.

But not just simply: isn't there arguably also a (rational) recognition of what has been perceived - allowing one to make a distinction between e.g. the phenomenon of a ginger as distinct from say a chocolate biscuit - and an ability or tendency to label it (them) as such?

N Joy


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Shiva
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01/08/2020 6:22 am  
Posted by: @thearthuremerson

I was a bit surprised to see that no one pointed out to him at the outset that while he purported to be asking a question, he did in fact do no such thing.

Oh, I pointed it out to him ... twice. I said that he opened the thread with a question, but within 3 posts he was giving a sermon ... and negating all responses to his "question(s)."

Posted by: @thearthuremerson

I would be strongly inclined to respond singly to both, "what question?".

His original question was asking for definitions of "Will" and "Self" in relation to "Thelema."

Posted by: @thearthuremerson

The Order D∴K∴

Please extend the D and the K for those of us who either have dead synapses, or never heard the initials before.

Posted by: @thearthuremerson

With respect to his recent presence here, OP is little more than a weak avatar of Choronzon, don't you think?

Right on.

Posted by: @thearthuremerson

I don't have the energy to correct any errors in this post.

I have that problem too, sometimes. Spleen Qi Deficiency. The thinking principle, when focused, draws more Qi from the Spleen than air conditioners do from the Grue Grid.

 


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Tiger
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Michael Staley
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01/08/2020 9:45 am  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

But not just simply: isn't there arguably also a (rational) recognition of what has been perceived - allowing one to make a distinction between e.g. the phenomenon of a ginger as distinct from say a chocolate biscuit - and an ability or tendency to label it (them) as such?

I'm not up with the current understanding of how sensory perception "recognises" objects, but the speed at which this must be done makes it unlikely in my view for it to be an act of rationality. It's an interesting process, that's for sure.


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Shiva
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01/08/2020 5:34 pm  

 

"... cognitive bias of illusory superiority and comes from the inability of people to recognize their lack of ability."

The Divine Order of Overestimation. I see. I understand that people with this "effect" (syndrome) often go to work for the government.

Posted by: @michael-staley

I'm not up with the current understanding of how sensory perception "recognises" objects

It's an electro-chemical reaction that fires off a nerve ... with an electric message ... that is (as you say, "but the speed ...") faster than a speeding bullet rationally thinking about anything.

 


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djedi
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01/08/2020 8:45 pm  
Posted by: @djedi

Logistikon

And bear in mind that, in this school, the "ruach" is no longer the gross intellect as the cabalist conceives it, but a pneumatic interlocutor between the aetheric and the elemental. Engrafted naturally to the soul upon its descent to the world, it cannot be dissolved in the world as nihilists wish, but must be made to reascend with the soul. Synesius wrote about this in some places, but it would take some effort on my part to recall precisely where. De insomniis is one, I think.

Posted by: @michael-staley

I'm not up with the current understanding of how sensory perception "recognises" objects, but the speed at which this must be done makes it unlikely in my view for it to be an act of rationality.

The rational mind (not the Logistikon, here) would not recognize the object, but the sense-perceptions "touching" the object. So you're correct in saying that the object itself and its nature is apprehended according to a function more-than-rational, but which (I must interject) can work in harmony with the rational.

Posted by: @ignant666

Duh. I may be offered initiation by them any day, if i keep up like that.

 I thought it stood for Donkey Kong.


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Shiva
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02/08/2020 1:26 am  
Posted by: @djedi

its nature is apprehended according to a function more-than-rational

This is called the "Pre-conscious," a term not found in Thelemic Lit (that I have seen).

Posted by: @djedi

I thought it stood for Donkey Kong.

It is a weell-known abbreviation among those on the Yin stream of the White Brotherhood: It is the oft-used initials of The Tibetan Djwhal Khul. However, I have shown in two places (one video, 1 book) how (today) he does not exist, except as a benevolent egregore [sic?].

.

 


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dom
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02/08/2020 11:51 am  

I think Arthur may be correct in his suspicion that, although he denied it when confronted, fantasy ass-kicker has consumed Los's and Hessle's ideas.  The OP's central theme is about 'preferences' and their relation to True Will which was a major preoccupation of Los and Hessle's brand of Thelema . 

Perhaps decide for yourself, check this out from Los's blog it's all about the Khabs, the Khu as "mind/body complex" and all talks of "authentic inclinations and preferences" involved therein and it ouches on morality (scroll down to the emboldened What is the practitioner trying to accomplish?";

https://thelema-and-skepticism.blogspot.com/2012/07/gems-from-forums-iv-crystal-clear.html#more

This in turn, imo would've been inspired by this essay;

http://www.erwinhessle.com/writings/khabkhu.php

.....and here are excerpts from the  OP which contains almost identical ideas;

 Khu is composed of our perceptions of the world, our memory, our mind and our emotions. These are all objects being witnessed by a Self, so they cannot be the Self.........

and this ;

. The aim is not so much to see what the Self is, but how it behaves. This dynamic aspect is the Will, which is synonymous with the essential preferences of the Self. So with this model we are not trying to offer explanations about the essence of the Self, but a mere description of its dynamic nature...... 

If 1) the Self is not the Khu, and 2) the aim of Thelema is to know your Will and do it, then the kernel of the practice consists in observing how the Self behaves beyond the Khu (knowing your Will) and how to express its nature through the Khu (doing your Will).

 

This next bit continuing with the 'preferences' theme was his own attempt to set traps and gotchas;

 

Problem: preferences also arise as an object being witnessed by my Self. Therefore, my preferences cannot be my Self. To say that my preferences reveal the behaviour of my Self in this sense is an unjustified assumption and a naïve personification of it.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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dom
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02/08/2020 12:18 pm  
Apologies for double post but I just wanted to document Ignan't mystical ESP foresight powers (sic) as he predicts how the fantasy ass-kicker's behaviour would pan out; 
 
 
Posted by: @ignant666   

written on  16/07/2020 5:14 pm 

I wish that some day we could get one of these apostles of the rational mind, and "authentic preferences", in here seeking "conversations", who had actually at least completed freshman philosophy at a decent university. We never do.

And they always come in, vainglorious, and with their guns ablazin', and yet somehow always soon after retreat whimpering and moaning to themselves "Them Gullible Thelemites don't fight fair no kinda way! They used logic, and also mockery, and would not acknowledge my Keen Intellect! Waaah!"

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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02/08/2020 3:10 pm  

It is all very well for us all to be patting each other on the back at repelling this invader, but i think we would be remiss if we did not acknowledge that he has significantly expanded the intellectual limits and discourse of "Skeptical Thelema".

Previous advocates have discussed "authentic preferences" using the example of liking coffee, whereas the Spaniard Of Keen Intellect discussed his "authentic preference" for avoiding raw tomatoes. So these "authentic preferences" that constitute True Will can be both positive, and negative, "preferences". I think this significant expansion of "Skeptical" thought deserves appropriate credit.

This proves that it is just not true that "Skeptical Thelema" consists of a very superficial and poorly understood understanding of a few informal logical fallacies, and the constant assertion that any opponent is committing them (while blind to their own constant howlers), the same two or three tired claims (asserted without any evidence, and in fact in contradiction to most of what neuroscience tells us), and the endless repetition of slogans ("We reject claims asserted without evidence" (other than our own claims, of course), "Experience has no explanatory power", etc.), and jargon ("spacemen", "goblins", "the fruitcake factory", etc).

It is in fact a vibrant and fertile School Of Thought.


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hadgigegenraum
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02/08/2020 4:48 pm  

@ignant666

A proper thought experiment, upon something that Robert Anton Wilson advocated, would be for you to act as a 'skeptical thelemite', but considering your training, argue without the logical fallacies that you have identified. Thus your intellect could be employed to see if there are things of value upon such explorations in 'wearing the other guy's hat' and likewise fun could ensue as someone else acts as though they were Ignant666 just to ensure that the exchange is indeed taking place on the LASHTAL forums...


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dom
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02/08/2020 5:00 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

Previous advocates have discussed "authentic preferences" using the example of liking coffee, whereas the Spaniard Of Keen Intellect discussed his "authentic preference" for avoiding raw tomatoes. So these "authentic preferences" that constitute True Will can be both positive, and negative, "preferences". I think this significant expansion of "Skeptical" thought deserves appropriate credit.

........

It is in fact a vibrant and fertile School Of Thought.

Haharr..  We know the Master is New Yorker with a PhD.  Is he perhaps one of these guys below?

 

https://as.nyu.edu/english/people/faculty.html

 

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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02/08/2020 5:02 pm  

I said many times in my wars with S.'. H.'. Fra. Dr. Los 8=3 PhD that their ideas are not at all far from where i was at in my early 20s, as a materialist atheist Thelemite. There is some value in their approach.

Where i totally part company with them, and what got me started counter-posting to The Phallus Of A Goat, is in their ludicrous, and obviously false, claim that AC himself consistently rejected "goblins" and "spacemen", and consistently exalted rationality and logic as the sole path to understanding and illumination, and was consistently a materialist atheist who rejected the "supernatural", and regarded the evidence of the senses as infallible (except when the senses detect any "goblins" or "spacemen", of course).

All these are clearly not true, starting with the very silly claim that AC consistently said any one thing. I always said that, if they started a new system based on their materialist/rationalist/atheist lines, i might sign up. But calling that system "Crowley's real Thelema" is just historically false, and making fun of folks who understand Thelema the way AC's students and disciples did can't change that.

The other thing that always has annoyed me about "Skeptical Thelema" is that, as folks who claim to exalt logic and science above all else, they are universally piss-poor at logical reasoning (while, due to their D.'. K.'. Initiations, smugly convinced they are very good at this), and rather impressively ignorant of "the method of Science", or any of its findings not communicated to them in high school, or by the popular press.


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ignant666
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02/08/2020 5:31 pm  

Edit/addition that timed out: To (perhaps for the first time) clarify my current position: i don't believe in any "supernatural" things, since such things by definition can't exist/occur. The definition of "natural" phenomena is "all the things that can happen or can be experienced". Things that happen or are experienced can't be "supernatural".

I have experienced communication with praeterhuman entities, visions, trances etc, that are difficult or impossible to explain/reconcile with current materialist, or scientific, paradigms, or models.The early ones were mostly associated with use of psychedelics in ritual contexts. Then they began happening without assistance by external agents.

This does not trouble me an iota- the purpose of scientific models, paradigms, and theories is not to delimit or define what it is possible to experience, but to help us understand and integrate experience in ways that are useful to us in future.

These "supernatural" experiences are as "real" as quotidian life, and as unreal. What might be "really" "real" is what remains when you silence/shut down both those things. Possibly you can get from quotidian reality to that silence without a stage where things get very screwy. This didn't happen that way to AC, and it didn't happen that way to me.

First the mountain is the mountain, and the lake is the lake.

Then the mountain is not the mountain, and the lake is not the lake.

Then the mountain is the mountain, and the lake is the lake.

Your mileage may vary.

Many folks are very impressed by the screwy stuff when it happens, and get stuck in the glamours and "special effects" of this stage, and fail to move on. These folks are what are known as "nuts", or "woo-woos", or "the large majority of occultists who have done any work at all". Making fun of those folks is useful, and fun. Doing so is is the service aspect of "Skeptical Thelema".


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Shiva
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02/08/2020 6:19 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

So these "authentic preferences" that constitute True Will ...

It was my impression that the driver-by who parked a bit,  X of Moreno, specifically mentioned that  Desires an Pre-ferences were located at Netzach, and were reflections of the True Will (at Chesed? or Chokmah?) and therefore said prefs were ok.

The problem is, said reflections are just that: They reflect. Reflections are subject to distortion. Since there is no perfect reflection, then all reflections are distortions ... and so they cannot be the True anything (Will, Self, Tomato).

It was disclosed in the Class A/B extravaganza, Liber 418, that ...

That which is Above is NOT like that which is Below,

Following the reflection is just another definition of The Left Hand Path.

Posted by: @ignant666

It is in fact a vibrant and fertile School Of Thought.

"Vibrant" suggests standing out, while "fertile" indicates that it is capable of being reproduced. That is, spreading, like a viral corona. We may therefore label it "reasonable," as well as "dangerous."

The entire spectrum of Skeptic-AL Thelema is governed by Reason and the Linear Mind, which is good if you're fixing your bike or baking a cake. But the AL in Skeptic-AL says,

"Reason is a lie ..."

For there is a Factor infinite and unknown.

This "factor" is called woo-woo by the rationalists, which is known to us as wu-wei.

Both the woo-woo and the wu-wei transcend reason, and are thus completely unacceptable to skeptics. They will not lose their mind; they will not pass away.

In terms of identifying exponents of The Left Hand Path, there are two markers:

a) An aggressive, condescending persona, and
b) No sense of humor.

If one (anyone) were to keep these two factors in mind, plus the infinite factor watching silently from the balcony, why there'd be no reason to ever get fooled again.


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The HGA of a Duck
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02/08/2020 6:36 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

For there is a Factor infinite and unknown

8 cell orig

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Shiva
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02/08/2020 7:38 pm  

Duckness. Yes, that is a good, dynamic glyph that illustrates the point in view when it is kept just out of site.

"There is no place to hide from truth. People either break down, unable to cope with the enormity of their knowledge, which leads to high rates of suicide and vandalism, or else they ride the tide." - Book of Life

 


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hadgigegenraum
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03/08/2020 5:55 pm  

@ignant666

Thanks for the clarifications as it is  relevant to note that your critiques come from an insider's perspective to begin with.

One thought that comes to mind is concerns this issue of apparent, or argued dichotomy, relative to the appearance of that which would be logically labeled, as woo-woo, etc, Etc...and thus in effect libeled...or put into a classification that thus enacts a certain ring-pass-not cage of logic around such said experiences that are invariably of a subjective nature and thus not necessarily real.

Now that said, and discussions about this do concern issues upon human epistemology and the nature of what science is, but rather than going there, here is my concern and hypothesis relative to Mr. Crowley:

Could it be that Crowley's self developed skepticism, a conscious governor upon his subconscious ideations, his id, such that by his willful exercise of such skepticism that paradoxically he was actually more inclined to actually have experiences that would be classified as 'woo-woo', though such 'woo-woo' was inclined towards control through classification as evidenced by Qabalah...?

Such and inquiry is not new, and I am sure with Crowley's case we have to combine the fact that certain practices and predisposition, utilized skepticism as more of a masque with which to indulge his id with various indulgences of sublime and or infernal aspects of the 'woo-woo' to which, upon documentation, review was made and evaluations of considered, including accompanying means to which the senses may be effected by the arsenal of perfumes as distillations of material, matter, of atomistic signatures given play in the unbound retort turned the subject into the crucible of a transformation....not woo woo at all of course....

I wonder if Crowley ever worked with the homeopathic repertoire. Most skeptics dismissing homeopathy are scared to actually be induced by a signature that is not supposed to be there, but could elicit a most definitive 'proving' that can be the very definition of temporary insanity.

Thanks

HG


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dom
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03/08/2020 11:37 pm  
Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

@ignant666

 

One thought that comes to mind is....argued dichotomy, relative to .... woo-woo, , ...and thus in effect..... put into a classification that thus enacts a certain ring-pass-not cage of logic around such said experiences that are invariably of a subjective nature and thus not necessarily real.

What are you asking here?  

 

The issue isn't whether far-out experiences are real or not or how we should classify them.  The term "woo-woo" was used earlier to refer to a certain person and not "woo woo" the experience.   The issue is those who fail to detach from their self-images.   They are nutters to begin with and shouldn't have touched acid or occultism.    Set, setting, dosage.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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