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wellreadwellbred
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03/08/2018 10:58 am  

Sex magick and Thelema are two different things. One has nothing to do with the other. (Source: http://thelemite-blog.tumblr.com/page/2)

Do you agree or disagree with the statement that Sex magick has nothing to do with Thelema, and why do you agree or disagree with this statement?

My position is that Crowley was the author of The Book of the Law, the first among the Holy Books of his Thelema. And when another of these Holy Books, that is Liber 66 or Liber Stellae Rubeae about Sex Magick, according to Crowley was "delivered unto" him "for his use in a certain matter of Liber Legis" [= the said The Book of the Law], Crowley's just quoted own words give med reason to disagree with the statement that Sex magick has nothing to do with Thelem.

"The Best of the Equinox, Sex Magick Volume III [...] This volume presents the bulk of Crowley’s written works on the subject and includes The Gnostic Mass, Energized Enthusiasm, Liber A’ash, Liber Chath, and Liber Stellae Rubeae." (Source: The Best of the Equinox, Sex Magick Volume III - - - http://redwheelweiser.com/detail.html?id=9781578635719)

"The Holy Books are the foundation of the mystical, magical and religious system known as Thelema which declares that there is no law beyond do what thou wilt! Included in this collection of remarkable visionary texts is the sublimely beautiful Liber Liberi vel Lapidis Lazuli; Liber LXV – Cordis Cincti Serpente; Liber LXVI: Stellae Rubeae; Liber A’ash and of course The Book of the Law [Liber Al vel Legis] ..." (Source: http://ghostblooms-van-asten.blogspot.com/2009/12/book-reviews-by-barry-van-asten.html).

Liber 66, written Nov. 25, 1907, Liber Stellae Rubeae. A secret ritual of Apep, the heart of IAO-OAI, delivered unto V.V.V.V.V. for his use in a certain matter of Liber Legis [= The Book of the LAw] and written down under the figure LXVI. Sexual Magick veiled in symbolism.

Liber 156, written 1911, Liber Cheth vel Vallum Abiegni. A perfect account of the task of the Exempt Adept considered under the Symbols of a particular plane, not the intellectual. Sexual magick veiled in symbolism.

Liber 370, written 1911, Liber A’ash vel Capricorni Pneumatici. Analyzes the nature of the creative magical force in man, explains how to awaken it, how to use it and indicates the general as well as the particular objects to be gained thereby. Sexual magick veiled in symbolism. (Source: Holy Books of Thelema - - - http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/Holy_Books_of_Thelema, Libri of Aleister Crowley - - - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libri_of_Aleister_Crowley, plus Richard Kaczynski's and James Wasserman's The Weiser Concise Guide to Aleister Crowley, page 66, Chronology of the Class A Writings).


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pegasus
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03/08/2018 2:15 pm  

I can't fully answer this with my own opinion as it is not fully formulated yet. I will say though that I have a fair idea that it does play a very important part in the scheme of thelema.

Example being Kundalini stirring and me mistaking it for myself causing it as such but soon observing that it is others seemingly purposely causing it to rise inside me.

That might sound strange and I do want to observe it and analyse it more but then I don't like going out at the moment because reasons.

Last night I went out to dinner with cancerman was all fine for ages until after dinner I was playing a machine and suddenly I could feel kundalini stirring throbbing as such which was strange and so I became more aware than normal and examined what was happening. I easily traced it to the guy standing behind me, about a minute after it started I began to feel very weak and foggy and just as I was realising that I was suddenly feeling weak and very foggy, the same guy behind me playing a hearts machine started yelling with glee and his machine went crazy with a $4900 dollar major jackpot. He then turned to me to fist pump me and his hand was wrapped around a thick wad of fifty dollar notes probably more than his jackpot. Might of been innocent but I don't think so. I think he took magnetic energy from me sexually and I can't visually see it but certainly felt it. I went outside to get fresh air and the same thing happened again nearly knocking me out with weakness and I turned around and a guy in a wheelchair with one leg was staring at me. There was definitely an energy loss. I came home and did some yoga to get my body back to normal but I was still foggy. Piscesman used to do the same thing, I didn't love him but he used a red power current on to me that felt sooo good and that one I could see visibly.

So yeah needs more work to gain knowledge to protect as well as use and to fully answer this question which has been on my mind. Also thanks for the reading material.


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Tiger
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03/08/2018 2:25 pm  

Patrick Campbell writes like Los .
I guess another Hassle Clone .
I disagree with the statement that Sex magick has nothing to do with Thelema;
because it might .


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wellreadwellbred
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04/08/2018 12:52 am  

pegasus: "Also thanks for the reading material."

You're welcome.

The thread titled, Colin Wilson’s “Aleister Crowley: The Nature of the Beast”, covers much about Sex Magick, starting on the first page with a posting by belmurru, mentioning that sex magic is the only ‘magic’ Crowley refers to in his autobiography Confessions before joining The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (an organization devoted to the study and practice of the occult, metaphysics, and paranormal activities) in 1898. (Source: https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/colin-wilsons-aleister-crowley-the-nature-of-the-beast/#post-102658).

The same thread does also cover that Aleister Crowley doing ritual work with Sex magick, was something that led up to the writing of his The Book of the Law. (Source: https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/colin-wilsons-aleister-crowley-the-nature-of-the-beast/page/2/#post-102675)


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Horemakhet
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04/08/2018 1:35 am  

'Sex magick' gave birth to 'Thelema', on every level starting with the coinage of the term by Rabelais, who was responding directly to certain tendencies within his church. The satirism of those eclesiastical powers within the realm of their own dogma & ritual called back to earlier humour over the same matter, centuries earlier, in Roman times & literature. The point of using a Greek word over Latin in this case was meant to signal the schism between opposing parties at that time. Lifting a phrase from St. Augustine is just being cute.


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Jamie J Barter
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04/08/2018 2:01 am  

Sex magick and Thelema are two different things. One has nothing to do with the other.
Does this mean then, that celibates and those unable for some physical reason of getting it on (being erotically and potently charged, orgasmic etc) are therefore automatically incapable of being, or ever becoming, practising Thelemites?

I disagree with the statement that Sex magick has nothing to do with Thelema; because it might .
And -- it might not!? Then I agree (that it has everything to do with it?!) er I think... (therefore I am),

Phew! This debate is sizzling!
Norma N Joy Conquest

PS Also, just where might Patrick Campbell/ Los come into it?


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wellreadwellbred
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04/08/2018 6:48 pm  

Jamie J Barter: "Does this mean then, that celibates and those unable for some physical reason of getting it on (being erotically and potently charged, orgasmic etc) are therefore automatically incapable of being, or ever becoming, practising Thelemites?"

Why should it mean that?

On the title page of Liber Stellae Rubeae Crowley has written "A secret ritual of Apep, the heart of IAO-OAI, delivered unto V.V.V.V.V. for his use in a certain matter of Liber Legis." More on which "certain matter of Liber Legis" Crowley is referring to: https://books.google.no/books?id=_A23t1hGFwUC&pg=PA173&lpg=PA173&dq=%22delivered+unto+V.V.V.V.V.%22&source=bl&ots=TKeyPwUiQG&sig=tig4plidWCqbEiYq-TmRhzs0Ark&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDiZuM7NPcAhVCLZoKHX1_BCUQ6AEwA3oECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22delivered%20unto%20V.V.V.V.V.%22&f=false

"My comment is that Crowley with the words “A Certain Matter of LIBER LEGIS”, refers to “his use” of what Liber Legis describes both as “in his woman called the Scarlet Woman is all power given.” (AL I:15.), and as “the Scarlet Concubine of his desire!” (AL III:14)." (Source: https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/crowley-and-the-holy-books/page/2/#post-88735)


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Tiger
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04/08/2018 9:34 pm  

PS Also, just where might Patrick Campbell/ Los come into it?

a “taste” of Los from the link wellreadandgoodbread put up .

“Now, sex magick is essentially the creation of “magic” using sex. Practitioners have the silly notion that sex can open doors to different planes; is the key to some kind of salvation; and usually believe that sex unlocks all manner of special powers. If we set aside all such nonsense, sex magick is simply another fetish or group of fetishes. Interestingly, in my experience, it is something that often attracts those with repressive histories around sex and sexuality.”
- Inkhorn theme by PT Campbell -


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ignant666
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04/08/2018 9:43 pm  

The tone is certainly similar, but i can't recall He Who Is No Man ever mentioning sex in any way, shape, or form. I don't think it's Him.

My guess is that PT Campbell might post here as MoogPlayer. This is based on the fact that i don't think he is either Pope Hassle, or The Phallus Of A Goat, and surely there can't be more than three of these "Septic Thelema" folks?!?!


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wellreadwellbred
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05/08/2018 10:42 pm  

Horemakhet: "‘Sex magick’ gave birth to ‘Thelema’, on every level ..."

Within his book Liber L. Vel Bogus - The Real Confession of Aleister Crowley, Richard T. Cole claims that Crowley's 'Cairo Revelation' in 1904 pertained exclusively to Sex Magick:

“… the Cairo Revelation pertained exclusively to his awareness of a new occult methodology, Sex Magick (“Sex Magick based on stele imagery (Cole page 232).”), and not [not is underlined by Cole] Liber L. vel Legis (= The Book of the Law), which isn’t even mentioned (Cole page 87).” […] “Precisely as is recorded in Crowley’s primary source notebooks, he left Cairo with only the occult ‘tool’ required to destroy Mathers. This is explicitly clear from two deleted comments, “the ritual is of sex” and “Revelation of ritual to consecrate talismans of XXII against G.’.D.’.” Only on completion of this precursor does Crowley get to form his own Magickal Link and, therefore, rightfully (in accordance with occult tradition) assume control of the Golden Dawn (Cole page 114, 115, and 178-182).”


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ignant666
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05/08/2018 11:10 pm  

Would it be possible, wellreadwellbred, to set up a separate thread called something like "Crowley the lying fraud forged the fake AL" and confine your postings on that topic to that one thread, instead of posting such material in almost every thread on this forum?

Your agenda is clear; it is equally clear that few agree with you.

It becomes tedious when you insist on shoehorning this stuff into discussions of every arguably related topic.


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wellreadwellbred
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06/08/2018 9:17 pm  

Richard T. Cole's claim that Crowley’s ‘Cairo Revelation’ in 1904 pertained exclusively to Sex Magick, is relevant to this thread, as I started this thread with the question "Do you agree or disagree with the statement that Sex magick has nothing to do with Thelema, and why do you agree or disagree with this statement?"

I disagree with the complicated and conspiratorial story used by Richard T. Cole in his book Liber L. Vel Bogus. A story used to "explain" why Crowley did not use some September 1907 galley proofs of an intended Appendix to his Collected Works (an appendix where the manuscript to The Book of the Law is described as “… a highly interesting example of genuine automatic writing.”).

And a story used to "explain" why Crowley waited until the March 1912 puclication of Equinox I, 7, to premiere his reception story. (Second Corrected Edition of Cole’s said book page 183 and 189). "as delivered by LXXVIII [= 78] to DCLXVI [= 666]", are words presented in the said Equinox edition as contained within "The full title of" this The Book of the Law. The same Equinox edition does with regard to the writing of this The Book of the Law, contain the following statement: "Fra. P. will only say that it is in no way automatic writing, that he heard clearly and distinctly the human articulate accents of a man."

The psychical researcher Thomson Jay Hudson did in a book published in 1893, titled The law of psychic phenomena: a working hypothesis for the systematic study of hypnotism, spiritism, mental therapeutics, etc., claim that no spirits are involved in automatic writing and the subconscious mind is the explanation.

Crowley eventually deciding to insist on that his The Book of the Law was dictated to him by someone besides himself, and that it was in no way the result of automatic writing on his part, was a convenient way for him to deny taking personal responsibility for its content.

A likely and obvious reason for this is that he was very scared for being outed as a practicing homosexual, at that time a criminal offence that had two years’ hard labour as the maximum sentence in England. And his The Book of the Law does quite openly advocate forbidden sex acts, for example in Chapter I, verse 51; “… take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! …”.

Another example is his Liber 66, written Nov. 25, 1907, Liber Stellae Rubeae, containing Sexual Magick veiled in symbolism. The veiled passages of Liber 66 describe a sexual ritual with his current mistress, a woman by the name of Ada Leverson, whose name appears as an acronym of the first two lines:

"Apep deifieth Asar. Let excellent virgins evoke rejoicing, son of Night!"

By subtitling his Liber 66 as "delivered unto V.V.V.V.V.", Crowley could deny taking personal responsibility for its content.

More on why it would be convenient for Crowley that he could deny taking personal responsibility for the content of his Liber 66, Liber Stellae Rubeae: "LIBER STELLAE RUBEAE {WEH NOTE: The manner of sacrifice is veiled. This is a ritual of sexual sacrifice, not murder. There are suggestions that the sexual act involved both homosexual and heterosexual acts illegal in England at the time of the writing, hence it is characterized under a metaphor of "child sacrifice". See also the Paris Working and Vision and Voice.}" (Source: http://www.the-equinox.org/vol1/no7/eqi07006.html)

"12. Sacrifice cattle, little and big: after a child." "24. The best blood is of the moon, monthly: then the fresh blood of a child, [...]." "25. This burn: of this make cakes & eat unto me. ..." The preceding words quoted from his The Book of the Law (Chapter III, verse 12, 24, and 25), would make it convenient for Crowley that he could deny taking personal responsibility for the content of this book.


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ignant666
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06/08/2018 9:30 pm  

Yes, we have read your posts, wrwb. They are all about the same thing, at least expressed here more clearly than usual.

Thank you for your contribution.

Nonetheless, i suggest you confine future posts on your sole topic to a single thread.

How about “The lying liar Crowley, homosexual sodomite, and fake spiritual master, a fake and fraudulent fraud, forged the fake and phony AL” as a thread title?

Would that about sum up your concerns with AC's work?


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wellreadwellbred
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07/08/2018 10:17 pm  

ignant666: "Would that about sum up your concerns with AC’s work?"

No, in this thread I take into regard a larger cultural context with respect to Crowley's claims that his The Book of the Law and his Liber 66 were delivered to him. And I am sympathetic to him as a practicing homosexual at that time, by pointing out that it would be convenient for Crowley that he could deny taking personal responsibility for the content of the said books. With respect to Liber 66 because "there are suggestions that the sexual act involved both homosexual and heterosexual acts illegal in England at the time of the writing, [...]" (Source: http://www.the-equinox.org/vol1/no7/eqi07006.html) And with respect to The Book of the Law because it quite openly advocates sex acts illegal in England at the time of the writing, for example in Chapter I, verse 51; “… take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! …”.


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ignant666
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08/08/2018 12:32 am  

a practicing homosexual at that time [emphasis added]

"Practicing" by that late date?

Surely by then he'd had enough "practice" to get it right?


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Jamie J Barter
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08/08/2018 1:22 am  

@wellreadwelllbred :

And with respect to The Book of the Law because it quite openly advocates sex acts illegal in England at the time of the writing, for example in Chapter I, verse 51; “… take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! …”

No it doesn't! It's talking about love --- and as we know, there are love and love. However it does not say (for example): "take your fill and will of anal sex as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will", does it? (And nor does it say "how ye will" either. which arguably might at a squeeze fit in per vas nefandum...)

(Not) reading between the lines,
N Joy


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ignant666
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08/08/2018 1:35 am  

which arguably might at a squeeze fit in per vas nefandum… [emphasis added]

I saw what you did there, as the kids say.


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wellreadwellbred
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08/08/2018 8:30 am  

Jamie J Barter: "(And nor does it say “how ye will” either. which arguably might at a squeeze fit in per vas nefandum…)"

The Book of the Law, "Chapter I, verse 51; “… take your fill and will of love as ye will, ..."

"as you wish - definition and synonyms [...] Phrase spoken formal [...]
1 used for telling someone that they can do or have whatever they want
Of course. As you wish, sir. [...]
2 used for telling someone to do what they want, even though it is not what you want them to do"
(Source: https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/as-you-wish)

The above definition of "as you wish", adapted to Crowley's The Book of the Law's (Chapter I, verse 51) "as ye will":
1 used for telling us all that we can do or have whatever we will(, with respect to love.)
2 used for telling us all to do what we will(, with respect to love), even though it is not what others want us all to do


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Jamie J Barter
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08/08/2018 7:52 pm  

*Sigh!* I notice, wrwb, that you make no reference at all whatsoever to the main point I made in the remainder of the post in question (=that there was no reference at all made whatsoever to any illegal acts in the verse which you quoted) but prefer instead to zero in on one sentence, of a parenthetical nature, where you obviously felt yourself to be on safer ground. I concede, you could offer up that interpretation which you gave there: as it stands it would not be incorrect; however speaking for myself my first thought wouldn't be so much that, as that "take your fill and will as ye will" rather means, "take your fill and will according to whatever circumstances you may find yourself in", i.e. sort of a more que sera sera type of thing.. And as stated, I would think that"... how ye will" would have drawn the matter out further, insofar as it might relate to any sexual technique(s) involved (e.g., p.f.n.).

N Joy


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wellreadwellbred
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11/08/2018 12:18 am  

The Book of the Law, Chapter III, 24. "The best blood is of the moon, monthly: then the fresh blood of a child, or dropping from the host of heaven: then of enemies; then of the priest or of the worshippers: last of some beast, no matter what."

The preceding words quoted from Crowley's The Book of the Law (the first among the Holy Books of his Thelema), were understood by him as refefring to Sex Magick, a fact which also gives me reason to disagree with the statement that Sex magick has nothing to do with the Thelema associated with him.

"Blood of the moon = menstrual blood.

Fresh blood of a child = mingled sexual fluids collected after an act of sacremenatal sex.

Dropping from the host of heaven = semen." (Source: The Book of The Law Study Group 3.24 - - - http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=157951)

"The best blood is of the moon (menstrual blood), monthly: then the fresh blood of a child, or dropping from the host of heaven (semen/blood): then of enemies; then of the priest or of the worshippers: last of some beast, no matter what. (AL III:24)" (Source: Lady Gaga Blood & Semen perfume? - - - https://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?p=1059635955 (davidicke.com is a net site about conspiracies).)

"... the host of heaven, i.e. the Sun and Moon and stars." (Source: IAO131's book HRILIU: Symbolic Explorations of the Gnostic Mass, 2016, page 280.)

Above are various interpretations of the terms "blood of the moon", "the fresh blood of a child" and "the host of heaven". Are the above interpretations correct?

It seems logical that "mingled sexual fluids collected after an act of sacremenatal [sic.] sex" is what the term "fresh blood of a child" refers to with respect to sex magic, as it takes both male and female sexual fluids to conceive a child.

But could not the said mingled sexual fluids also be referred to with the term "the host of heaven" (that is "the Sun and Moon and stars.")? Because "the host of heaven" encompasses both "sun" and "moon", and sun and moon are words used within The Book of the Law (Chapter I, verse 16.) used to symbolize a male and a female: "For he is ever a sun, and she a moon. But to him is the winged secret flame, and to her the stooping starlight."

As for the words "dropping from the host of heaven" = semen, and "the host of heaven" can be interpreted to refer to among other things "the sun", did Crowley refer to the penis as a symbol for "the host of heaven", or as a symbol for the lord of "the host of heaven"?


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wellreadwellbred
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11/08/2018 12:02 pm  

"... fresh blood of a child", does according to another member of this site refer to "male ejaculation". (Source: https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/male-dominated-forum-why-how/page/2/#post-108803)

I am not aware of any source like for example Thelemapedia: The Encyclopedia of Thelema & Magick, containing exact definitions of the words “blood of the moon", "fresh blood of a child" and "dropping from the host of heaven", as used in The Book of the Law, Chapter III, verse 24.: “The best blood is of the moon, monthly: then the fresh blood of a child, or dropping from the host of heaven: then of enemies; then of the priest or of the worshippers: last of some beast, no matter what.”


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Jamie J Barter
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11/08/2018 3:59 pm  

"...then of enemies... then of... last of..."

So how exactly would the rest of the verse fit in with this analogy? Why stop less than halfway --- is it because it doesn't (fit in)?

NB With my PC beginning to play up again,
N Joy


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Shiva
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11/08/2018 5:52 pm  

Thread Title: Sex magick and Thelema are two different things

Oh? What ever happened to:
"Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby there cometh hurt." ?


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Michael Staley
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11/08/2018 6:12 pm  

@wellreadwellbred

“… fresh blood of a child”, does according to another member of this site refer to “male ejaculation”. (Source: https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/male-dominated-forum-why-how/page/2/#post-108803)

The post to which you link is by ignant666, and says:

Thank you, Captain Obvious; see several posts above saying the same re AC’s sexism as potentially off-putting to many women, albeit more cogently.

Re quote #1: Do you (wrwb) actually imagine women generally view menstrual blood as “what scares them”?

Re quotes #1 & #2: Or is it that you (wrwb) actually imagine that heterosexual women generally view male ejaculation (the activity described in the verses you quote, as you perfectly well know) as “what scares them”?

I see nothing in this post which states or even suggests that "fresh blood of a child" is a reference to "male ejaculation". Your post is nonsense; quelle surprise.


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Tiger
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11/08/2018 7:19 pm  

Sexual fluids blood kalas
correct me if i read or understand things wrong or even on the wrong tracks .

Grant i believe mentions that the sexual magickal fluids are less scientific and more akin to chakra’s
it’s more of a tone or a pitch and intuitive understanding than a subscription ?

STD how does that come in to the picture ?
can one get an sTD form eating cakes of Light ?

where is magispiegel ?


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Tiger
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11/08/2018 7:24 pm  

correction : replace subscription with prescription .


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wellreadwellbred
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12/08/2018 12:34 am  

Michael Staley: "I see nothing in this post which states or even suggests that “fresh blood of a child” is a reference to “male ejaculation”."

"Re quotes #1 & #2: [...] male ejaculation (the activity described in the verses you quote, as you perfectly well know) ...", are the words in the post by ignant666 to which I link is, suggesting that “fresh blood of a child” is a reference to “male ejaculation”."

The "quotes #1 & #2:" mentioned by ignant666, refers thee following quotes used by me in my first posting on page two of the thread titled Male dominated forum. Why? How?:

"“12. Sacrifice cattle, little and big: after a child.” “24. The best blood is of the moon, monthly: then the fresh blood of a child, […].” “25. This burn: of this make cakes & eat unto me. …”. (Source: The Book of the Law (Chapter III, verse 12, 24, and 25.)
[...] “21. Then again the master shall speak as he will soft words, and with music and what else he will bring forward the Victim. 22. Also he shall slay a young child upon the altar, and the blood shall cover the altar with perfume as of roses.” (Source: Liber 66, verse 21 and 22.)"

"the fresh blood of a child" is the reference to “male ejaculation” in the first quote, and "he shall slay a young child upon the altar, and the blood shall cover the altar", is the reference to “male ejaculation” in the second quote.

"... ‘Liber Stellae Rubeae’, describes the ejaculation of the sperm in a sexual rite under the disturbing metaphor of child sacrifice: ‘Also he shall slay a young child upon the altar, and the blood shall cover the altar with perfume as of roses. Then shall the master appear as He should appear—in His glory’.42 Who is this master? It would appear that it is the sperm understood in its metaphysical aspect. The same idea is entertained, inter alia[= among other things], in the chapter from The Book of Lies, called ‘Dewdrops’, where the sperm is equated with the “Dew of Immortality”, and described as ‘the Quintessence and Elixir of [man’s] being’, with the following admonition: ‘Let this go free, even as It will; thou art not its master, but the vehicle of It’.43
There are scattered allusions in Crowley’s writings to the effect that the human sexual secretions, in their religious connotation, constitute the secret or “silent” Self of the person. This secret Self is occasionally equated with the “Babe in the Egg of Blue”, and identified as the god of silence, Hoor-Pa-Kraat (Harpocrates), one of the principal Thelemic deities. The “egg” in question is ‘not only Akasha, but the original egg in the biological sense. This egg issues from the lotus, which is the symbol of the Yoni [vagina]’.44 ..."

(Source: The preceding quote is taken from page 96 and 97 in Solve et Coagula: Attitudes Toward the Ambrosial Aspects of Human Seed in Certain Yogic Traditions and in the Sexual Magick of Aleister Crowley* [*) This is a revised version of a paper read at the 3rd International Conference of the Association for the Study of Esotericism (Charleston, SC: May 29 – June 1 2008). My thanks to Marco Pasi and William Breeze who read an earlier draft and provided useful comments.] by Gordan Djurdjevic (Department of Humanities, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby) in ARIES 10.1 (2010) 85-106)


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pegasus
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12/08/2018 4:21 am  

just a thought sperm is life... it creates life and lives... so transmuting it's natural state is full of possibilities ... one sperm cell is just one universe in a multiverse

and sperm is fascinating because I don't contain any as female... ???

Still working out blood and bubbles.. tiny bubbles of bright red contained in dark red

I need a lab ... lol

with Parsons blowing himself up that thought is a major ponderance

I still get a laugh from remembering Ares and oral .. "here hunny, eat the kids"...


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wellreadwellbred
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12/08/2018 10:38 am  

wellreadwellbred: "My [= Gordan Djurdjevic's] thanks to Marco Pasi and William Breeze who read an earlier draft and provided useful comments."

The William Breeze referred to is the current "Outer Head of the Order / O.H.O." of the Ordo Templi Orientis. (Source: http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/Hymenaeus_Beta).

The Marco Pasi referred to "is Associate Professor (UD1) in History of Hermetic philosophy and related currents.", and the author of Aleister Crowley and the Temptation of Politics. (Source: http://www.uva.nl/profiel/p/a/m.pasi/m.pasi.html)

Among Marco Pasi's published articles are: ""L’anticristianesimo in Aleister Crowley (1875-1947)", in PierLuigi Zoccatelli (ed.), Aleister Crowley - Un mago a Cefalù, Mediterranee, Roma 1998 (proceedings of the conference of Cefalù, Febr. 1997).", ""Aleister Crowley" and "Golden Dawn", in Jean Servier (ed.), Dictionnaire critique de l’ésotérisme, Presses Universitaires de France, Paris 1998.", "“The Influence of Aleister Crowley on Fernando Pessoa’s Esoteric Writings”, in: Richard Caron, Joscelyn Godwin, Wouter J. Hanegraaff, et Jean-Louis Vieillard-Baron (eds.), Esotérisme, gnoses & imaginaire symbolique - Mélanges offerts à Antoine Faivre, Louvain, Peeters, 2001.", "The Neverendingly Told Story: Recent Biographies of Aleister Crowley”, in Aries: Journal for the Study of Western Esotericism, III, 2 (2003).", and "“Aleister Crowley”, “Samuel Liddell Mathers”, “Ordo Templi Orientis”, and “William W. Westcott”, in: Wouter J. Hanegraaff et al. (eds.), Dictionary of Gnosis and Western Esotericism, Leiden - Boston, Brill, 2005." (Source: http://www.parareligion.ch/sunrise/pasi/biopasi.htm)

What Gordan Djurdjevic covered in his article Solve et Coagula: Attitudes Toward the Ambrosial Aspects of Human Seed in Certain Yogic Traditions and in the Sexual Magick of Aleister Crowley, is among other things, also covered in his book India and the Occult: The Influence of South Asian Spirituality on Modern Western Occultism (Palgrave Studies in New Religions and Alternative Spiritualities) Hardcover – May 21, 2014 (Source: https://www.amazon.com/India-Occult-Spirituality-Alternative-Spiritualities/dp/1137404981/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1534062113&sr=1-3&keywords=Gordan+Djurdjevic&dpID=51pA3BtG8WL&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc ="srch)"


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Michael Staley
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12/08/2018 11:38 am  

@ignant666

“Re quotes #1 & #2: […] male ejaculation (the activity described in the verses you quote, as you perfectly well know) …”, are the words in the post by ignant666 to which I link is, suggesting that “fresh blood of a child” is a reference to “male ejaculation”.”

So wellreadbred, to judge from the above quote, now regards you as the authoritative source for the phrase "fresh blood of a child" as referring to "male ejeculation". Is he correct in this?


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Michael Staley
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12/08/2018 1:18 pm  

@wellreadwellbred

So in what way, wellreadwellbred, is the "fresh blood of a child" a reference to "male ejeculation"? Or might it be that you simply parrot indiscriminately the views of others?


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Shiva
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12/08/2018 5:10 pm  

Tig: STD how does that come in to the picture ?
can one get an sTD form eating cakes of Light ?

HIV (AIDS) is a very fragile virus. It dies as soon as it's no longer inside some droplet of fluid ... but if the cake(s) contained fresh blood or white stains that had not completely dried out, then YES you'd be in serious trouble if you gobbled one.

Hepatitis B & C are different. They are not dependent on fluid and can last for decades. HB&CC are the reason we sterilize medical instruments. Boiling water will kill most bacteria, but HB&C just keep rollin' along.

There are other transmittable "stuff & things," but these two (HIV & Hep) should suffice. They can kill you.

Care for another cake?


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Jamie J Barter
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12/08/2018 6:22 pm  

"...then of enemies... then of... last of some beast... "

So, wrwb, in terms of the ingredients of the cakes (the actual context of III:24) just how would you (=the baker) propose to get hold of the 'ejaculatory elixir'/ blood of the next one down on the list, "of enemies"?

By the very nature of the word you could hardly expect an "enemy" to assist you perhaps in scooping it up, the same also with "some" unco-operative beast".

This would-be analogy of yours doesn't even seem to constitute a tight fit here!
N Joy


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wellreadwellbred
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12/08/2018 7:02 pm  

Jamie J Barter: "“…then of enemies… then of… last of…”

So how exactly would the rest of the verse fit in with this analogy? Why stop less than halfway — is it because it doesn’t (fit in)?" (source: https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/sex-magick-and-thelema-are-two-different-things/page/2/#post-10892)

Some parts of the verse do not fit in with this analogy, because they do not all refer to sex magick.

"Cakes of Light are never mentioned by name in The Book of the Law, however many people interpret the following passages as being instructions for their creation (from III:23-25):

For perfume mix meal & honey & thick leavings of red wine: then oil of Abramelin and olive oil, and afterward soften & smooth down with rich fresh blood.

The best blood is of the moon, monthly: then the fresh blood of a child, or dropping from the host of heaven: then of enemies; then of the priest or of the worshippers: last of some beast, no matter what.

This burn: of this make cakes & eat unto me. This hath also another use; let it be laid before me, and kept thick with perfumes of your orison: it shall become full of beetles as it were and creeping things sacred unto me.

Some commentators have interpreted this to mean that the "blood" component mentioned in the second portion of this quote may be formed from menstrual blood or semen.[2] [...] ([2] Crowley, Aleister. The Old and New Commentaries to Liber AL, III, 24.)" (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cake_of_Light)


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ignant666
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12/08/2018 7:47 pm  

He is correct in saying that i think the phrase refers to ejaculation, and not human sacrifice, yes.


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Jamie J Barter
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12/08/2018 8:27 pm  

“…then of enemies… then of… last of some beast… “

Copy and pasting chunks of Wikipedia verbatim by way of the totality of an answer is rubbish practice, wrwb, and don't you think betokens the lack of any original thinking on the matter of the query? Which still stands, by the way: : your analogy with sex magick (such as it is) does not even cover half of the verse in question.

What else does it apply to (if anything) and why should it refer to more than one thing in the context of the ingredients for the cakes in the verse?

N Joy


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the_real_simon_iff
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12/08/2018 8:30 pm  

Well, I would say, of course are Sex Magick and Thelema two different things. The former is a powerful tool in many spiritual systems, the latter is all about Do What Thou Wilt. Both can be practiced independently from each other. It seems logical that they are different. Just like Baptism and Christianity are two different things.

Maybe you wanted to inquire about the specific "sexy stuff" in Liber AL? Then the title of the thread seems misleading.

On the other hand Shiva said it first: 'Bind nothing! Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby there cometh hurt'

Love=Law
Lutz


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the_real_simon_iff
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12/08/2018 8:42 pm  

Jamie,

I guess you have to go back from an alchemycal interpretation after the child slaying (a no-no) to the literal interpretation and thereby you simply have to slay the enemy and the beast - without consent. Might be a no-no also. I'd go with the alchemycal interpretation, which then of course would mean - to stay consistent - that there is one for the moon blood also.

Love=Law
Lutz


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Michael Staley
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12/08/2018 9:19 pm  

@ignant666

He is correct in saying that i think the phrase refers to ejaculation, and not human sacrifice, yes.

Thank you for the confirmation, ignant. Like you, I don't take it literally, but neither do I think it refers to ejaculation; I was just surprised that wellreadwellbred was taking this as an authoritative statement on what was comported by the phrase.


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Tiger
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12/08/2018 9:37 pm  

I was just surprised that wellreadwellbred was taking this as an authoritative statement on what was comported by the phrase.

Well wellreadwellbred is wellreadwellbred, if only he could fathom the better half and figure out what he is doing wrong or become aware that he is doing something wrong .
ok sorry for my speculation and bad jokes
forgive me wellreadwellbred; just had to get that one in .


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wellreadwellbred
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12/08/2018 10:30 pm  

Your fine wordplay is fine with me Tiger.

"AL III,24: “The best blood is of the moon, monthly: then the fresh blood of a child, or dropping from the host of heaven: then of enemies; then of the priest or of the worshippers: last of some beast, no matter what.”

"The actual blood of a child, a human minor, is never used under any circumstances. Metaphorically, this ingredient is taken to be a mixture of natural secretions, which in the normal course of nature might contain the elements of conception. This is dangerous in mixed company; aside from any pun, it can act as a vector of disease. See Crowley's comment [The New Comment] to the verse; "...applying the knowledge which reposes in the Sanctuary of the Gnosis of the Ninth Degree of O.T.O. The 'child' is 'BABALON and THE BEAST conjoined, the Secret Saviour', that is, the Being symbolized by the Egg and Serpent hieroglyph of the Phoenician adepts." (Source: "... Crowley Mass + Bloodletting" - - - http://lg15.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=29809&sid=258e7e1897365b1868e5164168f2d84c)

From Crowley's The New Comment to the same verse: "The student should be able to discover the sense of this passage by recollecting the Qabalistic statement that “The blood is the life”, consulting Book 4 Part III, and applying the knowledge which reposes in the Sanctuary of the Gnosis of the Ninth Degree of O.T.O. The 'child' is “BABALON and THE BEAST conjoined, the Secret Saviour”, that is, the Being symbolized by the Egg and Serpent hieroglyph of the Phoenician adepts." (Source: https://hermetic.com/legis/new-comment/chapter-iii)

"Those magicians who abject to the use of blood have endeavored to replace it with incense. For such a purpose the incense of Abramelin may be burnt in large quantities. Dittany of Crete is also a valuable medium. Both these incenses are very catholic in their nature, and suitable for almost any materialization.

But the bloody sacrifice, though more dangerous, is more efficacious; and for nearly all purposes human sacrifice is the best. The truly great Magician will be able to use his own blood, or possibly that of a disciple, and that without sacrificing the physical life irrevocably." (Source: Chapter XII Of the Bloody Sacrifice and Matters Cognate., in MAGICK IN THEORY AND PRACTICE, Part III of Book Four, by Aleister Crowley. - - - https://hermetic.com/crowley/book-4/chap12).

The sum of Crowley hinting at "applying the knowledge which reposes in the Sanctuary of the Gnosis of the Ninth Degree of O.T.O.", and also hinting at that the 'child' in AL III,24 is "“BABALON and THE BEAST conjoined, the Secret Saviour”, that is, the Being symbolized by the Egg and Serpent hieroglyph of the Phoenician adepts.", points in the direction of keeping Sex magick in mind when following his advice about "consulting Book 4 Part III" for the statement “The blood is the life”. And the statement "The blood is the life." is found within Chapter XII Of the Bloody Sacrifice and Matters Cognate., in MAGICK IN THEORY AND PRACTICE, Part III of Book Four.


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Michael Staley
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14/08/2018 12:19 am  

@wellreadwellbred

Thank you for the compilation of quotes. I do not think that "the fresh blood of a child" is a reference to male ejaculation, but that's simply my opinion. When it comes to understanding The Book of the Law it is the distillation of our own understanding which counts. The interpretations of others are helpful, and as such are welcome. For instance, recently I came across an interesting interpretation of "Nu! the hiding of Hadit" which opens up some fascinating connections.

Back to the topic of the thread. Yes, I think that Thelema and Sex Magick are two different things. The latter is one means amongst several of the development of Thelema.


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pegasus
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14/08/2018 1:47 pm  

The best blood is of the moon, monthly: then the fresh blood of a child, or dropping from the host of heaven: then of enemies; then of the priest or of the worshippers: last of some beast, no matter what.

Thoughts running around are....Aleister is telling by not telling , so hinting to take a look at something closer to figure out the final key in it. He is not going to come out and tell you what to do, that isn't the thelema way, ok i see the oh doh's... so he's telling you to look deeper. To differentiate by examination of the differences between menstrual blood, young blood aka new blood, enemies blood, now that one is big. who is your enemy and why? then of the priest? you them or them.. something to ponder and well if there was enemies, there would also be friends, its just the way it goes, so look at bloodlines, yours, friends and enemies, and then what difference with the rest and don't it make your browns eyes blue.... and then compare to a beast of the earths blood. Going further rhesus factor, ape and so on .. familiar... and negative positive currents and then just maybe you would find a key to what ever question was asked .. and then some

Then when you examine all that and thank Al for google eh, don't have to go vampire anyone, except yourself perhaps, it's all there at fingertips, you just got to put it together... but you knew that.

True will is power.. power comes by knowledge. knowledge is power in biblical terms the mark of cain.....i was just looking at aleisters pic on the page here, and well I gues I wasn't supposed to type what i was going to fogotten what it was funny enough.. but then as I was loking at hime I thought to myself, you don't scare me, you never did, made me curious, made me feel very female, but never scared me-


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Jamie J Barter
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14/08/2018 2:33 pm  

Does anyone have any ideas as to why the blood of "enemies" should be better (i.e. more advanced in the preferred order of the listing) than that of a --- or rather, "the" --- "priest" or "worshippers"?

N joy


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Tiger
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14/08/2018 3:12 pm  

Beautiful imagery; some mythic, religious and scientific associations (not sure about the lines being drawn) food for thought .
Thomas Rando, MD, PhD Stanford- Young Blood 7:10 into video
https://youtu.be/otcz3SK1iGI

“Does anyone have any ideas as to why the blood of “enemies” should be better (i.e. more advanced in the preferred order of the listing) than that of a — or rather, “the” — “priest” or “worshippers”? “

“priest” or “worshippers” have a more sheepish make up ?

@Jamie
Aren’t there libraries with computers and internet cafes around your parts ?


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Jamie J Barter
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14/08/2018 8:53 pm  

@tiger :

Aren’t there libraries with computers and internet cafes around your parts ?
around which of my parts zackly (could say that's private...)?

"Sheepish make up" --- in what way? More or less, of some beastly perhaps?

Z Joy


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Tiger
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14/08/2018 10:50 pm  

@Jaimie
Sheepish make up” — in what way?
More or less, of some beastly perhaps?

🙂 perhaps yes ?

around which of my parts zackly (could say that’s private…)?

oh well just checking up on your parts for all to see incase they don’t show up here .

——————————————————————————————————

seems like a private thing
as Michael Staley so well put
distillation of our own understanding which counts. The interpretations of others are helpful, and as such are welcome.

and as pegasus brought up
To differentiate by examination of the differences between

Which priests and worshipers ?


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Jamie J Barter
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14/08/2018 11:27 pm  

oh well just checking up on your parts for all to see incase they don’t show up here
I don't want to discuss it much as it might jinx the bugger. I'm sure you understand?!

Which priests and worshipers ?
There is only the one priest mentioned, not plurals. I would imagine the context of both is the officiating Priest in the Gnostic Mass, with the worshipPers the concomitant celebrants of the ensuing eucharist. Wouldn't you too?! Else what!?

"No matter what",
N Joy


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Tiger
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14/08/2018 11:43 pm  

Else what!?
a Brahmin ?

Wouldn’t you too?!
Just wanted a confirmation i guess .


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Jamie J Barter
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15/08/2018 12:35 am  

Perhaps. Or else, no matter.

Guess probably so! *

Still don't get how the priests & the worshipers come across as are more "sheepish" than "enemies", tho'

n Joy

* PS But wait!! Ive just had athought: the Gnostic Mass was written in 1913 so the "priest" mentioned couldn't have been in the context of the Mass after all, since The Book of the Law was written (down) in 1904 (nine years earlier!). Unless...


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