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Michael Staley
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11/07/2020 1:02 am  

In his later life, Crowley propounded the view that the Aeons of Isis, Osiris and Horus were each of approximately 2,000 years duration, bounded by the astronomical phenomena of Precession. However, that was not his opinion in the early years following the reception of The Book of the Law.

Chapter III verse 34 of The Book of the Law includes the following:

But your holy place shall be untouched throughout the centuries: though with fire and sword it be burnt down & shattered, yet an invisible house there standeth, and shall stand until the fall of the Great Equinox; when Hrumachis shall arise and the doublewanded one assume my throne and place.

In the ‘Old Comment’, published in The Equinox Vol. I No. 7, Crowley commented on this passage as follows:

Following him [Horus] will arise the Equinox of Ma, the Goddess of Justice, it may be a hundred or ten thousand years from now; for the Computation of Time is not here as There.

In the Introduction to the 1938 edition of The Book of the Law, Crowley remarked concerning the third chapter:

It explains that certain vast 'stars' (or aggregates of experience) may be described as Gods. One of these is in charge of the destinies of this planet for periods of 2,000 years . . .

And subsequently in the same Introduction, speaking of Horus:

He rules the present period of 2,000 years, beginning in 1904 . . .

Does anyone know when Crowley first began to think in terms of the Aeons haveing more or less fixed spans of time? When did the change occur?


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djedi
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11/07/2020 1:48 am  

Unless I am mistaken, Crowley found the Old Comment to be inappropriate for the demographic he was trying to reach, which was the lowest common denominator. I believe this excerpt from Confessions, in which AC discusses his ideas for the regular ol' Comment, illustrates that:

I am now getting ready to write the Comment on The Book of the Law as it bade me do. I had stupidly supposed this Comment to be a scholarly exposition of the Book, an elucidation of its obscurities and a demonstration of its praeterhuman origin. I understand at last that this idea is nonsense. The Comment must be an interpretation of the Book intelligible to the simplest minds, and as practical as the Ten Commandments. For the time is at hand when the bankruptcy of all theories of religion, all systems of government, will become obvious to all. 

It does make sense, to me, that a system of set, cyclical aeons with clearly delineable causes and effects would be more 'simple' and 'practical' to the common man/thelemite, who Crowley didn't expect to be a magician. However, I don't think that system is, if fully comprehended, mutually exclusive with the nonlinear aeonic theory of the Old Comment -- which I also happen to prefer, and see as being much more practical to a magician than the newer theory.


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Shiva
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11/07/2020 4:57 am  

As we get more precise, by referring to Across the Gulf, which was written as a novel but very specific about the previous Aeon Changeover ... administered by none other than Ankh, who stepped in again as Therion ... 2400 years later, to do the same trick, but to a different tune. Ankh was circa 500 BC.

I think the "truth" is that "time is not the same there as here." The 2000 year brickhouse is dogma, convenient to the New Aeon over-riding the previous one, which started 2000 (actually 1900) years earlier by that renegade Jesus who whipped me in boy school.

I assume, Michael, that you are inquiring into Crowley's viewpoint over time in reference to other Adepts who felt the Aeonic timespan was much more fluid that 20 terrestrial centuries. Since this precession thing comes into play, if we divide the Grand Equinox of Astronomy ...

The Precession of the equinoxes =  25,920 yrs

If the sky is divided into 12 constellations:

(25,920 / 12 = 2,160)

So 2160 is close enough to 2000, if we allow for a transition period, which even the astrologers admit is a factor. But if it's all based on astrological pylons at a particular point in history being the entrance to a new level of consciousness for humanity, then its a bit fixed and dogmatic, even if the puzzle can be so constructed from a single puzzle piece (dated Spring Equinox 1904).

I would be interested in the Aeon of Maat coming forth in 1948(?)  I suppose that's all in the book.

 


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herupakraath
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11/07/2020 10:12 am  
Posted by: @michael-staley

In his later life, Crowley propounded the view that the Aeons of Isis, Osiris and Horus were each of approximately 2,000 years duration, bounded by the astronomical phenomena of Precession

Where does Crowley mention precession in relation to verse III:34?

 


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Behemoth
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12/07/2020 4:16 am  
Posted by: @michael-staley

Does anyone know when Crowley first began to think in terms of the Aeons haveing more or less fixed spans of time? When did the change occur?

Posted by: @djedi

It does make sense, to me, that a system of set, cyclical aeons with clearly delineable causes and effects would be more 'simple' and 'practical' to the common man/thelemite, who Crowley didn't expect to be a magician. However, I don't think that system is, if fully comprehended, mutually exclusive with the nonlinear aeonic theory of the Old Comment -- which I also happen to prefer, and see as being much more practical to a magician than the newer theory.

 

Considering one of the most influential figures among the original Plymouth Brethren was also called "the father of dispensationalism" (John Nelson Darby), Crowley might have been introduced to such 'fixed spawns of time' much earlier that later assumed their (macrocosmical?) roles for him in terms and guise of Golden Dawn officers and non-Christian context.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism

Dispensationalism is a religious interpretive system and metanarrative for the Bible. It considers biblical history as divided by God into dispensations, defined periods or ages to which God has allotted distinctive administrative principles. According to dispensationalism, each age of God's plan is thus administered in a certain way, and humanity is held responsible as a steward during that time.

 

Behold now Behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.


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Shiva
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12/07/2020 8:28 am  

P.S. to whatever I wrote up above, somewhere: I forgot to mention ...

One of the few practical but metaphysical things I got from the Harmonic Convergence-Timeshift-Polar Shift-and-EndoftheWorld Mayan Calendar was in the philosophy.

12 Signs of the Zodiac. 12 month squeezed into a Year. 24-hour days, but 12-hours clocks - with 60 increments, each increment having 60 increments. The 12:60 ratio of chronological management, whose motto is, "Time is Money."

There are 13 moon cycles in a year. The Mayan thingy was based on a 13:20 ratio of natural time synchronization with the macrocosm.

12 disciples, 12 stars, 12 columns. I distrust the number 12 as presented today to govern time and astrology and aeons.

Also note: The strict Christian believes the world was created in 4004 BC. Somebody figured it out via the biblical gynecology genealogy and how long they lived, which we all know is very precise data that Crowley loved as a child-Beast, and we all know it's really accurate and true, exactly the way it happened.

Anyway, that allows for two, 2,000-yr Aeons before Jesus spake, and one more (~2,000-yr) before Perdurabo spake. A nice, clean chronograph for the simple folk and even Christians. Even a lot of Thelemites.


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herupakraath
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12/07/2020 11:26 am  
Posted by: @herupakraath

Where does Crowley mention precession in relation to verse III:34?

 

To answer my own question, Crowley delves into Zodiacal procession in his description of Key XI, Lust, in The Book of Thoth, and links a pair of Zodiacal signs to each of the three aeons he envisioned, but never states anything about axial precession. Charles Stansfeld Jones does mention the concept of precession in The Equinox, Volume III, #10, in Horus, Isis, and Osiris in the Q.B.L..

The difference between axial precession and Zodiacal procession is substantial in regard to your question. Within the concept of axial precession, there can be no discernible time duration for an aeon, as a result of the star constellations involved having irregular shapes and boundaries, that is if any measurable boundaries exist at all. Within the concept of Zodiacal Procession, every sign of the Zodiac represents a fixed measurement of time, and if used in conjunction with Crowley's concept of religious aeons, will require that each one consist of a fixed time period.

 


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Michael Staley
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12/07/2020 3:50 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

I assume, Michael, that you are inquiring into Crowley's viewpoint over time in reference to other Adepts who felt the Aeonic timespan was much more fluid that 20 terrestrial centuries.

There are many different systems of Aeonology out there. I didn't appreciate quite how many there were until reading David Hall's typescript of Beelzebub and the Beast, in particular the chapter 'Time and the World'. Crowley's position in the 'Old Comment' - "for the Computation of Time is not here as There" - is clear, and I wondered when and why he later developed the view that the aeons endured for fixed periods of time.

This is something which has interested me for many years, but which intrigued me the more whilst I was preparing The Incoming of the Aeon of Maat for publication. Gerald Yorke, for instance, assumed that the Aeon of Horus would last for 2,000 years or so before being superceded by the next Aeon. So, when he received a letter from Jones saying that the next aeon had in fact been inaugurated on 2nd April 1948 he was staggered, as the flock of exclamation marks in his pencil annotations to the letter (preserved in the Warbug) bears witness.

There was an interesting series of letters exchanged between Crowley and Jones in 1936. In a letter dated 12th July, Jones said:

"My own interpretation of currents is that once having performed my task of supplying you with the key of Liber Legis, I have since been led to push ahead as rapidly as possible with preparations for the aeon of M.A.A.T.; which should be looked for in order to correct the balance of the heavy swing of the pendulum caused by the incoming of what we may term your aeon, and therefore tend to restore equilibrium."

In a letter of 22nd July Crowley replied:

"Your preparations for the Aeon of Justice seem to me personal to yourself, incidents in the course of your initiation, and I have no doubt that they will flower at the fall of the Great Equinox. But I think that your position in respect to the Aeon of Horus is to be considered of supreme importance at this juncture. I do not at all think that your work in respect of The Book of the Law has passed beyond its beginning."

I found Crowley's response quite interesting, since there is no suggestion in his remarks that the next Aeon was 2,000 years away. Over the following months, the correspondence between the two degenerated into acrimony, resulting in Crowley issuing a proclamation expelling Jones from the O.T.O. Subsequently, in Crowley's Introduction to the 1938 edition of The Book of the Law, the Aeons are presented as 2,000 years apiece.

So it might be that Crowley hardened his views, as it were, in response to what he saw as a challenge by Jones. I'd be very interested in learning of anything by Crowley prior to 1938 which imputes a fixed span of time to the aeons.

 

 

 


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Behemoth
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12/07/2020 5:00 pm  
Posted by: @michael-staley

So it might be that Crowley hardened his views, as it were, in response to what he saw as a challenge by Jones.

 

Well, considering the following declaration of Achad:

[quote from APPROACHING THE KABBALAH OF MAAT: Altered Trees and the Procession of the Æons by Don Karr]

 

On the 8th of April, 1948, Aleister Crowley’s most important student, one Frater Achad (that is, Charles Stansfield Jones, 1886-1950), gave written notice that the Aeon of Maat had commenced at 1:11 p.m. upon April 2nd, 1948, saying, “This day may be considered the true beginning of the Age of Aquarius."

 

From the viewpoint of Aeon of Horus and Crowley, the antagonism is also apparent:

[Liber 418]

 

I have gone forth to war, and I have slain him that sat upon the sea, crowned with the winds I put forth my power and he was broken. I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust.

[This is the foe of Horus, the Dweller of Nile. The winds which crown him are not the pure powers of Air of Libra, but the cloudy (mixed) forces of Aquarius, opposite in the Zodiac to Leo, the sign of Horus.]

 

In Equinox of the Gods, when questioning Rose about the attributions of Horus:

Knew his enemy. (I asked, "Who is his enemy?" Reply, "Forces of the waters--of the Nile." W. knew no Egyptology--or anything else.)

 

In astronomy of Ancient Egypt, Aquarius was associated with the annual flood of the Nile; the banks were said to flood when Aquarius put his jar into the river, beginning spring (Staal, Julius D.W. (1988), The New Patterns in the Sky: Myths and Legends of the Stars (2nd ed.), The McDonald and Woodward Publishing Company).

Behold now Behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.


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Shiva
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12/07/2020 7:57 pm  
Posted by: @behemoth

Achad wrote, “This day may be considered the true beginning of the Age of Aquarius."

Oh, that inference again.

Crowley cited Airy Aquarius supplanting (superseding and replacing) fishy Pisces (either circa 1904 or exactly on March 20, 1904, 7:58 pm EST). He did not push the term, Age of Aquarius, preferring The Aeon of Horus.

Achad suggest its "true beginning" was April 2, 1948, conveniently located 4 months after Crowley's passing.

Everybody over the age of 60 or so knows that The Dawning of the Age of Aquarius happened in 1965. It rolled on in psychedelic splendour for 7 years, then the National Guard stepped in and the fire got put out.

DATA
Copied and pasted from The Master Codex
which uses data quotes from external sources

The position of the Sun on the day of the Vernal Equinox is presently in the constellation of Pisces near the border of Aquarius.

Modern star maps show the Vernal Equinox entering Aquarius in a little less than 600 years (in the future, from the present year, 2018).

Specifically, the Vernal Equinox passed from Taurus into Aries in 1865 BC, passed into Pisces in 67 BC, will pass into Aquarius in 2597 AD, and will pass into Capricornus in the year 4312 AD.

Theoreticians tell us that the effect of the Aeons don’t end and begin on any given date, even if one can be determined, but that there is an overlap of adjoining Aeons, called a transition period. Various pundits tell us such periods last around 200-3oo years. A review of history shows us this transitional overlap is probably closer to 1000 years - 500 years in either direction from the changeover date.

END DATA FEED

With the macrocosmic qualities of an Aeon being imposed upon human consciousness, and thus furthering "evolution," this does not mean that everybody will become an Aquarian in the Age of Aquarius.

A review of history (as laid out in The Master Codex, but mercifully sparing this forum) can provide "absolute proof" of the validity of the ~2,000-year theory of Aeonal Precession. Only a few hundred years at the beginning and end transitional overlap of the Aeons is required in order to fiddle it into perfection.

But then the Mayan 13-moon/year calendar can also be seen as "absolute proof" that the Mayans had it right.

These are all (ALL) human attempts to synchronize macrocosmic data with the regulation of human civilization and daily life. The application that we currently suffer under, the 12:60 ratio, was set in place by, and continues for the benefit of, The Black Lodge. "Time is Money."

Well, duh. We all know that time is money when one is working, or employing, or buying, or doing most things planetside.

12:60 is a reason why hermits go to live in caves far away from clocks. Return to The Garden of Eden. It is also a reason for getting on the Path of the Three Grades, whose characteristics may be seen overshadowing the individual aspirant ...

FOR HUMANITY

Taurus 4000-2000 BC

Aries 2000-0 BC Isis

Pisces 0-2000 AD Osiris

Aquarius 2000-4000 AD Horus

Capricorn 4000-6000 AD Hrumachis (Maat)

FOR THE INITIATE

Taurus Prehistoric Prenatal 0*

Aries Childhood Isis Neophyte

Pisces Young Adult Osiris - Man-of-Earth Triad

Aquarius Mature Adult Horus - Lover triad

Capricorn Senior Citizen Hrumachis (Maat) - Hermit Triad

Then one must consider how the constellations/signs have changed over time,

We have had this general conversation before. It is my conclusion that the most important correlation between Aeons and mankind is in the individual application. I believe Achad entered Maat Aeon Status as an individual. I do not believe his entry caused the human race to suddenly become subjected to The Last judgment, or even payback for unpaid parking tickets.

Trying to fit these spiritual concepts into terrestrial time is depicted in the following chronograph (timeline), which is the very first picture in the very first chapter of the Codex ...

image
     

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Aleisterion
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13/07/2020 5:33 pm  

Per Crowley's system (vide The Book of Thoth), there are two astrological signs assigned to each aeon, not just one: the two signs opposite each other on the zodiacal wheel. Not just Aquarius, the water-bearer, but also Leo, the beast. I.e., Babalon and the Beast; love and will; fire and force. 

Personally, I find myself in agreement with Crowley's earlier idea, i.e. that these things shift somewhat unpredictably, with the charging and ebbing tides of human evolution, not on a fixed basis. Also it's pretty obvious to me that some individuals might undergo accelerated evolution, and find themselves more in tune with times to come. Prophets for instance are a bit ahead of their time, by definition.


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Shiva
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13/07/2020 7:53 pm  
Posted by: @aleisterion

Personally, I find myself in agreement with Crowley's earlier idea, i.e. that these things shift somewhat unpredictably, with the charging and ebbing tides of human evolution, not on a fixed basis.

This is pretty much the consensus we came to in an earlier thread. I, personally, a person who does not exist (and never did), take form and say that I agree with your perspective.

It has been demonstrated that 2,000-year Aeons are colored wooden block for children to stack in different piles.

2,160-year Aeons (with overlapping transition periods) involve textbooks and tables for the older child to analize, dissect, rearrange, and monitor, in order to see if this theorem is true.

Aeons that vary according to the direction and speed of development for any individual, clan, group, nation, will be sensed and appreciated by the big kids. It must be admitted that the entire human race has recently gone through a universal upgrade with the advent of digital communication.

There are nine vehicles of liberation. The lower eight are all intellectually contrived. Only the ninth vehicle (Rigpa) is true. Rigpa is without concepts, so Aeons are part of the intellectual fabrication. They are "made up."

This thread really wants to know when AC changed from the variable Aeon appreciation to the fixed 2K construct of 12 major pylons, of which only four are widely examined (Isis, Osiris, Horus, Maat). It seems the why he changed has been revealed (to reach the common folk), but the when has only been seen at its two ends. When did Crowley change? That is the question. Some sort of prize will be awarded to the first person who narrows it down to, say, a three-year period. Name the month and year, and double prizes aWaite. Proof required. Theories are not acceptable.

Posted by: @aleisterion

Also it's pretty obvious to me that some individuals might undergo accelerated evolution, and find themselves more in tune with times to come. Prophets for instance are a bit ahead of their time, by definition.

Ditto.

 


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christibrany
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13/07/2020 10:10 pm  

@shiva

 

And of course you must thus be aware that the Zodiac used to have 13 signs, to match the moon, and the 13th one was the Spider.

I think Kenneth Grant may talk about it in his books.  If not, I read it somewhere else....but it makes sense. 


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Michael Staley
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13/07/2020 11:03 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

Some sort of prize will be awarded to the first person who narrows it down to, say, a three-year period. Name the month and year, and double prizes aWaite. Proof required. Theories are not acceptable.

Lord Gnome used to offer "the usual fiver" in such circumstances, and I can only do likewise. The idea of Aeons with fixed durations was there by 1938 at the latest, as the Introduction to the 1938 edition of The Book of the Law makes clear. The 1936 exchange between Jones and Crowley highlighted earlier in this thread might suggest that Crowley did not at that time have fixed durations in mind, but it's not clearcut.


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Shiva
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13/07/2020 11:17 pm  
Posted by: @christibrany

the Zodiac used to have 13 signs, to match the moon, and the 13th one was the Spider.

Right. The 13:20 Calendar (Mayan, and possibly/probably others) was "stolen," and the contemporary 12:60 Calendar was inserted/substituted, by the evil male imposter priests of Mesopotamia (Sumerian Black Magicians who consorted with demons to gain longevity/immortality and power). Okay, that's the DreamSpell version (Arguelles & the Pacal Votan Tomb Inscriptions) - translated by Jose in the middle of a civil war, down at Palenque.

image

Crowley said the mountain demon gave him asthma. After I visited the tomb (deep inside the pic you see, down a winding slippery (dripping wet with humidity) stone staircase), I had a new gastrointestinal ailment that nobody can diagnose. Be careful where you go. Check out the local spirits before you go. It's safer to go nowhere.

Posted by: @christibrany

it makes sense. 

13 moon cycles = 13 moonths = 13 months. Some sort of calendar-fiddling is obviously at work here.

 


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ignant666
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14/07/2020 12:10 am  

I visited that tomb too, no ailments followed. I ate mushrooms though- maybe you were being punished if you failed to?

I still have three stone-headed, parrot-feathered arrows i bought from some Indians there, i think the same ones who sold me the mushrooms.


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The HGA of a Duck
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14/07/2020 12:43 am  
Posted by: @ignant666

I ate mushrooms though

Were they local or did you bring them with you? (mushrooms being an ingredient for cooking of course and nothing else)


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ignant666
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14/07/2020 12:58 am  

I bought them at the pyramid site from some Indians, possibly the ones who sold me the arrows. Palenque is a very famous mushroom region.

Later on that same trip, i got married to my first wife in Oaxaca. Some Mexican hippies i knew gave us a banana leaf full of mushrooms so fresh they were still covered with cow shit as a wedding present.

Mushrooms are technically illegal in Mexico, but the law is seldom enforced, and never against Indians.


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Shiva
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14/07/2020 9:33 am  
Posted by: @ignant666

I visited that tomb too, no ailments followed.

Many people climb mountains, but do not get asthma. To be cursed by a spirit, you have to have a crack in your cranium.

Did you climb up the steep stairs to the top of the Temple of Inscriptions, then go down the steepest staircase on the planet into the bowels of the pyramid, to see the sarcophagus and lid of Pacal Votan, the LAST MAYAN KING?

LID

pacal voltan sarcophagus lid

Palenque is a necropolis. There are around 200+ smaller pyramid/temples still covered in the jungle.

I shot the whole complex they have cleared as the official tourist area on fuzzy 8mm film, turned it into a video, posted it on YourTub, It's 15-minutes. And I just watched it. You can too.

This is a real trip ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oStim3M2WKY

 


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christibrany
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14/07/2020 2:59 pm  

@Shiva

I remember traveling...

Nice stones.  Those steps are longer than I thought.  Larger pyramids than expected. 

 

@michael-staley

I had to look up Lord Gnome.  Private Eye seems like a fun magazine.  

~Tired and Emotional in Colorado

 

@ignant666

Mushrooms surrounded by giant pyramids and tombs seems kind of heavy.  Surprised you didn't get faux haunted.  Well, sunshine helps on such journeys. 


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ignant666
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14/07/2020 5:31 pm  

I am not sure what tomb we went in. It involved a long, damp, claustrophobic tunnel descent. I think it was the one in the pyramid you mention/depict, since that is the main one.


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Shiva
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14/07/2020 7:55 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

I am not sure what tomb we went in. It involved a long, damp, claustrophobic tunnel descent. I think it was the one in the pyramid you mention/depict, since that is the main one.

Oh, yes. Every one of those little free-standing pyramids (with a temple on top) was a tomb for some dignitary. Under the stone floor in every pyramid-temple, a mummy was found. The big one, the Temple of the Inscriptions (it has inscriptions carved into the walls of the temple) was for the Last Mayan King. His remains were under the floor too, but I swear that winding tunnel staircase was 100 feet below the floor of the temple (at the top of the pyramid). The tomb itself is located at ground level, right where one started climbing those very steep steps.

image

 


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hadgigegenraum
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14/07/2020 8:19 pm  

It is nice to know that this thread has been properly situated into the proper realm of drugs and more drugs, for I think that we well established in another thread that the 'End of the World" had indeed occurred or maybe not, but plenty of drinking strange ales might well bring forth a re ignition of important 'Days' or nights of imbibing, to which I am well glad to hear of Ignant's fine wedding gifts to which just touching live fungi of that sort can set to tingle the synapses in a way conducive to honeymoons and wedding nights where I guess a literal City of Pyramids was the backdrop for transformation of the spirit flesh partners to apotheosis beneath the stars....twos and none as one or beyond fun for indeed the vows are integral to set and setting to so remember...

So what time is it the OP asks to which certain answers have been given that are worthy of prizes, but it seems to me that the original question was or is a set up that is hiding some other agenda, for, for one who publishes Mr. Grant's books perhaps the answer should be quite obvious, we are in between, for the Aeon of Zain, the sword cuts through the confusion for is not the issue being, according to Grant, according to Achad, that Crowley had failed to utter a word....or rather the word...and when we look at things from the perspective that is outside the circles of time, well Ipsos factos it looks like lots of people would come to take mushrooms to realize that the metaphors of the end of history are but a doorway beyond time for the gulfs of aeons, so intersecting in promise do seem to have some magical periodicity that is not a period or even a comma but a fucking run on sentence from heaven or by hells own imagination into the transformation of thinking into will and will into thinking as Steiner opined upon the metamorphosis that Goethe so observed and initiated the science that is a the source of our own evolution or by retrogressions that some might via the methodology of the Book of Pleasure so recapitulate the phylogenic spin ontongony recapitulates or is it visa versa and now as we are just beginning to trip over our own synapses doing a visual watson and crick as they so groked under the influence I think that it is time to recognize our sponsor from the Solar Lodge, for it was a box not A frame and who care anyways for basically the non-dual Advaitic schtick works if you work it which means that grace by Jesus or another saint in the pantheon is your own self answering the question one hand clapping which does not meant that eighth degree rituals beat a Bar Mitzvah as the old aeon example when it comes to that change that comes in our biological ordeal or flowering forth, but certainly that is a mark in time, and by the time 1936 came along when the Equinox of the Gods was written, Mr. Swan pen himself might well have needed to keep the Maatians in line for Achad added an A, but then erased it to bring back the L, as Lamed or La mad as a hatter upon the mercurial vapors that confound the equations seeking the elixirs as these sentences bite  to chase its own tail....or someone else...or something else...or else the hathoric cow of wow might nourish us which hopefully might bring us back to the land of milk and honey but unfortunately the ahrimanic fake electronic womb world panopticon is upon us and i shall so curse using the very tools of such spelunking of the cave to which by a very reflection this might serve as a metaphoric file to cut the chains that are but shadows...

And now for the chaser, why sobriety is the promise of the ages and even every drug. but who needs one day at a time when we can have as many aeons as can fit in the hologram of our minds come alive for thank goodness Grady and Grant did their part to keep the old alchemist going through to the end...with some trips to the package store as these states with old blue laws state....and speaking of blue may be Conquest will chipper in, for I must say that was an important essay in the Skoob anthology, but that is for another thread....but I am sure that he might have answer to the question put forth before the assembled or disassembled as the case may be...Dissolution....he he he....prounounced as hay like rolling in the hay or feed the cow or is the daughter a he or a she now lets not get too politically correct around here or the whole website will be taken down per orders of the mob who have an obsession with statues but not statutes, and the statutes here are, and in code:

93   93/93

HG

 

 


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Shiva
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14/07/2020 9:46 pm  
Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

It is nice to know that this thread has been properly situated into the proper realm of drugs and more drugs

Mushrooms were mentioned as a passing drive-by side-note.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

the original question was or is a set up that is hiding some other agenda

Too much ale, or too much touching, can produce paranoia. The agenda is not "hidden," and it obviously ties in with Achad's new Aeon of '48. The question, which is simple enough in itself, is When Idid AC switch from variable to fixed Aeons? A good question and a good point.

In martial arts, the older guys swicth from a moving point (dancing all over the place) to a fixed point (standing still). Why and when? The when comes with stiffening joints, sometimes producing severe disabilities and certainly restricted movements.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

feed the cow

 

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

the statutes here are, and in code

"I will not feed a cow until the last cow has entered the barn"
- Oath of the last man standing

The statues are being pulled down and/or burned. Please keep up with current events.

  


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Michael Staley
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14/07/2020 9:59 pm  
Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

it seems to me that the original question was or is a set up that is hiding some other agenda, for, for one who publishes Mr. Grant's books perhaps the answer should be quite obvious,

There's no "set up". The original post is asking not "what Aeon are we in, mate?" but "when did Crowley first start giving the aeons fixed spans of time?".

I posted this same question on the 'Thelema' Facebook page a couple of days ago, and earlier today on the Temple of Thelema website, and I'm beginning to suspect that perhaps it's not possible to pinpoint when Crowley moved to having fixed periods of time. I suspect that it was between 1936 and 1938. Although it's not cut and dried, it seems to me that if he held this view in 1936, then he would have advised Jones not to waste his time preparing for an Aeon 2,000 years or so away.

 


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hadgigegenraum
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14/07/2020 10:35 pm  

@michael-staley

I apologize for taking a accusatory stance relative to your question, a fine one, for it seemed to me that your second post seemed to provide your answer, with a warranted plug for Mr. Hall's exemplary work, so as with your query, yes Crowley's reply to Achad is very interesting and I appreciate being appraised of this, which for some reason I seemed to have read somewhere before, but cannot place where it was published.

Now some might say that it is all of this Crowley stuff is one big 'Set up" at least the argument might be made when one considers Mr. Grant's Forward to the 1991 edition of the Magical Revival.  

Regards and 93's 

HG

 

 

 


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Michael Staley
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14/07/2020 11:12 pm  
Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

with a warranted plug for Mr. Hall's exemplary work,

Again, HG, no. David's book went out of print soon after the destruction by fire in September 2017 of most of my stock of books. The reason I referred to it is because it is the best treatment of aeonology that I have come across. I'd love to republish David's book, because I think it's one of those books which deserve to be kept in print; but realistically, the priority is bringing back into print those volumes of the Typhonian Trilogies that are currently available only on the second-hand market. Thus my commercial interest in "plugging" the book is minimal.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

for it seemed to me that your second post seemed to provide your answer

It was speculation on my part, involving a perhaps-fanciful interpretation of Crowley's response to Jones in the passage quoted above, but I'm beginning to think that it's got legs.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

which for some reason I seemed to have read somewhere before

The Jones-Crowley correspondence was amongst the material from the Gerald Yorke Collection microfiched by the O.T.O. in the early 2000s, and it has been circulating in pdf ever since. So you may have seen the pdf. Alternatively, it may have been quoted in one of the many Crowley biographies.

 

 


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hadgigegenraum
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15/07/2020 12:10 am  

@shiva

 

Thus I suppose the cow coming home to the barn might well be the last Aeon or at least the end of a day of which sometimes she does not want to come in...

Indeed certain activities can lead to paranoid states, thus yes one must temper temptations to which certain the timing is of the utmost importance, maybe never is ever wise council which is why true martial artists do not get in fights but that is of a very high level, and it is probably most true that  drunks and drug addicts do so often seek conflict or invite it because they did not understand the question or statement...

Anyways Crowley's arthritic position as you seem to have characterized might well have been a bit of an immovable stance as regards the brat Achad, to which Aleister did not deny his child, but rather nurtured the understanding, where indeed as the nimble master he provided the immovable reference to which to situate the mutable understanding. Thus the Aeon of Horus is placed in its temporal reign without denying the reality of the Aeon of Maat upon the personal nature of Achad's initiations, which of course were of an evolved nature relative to The Book of the Law.

On a martial arts note Chen Tai Chi 'Practical Method' Master Chen Zhonghua has some interesting explanations of fighting and no fighting, where no fighting comes into play when a certain understanding of 'not moving' is employed with movements....here is a nice articulation of Tai Chi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwJzU-U3Ld4

 


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Michael Staley
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15/07/2020 12:18 am  

@hadgigegenraum

Forgive the off-topicness (here I am, disrupting a thread I started), but did you used to post here on LAShTAL many years ago as HG? A delightful avatar of a man feeding a baby (with a bottle).

 


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Shiva
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15/07/2020 1:18 am  
Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Now some might say that it is all of this Crowley stuff is one big 'Set up"

I would say that, but I use different words.

Of the nine vehicles of liberation, the lower eight are all set up intellectually fabricated. Only the ninth (Rigpa, et al) is true.

Less than 01% of AC's publications are devoted to the so-called, ninth vehicle. But Crowley does move around in that space in several places. The rest of it is all set up, or made up. We have noted how a LOT of AC's package has been borrowed, inherited, or otherwise purloined from prior sources, who either made their point(s) up or got them from someone else.

Fortunately, for me, and maybe some other folks, AC's set-up works. I had to import some interpretations and concepts from parallel systems, but Crowley's system remains the solid framework and the most practical of them all. I am referring to the A.'.A.'. curriculum and the Class D practices.

I am not referring to Aeons or the philosophy of AC, which either have their ups and downs or are subject to "why did he say two opposite things?"

Posted by: @michael-staley

Thus my commercial interest in "plugging" the book is minimal.

Now let's be honest here. We're all in it for the money. Publishing "occult" or "spiritual" books is an absolute gold mine of incoming wealth. The public demand is demanding minimum 10,000 copy print runs ... every month. Talk about applying spiritual force to material ends, this is the best way to go.

 


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Jamie J Barter
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15/07/2020 2:12 am  
Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

...and speaking of blue may be Conquest will chipper in, for I must say that was an important essay in the Skoob anthology, but that is for another thread....

Thank you kindly for reaffirming its importance, HG.  I should state though (in the friendliest terms possible) that I actually entered into a state of no-mind whilst reading your preceeding long paragraph (=more prosaically, I fell asleep for four minutes): although I am a little tired this evening, you should nevertheless feel proud as this is no mean achievement, and could be very useful for a later date in terms of mental obliteration.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

...but I am sure that he might have answer to the question put forth before the assembled or disassembled as the case may be...

I will certainly try, but am not sure which question it is you're referring to (and certainly within your last posting)?   If it's to do with Michael's original one though, about when exactly AC shifted his viewpoint on the length of aeons, unfortunately I don't know.

"Blueness is as blueness does"

Norma N Joy Conquest


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hadgigegenraum
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15/07/2020 3:26 am  

@michael-staley

That would be me plugging Mr. Hall's great study of Gurdjieff and Crowley, of which Starfire did do a stupendous job in presenting, and to which I feel further fortunate to have a copy considering the tragic destruction of what are works of art in the publishing world....

No I would be a different HG, but thanks for describing that fellow's avatar, for a fine image indeed, to which I might hope to nurture the children of the Aeon, when not acting utterly childish myself, as this forum seems to lend a certain mirth to so indulge with....

Thanks

 

 


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Michael Staley
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17/07/2020 10:43 am  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

If it's to do with Michael's original one though, about when exactly AC shifted his viewpoint on the length of aeons, unfortunately I don't know.

Thanks for confirmation. I suspect it was between 1936 and 1938, but that places a great deal of weight on Crowley's choice of words in his reply to Jones in 1936, quoted above. Unfortunately by then Crowley's diaries were little more than records of meetings. appointments, and the like.


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christibrany
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17/07/2020 8:08 pm  

@michael-staley

Speaking of Records, diaries, etc I call it the same thing, Magickal Record.

It seems the older one gets the less one feels like jotting down trivialities such as what I had for lunch or who looked pretty. Seems you focus more on the overall picture...Doncha think?

 

Can't wait for Maat book to come to me via JDH. 


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Shiva
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17/07/2020 8:53 pm  
Posted by: @michael-staley

1936, quoted above. Unfortunately by then Crowley's diaries were little more than records of meetings. appointments, and the like.

And just around that time, he started a collection of special diaries or records. There was one small calendar book for each year, starting '36 or '37. They were about 4" x 5" and around one inch thick, bound in a darkish red leather (more red than maroon) with the year embossed in gold. There were 10 or 12 of them.

I thought, this must be pure gold. It was ... sort of.

These Kalendar Libers contained only IX* operations. They were spaced well enough apart (in days) to see he had obviously slowed down, as is normal in elder age. Maybe two per month. Very brief notations. Example IX* elixir: good. (Nothing else).

 


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christibrany
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18/07/2020 12:15 am  

@shiva

Sometimes it makes it seems like we're all Doomed.

Whatever that means. 


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Jamie J Barter
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18/07/2020 1:26 am  
Posted by: @shiva

And just around that time, [Crowley] started a collection of special diaries or records. There was one small calendar book for each year, starting '36 or '37. ... There were 10 or 12 of them.

Curious, as despite having trawled through the Yorke collection at the Warburg I have no recollection of ever coming across this particular collection of ("desk"?) dairies (For some reason, you put me in mind of the bogus so-called "Hitler Diaries" as erroneously certified in the awfully abased '80s by H Trevor-Roper).

I suppose if he had bought a 'job lot' of a dozen of them back in '36, it was quite prescient of him to know they would run out more or less according to schedule at the end of December, 1947 so that he didn't have any left over?  I would like to have more information from anyone on these apparently quite mythical items...

Posted by: @shiva

These Kalendar Libers contained only IX* operations. They were spaced well enough apart (in days) to see he had obviously slowed down, as is normal in elder age. Maybe two per month. Very brief notations. Example IX* elixir: good. (Nothing else).

However, Crowley confessed himself (physically) impotent several years before he died and "couldn't get it up" no more (there being no viagra(TM) at the time).  So let alone there being "maybe two ["operations"/orgasms] per month" there would be quite a few blank pages in several of the later ones if IX* was the "only" thing which they contained.  "Slim pickins", indeed.

Posted by: @michael-staley

Unfortunately by then [1936] Crowley's diaries were little more than records of meetings. appointments, and the like.

Yes: rather curious, in view of the critical importance he stressed throughout his life on keeping (up) a magical diary.  And despite his strict entry requirements to the (Typhonian) O.T.O. requiring prospective members to maintain one for nine months beforehand, Kenneth Grant's own diaries from his later years (as illustrated by reproductions in the republication of some of his works from the Trilogies) unfortunately also displayed an apparent paucity of anything more "in depth". 

Does it all therefore amount to being just a case of "Do as I say not as I do", or what?

Ever so Slightly perplexed

N Joy

 


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Michael Staley
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18/07/2020 10:46 am  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Curious, as despite having trawled through the Yorke collection at the Warburg I have no recollection of ever coming across this particular collection of ("desk"?) dairies

When I read Shiva's description, I thought at first of the "Royal Court" Diaries that Crowley used from the early to mid thirties onwards. After his death, Crowley's papers were in the custody of John Symonds. The Royal Court Diaries were not there, and Yorke subsequently purchased them from Michael Houghton (don't ask; it's a mystery). Those and earlier Diaries were subsequently typed by Kenneth Grant; these are the typed copies of the Diaries now at the Warburg. I've seen no copies of nor reference to the Diaries to which Shiva refers. In any case, they would not have been lodged at the Warbug, since if they were amongst Crowley's papers then they would have been sent to Germer.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Yes: rather curious, in view of the critical importance he stressed throughout his life on keeping (up) a magical diary.

Well, I don't think it is that curious, and in my opinion it doesn't detract from the advice he gave out on the matter. So Crowley fell from the high standards that he had advocated at one time; he wasn't the first, and won't be the last. It has been my experience that the principal value of keeping a Diary is to oneself. Where there is, for instance, gradework undertaken which someone else needs to review, then the relevant material can simply be extracted.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

And despite his strict entry requirements to the (Typhonian) O.T.O. requiring prospective members to maintain one for nine months beforehand, Kenneth Grant's own diaries from his later years (as illustrated by reproductions in the republication of some of his works from the Trilogies) unfortunately also displayed an apparent paucity of anything more "in depth". 

That's not the case. Kenneth kept two Diaries. The main one was an account of the activities of the day. The second was a pocket diary, a much briefer affair which contains a record of letters received and letters sent, books read, appointments, and work done; the endpapers of the Trilogy volumes  are for the most part drawn from these pocket diaries.

Kenneth and Steffi destroyed their main Diaries a few years before he died. He told me afterwards that it was because they contained so much material which he regarded as private. I wouldn't have done that, personally. It's not unknown for people to leave instructions for the destruction of their papers after their death; regrettable though it is for people interested in the work of that person, it's their decision to make.


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Jamie J Barter
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18/07/2020 11:02 am  
Posted by: @michael-staley

In any case, they would not have been lodged at the Warbug, since if they were amongst Crowley's papers then they would have been sent to Germer.

Perhaps this accounts for how Shiva might know so much about it, he having been associated with (if not an actual part of) the 'burglary' party which raided Sascha Germer's property for the Aleister Crowley Archive?  I dare say any such volumes would have now gone up in the Solar Lodge conflagration, however...

Posted by: @michael-staley

That's not the case. Kenneth kept two Diaries. The main one was an account of the activities of the day. [...]

Kenneth and Steffi destroyed their main Diaries a few years before he died. He told me afterwards that it was because they contained so much material which he regarded as private. I wouldn't have done that, personally. It's not unknown for people to leave instructions for the destruction of their papers after their death; regrettable though it is for people interested in the work of that person, it's their decision to make.

Thank you for pointing this out, Michael.

N Joy


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belmurru
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18/07/2020 12:59 pm  
Posted by: @michael-staley

 

Kenneth and Steffi destroyed their main Diaries a few years before he died. He told me afterwards that it was because they contained so much material which he regarded as private. I wouldn't have done that, personally. It's not unknown for people to leave instructions for the destruction of their papers after their death; regrettable though it is for people interested in the work of that person, it's their decision to make.

I wouldn't have done that, either. But we don't know the details. 

One solution for potentially dangerous (or reputation-destroying) material would be to have them legally sealed for a set period, say 50 years, or even 99 years, if you are worried about your children. If you have the means, I don't know what it takes. There is nothing in mine I wouldn't mine being seen, even now. Some of the other people involved might not want to see it "out," though. 


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Shiva
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18/07/2020 9:19 pm  
Posted by: @christibrany

Sometimes it makes it seems like we're all Doomed.

Anicca, anicca.

"Everything passes away."

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Curious, as despite having trawled through the Yorke collection at the Warburg I have no recollection of ever coming across this particular collection of ("desk"?) dairies (For some reason, you put me in mind of the bogus so-called "Hitler Diaries" as erroneously certified in the awfully abased '80s by H Trevor-Roper).

Whatever the Yorke-Warburg or your recollection indicate, my report had not the slightest touch of bogusness involved.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

suppose if he had bought a 'job lot' of a dozen of them back in '36,

It was not a nut job job-lot. Each was obviously ordered each year, as the color of the leather varied slightly, and the gold embossed font had annual variations ... mostly dealing with "how much gold" got embossed (actually "blind-stamped").

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

However, Crowley confessed himself (physically) impotent

All howevers aside, he was active and noting elixir qualities, although at widely-spaced intervals.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Yes: rather curious, in view of the critical importance he stressed throughout his life on keeping (up) a magical diary.

It is not curious at all.You have woken up from your samadhi nap and are now nitpicking every post with speculations. It's simple. When people get older, their reproductive system slows down ... sometimes stops completely. When initiates get older, they sometimes actually gain access to the obscure states mentioned in the mystical literature. They often see the error of their previous ways. In particular, they are liable to write less, attempt pro-creation less, and push previous concepts less, because they have seen the illusion in all this stuff.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Does it all therefore amount to being just a case of "Do as I say not as I do", or what?

It all amounts to getting old and not giving a shit about things that don't really count. I guarantee, barring early karmic or accidental early deceasement, you will come to appreciate this FACT in full.

At your age now, you certainly already know this (partially), because you must have by now been forced to abandon certain people, concepts, and practices, so I know that you know this syndrome.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

such volumes would have now gone up in the Solar Lodge conflagration, however...

Worship me with fire and steel ... then I will burn down and shatter your steel house(s). It's a good thing an "invisible house" still standeth. But it's not standething where the Solar ranch concrete foundations are still visible on G'Earth (TM by the Borg).

I returned there once with Soror Rena. 1973. Things were bleak. the "Borris Pile" of construction materials still stoodeth.

I returned there with Soror Artemis (my civil wife)(1989 or '90). Everything had been cleaned up. Only the massive concrete foundations survived, plus on 9" steel well-pipe (it had been filled with rocks. Who would plug a working well in the desert? We did a ceremony. The results were so overwhelming that we just jumped in the 280Z and got the hell out of there.

A massive storm had suddenly built up just across the Colorado River, in Arizona, probably 10 miles away. It was dark, even in the night, and it was coming directly at us. Irrespective of the legal libation in our systems, I demonstrated what a 280Z can do, mostly at full throttle. The winds were just beginning to seriously buffet us when we reached the asphant highway. Only a few drops of rain hit the winshield as we cleared the forbidden zone and zoomed back to the Da;ath Motel in Blythe, home of the redneck freemasons and their paramilitary jeep club.

(There is more to this story, but nor here, not now. I will put it in an Appendix to some vague book to be published inside the next decade. It will give away the secret of The Solar Toy(TM).

Um, yes, the Royal Court Diaries, being the record of AC's sexual activities in the shortest possible notes, were exposed to The Solar Toy(TM).

Posted by: @belmurru

I wouldn't have done that, either.

I did it. But I transferred the data to digital format first. Then I printed this "trash" in books. I wonder where I would fall on the I WOULD/WOULDN'T HAVE DONE THAT?

Since we have either free will or True Will, I guess that means anybody and everybody gets to exercise their preference, desires, or Holy Will in various ways.

It's all an experiment to see what works best.

 

 


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djedi
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25/07/2020 2:21 am  
Posted by: @christibrany

Can't wait for Maat book to come to me via JDH. 

I got an email from JDH, today. They say it'll be another 7-14 days by media mail, though it could take even longer.


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Michael Staley
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25/07/2020 2:44 pm  
Posted by: @djedi

I got an email from JDH, today. They say it'll be another 7-14 days by media mail, though it could take even longer.

A large consignment of The Incoming of the Aeon of Maat and other titles was despatched by sea in mid-March. The ship docked in Baltimore a day or two late, and took ages to make it to Washington by road. It was a very frustrating time, and probably made worse by the coronavirus disruptions.

Many of the individual orders that I have sent out from London over the last few weeks have been subject to delays. Despatch to addresses in Australia, for instance, are taking two or three times as long as pre-covid. Delay, though, seems to be occurring to all destinations.


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