The catholic virgin
 
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The catholic virgin


 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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93
Right now I'm travelling all around Europe, so I didn't have a chance to connect to lashtal, my beloved lashtal, but now that I have some quiet time here in Rome I'd like to ask a question, or perhaps, to ask for opinions or views on an image that seems to be ever-present in catholic europe, the virgin.

I just came back from the vatican museum and, just like any other catholic site I've seen so far, the virgin always seems to be the same age as christ, this makes me wonder, is it really meant to represent a mother? or is it that in some level or another it actually represents a lover?

It wouldn't be so far-fetched after all many gods have their mothers for wives or lovers, also because it would seem like an incomplete picture, the father, the son and no wife, no nothing, at least this way he has an "outlet" so to speak, a woman by his side. I don't know, I just thought it would be interesting to meditate on this.

Also, in a lot of icons I see the virgin stepping on the dragon, but something strikes me as odd, is it as if she never pays attention to this action, as if stepping on dragons was a regular habit. My question, or the matter that sets my mind to ponder, is this: is she stepping on a dragon, a serpent? or is it that she stands on the dragon?

Standing on the snake has a different connotation, in magickal terms, psychollogically, even sexually, it's not the same thing. So, any ideas? Also, I'd like to ask if anyone knows what has already been said about this particular relationship between the virgin, the archetypical woman, and the serpent or dragon. What exactly did the symbol of the dragon meant? Is it only form-less energy?

One last thought, each time I step on a cathedral, even in the vatican, I realize something important, it's a museum, not a temple. Magnificent magick must have been carried out in such outstanding settings, the gargantuan proportions, the beauty of sculptures, the whole temple must have been incredible and it's magick potent. But, now it's been reduced to a museum, an attraction, one step above disenyworld. There is nothing sacred in Cologne's magnificent cathedral, it feels like a virgin who has been raped, that sense of desecration, as if a veil of pure sainthood had been torn in pieces by the violent paw of a tameless beast.

Has anyone else felt that in a cathedral?

93/93


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algoul
(@algoul)
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well AC said that when you enter in the S. Peter Cathredral in Rome you feel the temporary power at work and you must remind what kind of power, a temporary one which has at least some 2000 years...but if you search around I think that there are many places in which some kind of holiness persists


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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There is an interesing and very accurate mycotheological interpretation to this whole symbology.
it requires the virgin/whore standing on a white dragon/beast, not on a serpent/snake..

The representations where a male diety (like Horus, Krishna or Jesus) is standing on a serpent,
requires that the head is crushed and/or separated from the tail.
I guess there are many interpretations to this. A popular astrotheological one is,
that the conjoined serpent in the macrocosm may be interpreted as the milky way. (NThIVL)
But the constellation of virgo is not near the spot where the milky way is crossing the zodiac,
so here its most likely not about that.

To the egypts the principle of fertility by immaculate conception was (among other things) symbolized using the scarab.
It was not understood how the scarabs replicate. But people could see a single scarab crawling into a pile of dirt,
and later hundreds of small scarabs crawling out of it. It seemed a mystery.

Another symbol associated with virginity and immaculate conception would be the shell.
Until recently it was not clear how the shells replicate.
People assumed that the white pearls inside the shell have to be some kind of divine sperm.
There are images of female dieties (like Mary, Isis or Venus) standing on a shell. (the Mermaid stereotypes)

To understand the Symbology of the female whore/virgin riding/standing on the beast,
there is yet another image. It seems to be the most important key-symbol to most (if not all) religions,
right after the sun: The sacred Amanita Muscaria Mushroom.
This mushroom literally a key with the ability to open the gates of heaven and/or hell,
when properly ingested (--eucharisty).

Mushrooms replicate using tiny spores. They are so tiny that they cant be seen by the bare eye.
Long time ago it was also a mystery how the mushrooms replicate. The Lifcycle of the mushroom was
thus explained with the concept of immcaulate conception as well.
The sacred mushroom was thus another symbol for divine fertility by immaculate conception.

If you look at the growth of the fly-mushroom, it makes sense to distingiush the lower white
part from the upper red part. The lower white (phallic) part would be male.
The red part riding uppon the white part would be female.
The mushroom was thus also attributed with the properties of the hermaphrodite.
Interestingly the red/scarlet part of the mushroom is sprinkled with white dots. (Sperm on Blood, Amanita -- Amrita)
The female is generated out of the male. (~ Gen-Isis, Gen-Eve)

This also explains the paradoxon of the adams rib.
In the old testament of the bible, eve is created out of adams rib.
Like the male giving birth to female part.. not vice versa like one would assume..
Is seems like a paradoxon to people who dont know/understand the origin of the forbidden fruit described there:
By size and color, the young white part of the amanita muscaria looks like a rib.

Later the mushroom looks like a wheel (or an eye with pupil) from below.
Liber AL says: 'Let Mary inviolate be torn upon wheels'
..its her destiny by nature while the male diety is supposed to die on the cross.

by the lifecycle stage this happens, the mushroom itself is showing the shape of a chalice/grail
collecting the blood of the dying diety. the mushroom is finally showing his yellow/golden color.

Crowleys 'Hymn to Pan' seems to have some rather direct mycotheological references:
'wash thy white thigh, beautiful God'
..here the white thigh of pan would equal to the white phallus of the beast.
(the lower white part of the sacred mushroom)

'Goat of thy flock, I am gold, I am god'
the mushroom in his older state when he shows golden color.
the christians called it the lamb (or lamp) of god.

'death on the horn of the Unicorn'.
another way to describe the death of dieties that antropomorphize the sacred mushroom.

'the token erect of thorny thigh'
again the white part of the mushroom. Jesus was wearing a crown of thorns while dying on the cross.
the mushroom also does have a crown of white thorns before he gets into the stage resembling the cross.
..also while jesus died on the cross, there was a curtain lacerated in a temple. (the veil of the mushroom)

'Give me the sign of the Open Eye'
like the sign of the wheel.. ..the middle aged open mushroom watched from below.

'Io!'
like the 'IAO' formula without the center 'A'.
In connection to the mushrooms, the genders would be are interchanged.
'O' for the female part (not Osiris)
'I' for the male, phallic part (not Isis)


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Proteus
(@proteus)
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

The title of Book 4 was also inspired by Crowley's visit to St. Peter's and the 'Qabalistic Architect' that designed it. [MWT]

John

Love is the law, love under will.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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93 Alkwin_K,

Wonderful post!

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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I think, and it's my opinion that, with all that stuff about holynes aside, the artistic moments with the St. Peter's cathedral are much much more inspireing than any holyness. i think that was AC's inspiration rather than "sacred" one. I mean he also speaks about the art all the time, as every good artist he also respects the work of others...that is something that should be considered.
I often think about AC as an artist rather than a all the stuff he was... that is also something to meditate on.


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dyulax
(@dyulax)
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Mary was not a virgin! rsrs

I think that's funnie Mary's portuguse representation name:

MARIA

(Mem - Aleph - Resh - Yod - Aleph)

MAYA with the Phallic and Solar Resh

{ 😛

"God's Spirit was hovering over the surface of the waters."

I connect those waters with Binah, that give me a feminine idea as Mary.

Suppositions.

(excuse me by my bad english writing)


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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Catholic virgins are my favourite kind 😀


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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93,
thanks Azidonis.
..just watched the The Pharmacratic Inquisition 2007 video.
it mentoins the image of the virgin stepping on the serpent in relation to the stars and the constellations. (at ~24min)
My comment about Leviathan and the milky-way not relating to virgo was sort of pointless, as this symbology doesnt seem to be particulary about the conjoined serpent. The name of this Serpent is HYDRA. Thats the constellation right underneath virgo:
wiki: Hydra Constellation


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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How can Jesus have four siblings when his mother was a virgin?

"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not his sisters here with us? And they took offense at him."
Mark 6:3

How do we call a woman who has four kids, some from different men?

It is clear, however, where the picture originated from.


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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"fraseth" wrote:
How can Jesus have four siblings when his mother was a virgin?

No doubt I'm missing the point here: couldn't they be his younger brothers?

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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"lashtal" wrote:
"fraseth" wrote:
How can Jesus have four siblings when his mother was a virgin?

No doubt I'm missing the point here: couldn't they be his younger brothers?

They claim she's a perpetul virgin, based on the OT, Ezekial and Isaiah.

"The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin." (Cathecism of the Catholic Church), which contradicts the Bible:
"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Rom. 3:23. The only exception seems to be Jesus himself. "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." 2 Cor 5:21 and 1 Pet. 2:2

We have four siblings right here, and another possible two in Matth. 13:56, where a plural of sister occurs, which indicates that there was more than one. If you include Jesus himself we have seven children, plus a half brother named James, mentioned in Galatians 1:19. Also compare Mark 3:18. He must have been the son of Alphaeus, the "eternal virgin's" 2nd husband.

So if she as the wife of two husbands and the mother of possibly seven children was obviously not free of sin, as the OT requires, the only explanations I can come up with is that she was either not the mother of God, or Jesus was not the son of God.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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93,

In the physical world we know a few things for certain.

1. A fit womb is required in order for the birth of a human being to occur.
2. A womb becomes fit by the act of sex, or other articifial insemanation processes. Basically, the womb has to be fertilized by the male sperm.
3. The only way for virgins to become pregnant is through artificial ensemanatin, which was most likely not available at the reported time of "Jesus'" birth. This leads us to assume that virgins, at that period of mankind, did not get pregnant.
4. There is no way for a man or a woman to impregnate themselves, ie. asexually.
5. There is no "God up in Heaven" sitting on a golden throne with a crown of thorns and a host of angels lighting his seven golden candlesticks... its all a metaphor, as anyone calling themselves an Occultist should know. Therefore, without this singular masculine ultimate Divinity, there can be no impregnation of any kind by him unto a human female.

It's all a myth...

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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the four siblings of the solar jesus could be understood like the four sons of horus.
there is an interpretation by wich they are representing the four brightest stars in the cardinal points of the zodiac.
those four stars depict a big cross on the zodiac.
they are:

Aldebaran (in Taurus)
Regulus (in Leo)
Antares (in Scorpio)
Formalhaut (near Aquarius)


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 
"asclepio" wrote:
93
the virgin always seems to be the same age as christ, this makes me wonder, is it really meant to represent a mother? or is it that in some level or another it actually represents a lover?
93/93

93 asclepio, Most of the "busts" of famous people whom actually exsisted are depicted age appropriately, Such as Caesar, various Pharoas, etc. etc because that's what people remember. Christianity itself was not a recognized religion until well after (not sure about the years but 200-300 CE jumps out at me), . . . which indicates to me, that this is something people are trying to create, not a memory. Mary couldn't possibly look older that 25 and have a 32 - 33 year old son, and as a later post indicates, 7 children, no one would look that good after 7 kids ! 😆

"Has anyone ever felt that in a cathedral"

Certainly, there is a cathedral in Savannah, Georgia, I have had the pleasure of visiting a few times, I think in the architecture, the way it was designed, the air space inside the building and your percieved interpretations of power will, shape the way YOU feel inside, back when I was a child I really thought God lived there! 😯
Now as an adult, the building is magnificient still, and the energy quite high, but my feelings upon walking in are quite different. 😉
Q
93, 93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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From the commentary on Genesis by St. Victorinus c.300CE

Who, then, that is taught in the law of God, who that is filled with the Holy Spirit, does not see in his heart, that on the same day on which the dragon seduced Eve, the angel Gabriel brought the glad tidings to the Virgin Mary...?

Here, Eve represents the currupted and corrupting woman, Mary the redemption of woman. Eve brought the possibility of 'evil' into the world, Mary brought the possibility of deliverance from 'evil' when she bore Christ. The Virgin standing, unnoticing, upon the dragon/serpent/snake seems a pretty clear statement of her character and function to me.

Mary appearing the same age as her son, I would assume is meant to represent her eternal state of purity and grace; her incorruptibility. The Catholic church spent hundreds of years inventing stories out of thin air to support the belief that Mary was, and always remained, a virgin (Who knows why?), it follows that the iconography should find a way to represent this bizarre idea.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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Topic starter  

93
It's been a while but I'm back. Thanks for the comments, very helpful. On the age thing, I know artist don't care much for memory, that it is an attempt to keep the person in their prime moment, but there is such a strong sexual connotation that I just can't pretend it isn't there. Eve being seduced, the virgin being perpetually a virgin and the whole catholic fear-of-sex.

True story, I met a priest once, there's a strong catholic presence here in Mexico, that told me that he had problems with more than one of his followers because they started to fall in love with that image, even to consider her a sex symbol. And sometimes it's true, she is hot (wow, that sounded prosaic, but it's true). There is a sexual tension in the catholic church while it is handling Mary as the mother of us all, and at the same time as a beautiful white girl with gorgeous body, not to count Eve and the seduction.

Alkwin_K,
That was a great post. Where can I find more information on those subjects, the theme of asexual or inmaculate conceptions in symbolism is very interesting. I haven't got the time to study astrology yet, so I'm a little behind that subject, and I'll need more time to think about the mushroom thing, that is some wild and new stuff to me. Well, I think you just stunned my brain for the day, I'll appreciate it if you could give me some more info on the whole mushroom, cross, reproduction, subject, maybe books or articles. Thanks.

Oh, and by the way. After visiting all those cathedrals, I must say some are better than others, in terms of holliness, maybe it's just me, but the Gaudi cathedral in Barcelona, "la sagrada familia" (in english: "the holy family") is a nightmare, I just can't imagine any powerful magick being done there. I know it's probably a subjective thing, but seriously, the man had issues and that church, with it's iconography on corn, wheat and other agricultural themes is just awful, sorry.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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"asclepio" wrote:
93
True story, I met a priest once, there's a strong catholic presence here in Mexico, that told me that he had problems with more than one of his followers because they started to fall in love with that image, even to consider her a sex symbol. And sometimes it's true, she is hot (wow, that sounded prosaic, but it's true). There is a sexual tension in the catholic church while it is handling Mary as the mother of us all, and at the same time as a beautiful white girl with gorgeous body, not to count Eve and the seduction.

What are you getting at? Are you telling us that the Catholics are dreaming about banging the Virgin Mary? Gosh, there is some Cradle of Filth lyrics out there, something like "I raped the virgin Mary..." I thought that was as bad as it gets.

She must have been a virgin, they even examined her hymen post-mortem.

http://www.gospels.net/translations/infancyjamestranslation.html

(Chapt. 20)


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

Well wouldn't ya know it, someone pointed me to this a few minutes ago.... Looks like Quan Yin also standing on a dragon's or serpent's head.

http://www.bobbyneeladams.com/temples2.html


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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"asclepio" wrote:
Where can I find more information on those subjects

i would suggest to watch the Pharmacratic Inquisition movie from gnostic media.
the link to new version of this video was allready posted above in my reply about Hydra. (it is linked behind the word 'video' via digg.com)
but there is also a longer, old version of this movie that goes far deeper into the details.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-455536507300389515 4"> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4555365073003895154
it has alot of references wich might be worth to check out.
but i think this old video is not really promoted by gnostic media anymore, because there were some errors and mistakes.
http://www.gnosticmedia.com/communion/viewtopic.php?t=17 1"> http://www.gnosticmedia.com/communion/viewtopic.php?t=171 <-- they are listed here
i think it might need a signup to those forums to see the error list in that thread.
but its a very good place to discuss fertility and astro- symbolism and realted stuff alike.

In the field of astrotheology there are many authors, speakers and researchers with interesting interpretations..
the most notable one of them i guess, would be Jordan Maxwell.
Some love him, some hate him, but he is definitly someone who should be known.
Here for example a 10min clip, where he talks at some conspiracy conference about the law while introducing another speaker.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUbvxUaC0I w"> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUbvxUaC0Iw
he dryly explains alot concepts about maritime (mary-time?) law with a relatively fast pace..
..like for example, why the law demands all ships to be female.
Funnily, you can hear that the audince seems to be unsure whether they should laugh or not,
when he backs up alot of the stuff he is saying with his smart wordplays. 😀


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