The dark arquetype
 
Notifications
Clear all

The dark arquetype  

Page 1 / 2
  RSS

 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/08/2009 7:09 pm  

Greeyings to all, like I said in the introduction I´m new to the forum and the subject, relatively, aswell.

I ´ve been lately reading quite a bit on the left hand path, gnosis, and the related subjects. I have some doubts and questions I would really appreciate answering by the experts in the forum, and hopefully exchange views about this.

From what Ive been imbibing through numerous and different paths of research, my first inquery would be related to the concept of the arquetype. I read some things off of Michael Fords works and he said that the adversary, as a transcultural manifestation represented the dark arquetype within every man and woman. What does that exactly mean? I understood it as part of ones own hidden aspect of the mind or psyche. Further on, so many names of "gods" or spirits or demons etc.. are used, like the ancient ones from egyptian mithology or persian etc..set ahriman, etc..(or solomon and the 72 "demons").All of these "gods" or dark forces when "invoked" do they actually refer to the invocation of ones hidden aspects as well? as in the qlippoth for instance, when we toalk about deific forces, or sprits that guard each spere?

Thank you very much and as I am not the expert, here feel free to comment on anything I have said.


Quote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/08/2009 10:24 pm  

If you are interested in the Left Hand Path, I think you would be great off looking at great authors such as Kenneth Grant, Austin Osman Spare, Thomas Karlsson, Andrew Chumbley.

More important than theory however is practice. A good rule of thumb is to discard all those drives that pushes ideas that wants you to read and read and read books so that you will have a coherent "understanding"/"hypothetic worldview"/anything else one might imagine one might theoretically need in the beginning when starting off working with magic. Some people like their armchairs so much and are not really willing to accept the fact that magic is often not something that is fun. Discipline discipline discipline..

Find people that you can meet face to face that truly are initiates in the Left Hand Path and ask them for practical guidelines or experiment yourself until you are beginning to get into a current that will guide you further on the path.


ReplyQuote
mika
 mika
(@mika)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 360
20/08/2009 11:33 pm  
"Magnum" wrote:
All of these "gods" or dark forces when "invoked" do they actually refer to the invocation of ones hidden aspects as well? as in the qlippoth for instance, when we toalk about deific forces, or sprits that guard each spere?

That is how I approach my magical work, regarding both the deamons and the angels.

In relation to kabbalah, the tree of life is essentially a map of the universe, both outer and inner universe. If you do your work based on the model that these "gods" refer to hidden aspects of your self, you are working on your inner universe, which naturally simultaneously affects your outer universe. If you do your work based on the model that they refer to external beings, your inner universe will also simultaneously be affected, but I've found through my own experience and by observing others, that that 'external' approach tends to lead people to avoid taking responsibility for their own lives. So even if both approaches *might* lead to the same results, the 'internal' approach seems to have far less traps and be far more practical and productive.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
21/08/2009 12:12 am  

Thanks rzk for the tip. I just needed to get some basic priniciples right, to not misunderstand them , as...lets say a montheist would misinterpret or change it´s meaning.

"mika" wrote:
"Magnum" wrote:
All of these "gods" or dark forces when "invoked" do they actually refer to the invocation of ones hidden aspects as well? as in the qlippoth for instance, when we toalk about deific forces, or sprits that guard each spere?

That is how I approach my magical work, regarding both the deamons and the angels.

In relation to kabbalah, the tree of life is essentially a map of the universe, both outer and inner universe. If you do your work based on the model that these "gods" refer to hidden aspects of your self, you are working on your inner universe, which naturally simultaneously affects your outer universe. If you do your work based on the model that they refer to external beings, your inner universe will also simultaneously be affected, but I've found through my own experience and by observing others, that that 'external' approach tends to lead people to avoid taking responsibility for their own lives. So even if both approaches *might* lead to the same results, the 'internal' approach seems to have far less traps and be far more practical and productive.

Thats what I thought, simply names/representation of hidden aspects of our selves that can be so powerful (power of th psyche) that could actually manifest in the outside world aswell, as they are energies. Now, referring to the external approach you mentioned, how would this differ from the montheistic literal belief. Cause as far as I know, the only god there is is YOU, therefore these "dark gods" etc.. are only symbols to represent inner aspects, and not like a montheist would beleive in an outer "God" etc..


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
21/08/2009 9:09 am  
"rzk" wrote:
If you are interested in the Left Hand Path, I think you would be great off looking at great authors such as Kenneth Grant, Austin Osman Spare, Thomas Karlsson, Andrew Chumbley.

More important than theory however is practice. A good rule of thumb is to discard all those drives that pushes ideas that wants you to read and read and read books so that you will have a coherent "understanding"/"hypothetic worldview"/anything else one might imagine one might theoretically need in the beginning when starting off working with magic. Some people like their armchairs so much and are not really willing to accept the fact that magic is often not something that is fun. Discipline discipline discipline..

Find people that you can meet face to face that truly are initiates in the Left Hand Path and ask them for practical guidelines or experiment yourself until you are beginning to get into a current that will guide you further on the path.

Could someone please define the term 'left hand path Thelema,' as compared with, I suppose, 'right hand path Thelema,' please? (Assuming that this thread has something to do with Thelema, right?)


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
21/08/2009 12:45 pm  

AC defines the left and right paths pretty thoroughly in 3 chapters of MWT:
http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/mwt/mwt_06.html
http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/mwt/mwt_07.html
http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/mwt/mwt_08.html

Before I'd set off gung-ho on a particular path, I'd think it a good idea to fully understand the points from AC's higher level of perspective.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
21/08/2009 2:10 pm  

So like I was saying about the dark arquetype, what does this exactly mean? When you look into the qlippothic "gods" or "demons" do they represent the "bad" aspects of ourselves, that have to be confronted in order to overcome them and ascend? Is this a correct or incorrect statment?, in laymans terms.

Do the angelic aspects refer to more superficial , easily accesible areas of the psyche and the darkness more dangerous or intolerant areas to access?

Also if it is true that the most imortant thing is balance between the 2 forces of light and darkness within, then why is the dark aspect given priority as far as exploration goes?


ReplyQuote
ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3139
21/08/2009 2:38 pm  

"Arquetype"?
Is this an example of qlippothic spelling?
The pedant in me insists on pointing out it's archetype.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
21/08/2009 2:48 pm  
"ignant666" wrote:
"Arquetype"?
Is this an example of qlippothic spelling?
The pedant in me insists on pointing out it's archetype.

You are right, it´s just that ive seen it spelled like that in some articles. So what can you tell me about it from an adversarial point of view? Thanks


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
21/08/2009 7:57 pm  
"withigo" wrote:
AC defines the left and right paths pretty thoroughly in 3 chapters of MWT:
http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/mwt/mwt_06.html
http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/mwt/mwt_07.html
http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/mwt/mwt_08.html

Before I'd set off gung-ho on a particular path, I'd think it a good idea to fully understand the points from AC's higher level of perspective.

Thanks, withigo, but I'm familiar with AC's perspective, and I don't recognize that in this present reference. No, perhaps Alex can explain, or someone else well versed in this odd (to me) division of Thelema itself into vertical components.


ReplyQuote
alysa
(@alysa)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 655
21/08/2009 9:38 pm  

Austin Osman Spare and Andrew Chumbley aren't thelemic writers, Andrew Chumbley is influenced by Aleister Crowley, Austin Osman Spare certainly wasn't a thelemic writer, can't speak for Michael Ford but looked at Amazon.com for you as far as I'm concerned he also isn't a thelemic writer, though might been influenced by it. For me ofcourse Kenneth Grant certainly is a Thelemic writer and Thomes Karlsson also, though I consider Thomas Karsson of a very special Thelemic denomination.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
21/08/2009 9:58 pm  

Thanks, alysa, but what does this vertical dissection of Thelema itself into 'left' and 'right' mean? That is what I am a bit lost on.


ReplyQuote
alysa
(@alysa)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 655
21/08/2009 11:27 pm  

I was merely replying to RZK's advise and Magnum's question. As I certainly see it there are left-hand Traditions in Thelema of which for example Thomas Karlsson and Kenneth Grant are representatives, and there are left-hand Traditions without Thelema of which for example Austin Osman Spare and Andrew Chumbley are representatives.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/08/2009 2:16 am  

Yes, alsa, but, its colorful associated characters aside, is Thelema as a whole susceptible or vulnerable to this sort of subdivision, being as internally balanced as it is?


ReplyQuote
kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1850
22/08/2009 3:02 am  

Kenneth Grant uses the term Left Hand Path in his works and it is an on-going theme. However, as discussed in other threads, his view of things is not steeped in a dualistic worldview wherein he has chosen the side of "darkness" over the side of "light." He makes it clear at the onset of Cults Of The Shadow that there is a "Tantric Current" which "appears to diverge into two major streams that reflect endlessly the original rift between the votaries of the feminine and masculine creative principals known technically in Tantra as the Left and Right Hand Paths."

He goes on to say:

"It is the almost universal failure to understand the proper function of the Left Hand Path that has led to its denigration-principally on account of its unconventional practices-and to an imperfect realization of the ultimate Mysteries on the part of those who unable to synthesize the two."

In this sense, Camlion, I see Thelema not so much as

susceptible or vulnerable to this sort of subdivision

but applicable to work and development in either realm, within the larger

internally balanced

vision of the "synthesis" KG speaks of. "Ultimate Mysteries" and "ultimate sparks of the intimate fire."

93,

Kyle


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/08/2009 10:26 am  

I think in this sense, there is a lot of misunderstanding in relation to the different aspects of light and darkness. The left hand path in essence doesn´t or shoudn´t only focus on the dark side, in must find the balance of the two. So therefore, in the qlippoth for instance, you descend into the demonic to then ascend into light. Its very clear with the black flame concept or luciferian flame, as in gaining gnosis or light from the darkness, but always balancing the angelic with the demoinic, only that through the demonic (could it be compared to Jung´s shadow side?) can we transform and "ascend".

The imoprtant difference traditionally between the left and right is related to the "god like state". Right hand path seeks union, on the other hand, the left hand seeks separation and independent consious existence in universe B, that is sitra ahra/ wrathful chaos/anticosmicç/acausal etc..or what is reffered to as "kaivalya" in vamachara tantra.

So with respect to Thelema, where can we position it?


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/08/2009 12:20 pm  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

"Camlion" wrote:
Could someone please define the term 'left hand path Thelema,' as compared with, I suppose, 'right hand path Thelema,' please? (Assuming that this thread has something to do with Thelema, right?)

The term left hand path and right hand path come from Tantra. Blavatsky who studied Buddhist Tantra, which wiped out it's left hand path, tried to identify them with the western term of Black Brothers which come from the Albigensian Crusade and means Cathars, Kabbalists, Satanists, Witches and any other Heretical groups within Christianity. It is easy to see why they did this. The Left Hand Path Tantrics led the Indian Mutiny in the 1840s and held a similar position to the Hindu orthodoxy who wrote books on how evil the left hand path is.

The trouble is though if you scratch below the surface you find that both for the western Black Brothers and the Tantric Left Hand Path, all the bad said about them is unfounded and has obviously been made by the Right Hand Path wishing to keep control of its students. The White Brotherhood of the Albigensian Crusade acted more like Klu Klux Klan or the SS in fact, lynching Jews, Cathars and Heretics, and were not ‘spiritual’ in the slightest. More just orthodox extremists using murder to forward their cause, sound familiar.

I have made a twenty year study of all these issues and have concluded that a Black Brother of the Left Hand Path of Thelema is the correct path for me. I favour it as there is no hierarchy, orthodoxy, morality, and no fixed doctrine really either. The object is not to control the world but to not let others to take control of one’s own life. It is also more Goddess oriented than God, which I prefer. I have made a study of the Shakta Tantric system (ultra Left Hand Path), in particular the Mahavidyas or Ten Wisdom Goddesses and identify them as the Ten aspects of Nuith even. I’m allowed to cross cultivate these differing belief system as the Left Hand Path is essentially anti-religion in all its forms. We don’t through the baby out with the bath water though and do still use god forms and other spiritual ideas in order to get to the underlying meaning. The left hand path forgoes the crossing of the abyss until death, when in Left Hand Path Tantra; Sammadhi is reputed to be guaranteed. Another good thing about Left Hand Path initiation is it cannot be taken back, nobody can be expelled. This leaves all of the petty mindedness of the Right Hand Path and its squabbles over disagreements. In the Left Hand Path we are not expected to all have the same view or beliefs, rather the opposite, a spirit of ‘vive la difference’ is more like it.

So Camlion, now that I have explained the terms I can apply it to Thelema. I may not be a religious Thelemite but as my reading of The Book Of The Law is what triggered my starting out on this path, I regard it with the same reverence as guru even. I could never abandon it, it is part of me even as it is also my link with what went before me. I may not be religious and dislike people trying to come up with good vs bad propaganda to brain wash the students with but I am still 100% Thelemite. I hope that helps.

Love is the law, love under will.

Alex,
Happy to be a Black Brother Of The Left Hand Path.


ReplyQuote
alysa
(@alysa)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 655
22/08/2009 2:53 pm  

To my understanding Thelema is susceptible to it, as for myself I'm a student of Thelema and other magical and religious systems, with relation for my Thelemic study I'm interested in both, I do not claim to have an expert vision of left-hand path or right-hand path Traditions, I'm merely a student who tries to study it.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/08/2009 4:04 pm  

Alex Bennet: black brother, as in failing when crossing the abyss and defeating choronzon?


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/08/2009 5:12 pm  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

"Magnum" wrote:
Alex Bennet: black brother, as in failing when crossing the abyss and defeating choronzon?

I'm not sure what you are asking here. If you mean, do I mean that by deliberately adopting Crowley's stab at the Left Hand Path, I am in fact a sad misguided soul who is intent on self destruction and the Universe? I am sorry to disabuse you but no such people have ever existed, they are simply bedtime stories to scare vulnerable Neophytes into obeying their masters without question.

I am actually adopting Blavatsky and Crowley's insult of the Left Hand Path much in the same way as black people might use the 'N' word amongst themselves in order to diffuse the evil of the way it was used to denigrate them. I actually think the Right Hand Path is misguided.

The talk of Black Brother refusing to cross the abyss and withhold their blood from the cup of Babalon is all to do with the Right Hand Paths system of trusting in hierarchy than anything to do with some moral issue. I worship Kali who is the 1st of the Mahavidyas. She is the Shakti (power) of Kala (death and time) so you could say she is all the destruction of Choronzon. I think she is far more powerful but that’s just me. This is how it all appears from the outside though. To me Kali is mother, lover and all things that I love and desire in the Universe. For those who are unprepared and don’t know how to appease her though, she is the worst horror.

It’s a matter of perspective you see. As Withigo posted by Crowley the bit about the Three Schools of Magick in Magick Without Tears, each school has its own agenda. The Black School or Left Hand Path has a necessary job to perform. Some Thelemites will require that path to make themselves whole and fulfil their will. Even The Book Of The Law encouraged the Scarlet Woman to join The Black Brotherhood in my humble opinion; it was the only chance she had to get out from Crowley’s complete control you see. All that stuff about killing her heart and working the work of wickedness, a bit of a give away.

All three schools though eventually lead to the same place, they just take sometimes opposing routes that is all.

Love is the law, love under will.

Alex


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/08/2009 7:13 pm  

Thank you, Alex, for your reply, sincerely. (I knew that you were probably the go-to-guy.) Wow, that was a lot of bath water, as you put it, but I am holding my right keyboard hand down with my left to focus on this one idea, which catches my attention most of all from what you poured:

"Alex_Bennett" wrote:
The left hand path forgoes the crossing of the abyss until death, when in Left Hand Path Tantra; Sammadhi is reputed to be guaranteed.

Why does 'left hand path Thelema' forgo the crossing of the abyss until death? If I understand it correctly, the advent of the Aeon of Horus and Thelema superseded the older aeon prohibition of crossing the abyss prior to death, which represents a step forward in the evolution in mankind. In fact, the whole of Liber AL and Crowley's teachings could easily be summarized as a 'short cut' to a goal that was hitherto reserved for the hereafter. As I see it, this is progress, and progress is a positive indication. Therefore, any hindrance to progress or any symptom of regression from progress is a negative indication. Progress is progress, in other words. Onward and upward we go, not backwards and into a downward spiral towards the lingering errors of mankind's past misadventures along the inward journey.

Now, please pardon my being a bit slow, but I don't get it. Please elaborate, Alex?


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/08/2009 8:00 pm  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

The forgoing of crossing the abyss till death is actually a Hindu Tantric statement about the Left Hand Path and is well documented. Right Hand Path Tantrics are supposed to be all about acheiving enlightenment and then going straight for Nirvana and abandonding the Universe. The Left Hand Path though stop short so that others may find the way to enlightenment. To use Crowley's analogue the left hand path or Black School are the ones that irigate the desert that is Daath. The left hand path reach the threashold of disolution and Samadhi, then turn to help fellow man, rather than selfishly (if that is the word) pursue their own aims of liberation. You see good and evil are irelivant this far up the tree.

Love is the law, love under will.

Alex


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/08/2009 8:41 pm  
"Alex_Bennett" wrote:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

The forgoing of crossing the abyss till death is actually a Hindu Tantric statement about the Left Hand Path and is well documented. Right Hand Path Tantrics are supposed to be all about acheiving enlightenment and then going straight for Nirvana and abandonding the Universe. The Left Hand Path though stop short so that others may find the way to enlightenment. To use Crowley's analogue the left hand path or Black School are the ones that irigate the desert that is Daath. The left hand path reach the threashold of disolution and Samadhi, then turn to help fellow man, rather than selfishly (if that is the word) pursue their own aims of liberation. You see good and evil are irelivant this far up the tree.

Love is the law, love under will.

Alex

Thanks for that, Alex, again, but I feel that I am still missing something. (Call me a dummy!) Do you suppose that one who has 'crossed the abyss' is incapable of reissuing into the world to continue doing their Will, be it teaching or fishing or herding goats or whatever?

Also, would you consider yourself a Hindu, perhaps, rather than a Thelemite? I only ask this because of your own repeated references to that other paradigm - a different paradigm, with some similarities here and there - but different. Perhaps you are trying to link the one with the other, in which case we could discuss the blatant differences between the two? The other forum readership might like to participate, as well?


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/08/2009 10:10 pm  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

I'm certainly no Hindu! I find much of it repulsive, just look at the caste system, yuck! I use many paradigms to embelish Thelema just as did Crowley in his works. I like Jamaican Obeah too for instance. To limit Thelema to Ancient Egyptian is to me to miss the point. Thelema is an amalgamation of many paradigms; Judeo-Christian Kaballah, Alchemy, I Ching, Taoism, Tantra, Celtic, Viking, Tarot, Gnosticism, Freemasonry, Yoga, where does it end? Thelema takes the best from these and more, then discards the rubbish. I myself use the underlying philosophy of Liber AL as the filter.
Even Ancient Egyptian would have many secrets hidden from us at the moment due to lack of translation (still standing at 10% of what is held in the British Library alone). We are a new spiritual expression of our age and so I have no problem steeling from other paradigms to make a better and more complete system.
As Crowley left the Left Hand Path well alone, he being Right Hand Path in my humble opinion, I had to explore other realms. My loyalty is to Thelema absolutely and in particular Nuith. I just wanted to worship her as a Tantric would, completely with all the sexual joy that it entails. I wanted to explore my love for her and to be completely open about it. Aleister Crowley's one time student Laurence Miles, who later became Shri Mahendranath, aka Dadaji, head of the Adinath sect of Tantrics and my Grandfather Guru (my guru's guru), gave me the edge in deciphering these secrets. I have never abandoned Thelema though for second rate Hinduism and only did any of this as I felt our limited understanding of Ancient Egyptian rather, well, limited. I needed a ground level mythos, not a purely intellectual one.
In fact my Tantric path does not count itself as religious or Hindu even and though it may utilise the Hindu pantheon to explain its concepts in, it is in great variance with orthodox Hinduism. They have central to their practice a philosophy of Svecchachara which is Sanskrit for the path of doing one’s will.
I know Wiccans who accept Crowley and Liber Al as central their beliefs. They are not the only variance like this. This idea that only members of one particular order and those who only celebrate The Gnostic Mass, are the only true expression of Thelema, I find as repulsive as Hinduism frankly.

Love is the law, love under will.

Alex


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/08/2009 10:23 pm  

P.S. The Adinath Sect has officially accepted The Book Of The Law as an official Tantra and therefore the most recent Tantra to be written.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/08/2009 10:57 pm  

P.P.S. So that nobody gets the wrong idea, The Gnostic Mass is technically a Right Hand Path Tantric Ritual by all measures of what such a ritual would be. The only difference is the lack of Hindu or Buddhist gods but only non-Tantrics would get funny about that even


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/08/2009 11:03 pm  

P.P.P.S. Aleister Crowley got a Right Hand Path Tantric initiation when he was doing a crash intensive course in Yoga in India.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
23/08/2009 11:59 am  

Camilion:

Could someone please define the term 'left hand path Thelema,' as compared with, I suppose, 'right hand path Thelema,' please? (Assuming that this thread has something to do with Thelema, right?)

The Left Hand Path is the (plural since it is a metatradition) radical esoteric way of antinomianism on both a theoretical and practical level. However, if joe sixpack or the king of denmark decides that well now it is time for some LHP, then what will come out will probably be nothing, even though they will have no limits in their practice – since they don´t really know what to do. So at the same time as being unrestricted, there is still the need of progress and initiation. Initiation here is of course the gradual process of enlightenment and beyond. There is nothing in the RHP that the LHP could not work because of dogmatic reasons. The LHP uses both the right and the left hand so to say.

The Right Hand Path would be religious and esoteric traditions which have dogma and theoretical ideas that makes certain practices immoral or impossible, aswell as a lack of knowledge about these techniques.

Right Hand Path thelema could for instance be armchair thelema. Or any thelemic work that is unaware of the special techniques of the LHP.

withigo:

AC defines the left and right paths pretty thoroughly in 3 chapters of MWT:
http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/mwt/mwt_06.html
http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/mwt/mwt_07.html
http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/mwt/mwt_08.html

Before I'd set off gung-ho on a particular path, I'd think it a good idea to fully understand the points from AC's higher level of perspective.

Actually, as has already been voiced in this thread, Crowley was quite wrong in his continued interpretation of these eastern terms. Crowley might have called himself RHP, but he could very well have been a LHP adept. I am not very well read on Crowley though, having primarily studied Liber AL and Book of Lies.

Magnum:

So like I was saying about the dark arquetype, what does this exactly mean? When you look into the qlippothic "gods" or "demons" do they represent the "bad" aspects of ourselves, that have to be confronted in order to overcome them and ascend? Is this a correct or incorrect statment?, in laymans terms.

Do the angelic aspects refer to more superficial , easily accesible areas of the psyche and the darkness more dangerous or intolerant areas to access?

Also if it is true that the most imortant thing is balance between the 2 forces of light and darkness within, then why is the dark aspect given priority as far as exploration goes?

The antinomian initiation of the Left Hand Path breaks down the idea of good and bad, but the darkness will in one way always be darkness. The Qliphothic worlds are enormous vistas which is a wholly other thing than what we see around ourselves as Malkuth. The darkness is the unknown, often feared.

The work with the light side will be both active and automatic. Depending on system one works with one will either make alliances with spirits that teach oneself how to make sure that one can come back to ”normality” after venturing into the qliphotic worlds. This is a work with the lightside that goes on and on in many forms. Another is the work with light entities that are sovereign over certain practice that are connected to the light side, for instance could many catholic and orthodox christian techniques be of use here.

Alex_Bennett:

The term left hand path and right hand path come from Tantra. Blavatsky who studied Buddhist Tantra, which wiped out it's left hand path,

I don´t know what you mean really, but there is indeed a Left Hand Path Buddist Tantric tradition. Indeed it is quite impressive! The Esoteric Vajrayana.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
23/08/2009 1:07 pm  

RZK wrote:"The antinomian initiation of the Left Hand Path breaks down the idea of good and bad, but the darkness will in one way always be darkness. The Qliphothic worlds are enormous vistas which is a wholly other thing than what we see around ourselves as Malkuth. The darkness is the unknown, often feared.

The work with the light side will be both active and automatic. Depending on system one works with one will either make alliances with spirits that teach oneself how to make sure that one can come back to ”normality” after venturing into the qliphotic worlds. This is a work with the lightside that goes on and on in many forms. Another is the work with light entities that are sovereign over certain practice that are connected to the light side, for instance could many catholic and orthodox christian techniques be of use here".

It is said that the qlippoth, if approached properly, can be more beneficial and power oriented than the tree of life, and where you can also balance the demonic with the angelic, in contrast with the tree of life, where it puts you on a more one sided perception. In each qlippothic sphere there are archdemons or energies (deific masks/symbolized energies) encircled into a specific archetype (qlippha). Does that also apply to the tree of life

So the question is, when invoking or working with these "angels" or "demons", you are actually invoking light aspects and dark aspects of the SELF or PSYCHE and working accordingly to expanding consiousness?


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
23/08/2009 9:05 pm  

The initiate of the Left Hand Path who works with the Qliphoth have to work with it together with the Sephiroth. If one does not initiation cannot proceed because one does not know how some key phenomena works.
This will result in either making it impossible to get far enough into the Qliphoth or that one might crash completely and have a psychological disorder. Actually, I cannot really see anyone working with Samael (and everything beyond) not having to work with Hod to make further initiation possible.

I am for instance quite sceptical against the TOBL saying that they are only working with the Qliphoth. It seems quite odd to think this is possible. It must mean that they have an interpretation of the Qliphoth that includes these phenomena.

On the question of inner our outer, the answer is actually both. The work on the inner might be guided by forces from the outside or the inside, and when working with outer things one needs the central elements that stems from within.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
23/08/2009 9:23 pm  

There's a lot of talk about LHP v RHP and there probably always will be. This unnatural divide of so called 'paths' is simply dualistic obfusticating bollocks as far as I'm concerned. The geek side of magick.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
23/08/2009 9:37 pm  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

I think as a great reference to this whole discussion is William Blake's The Marriage of Heaven and Hell. A great influence on the Beast and his school of thought.

Love is the law love under will


ReplyQuote
alysa
(@alysa)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 655
23/08/2009 11:17 pm  

Thank you very much Aeternus220, for this great suggestion, I've never read it, but I'm inclined to do it, and yes indeed it should be more recognised that William Blake and his "Marriage of Heaven and Hell", had a great influence on Crowley, there should be once a book appearing about "Heaven and Hell" and William Blake's influence on Crowley.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
23/08/2009 11:33 pm  

alrah: would you say there is a difference between lets say scientology and esoteric vajrayana tibetan buddism? between original golden dawn and thelema as practiced within for instance the Typhonian Order?

The idea of LHP / RHP is of course just words, words that try to make a point in making a distinction. Since we are here using these words that in the western context not only tries to make a distinction between different tantras, but rather uses the concept as two meta-traditions. This does indeed have problems. There are a number of different ways to try to pin down what the difference might be, aswell as arguments on specific cases. The Crowleyan OTO is one such an example of debate.

That being said, some would argue that the concept holds no value - and if that is the case for these people, then they don´t have to use the word. Some would argue that Thelema as a concept does not hold value either, or magic.

Words and concepts are wordplays. The way I use the wordplay of LHP/RHP is mainly to point out specific points which are missing or thought of as immoral or wrong, in lack of a better wording in certain traditions, but which are not missing in others. By missing I here mean "simply is not there for whatever reason".
The LHP is the undogmatic work with everything (Right & Left aspects of everything). The RHP is restricted and does not contain certain practices the LHP uses (what is then termed the Left).
There is no such sense as one being "better" than the other one, or any such rubbish. If it works, it works. Bottomline.


ReplyQuote
Palamedes
(@palamedes)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 450
23/08/2009 11:41 pm  
"Alex_Bennett" wrote:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

I'm certainly no Hindu! I find much of it repulsive, just look at the caste system, yuck! I use many paradigms to embelish Thelema just as did Crowley in his works. I like Jamaican Obeah too for instance. To limit Thelema to Ancient Egyptian is to me to miss the point. Thelema is an amalgamation of many paradigms; Judeo-Christian Kaballah, Alchemy, I Ching, Taoism, Tantra, Celtic, Viking, Tarot, Gnosticism, Freemasonry, Yoga, where does it end? Thelema takes the best from these and more, then discards the rubbish. I myself use the underlying philosophy of Liber AL as the filter.
Even Ancient Egyptian would have many secrets hidden from us at the moment due to lack of translation (still standing at 10% of what is held in the British Library alone). We are a new spiritual expression of our age and so I have no problem steeling from other paradigms to make a better and more complete system.
As Crowley left the Left Hand Path well alone, he being Right Hand Path in my humble opinion, I had to explore other realms. My loyalty is to Thelema absolutely and in particular Nuith. I just wanted to worship her as a Tantric would, completely with all the sexual joy that it entails. I wanted to explore my love for her and to be completely open about it. Aleister Crowley's one time student Laurence Miles, who later became Shri Mahendranath, aka Dadaji, head of the Adinath sect of Tantrics and my Grandfather Guru (my guru's guru), gave me the edge in deciphering these secrets. I have never abandoned Thelema though for second rate Hinduism and only did any of this as I felt our limited understanding of Ancient Egyptian rather, well, limited. I needed a ground level mythos, not a purely intellectual one.
In fact my Tantric path does not count itself as religious or Hindu even and though it may utilise the Hindu pantheon to explain its concepts in, it is in great variance with orthodox Hinduism. They have central to their practice a philosophy of Svecchachara which is Sanskrit for the path of doing one’s will.
I know Wiccans who accept Crowley and Liber Al as central their beliefs. They are not the only variance like this. This idea that only members of one particular order and those who only celebrate The Gnostic Mass, are the only true expression of Thelema, I find as repulsive as Hinduism frankly.

Love is the law, love under will.

Alex

Alex, there are significant problems in your presentation. First of all, what Crowley meant with his Left Hand Path and with Tantrikas mean with their Left Hand Path are two different things that should not be conflated. The signifier is the same but the signifieds are not. Under analysis, it would appear that whatever his chosen conceptual vocabulary, Crowley in fact was engaged in practices that could be consider 'left hand' from the tantric point of view. The ingestion of sexual fluids is an obvious example. Going against the social norms, generally speaking, is another. Some aspects of Babalon devotionalism have left-hand features. And so on and so forth. In addition to this, you seem to find Hinduism 'repulsive' and you seem to abhor the caste system, forgetting (perhaps) that many major left-hand tantrikas have been supporters of that same system and that all their breaking of the taboos happened within the confines of the ritual, while outside of those same rituals they would maintain their social roles. Tantrism is intertwined with both Hinduism and Buddhism to such a degree that it cannot be separated. I also find questionable the inclusion of the Nath panth among the left-hand tantrikas, especially since the major propagator of their system, Gorakhnath, was a staunch celibate renouncer who chastised his own guru Matsyendranath for losing his way of yoga through marriage. Of course, we are talking here of a large tradition that has been around in organized form for almost a millennium - if not longer - so it makes sense that there are varieties and exceptions. But fundamentally, and as already mentioned, what Crowley meant with Left Hand and what tantrikas mean by Left Hand are two different animals so it makes no sense to accuse Crowley of misunderstanding one from the perspective of other.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
25/08/2009 10:30 am  

The suggestion that the term left hand path came through Blavatsky sounds a bit wrong headed to me. In europe the term is surely tied in with the use of the word sinister and we were hanging sinister types long before Blavatskys time. 💡


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
25/08/2009 11:16 am  

It is general concensus from a perspective of history of ideas that it is Blavatsky who is the one that brought the concept and made it popular - and that Crowley got it from her in one way or another. Just compare her definitions and his.

We do however interestingly find that also in the western world (and middle eastern) the idea of the left as sinister is very widespread. But here we are talking about the three word combination "Left Hand Path".


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
25/08/2009 2:16 pm  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

There are loads of misconceptions going on here. First Blavatsky did not come up with the term Left Hand Path, which is from antiquity; she came up with the term ‘Black Brothers of the Left Hand Path’. I accept I am one of them at the very least in order to exclude myself in any way being associated with the most famous armchair occultist of all time.

Aleister Crowley may have wandered into Left Hand Path territory if he were a Hindu but he wasn’t and neither am I. The whole of spirituality had by his time become so Right Hand Path that even he saw this imbalance as unsustainable. What he left us though is essentially highly intellectual doctrine, Thelemic morality, rituals that are mainly if not entirely motivated by spiritual development, essentially all that the average person coming into Thelema fresh would associate with the religious and mysticism side of Thelema and therefore its Right Hand Path. Crowley generally only brushed over the Left Hand Path issues. Where are his extensive teachings on Obeah, Wanga, Mantra and Spells? These all get only a mention when they are bread and butter to the Left Hand Path.

The Book Of The Law says that Ra Hoor Khuith's left hand is empty as he has destroyed an Universe. I think this describes the situation very well, the Left Hand Path has had to start from scratch and we are only just beginning.

Tantra is not bound to any religion. In fact it could be quite easily transplanted into Thelema and there are movements underway to do this but it cannot be done without taking all opposing ideas into context. It is all about balance is correct. Tantra is essentially about the dissolution of duality, something close to Nuit’s heart from what I understand.

The Left Hand Path Tantrics were very anti the caste system and in fact the schools of Matsyendranath and even the straight-laced Goraknath (boring by comparison unless you’re Right Hand Path of course) undermined it. It was the British who brought it back as it tied in with the class system in their eyes. Gandhi was a Hindu British wanabe really and though the Tantrics help get rid of the British, once home rule was established he had all the Tantrics locked up, especially the Left Hand Path. In India today ‘Tantric’ means thanks to the BJP, the same as Satanic Child Sacrificer to Bible belt America, though it is more correctly translated as Occultist but not semantically of course. Dadaji’s gurus gave the whole of their tradition to an Englishmen as they thought that Tantra’s days were numbered in India. Today very little is left and what is has been watered down to something to sell money-making guru books to westerners.

Love is the law, love under will.

Alex


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
25/08/2009 2:17 pm  

Magnum,

I would recommend a perusal of Tantra first, it will give you a better idea of how the idea of the "LHP" came into creation as abstract thought.

The 'dark' aspect of what is considered left-handed, is often misunderstood. What is darkness but an absence of light? When people jump into LHP thought, they immediately seek out things that are 'black'. The dark archetype explores the more carnal side, animalistic and man's true nature vs. what he's been conditioned to be. Human as 'darkness' absent of societal influence - being more true to it's instinctual nature, vs. what the 'light' of society expects you to be.


ReplyQuote
mika
 mika
(@mika)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 360
25/08/2009 6:47 pm  
"Magnum" wrote:
Now, referring to the external approach you mentioned, how would this differ from the montheistic literal belief. Cause as far as I know, the only god there is is YOU, therefore these "dark gods" etc.. are only symbols to represent inner aspects, and not like a montheist would beleive in an outer "God" etc..

Yes, they are "only symbols". But symbols can be useful. As I said in my email to you, externalizing various internal "forces", whether God or Deamon or animal spirit or whatever, can be a very useful method for learning about different aspects of the self. When you externalize something, you can name it, recognize it when it pops up, even converse with it. The difference between this and, say, monotheism (or any theism), is that you know you're just playing a mental game and you don't actually believe that the Angel you're talking to is some actual external entity that exists independently from your self.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
25/08/2009 9:38 pm  

"There are loads of misconceptions going on here. First Blavatsky did not come up with the term Left Hand Path, which is from antiquity"

As already stated: what she did was to interpret the term, brought from the eastern traditions, in a completely different way than the original. I would call her idea of the Left Hand Path a complete misconception. This misconception was continued by Crowley.

Alex_Bennett wrote:

"The whole of spirituality had by his [Crowleys] time become so Right Hand Path"

Do you have many good examples of what in retrospect could be called Left Hand Path practice before say the 18th century?


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
26/08/2009 11:48 am  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

"rzk" wrote:
Do you have many good examples of what in retrospect could be called Left Hand Path practice before say the 18th century?

The most glaringly obvious one is Traditional Witchcraft of course. A tradition which happily takes from any tradition it meets and which it's great right is that act of sex in front of the rest of the coven. George Pickingill was probably the last of the great magisters in this tradition so we have some idea what went on. Modern Paganism has had too much morality poured over it but essentially it is a step in the right direction.

Before the witchcraft trials religion was a lot more tollerant. Alchemy was the Left Hand Path for the elite and that got sidelined more and more from about those times onward. There were backlashes like the Hellfire Club, the Northern French Satanists of the early 1900s and Francis Barrett's Cambridge Coven but as communication became easier so did the establishment clamp down. In the end and all that was left was respectable Theosophy and the very much Right Hand Path Golden Dawn. Crowley left compared to them perhaps but so is the Universe. At least he knew what was true Right Hand Path and what was bigoted anally retentive rubbish.

Love is the law, love under will.

Alex


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
26/08/2009 1:02 pm  

I'm not sure you're on safe ground there Alex.

In the tradition of the cunning folk, they worked to heal sick people and animals, find lost items, locate stolen property, identify theives, protect people from curses etc. as part of their community, so I can't see how you can pigeon hole a trad. that serves others as LHP.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
26/08/2009 2:02 pm  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

"alrah" wrote:
I'm not sure you're on safe ground there Alex.

In the tradition of the cunning folk, they worked to heal sick people and animals, find lost items, locate stolen property, identify theives, protect people from curses etc. as part of their community, so I can't see how you can pigeon hole a trad. that serves others as LHP.

The Left Hand Path serves other people. In fact they are the less selfish path of the two. The Right Hand Path is the selfish one albeit that they are supposed to be limited to mysticism and religious only magick. Real everyday even what is called Results Magick (like healing) is Left Hand Path. Absolute Right Hand Path would say if they dye so be it, lets do some spiritual meditation to improve their chances spiritually and leave the healing of their body to providence.

If you read what I have posted above you will see that the actual Tantric formulae for the Left Hand Path is that they are concerned with day to day reality and the welfare of humanity. They forego the fast track to enlightenment and once they are ready to transcend, stop turn away and face the material in order to improve it.

I'm not sure what keeps people having these misconceptions. Its like association Nazism with the Left Hand Path, a ridiculous idea when the only people to associate themselves with them were Right Hand Path organisations and people like J F C Fuller and the like. Perhaps people have 'learned' to be too trustful of such people.

Love is the law, love under will.


ReplyQuote
kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1850
26/08/2009 2:27 pm  

They forego the fast track to enlightenment and once they are ready to transcend, stop turn away and face the material in order to improve it.

So, in other words, LHP = Bodhisattva???


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
26/08/2009 2:31 pm  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

To quote Crowley, All Magick that is not directed straight up and concenered only with spiritual advancement, tends to become Black Magick. This includes Healing, Divination and of course the most dangerous form of Black Magick of all, Love Magick. Actual cursing is for beginners unless you mean the type that works against someone chasing you with a gun.

True I do some Right Hand Path Magick as will a Right Hand Path practitioner do some Left and the grey area is the majority of the work for all. A better way to put it is the Left Hand Path is magick for magick's sake, whereas the Right is more concerned with what motivates and the magickal intent.

Love is the law, love under will.

Alex


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
26/08/2009 2:48 pm  
""Alex_Bennett" wrote:
If you read what I have posted above you will see that the actual Tantric formulae for the Left Hand Path is that they are concerned with day to day reality and the welfare of humanity. They forego the fast track to enlightenment and once they are ready to transcend, stop turn away and face the material in order to improve it.

Why do you think that concerning yourself with day to day reality and the welfare of humanity is incompatible with sudden and/or gradual enlightenment schools Alex?


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
26/08/2009 3:38 pm  

Enlightenment in the pure Right Hand Path sense is transcendence and therefore not that concerned with the material world. It is not incompatible with healing just it sees beyond it and doesn't care either way. The Book of the Law quite correctly identifies mercy with evil. You see if you are 'good' to someone you are 'bad' to their enemies and that whole taking side thing is not really transcendence.

The Left Hand Path attempts to integrate the material with the spiritual however. The transcendence is through the material rather than by disassociation. Again nothing to do with Black meaning 'evil' and White meaning 'good', that is a massive over simplfication.

I'm beginning to think that expalining this is getting nowhere. I will try to surmise though.

White School Of Magick = Right Hand Path = Mysticism, Intellectualism, Theory, Exorcism (Khonsu is Egyptian god of exorcism), Religious Magick, Bakti or devotional magick (unquestioning) and religious ritual. The God over the Goddess. Scripture. Priestcraft. The establishment. Hierarchical Grade structures and organisations. Symbolism. The spirituality of sex aluded to and vailed. Rituals not done naked. Horus.

Black School of Magick = Left Hand Path = Magick for magick's sake, Scepticism (especially anti-Bakti) in that gods have to give results to get worship and all is questionable, Religion merely a tool. Practical Magick in the sense of healing, cursing, finding jobs, partners etc. even to the point of doing this for others for financial reward, like blessing farmers crops for a beer tab at the pub (George Pickingill) and cursing them if beer is not forthcoming. Nakedness often insisted upon in ritual. The Goddess over the God. The public sexual act often being the highest key ritual of a tradition. No real grades except perhaps initiate and then teacher, emphasis more on individual developement. Set, Kephra (the black sun).

Yellow or Middle School = Middle Path = Divination and a balance of the two other schools.

I really bored of this now.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
26/08/2009 3:55 pm  

If thy hand offend thee cut it off...

😆


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
26/08/2009 4:00 pm  

The Buddha was all for enlightenment, and yet taught that hungry people should first be fed before you talked to them about enlightenment. Very practical/material approach...

Seems like you're trying to define LHP/RHP according to the two truths, but these always sit side by side, complementary to each other. Both are necessary. It seems a mistake to only work with one side.


ReplyQuote
Page 1 / 2
Share: