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The Inauguration of Aleister Crowley’s New Aeon of Horus

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wellreadwellbred
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Shiva: "Hold on a moment, please! Your train of commentary starts with not being able to measure self-identified Thelemites. Then it arrives at a failure to be measured like other systems. This implies that "other" belief systems can be measured (by counting their number of self-identified believers), which is ridiculous. [...] The idea is to do the work. The work is defined in the Class D pubs. The work is doing practices, wherein one gets their own perception of the workings of the mind. One is reminded that Therion said, "Don't believe me."

Thelema is a belief system if one believes everything Crowley wrote. It is not a belief system if one simply does the work and gets their own results ... whic his what the system was marketed as in the first place."

Michael Staley: "I've been interested in Crowley and Thelema since the late 1960s, and certainly don't feel that I have "scoured an ever-deepening rut going nowhere". If you feel that way (and you quote this sentiment of Carrot_Childe with apparent approval) then perhaps you're better off not wasting your time on this website. If you think that the worth of something is to be assessed by the number of self-identified adherents ...".

 

Michael Staley, where does participation on this site require adherence to a certain position with respect to Aleister Crowley's version of Thelema? If you feel that way, then perhaps you're better off on http://www.heruraha.net ?

And Shiva and Michael Staley, the Pew Research Center, a neutral research organization, does not intend to be ridiculous, and does not intend to measure "the worth of" any belief systems, when measuring them by counting their numbers of self-identified adherents. 

Also, Shiva, the Pew Research Center does "... ask about beliefs and practices, but those are separate questions." (and as already pointed out by ignant666, there are no data sources for high quality data with respect to the number of self identified Thelemites):

 

"Pew Research Center Religion & Public Life

JULY 5, 2018 How Does Pew Research Center Measure the Religious Composition of the U.S.? Answers to Frequently Asked Questions We regularly are asked about how we measure religion. Here are answers to some of the questions we get most often. [...]

Question 1: Measuring religious identity

How does Pew Research Center measure the religious identity of survey respondents and the religious composition of the U.S.?

Answer: Generally, we rely on respondents’ self-identification.  A key question we ask in many surveys is: “What is your present religion, if any? Are you Protestant, Roman Catholic, Mormon, Orthodox such as Greek or Russian Orthodox, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, atheist, agnostic, something else, or nothing in particular?” [...] We sometimes use a more expansive definition, which includes not just people who identify religiously with a group, but also those who self-identify culturally or ethnically. For example, the Center’s 2013 survey of U.S. Jews included both respondents who described themselves as Jewish when asked about their religion as well as those who described themselves (religiously) as “atheist,” “agnostic,” or “nothing in particular” if they also currently considered themselves Jewish or partially Jewish “aside from religion,” and they were raised Jewish or had a Jewish parent. Similarly, our 2015 survey of U.S. Catholics and Family Life included analysis of “cultural Catholics” in addition to those who identified as Catholic by religion. Instances of this kind of more expansive approach to defining groups are rare, however, and are clearly noted in our reports.

 

Question 2: Religious identity vs. religious belief

But what about Catholics who don’t attend church? Can someone really be Catholic if they don’t attend Mass regularly? Similarly, what about Mormons who don’t believe in God? Can someone who doesn’t believe in God be Mormon?

Answer: In our surveys, members of religious groups are categorized based on their self-identification with the group, not on the basis of their religious beliefs or practices. We do ask about beliefs and practices, but those are separate questions. This allows us to see, for example, that among self-described Catholics, roughly four-in-ten say they attend religious services at least once a week, while a similar share say they attend Mass once or twice a month or a few times a year, and one-in-five say they seldom or never attend Mass. All are categorized as Catholics in the Center’s reports, though in many of our larger surveys, we are able to break down the Catholic category into subgroups and compare Catholics who say they go to Mass weekly with those who attend less often.

Defining religious categories on the basis of self-identification has a number of benefits, chief among them that this kind of approach makes it possible to describe the diversity of belief and practice that exists within every religious tradition in the U.S. Some religious traditions are composed of people who overwhelmingly profess to believe in the unique teachings of their faith. For example, the Center’s 2011 survey of U.S. Mormons found that 94% of self-described Mormons believe that the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a prophet of God, and 91% believe that the Book of Mormon was written by ancient prophets and translated by Joseph Smith. The same survey found that 82% of Mormons say religion is very important in their lives, and 77% say they attend religious services on at least a weekly basis.

Other religious groups exhibit lower levels of uniformity. For example, Americans who identify as Jewish when asked about their religion are roughly evenly divided between those who say religion is very important in their lives (31%), those who say it is somewhat important in their lives (35%), and those who say religion is “not too” or “not at all” important in their lives (33%).

Pew Research Center surveys even find that a few self-described atheists say they believe in God or a universal spirit. There are a number of possible explanations for this paradox. Some respondents may identify as atheists because they reject traditional images of God, even though they believe there is some spiritual force in the universe. Others may identify as atheist primarily as a means of registering an objection to organized religion. And a few self-described atheists are unclear on what, exactly, the word “atheist” means. Whatever the explanation, the larger point is that no religious group in the U.S. is a monolith. There is diversity of belief and practice within every religious tradition, and defining religious traditions on the basis of self-identification makes it possible to illustrate the multiplicity of belief and practice inside each group.

In short, we do not seek to make any judgments about what characteristics may or may not disqualify someone from a particular group. This can often be a matter of opinion; for example, most U.S. Jews say a person cannot be Jewish if he or she believes Jesus was the messiah, but a substantial minority disagree. As a neutral research organization, Pew Research Center does not take positions on these sorts of debates."

(Source: How Does Pew Research Center Measure the Religious Composition of the U.S.? Answers to Frequently Asked Questions - - - https://www.pewforum.org/2018/07/05/how-does-pew-research-center-measure-the-religious-composition-of-the-u-s-answers-to-frequently-asked-questions/    )


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Shiva
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Aleister Crowley later founded a religion named Thelema

Yes, and before that the Word Thelema was known, but nobody had founded a religion based on it, so it stands unique in the "AC version."

This "other" stuff you have dug up are merely different people's opinions. Everyone's understandings are going to differ a bit. But I don't see anybody proclaiming a "New Thelema," or a "Thelema Revised."

You seem to be obsessed with alternative views and radical perverts. Please return to your regularly-scheduled medication regime, and stop playing in the gutter. There a germs and cooties there.

P.S.  Thank you for your reality-synchronized posts that you post from time to time.

Posted by: @ignant666

since you detest AC so much, you seem to spend so much time thinking about, and posting about, him and his work

He is one of two members appointed to constantly criticize the acts of The Supreme and Most Holy King, whether they approve of said acts or not. But they alone cannot be selected for that Holy Throne. I suppose that makes them feel left out.

 


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Pertinax
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Posted by: @christibrany
Posted by: @shiva

he universe of dogs, for example

I don't like dogs really.

 

Unless they are biggish.  Like Shepherds. 

 

I ate dog in Japan. It was tasty.

 

I cant stand little yappy dogs. 

My sister has two little schnoodles. 

They yap so loud. I want to kick them. But then when they sit in your lap you like them

Its quite a chore to love little dogs. 

 

They shall be food for the wicked at some point. 

 

 

They don’t eat dogs in Japan. You’re thinking of Korea.


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred
his version of Thelema

You repeatedly use the phrase, "his version." I didn't know there were "other" versions. [...]

Which "other" versions am I missing?

As in, his "interpretation" of Thelema is how I interpreted it: there being as many versions of Thelema as there are Thelemites to interpret it.  And even more, if they happen to have more than one opinion about it.

Your version/"interpretation" of it, mine, everybuddys...  

Posted by: @shiva

One is reminded that Therion said, "Don't believe me."

When what he really meant to say, was "only believe me if you really want to" ...

Suggestively yours,

Z Joy


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christibrany
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@pertinax

 

 My dear human,

 

I worked in Korea too but I ate dog in Japan. Its illegal there. It was at my Chinese friend's uncle's restaurant, Mafia type.

That's all.

 


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dom
 dom
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

 

An apparent lack of source data for measuring the number of self identified Thelemites, even over a century after he supposedly became the prophet of his version of Thelema, is an indication of the failure of this Thelema claimed within its most sacred text to be superseding all earlier rituals, to become a measurable movement comparable to other movements derived from belief systems based on a sacred book.

 

 

Is the overthrow of the Old Aeon about how many  "self-identified Thelemites" there are?

 

O, right.

 

What?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Thelema is a belief system if one believes everything Crowley wrote. It is not a belief system if one simply does the work and gets their own results ...

What utter nonsense. Thelema is not a "belief system". A Thelemite is defined in The Book of the Law as someone who accepts the Law of Thelema. Adherence to a belief system might be a prerequisite in your opinion, but you are wrong.

"It is not a belief system if one simply does the work and gets their own results ..." Of course it's not, because if one does the work and gets "their own results" then it is no longer a question of belief, but of experience. Your grasp of logic is laughable.

You make it sound as if "simply" doing work and getting results is somehow of less worth than following a "belief system". God preserve us from pseudo-intellectuals.

 

 


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djedi
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

For over a hundred years, enthusiastic devotees have rigidly trawled round and round and round the Libers (and accompanying dogma), and have collectively scoured an ever-deepening rut going absolutely nowhere.

But so many (usually oriental) mystical systems say they can take me to nowhere, which is to say somewhere other than where I am; so if this rut gets me nowhere I'd at least be getting somewhere. Mystically, that is.

Posted by: @pertinax

They don’t eat dogs in Japan.

They eat raccoon dog. Checkmate.

@wellreadwellbred

Are you feeling well? Just what has brought this on? Are you living in a 1990 Jacob's Ladder, Silent Hill purgatory world? We've all been there, you don't have to feel ashamed or embarrassed. And we're all here if you want to talk about it. We won't hold this lashing out against you.


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @michaelstaley
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Thelema is a belief system if one believes everything Crowley wrote. It is not a belief system if one simply does the work and gets their own results ...

What utter nonsense. Thelema is not a "belief system" [...]

This nonsensical quote was by/from that well-known "pseudo-intellectual" Shiva though, not wellreadwellbred...

Posted by: @shiva

He [wrwb] is one of two members appointed to constantly criticize the acts of The Supreme and Most Holy King, whether they approve of said acts or not.

On whose authority has he been appointed?  And who then would be "the other one"?

Non-omnisciently yours

Z Joy


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Pertinax
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Posted by: @christibrany

@pertinax

 

 My dear human,

Don't make assumptions....

 

I worked in Korea too but I ate dog in Japan. Its illegal there. It was at my Chinese friend's uncle's restaurant, Mafia type.

That's all.

 

It would have been pretty illegal yes. I'm told it tastes like wet dog, but I'd probably refrain from trying it myself, I've had emotional attachments to dogs. 


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wellreadwellbred
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Michael Staley: "You make it sound as if "simply" doing work and getting results is somehow of less worth than following a "belief system". God preserve us from pseudo-intellectuals."

Fine, Michael Staley, you can take comfort in that there can be value in doing work based on this Thelema, irrespective of me pointing out that AC's self-proclaimed stauts around 1904 as prophet of his Thelema, now over a century later still has pathetically failed to result in an impact detectable by standard methods for measuring religious identity or religious belief.

Thanks to JJB, for pointing out my point for me, with respect to my use of the words "his [Aleister Crowley's]" version of Thelema."

Shiva: "Yes, and before that the Word Thelema was known, but nobody had founded a religion based on it, so it stands unique in the "AC version."

This "other" stuff you have dug up are merely different people's opinions. Everyone's understandings are going to differ a bit. But I don't see anybody proclaiming a "New Thelema," or a "Thelema Revised.""

The only example that comes to my mind is this one mentioned earlier on this site: 

"They have a almost rabid hatred of Crowley that I find a bit odd as they also uses so many Thelemic terms, like well Thelema, and the Law of Thelema. But they change it, I have seen two versions "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law, Love is the Law; but Conscious Love" and "Do what thy GOD wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the law, love under the will of GOD".

The fellow I have been talking to always references this website  http://www.gnosticteachings.org  so that might be a good place to start finding out more about them."

(Source: Samael Aun Weor  - - -  https://www.lashtal.com/forums/postid/15546/  ) 

 

By the way, I don't know if Samael Aun Weor's gnostic teachings have resulted in an impact detectable by standard methods for measuring religious identity or religious belief. 😉 

 

dom: "Is the overthrow of the Old Aeon about how many  "self-identified Thelemites" there are?

 

O, right.

 

What?"

 

What do you think dom, can there be value in doing work based on AC's Thelema, without believing in "the overthrow of the Old Aeon"-dogma?


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dom
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

 

 

What do you think dom, can there be value in doing work based on AC's Thelema, without believing in "the overthrow of the Old Aeon"-dogma?

Dogma?  You mean observational analysis of the comparative radical differences of the events of the 20th/21st centuries?   There are masses of "Thelemites" everywhere, here's a clue, you won't find them e.g.  knocking on your door asking you to discuss Joseph Smith.   

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Fine, Michael Staley, you can take comfort in that there can be value in doing work based on this Thelema, irrespective of me pointing out that AC's self-proclaimed stauts around 1904 as prophet of his Thelema, now over a century later still has pathetically failed to result in an impact detectable by standard methods for measuring religious identity or religious belief

I'm not interested in Crowley's status as "prophet", nor the "belief system", nor your pseudo-intellectual posturings as to what constitutes a "self-identifying" Thelemite. I'm interested in reaching my own understanding through magical and mystical work.


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christibrany
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@pertinax

 

I eat everything.

I like tasting.

I have no emotional attachments. 

 

 


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @christibrany

I worked in Korea too but I ate dog in Japan. Its illegal there. It was at my Chinese friend's uncle's restaurant, Mafia type..

I wonder, did the joint do horses's heads on the menu as well?

(And I'm sure they would have done them very tastefully if so....)

Cringefully yours,

N Joy


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Shiva
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Posted by: @christibrany

It was at my Chinese friend's uncle's restaurant,

I just knew those heathen, dog-eating Chinese mafia types would be behind such a dastardly act as dog consumption.

Posted by: @dom

Is the overthrow of the Old Aeon about how many  "self-identified Thelemites" there are?

Well, yes, in a way. The problem is, we don't know how many are required to successfully overthrow an Aeon. So the counting number doesn't matter. What matters is that a person needs to have their seatbelt fastened when the Scales of Maat reach the balance point ... and then go down the other side.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

This nonsensical quote was by/from that well-known "pseudo-intellectual" Shiva though, not wellreadwellbred...

Yes, I noticed the name switching. I just read what I wrote, even if misquoted by WellBred ...

Posted by: @shiva-the first time

Thelema is a belief system if one believes everything Crowley wrote. It is not a belief system if one simply does the work and gets their own results ...

I will still stand by that Statement. Anything is to anybody is what they believe it is, which is to say how they "interpret it." There are many poster who have come this way who were believers, not knowers, yet they professed to be Thelemites. There are others who believe in Aiwass.

Of course Thelema was not designed as a belief system. Yet Crowley believed in Aiwass.

Every mental construct is based on a belief system. We believe certain things are true, which they are, on their own plane of manifestation.

Anyway, I was just citing how Thelema could be a belief system, if someone thought there really is an A.'.A.'. up there, or an angel too. But then I sarcastically set these beggars aside and asserted that doing the work would lead to gnosis, not belief.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

AC's self-proclaimed stauts around 1904 as prophet of his Thelema, now over a century later still has pathetically failed to result in an impact detectable by standard methods for measuring religious identity or religious belief.

Um, it took Christianity about 400 years to get consolidated, and even then not really strong yet in its spell.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

"They have a almost rabid hatred of Crowley that I find a bit odd as they also uses so many Thelemic terms, like well Thelema, and the Law of Thelema. But they change it, I have seen two versions "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law, Love is the Law; but Conscious Love" and "Do what thy GOD wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the law, love under the will of GOD".

Bud these are mutations. I see changes mentioned. I predict they will be filed under "Qliphoth" before The End of the World. Maybe sooner.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

What do you think dom, can there be value in doing work based on AC's Thelema, without believing in "the overthrow of the Old Aeon"-dogma?

You asked Dom, but I'll butt in and say ... "Of course."

Posted by: @michael-staley

your pseudo-intellectual posturings as to what constitutes a "self-identifying" Thelemite.

It does get murkier than beyond the mauve zone, doesn't it?

 

 


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @shiva

It does get murkier than beyond the mauve zone, doesn't it?

Yes. I should never have left.


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wellreadwellbred
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

AC's self-proclaimed stauts around 1904 as prophet of his Thelema, now over a century later still has pathetically failed to result in an impact detectable by standard methods for measuring religious identity or religious belief.

Shiva: "Um, it took Christianity about 400 years to get consolidated, and even then not really strong yet in its spell."

With respect to the title of this thread, "The Inauguration of Aleister Crowley’s New Aeon of Horus", what can be expected to positively benefit a consolidation of the Thelema associated with Aleister Crowley?

A consolidation of the OTO and the A.'. A.'., in particular?, or a larger number of individuals doing work based on AC's Thelema in general?, or a harmonious combination of  both consolidation of the OTO and the A.'. A.'., in particular, together with a larger number of individuals doing work based on AC's Thelema in general?


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Shiva
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

what can be expected

I really don't know. I try to avoid reasoning from the known to the unknown, which surely is a great temptation, but usually not very accurate.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

A consolidation of the OTO and the A.'. A.'., in particular?

Are you trying to scare me? We fused those two, and it worked just fine. Then the OTO III* caught up with us. Better to stick to A.'.A.'. stuff - it's less invasive.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

or a larger number of individuals doing work based on AC's Thelema in general?

That would be progressive ... as long as all those people don't rush in to become jump-claimers.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

a harmonious combination of  both consolidation of the OTO and the A.'. A.'., in particular, together with a larger number of individuals

How about each individual doing their own work, alone, maybe with a mentor, maybe not?

Let's examine the potential consolidees. Forget duplexity. The A.'.A.'. is composed of individuals, chain-linked together in lines or lineages. Each line is anchored above by one individual who is like an independent service provider to the internet. It doesn'r care about "how many" are lined up. It is not concerned with mundane affairs. It does not exist, except in the minds of those who pursue  its levels.

I really hate to be the one who has to go around telling people the truth, but the truth is that OTO, as set forth by Reuss, Crowley, and Company, died with the termination of Caliph McM. After that, the same 3 letters were still embroidered on the flag, but they changed the gameplan and the rules, so I guess you could consider it a ghost, a shade, a specter, a shadow.

Thelema is about discovering one's Will, not about how many people do it, and certainly not about counting heads and building some edificial presence in the world of men.

 


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azrael2393
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Posted by: @shiva

I really hate to be the one who has to go around telling people the truth, but the truth is that OTO, as set forth by Reuss, Crowley, and Company, died with the termination of Caliph McM. After that, the same 3 letters were still embroidered on the flag, but they changed the gameplan and the rules, so I guess you could consider it a ghost, a shade, a specter, a shadow.

Thelema is about discovering one's Will, not about how many people do it, and certainly not about counting heads and building some edificial presence in the world of men.

 

Truth in Song.


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

his [Crowley's] Thelema, now over a century later still has pathetically failed to result in an impact detectable by standard methods for measuring religious identity or religious belief.

Thelemites are defined in The Book of the Law as those who accept the Law of Thelema.

Crowley wrote, in Magick in Theory and Practice:

"'Do what thou wilt...' is to bid Stars to shine, Vines to bear grapes, Water to seek its level; man is the only being in Nature that has striven to set himself at odds with himself."

This is the most succinct definition of Thelema that I have come across. And it's what I understand by Thelema. So carry on, by all means, with your fatuous insistence that Thelema is simply a religious movement, the success or failure of which is to be measured by the number of "self-declared" adherents. Never mind the quality; feel the width.

It's as if one were to define and assess Buddhism in terms of "self-declared" adherents, and totally ignore the work which needs to be done in order for the term "Buddhist" to have any meaning.

Never mind the quality; feel the width.


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christibrany
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Posted by: @michael-staley

"'Do what thou wilt...' is to bid Stars to shine, Vines to bear grapes, Water to seek its level; man is the only being in Nature that has striven to set himself at odds with himself."

This is the most succinct definition of Thelema that I have come across

And that's what I love about it (Thelema).  It is extremely Daoist at its core.

 

It realises that the best way to be, is to be.

 

Unfortunately, this doesn't include just being ourselves.  

It includes finding the self which is the one one was meant to be, and is hidden by the dirt of amalgamated and accreted mental grit and experience.  

One could even replace experience with accidents.  

Just like in a Zen-do, we must polish the mirror of mind until it shines with its own innate brilliance.

Not torn apart by inner Monkeys journeying across our inner China, nor split asunder by the babble of our own Choronzon, but finding the true pure LVX inside of it all. 

 

Well said Michael. 

 

Well, and Crowley. 

 

Well Bread. 


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wellreadwellbred
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((((( "Posted by: @wellreadwellbred: "AC's 1907 dated unpublished galley proofs for his collected works (volume 3 [?]), indicates that the former's first dictation from Aiwass, occured in Mexico 1900 with the scribing of the so called The Cry of the 30th Aethyr. "

Michael staley: "The attribution to Aiwass of the Cry of the 30th Aethyr isn't something I've come across before. Where did you read this attribution?"

[wellreadwellbred:] "Within AC's 1907 dated unpublished galley proofs, on the page numbered 234 (numbered so in top left corner)." 

Michael S.: "Yes, it is interesting that Crowley placed the Cry of the 30th Aethyr as a prefix to The Book of the Law.  ..."

wellreadwellbred:] "Yes, and in addition to that placement on the first page of the mentioned galley proofs, AC provides this attribution:

"This document (a fragment–2 " Airs " out of 30) is interesting as being written by the same hand as Liber L.  One may assume the constants as the contribution of the author ; the differences as due to inspiration alone." 

( This is also discussed by me from page two in the thread I titled 'Was the HGA also the actual initiator in the Order in which AC started on his path as an initiate?' (Source: https://www.lashtal.com/forums/postid/105558/  ) )"

Michael Staley: "That's very interesting, wellreadwellbred. I'll dig out my copy of The Vision and the Voice and study the Cry of the 30th Aethyr again in that light. When first studying the V & the V, decades ago now, I thought it very sketchy and tentative when compared with the series scryed many years later, in the Algerian Desert. It will be interesting to approach it afresh."

wellreadwellbred: "You're welcome, Michael S.!" [Source for preceding quotes: "A feast for the three days of the writing of the Book of the Law. [page 1]" - - - https://www.lashtal.com/forums/thelema/a-feast-for-the-three-days-of-the-writing-of-the-book-of-the-law/ ] )))))

 

Michael Staley: "... carry on, by all means, with your fatuous insistence that Thelema is simply a religious movement, the success or failure of which is to be measured by the number of "self-declared" adherents. Never mind the quality; feel the Width."

Aiwass apparently states that this Thelema encompasses "mere" adherents also, as akin to "simply" a religious movement: 

"The Cry of the 13th Aethyr, Which is Called ZIM [...] And he says to me, quite disconnectedly: The man of earth is the adherent. The lover giveth his life unto the work among men. The hermit goeth solitary, and giveth only of his light unto men[18]. [...] The River-bed near Bou-Sada.December 4, 1909. 2:10-3:45 p.m. [...] 18. See Al [= The Book of the Law] I, 40. These are the three true grades of the Great Order." (Source: The Vision and the Voice, The Cry of the 13th Aethyr, Which is Called ZIM.)

 

"I.40. Who calls us Thelemites will do no wrong, if he look but close into the word. For there are therein Three Grades, the Hermit, and the Lover, and the man of Earth. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

The New Comment

It is explained in Liber 418 that: “The man of earth is the adherent. The lover giveth his life unto the work among men. The hermit goeth solitary, and giveth only of his light unto men.”

Thus we have in the Order, the Mystic, the Magician, and the Devotee. These correspond closely to the Nuit – Hadit – Ra-Hoor-Khuit Triad. [...]

(The man of Earth, the Lover and the Hermit are the three types of Thelemites, The man of Earth is “the adherent‟; the Lover „gives his life unto the Work among men‟; the Hermit „goes solitary, and gives only of his light unto men‟. (See Liber 418.)

The enumeration of the Three Grades, followed by the injunction Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law, means that no discrimination of “superiority‟ or „inferiority‟ is to be made between the Three Grades. It is a matter of the Will, and nothing else, that decides to which Grade a Thelemite is to belong. In a sense, the man of Earth‟ is the adherent‟, that is, he is loyal to Thelema, adheres to it. In another sense, he adheres to the material world. He is the husbandman, the house-holder, the man attached to temporal things. To despise such a man is stupid. Ke is a Karma Yogi by definition, and who are you to trace another star's orbit?

The Lover is a Bhakhti Yogi. He abandons temporal interests and dedicates his life to service of the Order. He will kill himself, if need be, that the Order may live. Such men organize Thelemic movements, thereby incurring the risk of persecution on the part of Old Aeon organizations and the „Black Lodge‟ — a better name for such organizations, and particuarly for the „Black Lodge‟, is „the die-hards.‟

The hermit is a Gnani or Raja Yogi. He gives only of his light unto men. Those who understand what this means are either Hermits or on their way to become Hermits. Those who do not understand what it means are better off without further information. Should they seek it, however, let them study Liber 156, Liber 370 and Liber 418.)"

(Source: » LIBER SCRIPTUM « [...] Aleister Crowley et.alCommentariesto Liber AL vel LegisThe Book of the Law - - - http://www.oto-hu.org/documents/essay/english/Commentaries_to_Liber_AL_vel_Legis.html )

My point is that this Thelema appears to have failed sorely with respect to its number[-s] of "mere" [self-identified] adherents or "mere" [self-identified] devotees, now over a Century after its prophet Aleister Crowley started writing its sacred scriptures.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

My point is that this Thelema appears to have failed sorely with respect to its number[-s] of "mere" [self-identified] adherents or "mere" [self-identified] devotees, now over a Century after its prophet Aleister Crowley started writing its sacred scriptures.

This is very exciting. After quoting reams of previous dialogums, you have stated your point.

Now, what is the point of your point?

We all already know that there are not a lot of Thelema-folk around. The philosophy is sorely deficient in numbers when it comes to counting those who are out knocking on doors, trying to spread the glad work.

Have you considered this: So What? The book says to argue not, convert not, just give 'em a booklet in red and black ink ... and let them be interested, or not.

ALSO; Let my servants be few and secret.

Now why would anyone who is trying to be few, and secretive about it, want to induct a bunch of blabbermouths who will post our names and numbers on Twit(ter) or Facepage?

There is no injunction in AL to "be fruitful and multiply," or to "take over the devotions of the masses." Exactly the opposite.

Perhaps you would like to start assessing Fakir Crowley's work from the viewpoint of doing the work in order to obtain individually-different, or the same, results ... and casually drop the measurement of Thelema in numbers of vehicles (which are limited in production, as it says so in the scriptures) ... ?


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4135
 
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

My point is that this Thelema appears to have failed sorely with respect to its number[-s] of "mere" [self-identified] adherents or "mere" [self-identified] devotees, now over a Century after its prophet Aleister Crowley started writing its sacred scriptures.

I don't understand why, wellreadwellbred, you preface your remarks with previous exchanges between us, but we are talking at cross purposes here. Shiva has expressed it well in his reply, in my opinion. We're talking at cross-purposes because I don't see Thelema as being a religious movement, but something the understanding of which is arrived at by occult work; you, on the other hand, seem to see it solely as a religious movement.

The curious thing about all this for me is that although I was immersed in the works of Crowley for a few years from the late 1960s to the late 1970s, much the greater influences on my thinking and practise have been Kenneth Grant, Austin Osman Spare and, more latterly, Achad; if push came to shove, I would identify myself as an advaitin (yes, I know: paradoxical or what?). However, because of my solid Crowley background, and my abiding interest in the Amalantrah Working and the drawing of Lam, I'm inclined to spring to Crowley's defence when I think he's being traduced, as he is in this instance when you seem almost to be channelling Carrot_Childe.

 

 


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dom
 dom
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Posted by: @michael-staley

a few years from the late 1960s to the late 1970s, much the greater influences on my thinking and practise have been Kenneth Grant, Austin Osman Spare and, more latterly, Achad;

 

Not Aquino?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
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Posted by: @dom

Not Aquino?

No, not Aquino. I'm not methodical, but rather going where intuition takes me. If I'd come across something by or about Michael Aquino which interested me, and then I would have leapt into the nearest taxi with a cry of "Follow that car, cabbie!".


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dom
 dom
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Posted by: @michael-staley
Posted by: @dom

Not Aquino?

No, not Aquino. I'm not methodical, but rather going where intuition takes me. If I'd come across something by or about Michael Aquino which interested me, and then I would have leapt into the nearest taxi with a cry of "Follow that car, cabbie!".

So not Shrek or LaVey's daughter either then?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Michael Staley
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MANIO - it's all in the egg
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Posted by: @dom

So not Shrek or LaVey's daughter either then?

Once again, dom, you're bang on the money.


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dom
 dom
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Posted by: @michael-staley
Posted by: @dom

So not Shrek or LaVey's daughter either then?

Once again, dom, you're bang on the money.

Because there's an extensive interview on YouTube with those two talking to an Evangelical Christian, have you seen it?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
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Posted by: @dom

Because there's an extensive interview on YouTube with those two talking to an Evangelical Christian, have you seen it?

No I haven't, and I don't think it would interest me that much to be honest.


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wellreadwellbred
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Michael Staley: "I don't understand why, wellreadwellbred, you preface your remarks with previous exchanges between us"

My point is that Aiwass according to AC was the one communicating both The Vision and the Voice and The Book of the Law, and that this Aiwass in the former book explains that one of the "therein Three Grades," described as pertaining to "The word of the Law is THELEMA.", if one "look but close into the word." (all stated in the mentioned The Book of the Law), "is the ["mere"] adherent (as stated in the mentioned The Vision and the Voice)."

"... the Law is for all.", according to the mentioned The Book of the Law. And AC worked "to help all [...] to fulfil themselves perfectly, each in his or her own proper function.":

"I have written this book to help the Banker, the Pugilist, the Biologist, the Poet, the Navvy, the Grocer, the Factory Girl, the Mathematician, the Stenographer, the Golfer, the Wife, the Consul — and all the rest — to fulfil themselves perfectly, each in his or her own proper function." ( Source: Introduction and Theorems. Magick in Theory and Practice, Book 4 - - - https://hermetic.com/crowley/book-4/defs   )

 

Does it upset you Michael Staley, that the Thelema described by AC and/or Aiwass, does also involve it being a religious movement, in addition to it being "... something the understanding of which is arrived at by occult work; ..."???

I know that visual use of the swastika symbol is a "hot-button issue" for ignant666, another member on this site, and I can respect that, and I do not intend to upset anyone when I write about the above mentioned Thelema as a religious movement.

My point is that this Thelema has failed to attract large numbers of "mere" adherents or "mere" devotees, due to AC and/or Aiwass' highly controversial use of terms and formulations from world religions predating it. 

Like for example when Aiwass in The Cry of the 30th Æthyr within the part of The Vision and the Voice written in Mexico 1900, states: 

"O Saviour of the World, bruise Thou my Head with Thy foot to save the world, that once again I touch Him whom I slew, that in my death I feel the radiance and the heat of the moving of Thy Robes!

Let us alone! What have we to do with Thee, Thou Jesus of Nazareth?"

The above quote appears to be inspired by this verse from the King James Bible:

"(Genesis 3: 15.) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Does it upset you Michael Staley, that the Thelema described by AC and/or Aiwass, does also involve it being a religious movement, in addition to it being "... something the understanding of which is arrived at by occult work; ..."???

No, it doesn't upset me at all; I just couldn't care less. I simply ignore the elements of Thelema being a religious movement, because it doesn't interest me. Likewise, there are aspects of The Book of the Law which I ignore. I've never cared for sentiments such as stamping down the wretched and the weak, though I appreciate that there may be some Thelemites who count the day as wasted if they haven't struck hard and low at seven of the wretched and the weak before breakfast. Similarly, injunctions to revere "the Prophet" leave me cold.

This extends to other areas too. For decades I've been very attracted to Buddhism, in particular the Mahayana, and more particularly still the Prajnaparamita texts; but I don't feel that I need to take on board the First Noble Truth. I rate Nietzsche very highly, in particular his later work such as The Dawn, The Gay Science, and Thus Spake Zarathustra, but don't feel the need to swear allegience to everything that he wrote.

Yes, I know that Crowley had hopes of Thelema being a mass movement, but I don't think it's likely; still less does it "upset me" that at one time he thought it might.


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dom
 dom
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Posted by: @michael-staley
Posted by: @dom

Because there's an extensive interview on YouTube with those two talking to an Evangelical Christian, have you seen it?

No I haven't, and I don't think it would interest me that much to be honest.

Shrek thinks that Adolf Hitler is a viable source to borrow quotations from.  Didn't he go on to form the Temple of Set?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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dom
 dom
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Posted by: @michael-staley
Posted by: @dom

Because there's an extensive interview on YouTube with those two talking to an Evangelical Christian, have you seen it?

No I haven't, and I don't think it would interest me that much to be honest.

Shrek thinks that Adolf Hitler is a viable source to borrow quotations from.  Didn't he go on to form the Temple of Set?

 

By the way concerning what you posted earlier, the "stamping down the wretched and the weak" isn't about physically stamping on people per se.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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RTC
 RTC
(@therealrtc)
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Be afraid, my wavering flock, for the Magicole Hair is upon you.  He has descended from on-high not to demonstrate the futility of manifesting on this mired dais, but to note that when the self-delusional bullshit reaches neck-height, somebody has to muck-out the stable.   

@shiva - “There is no injunction in AL to "be fruitful and multiply," or to "take over the devotions of the masses." Exactly the opposite.

Erm... How about “The Law is for All” and “New World Religion.”  Which seem rather all-encompassing and contrary to your aspic.

@michael-staley – “So carry on, by all means, with your fatuous insistence that Thelema is simply a religious movement, the success or failure of which is to be measured by the number of "self-declared" adherents. Never mind the quality; feel the width.

There is width aplenty, but no quality, as noted by @wellreadwellbredMy point is that this Thelema appears to have failed sorely...”  We are speaking of a miracle touted by its creator as a revelation “a million times more important than the discovery of the Wheel, or even of the Laws of Physics or Mathematics.”  Yet, a century later and there’s still no sign of life - Any apologists of Crowley willing to take that train-wreck on? And, @shiva, please don’t play the “It took Christianity 400 years to...” card.  C’Mon! These days, a fat fucker wearing a daft hat, crashing around to an ABBA ditty can circumnavigate the globe in a minute, picking up hundreds of millions in his wake.  Thelelma can’t even muster 31 members on a web-site.

Crowley’s holiest tract declares Let there be no difference made amongst you between any one thing & any other thing.Yet, ten minutes later, he’s pecking and hacking and trampling on all other brands of crapulous creed.  Read enough Crowley and it’s possible to merrily haul yourself (and, unfortunately, others) round and round, from one disappointment to another, using (in the manner of a bad habit, or dependency) the obsolete mental contradiction crutches adeptly demonstrated by several vociferous members.

@michael-staley – “Crowley wrote, in Magick in Theory and Practice: "'Do what thou wilt...' is to bid Stars to shine, Vines to bear grapes, Water to seek its level; man is the only being in Nature that has striven to set himself at odds with himself." This is the most succinct definition of Thelema that I have come across. And it's what I understand by Thelema. 

For once, your thoughts attain a reasonable level of clarity. It is indeed a most excellent sound-bite, but... the functionality of these natural wonders are not reliant upon dogma, ritual, grades or costume.  All happen quite merrily with no prompting from a local Ipsissimus or Magickal Record.  Incidentally, “man” does not strive to set himself at odds with himself.  This unfortunate trait arose in consequence of attainment of the faculty of self-awareness.  Our striving is actually aimed at reuniting ourselves with the state of seamless harmony with all nature we formerly and unknowingly enjoyed. 

Aleister Crowley did not invent the New Aeon, which did not happen in consequence of his Magickal prowess.  The New Aeon, so called, is a function of global evolution. It would have manifested, precisely as it did, had Aleister Crowley been an accountant.  Crowley’s genius was that of intuitively deducing what was about to happen, and why, and creating a rough, though flawed sketch of the new terrain.

If Crowley’s brand Thelema worked, as advertised, or in any way detectable beyond the ego of adherents, then converts would not be exchanging intellectual opinions, like head-tennis,  on forums such as these.  They would be excitedly shouting the secret from the rooftops.  Which indeed, I am doing.  Albeit through a thick dark fog..

Abrogate are all rituals, all ordeals, all words and signs.End of story. Horus has dawned.  All Hail the Horus Toy™

Incidentally, and right on cue - Yet another inglorious example of the toxic harvest from Crowley’s tainted strain currently blossoms in Scotland.  I’ll not quote the word ‘scam’ (or any other of the rather more colourful expletives dancing in the highland mist and, actually, with reference to its ancient Egyptian roots, the term ‘Pyramid Scheme’ is infinitely more inappropriate) lest this thread too be summarily executed by the OHO of this particular digital cult of Crowley.  By his works shall ye know them.

Thus spake the Magicole Hair

There will be no encore. You are unworthy of an emoticon.


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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Barry "Nikolas Schreck" Dubin's assumed last name is "Schreck" [German for "fear/scare"], not "Shrek", but, like WRWB's recent "Fustian", maybe you are onto something with this apparent typo.

Dubin/Schreck now claims to be a Buddhist, and has renounced Satanism, and Nazi ideology; probably a better fit for a nice Jewish boy from Encino, Ca. Not, of course, that he had much choice after his former Nazi pals discovered he was a Jew.

Why on earth would Michael, or anyone else with a lick of common sense, care what idiots like him, his ex-wife, Aquino, or other Set/Satan cultists babble about?


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4135
 
Posted by: @dom

Shrek thinks that Adolf Hitler is a viable source to borrow quotations from.  Didn't he go on to form the Temple of Set?

I don't know, I'm afraid. The only Shrek I know about is the footballer Wayne Rooney.

Posted by: @dom

By the way concerning what you posted earlier, the "stamping down the wretched and the weak" isn't about physically stamping on people per se.

I'm aware that the phrase is open to interpretation, whereby "the wretched and the weak" is a reference to ill-disciplined thought. To some it might seem a bit of a stretch, as one victim of the Inquisition said to another.


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wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
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Posts: 1120
 

Aiwass' above mentioned statement in The Cry of the 30th Æthyr within the part of The Vision and the Voice written in Mexico 1900, has recemblance to the King James Bible's Genesis 3: 15.:

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.".

Though the serpent is not explicitly identified in the Book of Genesis, he is identified with Satan in Aleister Crowley's favorite book in the Xian Bible (King James Bible translation) (a (favorite-)book much used by Aleister Crowley both in his book The Vision and the Voice, and in his The Book of the Law): 

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. [...] . . . He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, ... (Revelation 12: 9.; 20: 2.)".

 

RTC(@therealrtc), early in this thread you wrote "Early next year [2020], in “666, Sex and the New Aeon of Horus,” I shall include a sampler of the toy in the form of an elementary (small battery) ‘try it at home’ exercise.  From this material, it is within the scope of anyone (and especially those with an occult grounding) to adapt the methodology and incorporate bigger batteries, with a correspondingly larger... splash.  Later next year [2020], in “The Paranormal Decided,” and in the plainest language, I shall release a full description of the toy, of how and why I believe it works as it does, and its function as a factor of global evolution.  It is not overly tongue-in-cheek to suggest that the book comprises one sentence of practical instruction and 200 pages of exceedingly good reasons why the instruction should not be actioned.  Oh, and a page absolving me of any and all responsibility, liability, etc. if someone does and matters get... out of hand [...]

Early in the new year [2020] “666...” offers a practical application – From which the “mental giants” populating LAShTAL should have no difficulty in deducing myriad variations.  Later next year [2020] “The Paranormal Decided” maps it out for the benefit of all lost souls bereft of a grounding in Crowley’s priceless insights (i.e. the Banker, Pugilist, Navvy, Grocer, Factory Girl etc..)

@Shiva – Go on, try it. You know you want to.  It’ll be like a vigorous spiritual enema. Mmmmmmm... Cleansing." 

(Source: Page 1 and 2, this thread: https://www.lashtal.com/forums/postid/101429/ and https://www.lashtal.com/forums/postid/101461/   )

RTC(@therealrtc), when will you release 666, Sex and the New Aeon of Horus" ,and when will you release The Paranormal Decided???


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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Golly, yet another long, pointless post, consisting almost entirely of strung-together quotations, by WRWB.

It must be a day of the week that ends with "Y", and a time that ends with "o'clock". After so many years of trolling this site, shouldn't you be better at it?

As to the recent post by the discredited fraud/delusional hack known among men as "RTC": At the dispatch window of the messenger service i worked at for so many years, there was a graffito that said "Whining is the sound of anger coming through a very small hole". Can't think why that comes to mind.

Glad to see that they're allowing you some access to a computer again at that, um, facility near Barking; those four-point restraints must be quite unpleasant. This post indicates they may need to up the dose on your medications, as the delusions of adequacy seem to persist.


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Duck
 Duck
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Posted by: @therealrtc

for the Magicole Hair is upon you

Welcome back. I still don't get the "hair" pun, why not "hare"? There's one one the Stele:

hare

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christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
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Posts: 2857
 
Posted by: @michael-staley
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Does it upset you Michael Staley, that the Thelema described by AC and/or Aiwass, does also involve it being a religious movement, in addition to it being "... something the understanding of which is arrived at by occult work; ..."???

No, it doesn't upset me at all; I just couldn't care less. I simply ignore the elements of Thelema being a religious movement, because it doesn't interest me. Likewise, there are aspects of The Book of the Law which I ignore. I've never cared for sentiments such as stamping down the wretched and the weak, though I appreciate that there may be some Thelemites who count the day as wasted if they haven't struck hard and low at seven of the wretched and the weak before breakfast. Similarly, injunctions to revere "the Prophet" leave me cold.

This extends to other areas too. For decades I've been very attracted to Buddhism, in particular the Mahayana, and more particularly still the Prajnaparamita texts; but I don't feel that I need to take on board the First Noble Truth. I rate Nietzsche very highly, in particular his later work such as The Dawn, The Gay Science, and Thus Spake Zarathustra, but don't feel the need to swear allegience to everything that he wrote.

Yes, I know that Crowley had hopes of Thelema being a mass movement, but I don't think it's likely; still less does it "upset me" that at one time he thought it might.

Thats the beauty of this forum, and the mag tag? mob that we are here.  We all take different pieces from Crowleys work and apply it to our lives.

I believe what I said when I said that Thelema is basically Daoist.

But thats also a cop out because Daoist is like water and like everything.

But I know you understand my meaning.

 

Mick, have you ever thought about writing your own personal book about what Thelema means to you, and what you learnt especially in close contact with Kenneth?

 

I think it would be an invaluable addition to Thelemic thought and I would really love to read it.

 

 


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2857
 

@therealrtc

 

wtf is wrong with you.

 

thanks for adding some local colour to the pub, at least. 

 

You still write as a man scorned by your erstwhile bride. 


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Jamie J Barter
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Posts: 1822
 
Posted by: @therealrtc

@shiva - “There is no injunction in AL to "be fruitful and multiply," or to "take over the devotions of the masses." Exactly the opposite.

Erm... How about “The Law is for All” and “New World Religion.”  Which seem rather all-encompassing and contrary to your aspic.

But there's no mention whatsoever of "New World Religion" in AL, and though the Law is indeed for "All", the option is there for some, or even All, to turn it down if they want to, with no such "injunction" to have to go along with it.  As a matter of fact folk can chance whether to 'take it or leave it' and abide in the "bliss" of participation or no(t) - "it is no odds". (III:39).

Wellreadwellbred (or any other "butters-in" such as you-know-who), do you think people can accept everything (else) AC wrote about the philosophy of Thelema,  as in "discovering and doing one's true will" (and in so doing describe themselves as Thelemites), whilst at the same time choosing to ignore as 'unacceptable' parts or altogether the contents of The Book of the Law?

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

RTC(@therealrtc), when will you release 666, Sex and the New Aeon of Horus" ,and when will you release The Paranormal Decided???

When he feels good and ready to do so is the answer to that one - the advice there is as always, not to bate your breath.  The real question, of course, is: will there be a need for any further revelatory appendices at a later date...

Peritonitisically yours?

N Joy


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

The real question, of course, is:

will batteries be included with the Horus Toy?

I think we should all take a moment, and salute the courage RTC has demonstrated by showing his face in these parts again, after the abject humiliation, and utter embarrassment, that was eLGMOR.

We can only hope his psychiatric team continue to allow him "computer privileges", which i suppose may in turn depend on whether the therapy around "Not biting staff's noses off any more" has been progressing apace.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

My point is that this Thelema has failed to attract large numbers of "mere" adherents or "mere" devotees

Yes, this is true. Again, your point is refuted with, "So what?"  The Book itself says so itself in the scriptures, "Let my servants be few and secret." It was/is not intended to be a big movement for "the many and the known."

Posted by: @michael-staley

Yes, I know that Crowley had hopes of Thelema being a mass movement

And that's exactly where this promulgation stuff comes in. AC hinted, commanded, and pleaded for Thelemites to "extend" the Law of Thelema into the Established world, particularly in his formal OTO writings.

Since it seems to be a common reaction among anyone to get excited about some spiritual or necromantic concept, and to rush out to tell one's peers all about it, we can see why (almost) everyone wants to promulgate. But when we promulgate Thelema upon our family and friends, we find an abhorent reaction arises, and we get our first lesson in "fewness and secretiveness."

Posted by: @dom

"stamping down the wretched and the weak" isn't about physically stamping on people per se.

Yes. The entirety of Ch 3 can be applied toward the weak and wretched aspects of one's very own inner childe. This can be a profitable application.

But then we read about what's happening in the external world, and perhaps wonder when the front lines will come to a neighborhood near one's own. Horus/Set. War. Revolution. Violent Protests with Fire, and sometimes Steel. So we want to protect ourselves (1st circuit), our territiry (2nd), our ideas (3rd), and our cultural bias (4th), so we seek a resolution (5th) between inner and outer.

Unfortunately, most systems fail to provide this resolution (harmony), which is understandable because that 5th, at grade 5 Tiphareth, has to be engaged by one's own self, independent of any known system.

As for kickin' and stompin', I have found that only the philosophy and practice of Aikido resolves this inner/outer conflict. Of course, it is describing wu-wei, which is common to Taoism and Dzogchen and Samadhi, so its not an exclusive deal. But it becomes really practical, and perhaps a bit exclusive, when it is applied against multiple simultaneous opponents ... without hurting them.

I don't find this concept floated much in Thelemic literature.

Posted by: @therealrtc

Be afraid, my wavering flock, for the Magicole Hair is upon you.  He has descended from on-high not to demonstrate

Eek!

Posted by: @therealrtc

How about “The Law is for All” and “New World Religion.

Yes, the Law is for All. But they shall choose, after looking at the Book with red and black ink ... once only. Then they are among "the chosen," who are "few and secret."

The New World Religion was not mentioned in AL, and thus must be part of the demon Crowley's religious fixation.

Posted by: @therealrtc

Crowley’s holiest tract declares Let there be no difference made amongst you between any one thing & any other thing.

Yes. This is a description of samadhi. It is not something that one can do with their mind, except their mind can appreciate the state after it has been experienced and exited. But then the mind fires up again, and the dogma starts again. Only wu-wei will save you, RTC, and your friend, Bred, from this insane dualism you are caught up in.

Posted by: @therealrtc

Read enough Crowley and it’s possible to merrily haul yourself (and, unfortunately, others) round and round, from one disappointment to another

Yes. This is in respect to the AC Philosophy. I have advocated doing the work of the Class D's, and being careful with any philosophical concepts. We have discussed this a bit lately, since you went away. You have become an iconic symbol for some archetype. People mention "RTC" a lot.

Posted by: @therealrtc

Aleister Crowley did not invent the New Aeon, which did not happen in consequence of his Magickal prowess.  The New Aeon, so called, is a function of global evolution. It would have manifested, precisely as it did, had Aleister Crowley been an accountant.  Crowley’s genius was that of intuitively deducing what was about to happen, and why, and creating a rough, though flawed sketch of the new terrain.

Right. We can move on to the next pile-on.

Posted by: @therealrtc

If Crowley’s brand Thelema worked, as advertised, or in any way detectable beyond the ego of adherents, then converts would not be exchanging intellectual opinions, like head-tennis,  on forums such as these. 

Oh, Richard T., you are such a dork. Your depth of perception is not as deep as you pretend.

Posted by: @therealrtc

They would be excitedly shouting the secret from the rooftops.  Which indeed, I am doing.  Albeit through a thick dark fog.

But, if there is no secret, and there is none, then they would be insane to go climbing around on those dangerous rooftops. Which you are. And why come to a forum where your futility has become a source of amusement?

WellRead seems synchronized with one of your points, being that how much of a failure Thelema is dur to a poor headcount. He has not taken into account the lack of adequate testing kits.

The thick dark fog will lessen as you slowly move your assemblage point back toward its natural position. Then all these delusions will gradually fade. You said it yourself: The "New Age" was coming, with or without AC. So why does RTC want to tell us about something that's still coming on, that we're well aware of, and why would he be peddling a secret toy technique, like the IX* Carrot, which doesn't work for the Childe?

Posted by: @therealrtc

I’ll not quote the word ‘scam’ (or any other of the rather more colourful expletives dancing in the highland mist

Just keep digging up the dirt. There is a division hither homeward, and you are minding other people's business while ignoring your own inability to produce something based on our common reality.

Posted by: @therealrtc

There will be no encore. You are unworthy of an emoticon.

Upon seeing these words, all readers becam enlightened.

Posted by: @ignant666

Why on earth would Michael, or anyone else with a lick of common sense, care what idiots like him, his ex-wife, Aquino, or other Set/Satan cultists babble about?

Why? You ask, Why? Because trivia and qliphotic lead the river into rivulets that end in stagnant ponds.

 


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Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 1822
 
Posted by: @christibrany

Mick, have you ever thought about writing your own personal book about what Thelema means to you, and what you learnt especially in close contact with Kenneth?

I think it would be an invaluable addition to Thelemic thought and I would really love to read it.

I thought he already covered this ground in his (excellently and cogently written) Starfire essays "The Heart Of Thelema" and "Scintlllations in Mauve" - presumably you've come across and read both of these? 

Perhaps they're not quite so much from an especial "Kenneth" angle though, "granted" - and possibly there might be additional scope for something along the lines of Remembering Kenneth Grant (like KG himself did with Crowley)...

N Joy


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wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1120
 

[All text in bold in quote below, was not in bold in the original text quoted from:]

Shiva: "I don't see anybody proclaiming a "New Thelema," or a "Thelema Revised.""

(Notice, that AC's Thelema in the following example is revised from a future tense or state of being, to a simple present tense or state of being, as an action happening right now, (and/)or as an action happening regularly or unceasingly. Notice also that this revised or new Thelema is defined as based on compassionless love:)

     "In 1925, after being expelled from France and Belgium, Aleister Crowley was invited by Heinrich Tränker to his home near Weida in Thuringia, Germany. At the so-called Weida Conference which then took place, Crowley wanted to be proclaimed as World Saviour (Weltenheiland), and demanded that all of the German esoteric societies under Tränker’s control should subordinate themselves to the Crowleyan world lodge A.˙.A.˙. – a proposal that Tränker utterly rejected. As part of the attempt to achieve his goals, Crowley also put pressure on Albin Grau, who demanded that Tränker step down as Grand Master of the Pansophical Lodge. The conflict escalated, and a majority of the members (minus Tränker) joined the newly founded Fraternitas Saturni. The FS adopted Crowley’s so-called Law of Thelema governing the “new aeon”, but slightly altered its form: “Tue was Du willst, ist das ganze Gesetz. Liebe ist das Gesetz, Liebe unter Willen. Mitleidlose Liebe.” This translates as: “Do what thou wilt, is [shall be in Crowley] the whole of the Law. Love is the law, love under will. Compassionless love.” The final phrase “Mitleidlose Liebe” was specifically added by the FS to emphasize its severe, Saturnian character.

     The leader of the FS, Eugen Grosche, informed Aleister Crowley of this development in two letters (1926 and 1927). He also sent him the order’s statutes, which made it clear that the Fraternitas did not wish to recognize any kind of spiritual master (hence not Crowley). Grosche nevertheless emphasized in an accompanying text that the FS was the only lodge in Germany that had adopted Crowley’s Law of Thelema. The FS had further contact with Crowley, but remained completely independent from an organizational standpoint. At present the FS has no official contact with any OTO groups, and therefore the Law of Thelema provides the only de facto link between the FS and Crowley."

(Source: Page 39 in Henrik Bogdan & Gordan Djurdjevic (Eds.) - 2013 - Occultism in a Global Perspective, Chapter 3 THE MAGICAL ORDER OF THE FRATERNITAS SATURNI Hans Thomas Hakl

Translated by Annabel Monyihan and Michael Monyihan )

 


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3563
 

Is it just possible, WRWB, that Shiva's statement might have had an implied "any time within the memory of of now-living persons"?

Is there some point to your posts?

Will they ever stop, or at least ever become less opaque, and not just consist of endless quotes, if you have to keep posting?


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5829
 
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

[All text in bold in quote below, was not in bold in the original text quoted from:]

Try, please try, to omit all references to anything that was written before now, and try to say something in the form of a direct response to something said in the here-and-now. Time lags are permitted due to  not everyone being online all the time.

Be cautious therefore, for each posted quote or reference will require the Jugorum razor to set its mark upon thine brow or butt, depending on your free will to choose.

You see what a fierce guru I would make. Thank your stars you're not under my tent.

 


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