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The Knights of Baphomet


Damien
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Were any other contributors ever knighted as a KOB? I've wondered for a long time what ever came of it and any mention of them on the internet is long gone.  


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Damien
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Before this gets buried by new posts I thought I'd comment in the hopes of prompting contribution. Fingers crossed. 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @damien

I thought I'd comment

But you're not supposed to. See The Guidelines. Attempts to boost your own program are [gasp] restricted.

In simple terms, lots of people (how many?) read all the new posts daily. If nobody responds, it means nnobody knows, or cares, or is interested.

will add a comment/question, but it certainly won't help in finding out their present activity (if any). Unfortunately, I never heard of the Knights of Baphomet (correctly spelled, BafometR). Can you provide some historical background?


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Damien
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Posted by: @shiva

But you're not supposed to. See The Guidelines. Attempts to boost your own program are [gasp] restricted.

Mea culpa. I'll get the hang of it. 😖

Posted by: @shiva

will add a comment/question, but it certainly won't help in finding out their present activity (if any). Unfortunately, I never heard of the Knights of Baphomet (correctly spelled, BafometR). Can you provide some historical background?

I didn't want to volunteer too much information for fear of faux pas though, hopefully, stepping on the guidelines is the worst I can do. 

The KOB was a "secret" internal order in the OTO started by McMurtry as Caliph. Members were literally knighted. I have a recollection of it either having been, or having been recommended to be, a non official grade above the IV*. As it was explained to me by Frater ION it was an attempt to preserve the original AA. I had no idea what that meant at the time and I don't know what that did or does mean now. It was also either a functional or romanticized security organization for the Caliph. 

I asked Phyllis Seckler about it and she dismissed it out of hand. She said it was an organization formed to help McMurtry score drugs. 

I assumed McMurtry founded it after his experiences with the Society for Creative Anachronism but I knew so few KOB in the first place I never got to the bottom of it. I also assumed it was completely dead at this point and this seems to be the case. 


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katrice
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Posted by: @damien

The KOB was a "secret" internal order in the OTO started by McMurtry as Caliph. Members were literally knighted. I have a recollection of it either having been, or having been recommended to be, a non official grade above the IV*. As it was explained to me by Frater ION it was an attempt to preserve the original AA. 

This has me quite intrigued. An A:.A:. based order of knights, and, presumably, dames? 

 I never heard of the Knights of Baphomet

I just did a search on the name, and, after filtering out links to songs and games, only found five pages with any information at all. 


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Damien
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Posted by: @katrice

This has me quite intrigued. An A:.A:. based order of knights, and, presumably, dames? 

There were certainly dames but it was, to the best of my knowledge and experience, far ore OTO based than AA.

Posted by: @katrice

I just did a search on the name, and, after filtering out links to songs and games, only found five pages with any information at all. 

Let's have those links!


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katrice
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Posted by: @damien

There were certainly dames but it was, to the best of my knowledge and experience, far ore OTO based than AA.

That's a little disappointing. I kind of like the idea of an A:.A:. knighthood.

Let's have those links!

 

This is literally all mentions I found. There's not a lot of information in any of them, and this was just a quick search with several filters applied to keep out the biggest irrelevant categories:

 

 
 
 
 
 
There's also this person, whose page says "Grand Prior of the Order of the Knights of Baphomet".  Given what I saw in the other links, I don't think that has any connection to what you're talking about:
 
 

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Damien
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Posted by: @katrice

This is literally all mentions I found.

Those are some good info links though. The first is especially good. I wish there were more and better sources as to the conception as the info in these links disagree and my own memory is certain McMurtry started it. But you know how memories are...


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Shiva
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Posted by: @damien

The KOB was a "secret" internal order in the OTO started by McMurtry as Caliph.

Aha!  I know about that fellow (but not his nights).

Posted by: @damien

it was an attempt to preserve the original AA.

Okay. The Agape Lodge menu was that first one joined the OTO. Somewhere along the line, a promising candidate would be taken aside and trained-in/offered A.'.A.'. membership. It was kept quiet, in the background. Grady McM was a IX* member of Agape, but he doesn't seem to have followed the A.'.A.'. curriculum - except to declare himself 9=2. His superior, his wife no less, kicked him out of the A.'.A.'., as as Probationer, because he wouldn't do the work.

Fast foward to Solar Lodge where the outer structure and rites were OTO, but nobody got any degree until the passed the A.'.A.'. test and signed the corresponding A.'.A.'. Oath as a prerequisite. That worked well, but if were to be repeated, there are some changes I would suggest.

Just as Solar Lodge was collapsing, McM came back on the scene. He Revived OTO based on what he could remember from Agape. Well, he didn't seem to promote A.'.A.'. work. So somebody (maybe with his blessing) wanted to get some work done.

Posted by: @damien

It was also either a functional or romanticized security organization for the Caliph. 

Oh, the Secret Service. Being bodyguards does not imply or coincide with A.'.A.'. work, but it better describes Knights of Baphomet.

Posted by: @damien

I asked Phyllis Seckler about it and she dismissed it out of hand. She said it was an organization formed to help McMurtry score drugs. 

This might be the accurate denominator.

Posted by: @damien

I never got to the bottom of it.

It's a deep well to dig. I'll go along with the Seckler version, pending anything new.

Posted by: @damien

my knowledge and experience, far [m]ore OTO based than AA.

Yes. That would fit the pattern.

 


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katrice
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Posted by: @damien

Those are some good info links though. The first is especially good. I wish there were more and better sources as to the conception as the info in these links disagree and my own memory is certain McMurtry started it. But you know how memories are...

Thank you!  The first was definitely the most informative.  I've never heard of Rusty Sporer before so this feels like a whole new chapter of Thelemic history for me. 

Has anyone asked Bill Heidrick if he knows anything? 


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Damien
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Posted by: @shiva

His superior, his wife no less, kicked him out of the A.'.A.'., as as Probationer, because he wouldn't do the work.

I do recall this being true, and she spoke of him in far from flattering anecdotes. But this is also where you have to doubt some of those things said, as I have known many a once-upon-a-time married couple who shared the same post marriage disdain for one another. 

Posted by: @shiva

Fast foward to Solar Lodge where the outer structure and rites were OTO, but nobody got any degree until the passed the A.'.A.'. test and signed the corresponding A.'.A.'. Oath as a prerequisite. That worked well, but if were to be repeated, there are some changes I would suggest.

Also SL were the only ones working with the original source material (Braynton via Wolfe), while the soon to be cOTO only had up to the II* rituals. 

Posted by: @shiva

Oh, the Secret Service. Being bodyguards does not imply or coincide with A.'.A.'. work, but it better describes Knights of Baphomet.

And this may have been related to the death threats McM was supposedly receiving. 

Posted by: @shiva

This might be the accurate denominator.

 

Yes. But, again, the tainted tales of ex spouses, etc. 


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Damien
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Posted by: @katrice

I've never heard of Rusty Sporer before so this feels like a whole new chapter of Thelemic history for me. 

At some point I hope to scan and make available his many letters to me. 

Posted by: @katrice

Has anyone asked Bill Heidrick if he knows anything? 

Bill certainly knows much. My guess is he'd be tight lipped. 


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katrice
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Posted by: @damien 

At some point I hope to scan and make available his many letters to me. 

I'm sure they'd be appreciated here. 😀 

Bill certainly knows much. My guess is he'd be tight lipped. 

I know someone who's on good terms with Felicia.  I could see what I can find out.

 


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Damien
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Posted by: @katrice

I know someone who's on good terms with Felicia.  I could see what I can find out.

 

I just emailed him. I'll let you know. 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @damien

Also SL were the only ones working with the original source material (Braynton via Wolfe), while the soon to be cOTO only had up to the II* rituals. 

Brayton got her materials via Ray Burlingame, who simply had a full set of Agape Lodge carbon-paper typescripts. Wolfe was the Grand Master of Agape in the '30s.

But McM was reported to have conducted his first initiation, trembling, by reading it out of Secret Rituals of the OTO, so he had the whole ball of wax, except for the Word of the III* and a proper understanding of the rites of the higher degrees. So McM and H.B. had everything SL did (except the little ditties I just cited.

Posted by: @damien

the tainted tales of ex spouses

There's a funny thing here, which I will explain (possibly for the first time). Seckler was pretty stable. McM was is his own way, but he had certain instabilities. Now it came to pass that some legal authority recognized McM as the OTO heir and gave him possession of Germer's OTO library. This treasure was secreted by McM and Phyllis in a locked storage cubicle. They both had access, but no one else.

And it came to pass that the Cubicle was looted of some of its treasure. Phyllis accused McM of Looting the Lodge. Mcm, in turn, accused her of Looting the Lodge. They broke up not long after that, and nobody pretends to know the truth.

I have evidence, in the form of a protected witness (who was rather close to this affair), who says McM Looted the Lodge because he needed money.

It is well-documented that McM sold the Thoth Tarot to the Card Company for $500 - for "beer money." The same principal principle applies to the missing Cubical Treasure.

Posted by: @damien

Bill certainly knows much. My guess is he'd be tight lipped. 

All those guys who were really into it tended to be silent or pretended to be stupid. Heidrick was the Wazir of McM Lodge. He had the knowledge and he wrote the missives. It was acknowledged that he should have been the next Caliph, but I understand the younger hippies thought he was a has-been old foggy fogie. 

I wouldn't know. I never met the man, but I read much of his work. I don't know if he had the persona, the will, to become King of the Hill. Sometimes the loyal royal assistant isn't made up for command.

Posted by: @damien

I just emailed him. I'll let you know.

Ooh!  The plot thickens. I wish I had someone to ask (about anything), but they all said, "Well, that's enough of this crap," and moved over to the other side.

 


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Damien
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Posted by: @shiva

Brayton got her materials via Ray Burlingame, who simply had a full set of Agape Lodge carbon-paper typescripts. Wolfe was the Grand Master of Agape in the '30s.

I thought it was Mildred. Potato, potato.

Posted by: @shiva

But McM was reported to have conducted his first initiation, trembling, by reading it out of Secret Rituals of the OTO, so he had the whole ball of wax, except for the Word of the III* and a proper understanding of the rites of the higher degrees. So McM and H.B. had everything SL did (except the little ditties I just cited.

I also have a different understanding of this. I thought they had typewritten versions of the SR that needed piecing together about the II. How many details were missing I have no idea. What understanding of any of it was had or shared is a total mystery. 

Posted by: @shiva

There's a funny thing here, which I will explain (possibly for the first time). Seckler was pretty stable. McM was is his own way, but he had certain instabilities. Now it came to pass that some legal authority recognized McM as the OTO heir and gave him possession of Germer's OTO library. This treasure was secreted by McM and Phyllis in a locked storage cubicle. They both had access, but no one else.

Are you forgetting or omitting Brayton's robbery of the Germer house? That robbery is how people learned of Germer's death. Then McM moves to CA from DC and then the Caliphate.

Posted by: @shiva

I have evidence, in the form of a protected witness (who was rather close to this affair), who says McM Looted the Lodge because he needed money.

Well hopefully that evidence never dies on the vine!

Posted by: @shiva

All those guys who were really into it tended to be silent or pretended to be stupid.

Well when most of the information you have to share suggests the invalidity of everything...

Posted by: @shiva

Ooh!  The plot thickens. I wish I had someone to ask (about anything), but they all said, "Well, that's enough of this crap," and moved over to the other side.

Well we're not buddies. 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @damien

Potato, potato.

?

No, Milly was Jean's friend. But as soon as Milly took Jean home, Ray became her teacher/link. Milly was always at work when she (and later, I) met with Ray. But Milly was also an authority to us, mostly on dogmatic things you should or should not do. The link was from Crowley, to Wolfe, to Burlingame, to Brayton, to that idiot Shiva ... where it ended ... because I refused to work with any OTO initiatory rites (henceforth (c)1972>

That was the formal lineage for Solar Lodge at the IX* level. (c)OTO says it was a clandestine operation and does not count in The Golden Book. But Ray also studied under AC directly (by mail). I took instruction from Jean, Ray, and Milly.

Milly was obsessed with re-opening the OTO. One candidate opener was McM. When he was mentioned, she got stars in her eyes. She finally got her wish. The last picture I saw of her showed weight gain, but she had the stars in her eyes and a true smile on her face. I think she was sitting at the Caliph's kitchen table. She had realized her dream. Then she moved to Montana and died.

Posted by: @damien

What understanding of any of it was had or shared is a total mystery. 

They may have had pieces of rituals, but Grady had The Secret Rituals of the OTO. Everybody did. I did. I still have a digital copy. That book is a correct rendering of the rites. So the original holo-book was available to compare or collate any fragments.

But I wonder what rites Grady attended? Crowley gave him the IX*, just like Grant and Frank Bennet. These were battlefield promotions, and (as far as I know) none of them ever went through a even Minerval camp on their way to the top. HA went from IV* to OHO. This is not jump-claiming, it is jump-promotion.

Posted by: @damien

Are you forgetting or omitting Brayton's robbery of the Germer house? That robbery is how people learned of Germer's death. Then McM moves to CA from DC and then the Caliphate.

Why, how could I forget all those details? I wrote about them in my book. I am referring to the second burglary, which technically was not a robbery (like the first) as nobody was robbed but something got burgled.

There was a third burglary when HA took over. Great numbers of books and docs disappeared as people quit (or didn't) and took things away.

I am referring to the various distributions by illegal means of the formal, official, OTO library. The three major atrocities took place in West Point, CA (Germer), a Storage Locker (McM), and (I believe) the third in Berkeley, CA. I was not referring to crimes committed against Milly, Regardie, or Riverside County, which are well-known. I was not pointing the finger at McM, saying he was bad. I was differentiating between Phyllis (A.'.A.'.) and McM (OTO), giving as an example how the OTO operated at a certain point.

At those points, and at other places along the road, I would suggest that everybody was bad, including Crowley, Germer, McM, Brayton, myself, and just about anybody else I can think of.

Posted by: @damien

Well when most of the information you have to share suggests the invalidity of everything...

Aha! and the 30 ehoes. I see you are beginning to get my drift. I highly recommend my little book, Treatise on Naught. The essence of the text is the invalidity of everything ...

It's sort of Zen-like, but with a magical twist. It leads up to Dzogchen, but at a certain point it leaves Thelema behind ... (because wu-wei has stepped in.

 


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Damien
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Posted by: @shiva

They may have had pieces of rituals, but Grady had The Secret Rituals of the OTO. Everybody did. I did. I still have a digital copy.

I still have the hardcover. 

Posted by: @shiva

These were battlefield promotions, and (as far as I know) none of them ever went through a even Minerval camp on their way to the top.

Political organization with magick as a side-hustle. 

Posted by: @shiva

I wrote about them in my book.

I'll have to buy and read it!


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Shiva
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Posted by: @damien

I'll have to buy and read it!

Well, you don't have to. Besides, there's 23 books. Let me help a bit. I inferred two different books. The first, Treatise on Naught, is an Anthem of the Supernal Order - that being How to Lose Your Mind in Nine Easy Steps. So here's (below) a pdf Table of Contents. You pick the Chapter you think is most mysterious, or outrageous, or whatever, and I'll post it right here for you and anyone.

Being as how the Chapters are sort of short, please also select one Appendix that may interest you.

As to historical Tales of Initiation and High Adventure, when I said, "It's all in my book, I meant Inside Solar Lodge - Behind the Veil, which is another matter. Let's get Naught out of the way - then I'll offer something from Inside ... or was it Unside? No, I think the typo in the first printing was Insude? Anyway, later.


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Damien
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Posted by: @shiva

As to historical Tales of Initiation and High Adventure, when I said, "It's all in my book, I meant Inside Solar Lodge - Behind the Veil

Why is it another matter? I was going to buy it at some point. 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @damien

Why is it another matter? I was going to buy it at some point. 

Because I mentioned one book first (Naught), and so I offered a Chapter first.

The second book mentioned was not named, at first. Then I offered it as a Chapter from Inside Solar Lodge, but it was "another matter (later)" because nobody wants to get me confused while juggling two tomes, the second of which has no single Table of Contents, yet, so that offer will come after the author gets it prepared, and after a Chapter from Naught has been accepted, rejected, criticized, or proclaimed as a hate crime, by yourself or anyone else.

You, of course, are free to buy a new or used Inside Solar Lodge at any time. Please note my comment below. I just wanted to offer something to go on, to - you know - pass the time.

Comment

Lulu sells my books. They also offer global distribution (Amazon, Barnes & Nobel, etc), but you let Lulu become the publisher, and they require an ISBN and a bunch of anal formatting for this service, which seems to have an author's profit margin at about 1% - so I always pass on this option, and thus I cannot be sold on Amazon.

A funny thing happened to me a few days ago, when I saw, essentially, all my books listed on Amazon ... at 2x or 3x (sometimes much more) the Lulu price. And Lulu even offers discounts, at times (usually 15%).

The Amazon books are, of course, sold by a seller, who then orders the book from Lulu - to be mailed to the buyer. Yes, I have become a wholesaler. But I recommend anyone goes to Lulu direct.

 


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Damien
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Posted by: @shiva

and after a Chapter from Naught has been accepted, rejected, criticized, or proclaimed as a hate crime, by yourself or anyone else.

You, of course, are free to buy a new or used Inside Solar Lodge at any time. Please note my comment below. I just wanted to offer something to go on, to - you know - pass the time.

I'm legitimately confused. Why am I choosing a chapter of Naught?

Posted by: @shiva

The Amazon books are, of course, sold by a seller, who then orders the book from Lulu - to be mailed to the buyer. Yes, I have become a wholesaler. But I recommend anyone goes to Lulu direct.

Your selling your books via Amazon, yes?


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ignant666
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He is selling his books via Amazon, no.

 


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Damien
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Posted by: @damien

Your

*You're.

Is there no edit function on this forum? 

Edit: There is for the newest post but then it goes away and is no longer available?


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Shiva
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Posted by: @damien

Why am I choosing a chapter of Naught?

You are Not.

Anybody else want to pick a Chapter from Naught? Yes? Please do so. No? Good - then we can move on back to Nights of BafometR.

Posted by: @damien

Your selling your books via Amazon, yes?

No. I issued a warning about buying higher-priced book from Amazon sellers.

Posted by: @shiva

Lulu sells my books.

Posted by: @ignant666

He is selling his books via Amazon, no.

Oh, good. You came to the correct conclusion. I thought perhaps I thought perhaps I was expressing myself in incomprehensible concepts.

 

 


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ignant666
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Posted by: @damien

Is there no edit function on this forum? 

Edit: There is for the newest post but then it goes away and is no longer available?

Yes, there is an edit function. And yes it goes away. See- i just edited this post after you edited yours.

For about 15-20 minutes after posting, you can edit your posts by clicking the edit button. The time limit is to prevent historical revisionism after folks have already responded.

You can also preview posts before posting, which sometimes is helpful in spotting typos.

The Outside The Law/Inside Solar Lodge book is well worth buying.


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Damien
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Posted by: @ignant666

For about 15-20 minutes after posting, you can edit your posts by clicking the edit button. The time limit is to prevent historical revisionism after folks have already responded.

A good policy! 

Posted by: @ignant666

The Outside The Law/Inside Solar Lodge book is well worth buying.

I believe it. I just want to get it from the place that gives the author the largest cut which may or may not be Lulu. 


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Damien
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Posted by: @shiva

No. I issued a warning about buying higher-priced book from Amazon sellers.

 

Lulu it is. 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @damien

I believe it. I just want to get it from the place that gives the author the largest cut which may or may not be Lulu. 

Lulu sells all my books. Weiser/Teitan published my first book. That one, Outside the Law, is long-gone out of print. Lulu printed and sold all my other books, although Weiser picked up distribution of 5 other books. But now, be-here-now, real time, today, ALL my books are sold by Lulu. I set the price, which automatically sets the profit, which (as I said) keeps the prices at wholesale level.

So I get the same "cut" whether it's bought direct from Lulu, or bought by a third-party seller on Amazon. That seller will make a much bigger "cut" alright. But in the book trade, the retailer almost always buy books at half the retail price (in bulk, of course).

Now the head guy at Weiser told me he had to maintain an Amazon seller presence just to counter this widespread practice - and he told me that over a decade ago. When I saw my books going for 2x/3x, I thought, It seems I can sell direct on Amazon, after all, and I spoke with the Amazon Robot who wanted $39 a month to be an Amazon seller. This would be more than my average monthly profit over the past few years. This is my hobby, my avocation, not my business. Why bother when it's just another way to lose money?

Here, let me introduce you directly ...

Softcover: https://www.lulu.com/en/us/shop/frater-shiva/inside-solar-lodge-behind-the-veil-softcover/paperback/product-1v9kr4qe.html?page=1&pageSize=4

Hardcover: https://www.lulu.com/en/us/shop/frater-shiva/inside-solar-lodge-behind-the-veil-hardcover/hardcover/product-1rzg5dv9.html?page=1&pageSize=4


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elitemachinery
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Posted by: @shiva

Now the head guy at Weiser told me he had to maintain an Amazon seller presence just to counter this widespread practice - and he told me that over a decade ago. When I saw my books going for 2x/3x, I thought, It seems I can sell direct on Amazon, after all, and I spoke with the Amazon Robot who wanted $39 a month to be an Amazon seller. This would be more than my average monthly profit over the past few years. This is my hobby, my avocation, not my business. Why bother when it's just another way to lose money?

I am an Amazon seller (i recently deactivated) and the monthly fee is only for people who need certain benefits and want a higher cut of profits.

If u wanted to publish on kindle (Amazons digital publisher) u could probably make decent money as you have lots of material on martial arts etc. All you'd need to do is have some covers made and come up with catchy keyword titles and your writings would see a new audience. Amazon has hundreds of millions of customers searching for books on any subject every day. It's all about the keywords you choose. If you put "How to..." in the title it might help also...not sure...but all u need is a good cover and title...u already have the content:

https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/

Keep the books short and put out many sequels...you will make more money and build an audience.

This is an exhaustive post on the subject but very good from Niche Pursuits blog:

https://www.nichepursuits.com/self-publish-a-book-on-amazon/


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Damien
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The final word from Mr. Heidrick who, as discussed, knows much. This also suggests there are at least a few KOB still wandering around. 

"I was there when it started. R.S., who led an OTO group in Canada in those days, had been in Salt Lake City to visit and assist with a local OTO group. R.S., and a friend, drove from Utah to California to visit Grady and myself. They came up with the idea of the Knights of Baphomet during that drive. It was to be a sort of honor core to support the Caliph, Grady in those years, during his travels and special occasions. Grady agreed with the idea and performed the first ceremonial admissions into the Knights of Baphomet in my home temple just north of San Francisco and across the Bay. Grady borrowed an old Masonic ritual sword for the purpose, and that happens to be in the room where I am typing this email, leaning against the wall about eight feet from where I'm sitting now. I was offered membership in it on the occasion of starting it, but I declined on grounds that I had too much to do with my regular OTO office.
The Knights of Baphomet was never a part of OTO, itself, but when created it was intended only for OTO members as an external group. It expanded over the years, Rusty and others wrote articles about it in the Magical Link periodical and there were various attempts to organize it -- none really successful. It spread around North America and Europe, mainly; but there were instances of it elsewhere. Owing in part to a failure to set up a central organization, the small groups of Knights of Baphomet pretty much made it up as they went along. Mostly, it was harmless, but in some locations, especially in Europe, individual Knights decided that they were in charge of local OTO and could order OTO initiates around. This was abuse per say, but in a very few instances it went quite wrong to the point of interfering with OTO activities and in the private lives of individual members. OTO, itself, didn't even record who was a member of the KofB, since it was not OTO and should maintain its own records. I had to advise people reporting initiations that it was inappropriate to include Knights of Baphomet initiations with OTO reports, since the information did not belong in OTO records at all and was simply discarded. Eventually, the Knights of Baphomet had to be excluded from OTO activities because of the disorganization and excesses that sometimes attended their presence."
 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @damien quoting B.H.

the Knights of Baphomet had to be excluded from OTO activities because of the disorganizationh and excesses ...

I see. Bullies. Thanks for clearing that one up, Bill.


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Damien
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Posted by: @shiva

I see. Bullies.

Are "disorganizationh and excesses" necessarily traits of the bully? 

Posted by: @damien

in some locations, especially in Europe, individual Knights decided that they were in charge of local OTO and could order OTO initiates around.

Literal bullying. But of the ones I have known (and the one I do know), I would say that bullying is far from a commonality. 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @damien

Are "disorganizationh and excesses" necessarily traits of the bully?

Not necessarily. But self-deciding to tell OTO initiates what to do sounds like the very essence of bulliness.

Posted by: @damien

Literal bullying. But of the ones I have known (and the one I do know), I would say that bullying is far from a commonality. 

Yes, those European bullies are the naughty ones, indeed. Okay, so there were just a few bad apples over Europe way.

I am impressed by the way this Knighthood was just made up, and reinvented along the way, but finally with no official sanction (especially after 1986), it just faded away. I have seen that movie (actually, I was in it).

 

 


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Damien
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Posted by: @shiva

Yes, those European bullies are the naughty ones, indeed. Okay, so there were just a few bad apples over Europe way.

I couldn't begin to guess. 

Posted by: @shiva

I am impressed by the way this Knighthood was just made up, and reinvented along the way, but finally with no official sanction (especially after 1986), it just faded away. I have seen that movie (actually, I was in it).

You mean like entire religions are made up and then, sometimes, fade away (or at least fade into relative obscurity)?


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Shiva
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Posted by: @damien

You mean like entire religions are made up and then, sometimes, fade away (or at least fade into relative obscurity)?

Yeah.


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