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jamie barter
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23/04/2013 5:17 pm  

As part of on-going research with which I am involved, please could anybody advise of any information with respect to the position of who may have succeeded Marcelo Motta aka Adjuvo aka Parzival XI[sup:134j31k2]o[/sup:134j31k2] in respect of his position of “Director”* of the above organization and its current status quo in whatever form.

My own understanding is that following Motta’s last wishes and his “Instrument of Succession” & the fading away of the named triumvirate involved, David Berrson aka Fra Sphinx (Castletower), and Ray Eales aka Fra 939 (Head of the H[oly] O[rder] O[f] R[aHoorKhuit]) appear to be the prime existing contenders; further information might best be relayed upon Lashtal for immediate general dissemination purposes, but I would also appreciate communications if anyone is shy via PM as a viable alternative.

Yours “Socially”, with any thanks as appropriate:
Norma N. Joy Conquest

(*=OHO/ Frater Superior; also irregularly named “Follower” - meaning “successor” - as such by his predecessor within the Order and Crowley’s own successor, Karl Germer aka Fra Saturnus.)


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newneubergOuch2
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24/04/2013 1:55 pm  

It is my basic understanding that Motta was never an actual OTO member -..., only of AA.


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jamie barter
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24/04/2013 2:32 pm  

An interesting point of conjecture, Ouch.  However at the moment I’m not so much interested in the validity (or not) of Motta’s own claims, as to the nature of succession post-mortem:

(They say s/he comes on a pale horse - but I’m sure I hear a train)
N. Joy


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Walterfive
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18/05/2013 5:02 am  

Correct that Motta was never an O.T.O. Member, I'm not sure that Karl Germer was either.

Yes, both Eales and Bersson claim to be Motta's successor, for whatever that's worth. There was a branch of Motta's group in Australia that popped up several years ago; they reprinted some now very rare volumes of Motta's Equinox that are worth more than the original editons, apparently because they didn't finish filling all the orders that were sent to them for these books.

I do find it quite interesting that several of Motta's former students, Hymanaeus Beta, Daniel Gunther, and James Wasserman are now noted Editors and Authors, and high-ranking members of the O.T.O. and the Caliph's branch of the A.'.A.'., while Hymanaeus Alpha's ranking A.'.A.'. Student, Jerry Cornelius, is now persona non grata in the O.T.O.  Odd how the ol' world turns.


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Azidonis
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18/05/2013 6:14 am  
"Walterfive" wrote:
Correct that Motta was never an O.T.O. Member, I'm not sure that Karl Germer was either.

If memory serves, Germer was never a member of the O.T.O., although he did sort of inherit the O.T.O. when Crowley died, and did his best to act as its mortician.

"Walterfive" wrote:
Yes, both Eales and Bersson claim to be Motta's successor, for whatever that's worth. There was a branch of Motta's group in Australia that popped up several years ago; they reprinted some now very rare volumes of Motta's Equinox that are worth more than the original editons, apparently because they didn't finish filling all the orders that were sent to them for these books.

Ray Eales founded H.O.O.R., and David Bersson took the reigns of S.O.T.O..

Also:

"On the night of August 26-27 1987, Motta died of "mycordial infarction and pulmonary oedema". He was buried in the city of Petropolis, which is in a hilly region near Rio de Janeiro; his bones were interred in an ossuary underneath a Roman Catholic chapel in the cemetery there. His Last Will and Testament (dated October 15 1984) named William Robert Barden, Claudia Canuto de Menezes, and Daniel Ben Stone as his heirs with responsibility for continuing his version of the O.T.O.

Motta's death caused a number of schisms. In December 1987 de Menezes parted company from both Barden (who was now calling his Australian branch of Motta's O.T.O. the 'Foundation Parzival XI°'), and from Stone. Another former follower of Motta, and de Menezes' boyfriend, one David L. Bersson who now lived in the USA, unilaterally proclaimed himself to be the "Frater Superior of the Entire World" of the SOTO; Bersson had signed his first 'Oath and Task' in Motta's AA on January 14 1974, and his first S.O.T.O. 'Letter Patent' on Sepember 12 1977. Meanwhile, an American Motta disciple called Ray Eales concentrated his energies on Motta's A.·. A.·. (also working in "H.O.O.R." in the US) and the now independent "Gnostic Church of L.V.X".

Mr. Bersson stated in an e-mail of March 2000 that: "In conversation to me, and a few others, Marcelo Motta stated that the only successor that was worthy of following him was Claudia Canuto. And as you know, she withdrew into the silence. She never officially resigned from the Society O.T.O., however. But she left, never to be heard of again, stating she wanted to go live her own life. I am honest to say this, that I was never at any time considered for the succession from Marcelo Motta. Therefore, I can only do what I am presently doing. Exist as a lineage of AA and O.T.O. from my Superior. I certainly am one of the followers of Marcelo Motta as a pupil in good standing at the time of Mr. Motta death. But I have never claimed to be THE follower. He did name me for certain position(s) within the Order but this would turn out to be only a spiritual claim. How I am accepted with other brethren in my lineage isn't the question to are asking at all."

It is notable that many of the leading authorities in the 'Caliphate' rescension of the O.T.O. were once pupils of Marcelo Motta. Even today, Motta's original X° appointee Euclydes is viewed as the "Senior Brother in the A.·. A.·." by many 'Caliphate' adherents. But Lacerda has now severed his links with every O.T.O. group (including the 'Typhonian' O.T.O.), since he considers 'the' O.T.O. to be redundant, and is now the leader of his OTCT Thelemic Knight Templar Order, which uses Motta's rituals. "

"Walterfive" wrote:
I do find it quite interesting that several of Motta's former students, Hymanaeus Beta, Daniel Gunther, and James Wasserman are now noted Editors and Authors, and high-ranking members of the O.T.O. and the Caliph's branch of the A.'.A.'.,

Let us not forget that all three of those people cut their ties with (or had them cut from) Motta while he was still alive. FWIW:

Breeze - "an ex-Probationer who failed to keep his Oath and perform his Task and was cut contact with as a result. Now pirating O.T.O. material with Peter Macfarlane [1997 E.V. NOTE:  Breeze went from an association with the Kenneth Grant pseudo-o.t.o., to Motta's idiotic S.O.T.O., and finally on to McMurtry's Caliphate pseudo-o.t.o. which he became the "Caliph" of, Hymenaeus Beta, after Grady was out of the way.]"

Gunther - "withdrew voluntarily from the A.·.A.·."

Wasserman - "at a time was a Probationer under Marcelo Motta; received a full power of attorney from Motta to handle the legitimate transfer of O.T.O. property to qualified hands; disobeyed all his instructions and delivered the property into the hands of thieves.  Was transferred to another Instructor and subsequently was cut contact with for breaking his Oath."

Source

"Walterfive" wrote:
while Hymanaeus Alpha's ranking A.'.A.'. Student, Jerry Cornelius, is now persona non grata in the O.T.O.  Odd how the ol' world turns.

Indeed. For anyone's reading pleasure: An Open Epistle on the Attempted Expulsion of Frater Achad Osher 583 (J. Edward Cornelius).

As for the Australian, and possibly others involved (and of other nationalities), surely there were/are.

One can spend years with all of the available material (not just what is posted above), and it amounts to little more than a small pile of sand. And not the fine sand either. The type of sand that is clumped up around a fresh cat turd.

Enjoy your research, jamie.


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belmurru
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18/05/2013 11:42 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
"Walterfive" wrote:
while Hymanaeus Alpha's ranking A.'.A.'. Student, Jerry Cornelius, is now persona non grata in the O.T.O.  Odd how the ol' world turns.

Indeed. For anyone's reading pleasure: An Open Epistle on the Attempted Expulsion of Frater Achad Osher 583 (J. Edward Cornelius).

Thanks for the link. I feel like I have to take a shower now.

It confirms what I intimated in my post of May 7

http://www.lashtal.com/forum/http://www.lashtal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=76273#p76273

Being old-school Grady OTO myself, which I knew through Nephthys Lodge Master Fr. ByThor (Edmonton), I have a great deal of sympathy with Jerry Cornelius. It is, ultimately, politics, and a litmus-test for belief in hidden authority.

None of these politics any longer concern me, nor most Thelemites, who are independent. The only thing which makes it a real concern, in the real world, is that the US OTO has Crowley's copyright, and the moral weight that goes with it (like the old saying, "possession is nine tenths of the law"). Everybody else is just howling in the wilderness for now.


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Shiva
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18/05/2013 5:08 pm  
"Walterfive" wrote:
... O.T.O. Member, I'm not sure that Karl Germer was either.

As I understand the matter, Germer never went through the OTO degree system, but was designated as Grand Treasurer General by AC. And. of course, he was named as the successor in AC's will (where all his stuff was willed to "The OTO").

Now let's stop and consider this "battlefield promotion," and all others as well. Who, we might ask, has actually walked the entire "path" from Minerval to IX*, taking all the grades in their prescribed order? I can't think of a single person. The current OHO seems to have jumped from IV* or V* to X*, thence to OHO.

Again, WHO is known to have walked the entire "path" from Minerval to IX*, taking all the grades in their prescribed order?


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Walterfive
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18/05/2013 6:01 pm  

The Caliph was still in the Man of Earth Triad, a IVth Degree, when Grady McMurtry died without leaving an apparent heir; the East Coast and West Coast coalitions of the Order couldn't decide on each other's nominees (as I recall, Bill Heidrich was the California nominee, and James Wasserman was the East Coast nominee). This all happened before I joined the Order in 1987, but just a few years before, and people were still flappin' their gums about it.

From Liber 194: "The succession to the high office of O.H.O. is decided in a manner not here to be declared; but this you may learn, O Brother Magician, that he may be chosen even from the grade of a Minerval. And herein lieth a most sacred Mystery."

And so it was that Hynaneaus Beta was chosen as O.H.O. although he was only a IVth Degree. He was the one candidate that both coasts were comfortable with. Some feel and/or might suggest that this passage gave assent to the precedent within the Order.

Nobody previously had taken the degrees from Minerval to X' because Crowley never finalized the rituals for the highest degrees, rough drafts exist, but mostly he wrote papers and knowledge lectures for the highest degrees, 8th & 9th. The fleshing out of the bones of those degree rituals has been done, and the Caliph has since been through those rituals.


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Azidonis
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18/05/2013 7:54 pm  
"Walterfive" wrote:
The Caliph was still in the Man of Earth Triad, a IVth Degree, when Grady McMurtry died without leaving an apparent heir; the East Coast and West Coast coalitions of the Order couldn't decide on each other's nominees (as I recall, Bill Heidrich was the California nominee, and James Wasserman was the East Coast nominee). This all happened before I joined the Order in 1987, but just a few years before, and people were still flappin' their gums about it.

From Liber 194: "The succession to the high office of O.H.O. is decided in a manner not here to be declared; but this you may learn, O Brother Magician, that he may be chosen even from the grade of a Minerval. And herein lieth a most sacred Mystery."

And so it was that Hynaneaus Beta was chosen as O.H.O. although he was only a IVth Degree. He was the one candidate that both coasts were comfortable with. Some feel and/or might suggest that this passage gave assent to the precedent within the Order.

Nobody previously had taken the degrees from Minerval to X' because Crowley never finalized the rituals for the highest degrees, rough drafts exist, but mostly he wrote papers and knowledge lectures for the highest degrees, 8th & 9th. The fleshing out of the bones of those degree rituals has been done, and the Caliph has since been through those rituals.

So, he went from IV* to X*, and then went back and created VII* and IX* rituals to do, and did them? Were you implying that he formally went through V*-VII* as well? I'm honestly not quite sure I understand what you said. Any help is appreciated.


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Walterfive
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18/05/2013 8:14 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
"Walterfive" wrote:
The Caliph was still in the Man of Earth Triad, a IVth Degree, when Grady McMurtry died without leaving an apparent heir; the East Coast and West Coast coalitions of the Order couldn't decide on each other's nominees (as I recall, Bill Heidrich was the California nominee, and James Wasserman was the East Coast nominee). This all happened before I joined the Order in 1987, but just a few years before, and people were still flappin' their gums about it.

From Liber 194: "The succession to the high office of O.H.O. is decided in a manner not here to be declared; but this you may learn, O Brother Magician, that he may be chosen even from the grade of a Minerval. And herein lieth a most sacred Mystery."

And so it was that Hynaneaus Beta was chosen as O.H.O. although he was only a IVth Degree. He was the one candidate that both coasts were comfortable with. Some feel and/or might suggest that this passage gave assent to the precedent within the Order.

Nobody previously had taken the degrees from Minerval to X' because Crowley never finalized the rituals for the highest degrees, rough drafts exist, but mostly he wrote papers and knowledge lectures for the highest degrees, 8th & 9th. The fleshing out of the bones of those degree rituals has been done, and the Caliph has since been through those rituals.

So, he went from IV* to X*, and then went back and created VII* and IX* rituals to do, and did them? Were you implying that he formally went through V*-VII* as well? I'm honestly not quite sure I understand what you said. Any help is appreciated.

No, he didn't "create" the initiatory rituals, Crowley did, but some of them were never fleshed out., and some had alternate versions that had rather different ordeals. One unfinished higher degree  I've been told about that was passed over involved the crucifixion of a toad.

Yes, that is my understanding, that he took all those degrees retroactively.


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Shiva
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18/05/2013 8:37 pm  

There always were (in AC's time) rituals for Minerval up to VI*. V* was RC in style, and VI* was Templar. Yes the Knights Templar. These rites were published in Secret Rituals of the OTO by King. He also published the papers that related to the VII*, VIII*, and IX*, in the same book (but not including Emblems and Mode of Use), stating that there were no rituals for these advanced degrees.

But AC himself, in a letter, briefly described the rituals. the rite of Epopt of the Illuminati was described by him (apparently as a novel or a fantasy, but who knows) in Energized Enthusiasm, wherein the candidate "accidentally" finds himself attending a full-scale Mass. To become a Pontiff of the Illuminati, the candidate assumes the role of the priest. Nothing was mentioned regarding the priestess or women in general. The IX* merely added the use of the elixir.

Of course, this might only have been a rough outline in AC's mind. I have seen no evidence that this description of the rites was ever put into full, operative documents. But it is what was written by AC, and it is common knowlege among certain initiates who never participated in, or attended, such rites.

I have also seen a document where the current OTO (or its representative at some level) implied or openly stated that the nature of the rituals has been changed so that the rites that were revealed in the marketplace by the editor King would no longer resemble the reality of what takes place.


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Shiva
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18/05/2013 8:55 pm  

Returning to the original topic (SOTO), it is common knowledge that Mr Motta was never an OTO member (except in the Society of his own creation) - even though he offered me the Directorship of the OTO in California (under certain conditions).  😮

Note: I declined.

Now, the OTO being a temporal order (as in material plane), and the Motta SOTO having been trumped by the McMurtry OTO in federal court, it seems the SOTO stopped - even though there are claimants to successorship, but I believe these are A.'.A.'. lineages. But many of the disciples of Mr Motta's endeavors then somehow switched over to the McMurtry OTO (as ponted out by Walter5), so that today, the OTO capstone roster does indeed reflect many who started out in SOTO.


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Azidonis
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18/05/2013 9:21 pm  
"Walterfive" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
"Walterfive" wrote:
The Caliph was still in the Man of Earth Triad, a IVth Degree, when Grady McMurtry died without leaving an apparent heir; the East Coast and West Coast coalitions of the Order couldn't decide on each other's nominees (as I recall, Bill Heidrich was the California nominee, and James Wasserman was the East Coast nominee). This all happened before I joined the Order in 1987, but just a few years before, and people were still flappin' their gums about it.

From Liber 194: "The succession to the high office of O.H.O. is decided in a manner not here to be declared; but this you may learn, O Brother Magician, that he may be chosen even from the grade of a Minerval. And herein lieth a most sacred Mystery."

And so it was that Hynaneaus Beta was chosen as O.H.O. although he was only a IVth Degree. He was the one candidate that both coasts were comfortable with. Some feel and/or might suggest that this passage gave assent to the precedent within the Order.

Nobody previously had taken the degrees from Minerval to X' because Crowley never finalized the rituals for the highest degrees, rough drafts exist, but mostly he wrote papers and knowledge lectures for the highest degrees, 8th & 9th. The fleshing out of the bones of those degree rituals has been done, and the Caliph has since been through those rituals.

So, he went from IV* to X*, and then went back and created VII* and IX* rituals to do, and did them? Were you implying that he formally went through V*-VII* as well? I'm honestly not quite sure I understand what you said. Any help is appreciated.

No, he didn't "create" the initiatory rituals, Crowley did, but some of them were never fleshed out., and some had alternate versions that had rather different ordeals. One unfinished higher degree  I've been told about that was passed over involved the crucifixion of a toad.

Yes, that is my understanding, that he took all those degrees retroactively.

I see, thanks. I recall reading about Crowley's toad ritual during one of his retirements. I promptly thought it was ridiculous and unnecessary.

"Shiva" wrote:
But AC himself, in a letter, briefly described the rituals. the rite of Epopt of the Illuminati
was described by him (apparently as a novel or a fantasy, but who knows) in Energized Enthusiasm, wherein the candidate "accidentally" finds himself attending a full-scale Mass. To become a Pontiff of the Illuminati
, the candidate assumes the role of the priest. Nothing was mentioned regarding the priestess or women in general. The IX* merely added the use of the elixir.

Thanks for reminding me of the Illuminati bit. I should withhold many comments about this. It seems the Rothschild family is doing a much better job at the whole Illuminati business, though!

"Shiva" wrote:
Now, the OTO being a temporal order (as in material plane), and the Motta SOTO having been trumped by the McMurtry OTO in federal court, it seems the SOTO stopped - even though there are claimants to successorship, but I believe these are A.'.A.'. lineages. But many of the disciples of Mr Motta's endeavors then somehow switched over to the McMurtry OTO (as ponted out by Walter5), so that today, the OTO capstone roster does indeed reflect many who started out in SOTO.

Well, it seems that Bersson picked up S.O.T.O. instead of his girlfriend, who was in Motta's will. And of course, he represents an "A:.A:. lineage".

As for the (c)O.T.O. and linkages, I do not know the entire story. But it seems that, as VIII* under McMurtry, and as McMurtry's successor in that particular A:.A:. lineage, then Jerry Cornelius had every right to assume leadership of the (c)O.T.O. upon McMurtry's death.

But we all know the votes did not swing that way, and memory does not serve whether Cornelius was even on the voting ballot, or even if he wanted to be.

And then, Cornelius was kicked out of the (c)O.T.O., which if I am putting this together right, means that the real link to McMurtry in both A:.A:. and O.T.O., was severed at that time.

And Motta... well, I mean, one would really have to get into the nuts and bolts of this one, but I highly doubt Motta was qualified to do anything aside from run his mouth, leaving those who came after him in a category of "questionable", which would include the A:.A:. members that Motta expelled.


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lashtal
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18/05/2013 10:31 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
These rites were published in Secret Rituals of the OTO by King. He also published the papers that related to the VII*, VIII*, and IX*, in the same book (but not including Emblems and Mode of Use), stating that there were no rituals for these advanced degrees.

De Arte Magica was excluded, too, subsequently appearing in King's Crowley On Christ.

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 Anonymous
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19/05/2013 10:01 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:

And Motta... well, I mean, one would really have to get into the nuts and bolts of this one, but I highly doubt Motta was qualified to do anything aside from run his mouth, leaving those who came after him in a category of "questionable", which would include the A:.A:. members that Motta expelled.

I agree that those who were expelled by Motta may be classified as questionable. But there were those under him who continued. Also, have you read his commentaries to AL, LXV, Book 4 and MWT? He was hardly running his mouth there. It's some of the best thelemic stuff ever written, and many people agree on this. The times of scapegoating Motta are long gone, now that his ex Students run the Caliphate. It seems totally out of touch to me.

93/93
Timo


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Walterfive
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19/05/2013 5:05 pm  
"terra_trema" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:

And Motta... well, I mean, one would really have to get into the nuts and bolts of this one, but I highly doubt Motta was qualified to do anything aside from run his mouth, leaving those who came after him in a category of "questionable", which would include the A:.A:. members that Motta expelled.

I agree that those who were expelled by Motta may be classified as questionable. But there were those under him who continued. Also, have you read his commentaries to AL, LXV, Book 4 and MWT? He was hardly running his mouth there. It's some of the best thelemic stuff ever written, and many people agree on this. The times of scapegoating Motta are long gone, now that his ex Students run the Caliphate. It seems totally out of touch to me.

You're kidding, right? Running his mouth was his specialty. Every edition of his Oriflamme and edition of his Equinox had lists of poor bastards who'd fallen under his disfavor, sent to Coventry, their reputations blackened without reprieve.

His Magick Without Tears (Unexpurgated) is admittedly high with amusement factor, but his Commentaries to Al are a mess, the worst lot of rubbish he ever put his hand to.  I'll certainly give credit where it due-- his Equinox Vol. V Nos. 2, 3 & 4 are still of worth and interest to some of us (such as myself); there's still a few things in one or two of those that haven't made widespread general publication
(besides the interminable poetry of Claudia Canuto). This isn't "scapegoating" it is accurately assessing Motta's published legacy 30 years later.


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gurugeorge
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19/05/2013 6:07 pm  
"terra_trema" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:

And Motta... well, I mean, one would really have to get into the nuts and bolts of this one, but I highly doubt Motta was qualified to do anything aside from run his mouth, leaving those who came after him in a category of "questionable", which would include the A:.A:. members that Motta expelled.

I agree that those who were expelled by Motta may be classified as questionable. But there were those under him who continued. Also, have you read his commentaries to AL, LXV, Book 4 and MWT? He was hardly running his mouth there. It's some of the best thelemic stuff ever written, and many people agree on this. The times of scapegoating Motta are long gone, now that his ex Students run the Caliphate. It seems totally out of touch to me.

93/93
Timo

Totally agree with this assessment.  I was a Probationer in good standing with Motta at the time of his death.  I never associated with S.O.T.O.  I think Motta was a great teacher, probably the best we've had since Crowley himself - and the standing of his students in the current O.T.O. should testify to that. 

However, as with all teachers, he wasn't 100% successful.  And the standing of the current O.T.O. should testify to that 😉

To my mind, the succession passed legitimately through to the Australian guy, but my understanding is that he's either a junky and dead, or just a junky.  He did do some great web-publishing stuff for a while (the text of the trials, a great little essay on practice), but then went silent.

Ray Eales I quite like - I quite like some of his writing.  And HOOR seems to have been fairly active (although not much on the web, which is a bit of a let-down).

Bersson just seems to be mad (although not totally devoid of some insight - he's a bit like that Adi Da type of mystic: goes off on one).

Shame, Azidonis, that you're not a Motta fan;  I'm normally very simpatico with your comments here.  Hopefully one day you'll change your mind! 🙂


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Azidonis
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19/05/2013 6:28 pm  
"gurugeorge" wrote:
Shame, Azidonis, that you're not a Motta fan;  I'm normally very simpatico with your comments here.  Hopefully one day you'll change your mind! 🙂

I was a "Motta fan" at one time... then I woke up.

When I say that Motta and those linked to him are questionable, I'm being nice. I think each individual has the right, and by all means deserves, to be measured on their own merits. So, I do not agree with any assertion that, "You were/are connected with Motta, you must be a success," or, "You were/are connected with Motta, you must be a failure." Likewise, I think one can replace Motta with any name soever.

As for his writings, I think at best they show someone attempting to be a motivator and leader, and at worst they show a megalomaniac with many unresolved issues. I made up my mind some time ago that if Motta is a true and faithful representation of Thelema, then I simply want little to nothing to do with Thelema.

Add to that, I still haven't made up my mind whether or not I appreciate his commentary on Liber AL, not to mention some of the works of those who have come after him, most recently the ones involved in attempting to change "fill" to "kill".


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lashtal
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20/05/2013 12:41 am  
"Walterfive" wrote:
I'll certainly give credit where it due-- his Equinox Vol. V Nos. 2, 3 & 4 are still of worth and interest to some of us

I'd agree with that, Walterfive. Some very interesting material there that wasn't available elsewhere at the time of publication. With my bibliophile's hat on, they were handsome productions, too.

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Walterfive
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20/05/2013 3:10 am  
"lashtal" wrote:
"Walterfive" wrote:
I'll certainly give credit where it due-- his Equinox Vol. V Nos. 2, 3 & 4 are still of worth and interest to some of us

I'd agree with that, Walterfive. Some very interesting material there that wasn't available elsewhere at the time of publication. With my bibliophile's hat on, they were handsome productions, too.

Yes sir, they certainly were. "The Gold Equinox" is still absolutely beautiful. I gladly own Vols. 2, 3 & 4. I wish I owned a set of his Oriflamme editions, I really enjoyed Magick Without Tears (Unexpurgated) Parts 1 & 2.


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gurugeorge
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20/05/2013 7:56 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
As for his writings, I think at best they show someone attempting to be a motivator and leader, and at worst they show a megalomaniac with many unresolved issues.

Ha!  You could say the same thing about Crowley 😉


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Azidonis
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20/05/2013 10:09 pm  
"gurugeorge" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
As for his writings, I think at best they show someone attempting to be a motivator and leader, and at worst they show a megalomaniac with many unresolved issues.

Ha!  You could say the same thing about Crowley 😉

I probably have, at one time or another, lol


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Candide
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21/05/2013 9:05 am  

Does it seem odd to anyone that the people currently running OTO were mostly students of Motta, and had things gone otherwise might have ended up being the leadership of SOTO? Funny how the world turns...


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jamie barter
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21/05/2013 5:01 pm  

Since I began this thread, I felt I just had to make an exception and answer the very fine feedback it has received before I subsequently address any other outstanding matters on the Lash in due course.

Reply #4 by Azidonis on May 18, 2013, 06:14:22am:
One can spend years with all of the available material (not just what is posted above), and it amounts to little more than a small pile of sand. And not the fine sand either. The type of sand that is clumped up around a fresh cat turd.

Ha! - that is certainly one way of putting (sh)it!

Reply #4 by Azidonis on May 18, 2013, 06:14:22am:
Enjoy your research, jamie.

Yep!

Reply #5 by belmurru on May 18, 2013, 11:42:08am:
Quote from: Azidonis on May 18, 2013, 06:14:22 am
Quote from: Walterfive on May 18, 2013, 05:02:10 am

while Hymanaeus Alpha's ranking A.'.A.'. Student, Jerry Cornelius, is now persona non grata in the O.T.O.  Odd how the ol' world turns.

Indeed. For anyone's reading pleasure: An Open Epistle on the Attempted Expulsion of Frater Achad Osher 583 (J. Edward Cornelius).

Thanks for the link. I feel like I have to take a shower now.

As I believe I have said before: a highly invigorating activity, nicht wahr?

Reply #5 by belmurru on May 18, 2013, 11:42:08am:
None of these politics any longer concern me, nor most Thelemites, who are independent. The only thing which makes it a real concern, in the real world, is that the US OTO has Crowley's copyright, and the moral weight that goes with it (like the old saying, "possession is nine tenths of the law"). Everybody else is just howling in the wilderness for now.

Unfortunately true.  They have only had the copyrights since ’91.  And hopefully they will run out again in ’17 and put an end to this nonsense (and the howling)

Reply #6 by Shiva on May 18, 2013, 05:08:31 am:
As I understand the matter, Germer never went through the OTO degree system, but was designated as Grand Treasurer General by AC. And. of course, he was named as the successor in AC's will (where all his stuff was willed to "The OTO").

All of Crowley’s O.T.O. recruits “went through” the Man of Earth rituals with A.C. either personally or via correspondence.  To my knowledge, neither he not anyone else actually “initiated” such recruits, and these did not “physically” take place prior to Agape Lodge activities in sunny Caliphornia…

Reply #6 by Shiva on May 18, 2013, 05:08:31 am:
Again, WHO is known to have walked the entire "path" from Minerval to IX*, taking all the grades in their prescribed order?

Probably the same person who has taken all of the steps in Appliantology from ‘prole off the street’ to ‘Operating Thetan Class VIII’ – i.e., Nemo and Nema, those heavenly twins…

Reply #7 by Walterfive on May 18, 2013, 06:01:07 am:
The fleshing out of the bones of those degree rituals has been done,

- By whom, exactly?  A committee or one person, e.g. H.B.?

Reply #7 by Walterfive on May 18, 2013, 06:01:07 am:
, and the Caliph has since been through those rituals.

So I understand.  Who would have acted as the ‘initiator’ under these circumstances though, would anyone know?  And would it be the same person for V[sup:3s44ov8g]o[/sup:3s44ov8g], VI[sup:3s44ov8g]o[/sup:3s44ov8g], VII[sup:3s44ov8g]o[/sup:3s44ov8g] and VIII[sup:3s44ov8g]o[/sup:3s44ov8g] [and X[sup:3s44ov8g]o[/sup:3s44ov8g]]?  Has a pukka ceremony now been assembled for the IX[sup:3s44ov8g]o[/sup:3s44ov8g] and XI[sup:3s44ov8g]o[/sup:3s44ov8g]?  According to everybody else, before ’85 there were no rituals involved with these degrees. 

"Walterfive" wrote:
One unfinished higher degree  I've been told about that was passed over involved the crucifixion of a toad.

This refers to the VI[sup:3s44ov8g]o[/sup:3s44ov8g].  Not very P.C. these days, even though very J.C.

"Walterfive" wrote:
Yes, that is my understanding, that he took all those degrees retroactively.

Retroactive from the IX[sup:3s44ov8g]o[/sup:3s44ov8g], you mean?  Or maybe the XI[sup:3s44ov8g]o[/sup:3s44ov8g] or XII[sup:3s44ov8g]o[/sup:3s44ov8g]?  I don’t think he was ever the X[sup:3s44ov8g]o[/sup:3s44ov8g] of either Canada or North America under Grady, but may be mistaken here possibly?

"Shiva" wrote:
But AC himself, in a letter, briefly described the rituals. the rite of Epopt of the Illuminati was described by him (apparently as a novel or a fantasy, but who knows) in Energized Enthusiasm, wherein the candidate "accidentally" finds himself attending a full-scale Mass. To become a Pontiff of the Illuminati, the candidate assumes the role of the priest. Nothing was mentioned regarding the priestess or women in general. The IX* merely added the use of the elixir.

Could you possibly confirm, if known, the details of this letter specifically, i.e., written to whom and when, whether there is a photocopy and where the original might be.

"Shiva" wrote:
But it is what was written by AC, and it is common knowlege among certain initiates who never participated in, or attended, such rites.

Don’t quite follow the wording here.  Do you mean O.T.O. initiates – in which case, the sentence is self-contradictory; or other initiates, in which case could you specify, if known, which ‘tradition’ they were initiated in?

"Shiva" wrote:
Now, the OTO being a temporal order (as in material plane), and the Motta SOTO having been trumped by the McMurtry OTO in federal court, it seems the SOTO stopped -

With Motta, there is an alternating Period of Speech-Silence with his A.’. A.’. work, and his A.’. A.’. period of speech would have begun again in ’86, possibly ma[r]king a consequent dimuendo in S.O.T.O. activity.  Of course, I’m just hypothesising here…

"Azidonis" wrote:
I see, thanks. I recall reading about Crowley's toad ritual during one of his retirements. I promptly thought it was ridiculous and unnecessary.

See earlier reply to Walterfive, supra.

"Azidonis" wrote:
Well, it seems that Bersson picked up S.O.T.O. instead of his girlfriend, who was in Motta's will. And of course, he represents an "A:.A:. lineage".

Well since Claudio was ‘the most favoured Follower’, how exactly does this S.O.T.O. ‘transmission’ work?  To his credit at the time Bersson at least appeared to demur on any succession claim, as mentioned in your Reply #4 - Bersson: "But I have never claimed to be THE follower."  It has a weird sort of echo with Sascha Germer announcing to Motta that Karl Germer said he (Motta) was ‘most favoured Follower himself, in the complete absence of any such nominating documents from KG/ Fra Saturnus himself.  We are obliged to take a lot “on faith” here, rather than any degree of certainty.  It would be interesting to know what happened to Claudia and what her take on the matter is (if any - it would be rather amusing if she has “done a Leah”…)

"Azidonis" wrote:
As for the (c)O.T.O. and linkages, I do not know the entire story. But it seems that, as VIII* under McMurtry, and as McMurtry's successor in that particular A:.A:. lineage, then Jerry Cornelius had every right to assume leadership of the (c)O.T.O. upon McMurtry's death.

I can’t quite see the relevance of A.’. A.’. lineage to [C.]O.T.O. succession (although Motta himself did believe this, i.e. that at a high level 8[sup:3s44ov8g]o[/sup:3s44ov8g]=3[sup:3s44ov8g]□[/sup:3s44ov8g] A.’. A.’. was equivalent to XI[sup:3s44ov8g]o[/sup:3s44ov8g] O.T.O.

"lashtal" wrote:
De Arte Magica was excluded, too, subsequently appearing in King's Crowley On Christ.

King did not have access to a copy of IX[sup:3s44ov8g]o[/sup:3s44ov8g] Emblems and Modes of Use at the time of publication, although I believe it was known to him.  I also understand De Arte Magica was an accidental omission which would have been rectified if he had produced a further second edition.

"terra_trema" wrote:
I agree that those who were expelled by Motta may be classified as questionable.

Could we just clarify, is it meant here “those” people were questionable on account of their expulsion, or that the act of expulsion was itself questionable?

"terra_trema" wrote:
But there were those under him who continued.

As in, perhaps, that they did not fall by the wayside?

"terra_trema" wrote:
It's some of the best thelemic stuff ever written, and many people agree on this.

I would tend to concur on the whole with this.  Motta, when he was wise, was very, very wise.  And when he was stupid, he was… well, you get my drift here.  Fortunately for him, the former outweighed the latter (imho).

"terra_trema" wrote:
It's some of the best thelemic stuff ever written, and many people agree on this.

Note that, after A.C., no one else “in (whatever) authority” has written anything of such quantity (let alone the issue of quality) – certainly not Germer, who wrote hardly anything apart from his concentration camp memoir; nor McMurtry, who (in)famously wrote a few poems; nor Metzger of the Swiss recension.  Even Breeze has only (generally at least capably) edited & contributed towards Introductions, Forewords, etc.  Only Kenneth Grant would appear to be on any comparable level in this regard.

"terra_trema" wrote:
The times of scapegoating Motta are long gone,

A refreshing sign, although

"terra_trema" wrote:
now that his ex Students run the Caliphate.

Does not necessarily follow on.

"terra_trema" wrote:
It seems totally out of touch to me.

It is all rather a deliciously ironic situation all in all though, for some reason!...
What is it, incidentally, that marks out Motta’s A.’. A.’. credentials as being any more ‘real’ and ‘substantial’ than his alleged (non-)membership of the O.T.O.?

"Walterfive" wrote:
I'll certainly give credit where it due-- his Equinox Vol. V Nos. 2, 3 & 4 are still of worth and interest to some of us (such as myself); there's still a few things in one or two of those that haven't made widespread general publication

Like Crowley’s valuable 19076 & 1907 magical dairies; various ‘Taoist’ writings; the Bagh-i-Muattur (prior to Teitan Press); Leah Sublime & the Paris Working in full, for example??  More than thirty years later we are still waiting for A.C.’s diaries for these years (and all the others) to appear.  Meanwhile, Motta’s Equinox and Oriflamme are suppressed from further republication and even (so I am informed) re-sale except at eye-watering prices, so threatening do they still seem to be to the status quo of the ‘established Order’ of the ‘O.T.O.’

"Walterfive" wrote:
(besides the interminable poetry of Claudia Canuto).

Well, maybe I could live without those particular ‘Gems’…

"Walterfive" wrote:
This isn't "scapegoating" it is accurately assessing Motta's published legacy 30 years later.

- In your own opinion, of course!

"gurugeorge" wrote:
Totally agree with this assessment.  I was a Probationer in good standing with Motta at the time of his death.  I never associated with S.O.T.O.  I think Motta was a great teacher, probably the best we've had since Crowley himself - and the standing of his students in the current O.T.O. should testify to that.

This is an interesting assessment and testimonial.  I wonder just exactly how widespread this perception is in the Thelemic community as a whole.

"gurugeorge" wrote:
To my mind, the succession passed legitimately through to the Australian guy, but my understanding is that he's either a junky and dead, or just a junky.  He did do some great web-publishing stuff for a while (the text of the trials, a great little essay on practice), but then went silent.

Well, so was Crowley.  A “junky”, I mean.  That unfortunate handicap shouldn’t necessarily discount any other abilities by any means, however.

"gurugeorge" wrote:
Bersson just seems to be mad (although not totally devoid of some insight - he's a bit like that Adi Da type of mystic: goes off on one).

This seems to be rather a positive rather than a negative appraisal taken on the whole, or am I mistaken?

"gurugeorge" wrote:
Shame, Azidonis, that you're not a Motta fan;  I'm normally very simpatico with your comments here.  Hopefully one day you'll change your mind! 🙂

I fear you should not hold your breath on that one, gurugeorge!  (nb, I wrote that before reading the Reply beneath!).  But I tend to agree with your comments here, myself…

Incidentally, I almost joined Motta’s S.O.T.O. in the early 80s, writing to the English “Director” one Jeremy Charles Ellis.  Before a reply could arrive in the post (and a snazzy little S.O.T.O. “calling card” with a coloured OTO lamen on the front and Liber Oz inside) I learned he had been implicated in the matter of the criminal firebombing of the warehouses of Routledge & Kegan Paul, whom Motta had fulminated about ‘pirating’ Crowley, and therefore O.T.O., property.  Sometimes I have a most uneasy feeling that if I had linked up with him several months earlier, in my youthful folly and misguided zeal & indiscretion I may have been talked into & persuaded to assist in some indirect manner this most unthelemic expedient.  JCE went on to imprisonment and to his own Greater Feast not long afterwards, incidentally.  Would anyone know how many “English” members he had in all, at all?  Even any examples of ex-members among Lashtal luminaries, perhaps?

"Azidonis" wrote:
As for his writings, I think at best they show someone attempting to be a motivator and leader, and at worst they show a megalomaniac with many unresolved issues.

I do not see Motta in this light – he tended to disclaim rather than claim. At least in the early days: he originally did not want to be involved with the O.T.O. and ‘took it over’ with reluctance.  In fact he did not even have the hubris to claim that it was in any way the O.T.O. at the time matters were under dispute, and was quite content to, willingly of his own accord, call his recension more modestly “SOTO” until all of these ‘territorial’ matters became resolved – quite unlike all of the other major claimants (i.e., McMurtry, Grant & Metzger.)

"Azidonis" wrote:
I made up my mind some time ago that if Motta is a true and faithful representation of Thelema, then I simply want little to nothing to do with Thelema.

I think you may possibly be a little severe on him here, Az!  What exactly is your main problem with him?  I think, whatever, his heart was basically in the right place.

"Azidonis" wrote:
Add to that, I still haven't made up my mind whether or not I appreciate his commentary on Liber AL,

Well, most people appreciate some parts more than others, and dis/agree accordingly.  Sometimes he is quite profound and inspired in his viewpoint, I feel; at other times he seems frustratingly, and nonsensically, wildly off target.  Always a rather interesting, occasionally rewarding, occasionally tedious, and sometimes fun reading I have found myself, though.

"Walterfive" wrote:
"lashtal" wrote:
"Walterfive" wrote:
I'll certainly give credit where it due-- his Equinox Vol. V Nos. 2, 3 & 4 are still of worth and interest to some of us

I'd agree with that, Walterfive. Some very interesting material there that wasn't available elsewhere at the time of publication. With my bibliophile's hat on, they were handsome productions, too.

Yes sir, they certainly were. "The Gold Equinox" is still absolutely beautiful. I gladly own Vols. 2, 3 & 4. I wish I owned a set of his Oriflamme editions, I really enjoyed Magick Without Tears (Unexpurgated) Parts 1 & 2.

Yes me too (I wish I owned a set of Oriflamme editions).  At the time they were expensive paperbacks; now, incredibly more so – any going nicely priced anywhere, anyone?  A gift of one would be ever so highly appreciated (said he, ever so highly hopeful!).  And yes, I also agree that his Equinoxes were indeed handsome and well artistically & aesthetically crafted, and would give the C.O.T.O. equally a good run for their money at the best.  And at least Motta knew how to number the sequences properly, too: The Equinox should not have even numbered volumes.  These signify Silence in the Speech.  Crowley did not ‘do’ Volume Two.  And the ‘Caliphornians’ should not have done Volume Four.  But they have.

Ribump Ba Bap Dum Dum (sock it to me),
N. Joy


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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21/05/2013 5:53 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
As for the (c)O.T.O. and linkages, I do not know the entire story. But it seems that, as VIII* under McMurtry, and as McMurtry's successor in that particular A:.A:. lineage, then Jerry Cornelius had every right to assume leadership of the (c)O.T.O. upon McMurtry's death.

I can’t quite see the relevance of A.’. A.’. lineage to [C.]O.T.O. succession (although Motta himself did believe this, i.e. that at a high level 8[sup:231wc22x]o[/sup:231wc22x]=3[sup:231wc22x]□[/sup:231wc22x] A.’. A.’. was equivalent to XI[sup:231wc22x]o[/sup:231wc22x] O.T.O.

The discussion on this is not about a paper trail, or a selection of copyrights.

Lineage is about Transmission of the Link. And I think it is provable, that Cornelius had directly received that Transmission, on both A:.A:. and O.T.O. lines, from Grady McMurtry.

"jamie barter" wrote:
"terra_trema" wrote:
I agree that those who were expelled by Motta may be classified as questionable.

Could we just clarify, is it meant here “those” people were questionable on account of their expulsion, or that the act of expulsion was itself questionable?

I'm not responding for terra_trema, but I did make the original "questionable" assertion.

It is known that Motta was a Zelator 2=9 at the time of Germer's death. And upon Germer's death, he supposedly undertook the Oath and Task of Magister Templi. I say this is questionable for, as many have agreed to, at times he did display a type of Mastery. Other times, he displayed a type of neurosis. The latter fact puts Motta's entire claim to 8=3 as "questionable", and thus his Transmission itself as questionable.

"jamie barter" wrote:
"terra_trema" wrote:
But there were those under him who continued.

As in, perhaps, that they did not fall by the wayside?

Perhaps. The Transmission is useful, but not completely necessary. One can verily forge one's own Link. In knowing that, I think that everyone deserves to be judged on their own merits, left to stand or fall as they may.

But, if we are going to get into paper trails and copyrights, that is probably another story. Too bad the lines became so blurred in the last few decades.

"jamie barter" wrote:
"terra_trema" wrote:
It's some of the best thelemic stuff ever written, and many people agree on this.

Note that, after A.C., no one else “in (whatever) authority” has written anything of such quantity (let alone the issue of quality) – certainly not Germer, who wrote hardly anything apart from his concentration camp memoir; nor McMurtry, who (in)famously wrote a few poems; nor Metzger of the Swiss recension.  Even Breeze has only (generally at least capably) edited & contributed towards Introductions, Forewords, etc.  Only Kenneth Grant would appear to be on any comparable level in this regard.

Crowley definitely takes the cake where "Thelemic literature" is concerned. I also think that amount of writing does not supersede quality of writing, and would be hesitant to put anyone's name on the list of "Thelemic writers deserving merit" without a decent personal review of the bulk of each of their writings.

After reading many of Motta's published and unpublished works, I would not agree that Motta is even on par with Crowley where quality of literature is concerned. This has nothing to do with how he wrote, as Crowley was undoubtedly a Master of English, but more along the lines of what he wrote.

"jamie barter" wrote:
"terra_trema" wrote:
It seems totally out of touch to me.

It is all rather a deliciously ironic situation all in all though, for some reason!...
What is it, incidentally, that marks out Motta’s A.’. A.’. credentials as being any more ‘real’ and ‘substantial’ than his alleged (non-)membership of the O.T.O.?

Motta was a Zelator 2=9 when Germer died. That's a 'real' and 'substantial' credential. What he did afterwards is questionable.

Motta was never a member of the O.T.O., despite repeated attempts to be involved with it. One can look at this as a slight against Motta, but one can also look at Germer's record and see just how many people Germer actually allowed into the O.T.O. after Crowley's death. My guess is, it's a very small number, if not zero (fact check appreciated).

"jamie barter" wrote:
"gurugeorge" wrote:
Totally agree with this assessment.  I was a Probationer in good standing with Motta at the time of his death.  I never associated with S.O.T.O.  I think Motta was a great teacher, probably the best we've had since Crowley himself - and the standing of his students in the current O.T.O. should testify to that.

This is an interesting assessment and testimonial.  I wonder just exactly how widespread this perception is in the Thelemic community as a whole.

Would depend on who you ask. But, I do not think that it is a clear-cut situation. For example, stereotyping (c)O.T.O. members as "anti-Motta" and non (c)O.T.O. members as "pro-Motta" is not going to work.

"jamie barter" wrote:
"gurugeorge" wrote:
To my mind, the succession passed legitimately through to the Australian guy, but my understanding is that he's either a junky and dead, or just a junky.  He did do some great web-publishing stuff for a while (the text of the trials, a great little essay on practice), but then went silent.

Well, so was Crowley.  A “junky”, I mean.  That unfortunate handicap shouldn’t necessarily discount any other abilities by any means, however.

It ideally shouldn't, but it could.

"jamie barter" wrote:
"gurugeorge" wrote:
Bersson just seems to be mad (although not totally devoid of some insight - he's a bit like that Adi Da type of mystic: goes off on one).

This seems to be rather a positive rather than a negative appraisal taken on the whole, or am I mistaken?

The day I saw Bersson's list of "failed Probationers" is the last day I was interested in anything Bersson had to say.

"jamie barter" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
As for his writings, I think at best they show someone attempting to be a motivator and leader, and at worst they show a megalomaniac with many unresolved issues.

I do not see Motta in this light – he tended to disclaim rather than claim. At least in the early days: he originally did not want to be involved with the O.T.O. and ‘took it over’ with reluctance.  In fact he did not even have the hubris to claim that it was in any way the O.T.O. at the time matters were under dispute, and was quite content to, willingly of his own accord, call his recension more modestly “SOTO” until all of these ‘territorial’ matters became resolved – quite unlike all of the other major claimants (i.e., McMurtry, Grant & Metzger.)

Um, Motta repeatedly requested Germer to allow him to do something with regards to the O.T.O. He asked Germer repeatedly to allow him to open a chapter in Brazil, for instance. Alas, the most Germer let Motta do in regards to any of that was to help publish Crowley books in Portuguese.

And, when Germer died, Motta took it upon himself to assume "the head" of both A:.A:. and O.T.O. in spite of the facts that 1) Motta was not the senior, nor the highest Grade A:.A:. member, and 2) was never directly allowed any involvement with the O.T.O.

"jamie barter" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
I made up my mind some time ago that if Motta is a true and faithful representation of Thelema, then I simply want little to nothing to do with Thelema.

I think you may possibly be a little severe on him here, Az!  What exactly is your main problem with him?  I think, whatever, his heart was basically in the right place.

His heart, maybe. His ego, no.

"jamie barter" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
Add to that, I still haven't made up my mind whether or not I appreciate his commentary on Liber AL,

Well, most people appreciate some parts more than others, and dis/agree accordingly.  Sometimes he is quite profound and inspired in his viewpoint, I feel; at other times he seems frustratingly, and nonsensically, wildly off target.  Always a rather interesting, occasionally rewarding, occasionally tedious, and sometimes fun reading I have found myself, though.

Well, we could get into specifics about his various commentary remarks, but I really do not want to tread down that alley.

The fact that he saw fit to make a commentary at all is what I question. He was at pains to take up the mantle as "Beast", and his commentary on AL is more than proof of that (not to mention letters of him stating as much).


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
21/05/2013 6:32 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
Could we just clarify, is it meant here “those” people were questionable on account of their expulsion, or that the act of expulsion was itself questionable?

The former is what I meant to say. Some weren't even expelled, but quit on their own account.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5200
21/05/2013 8:20 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
Could you possibly confirm, if known, the details of this letter specifically, i.e., written to whom and when, whether there is a photocopy and where the original might be.

It was in a letter I read in 1968 (among OTO archives appropriated by Solar Lodge). The letter was probably to McMurtry or Achad, but it could have been to anyone. What I'm saying is, it was well over 40 years ago, and I can't remember who. What I do remember is what was written.

"jamie barter" wrote:
Don’t quite follow the wording here.  Do you mean O.T.O. initiates – in which case, the sentence is self-contradictory; or other initiates, in which case could you specify, if known, which ‘tradition’ they were initiated in?

I am speaking of several Solar Lodge initiates. Now that Lodge utilized the initiatory rites of the OTO, and was instructed to do so by Ray Burlingame, Frater Aquarius, IX[sup:3fkpxb14]o[/sup:3fkpxb14] OTO - at a time when no Baphomet was alive. There was a Grant in Britain and somebody in Swisslandia, but we had no knowledge of those folk. However, the current OTO has decided that Solar Lodge was not a true member of OTO, because Aquarius didn't have a written charter. Who would he have gotten it from?

Since we all know that temporal masonry and Oriental Templarism require a written charter, I chose to agree with H. Beta. This entire scenario is written in the plainest language in both versions of Inside Solar Lodge. As you have indicated that you have not read this/these books, please PM me with an offsite email address and I will be pleased to send you a pdf of the specific written words.

"jamie barter" wrote:
King did not have access to a copy of IX[sup:3fkpxb14]o[/sup:3fkpxb14] Emblems and Modes of Use at the time of publication, although I believe it was known to him.

At that time, the possession of Emblems was de facto proof of one having taken the IX[sup:3fkpxb14]o[/sup:3fkpxb14]. There was, in fact, a rite for this grade. It was non-sexual, and was bestowed (apparently) by Jane Wolfe upon Frater Aquarius, and thence it was used in Solar Lodge. This is also covered in Inside Solar Lodge.

With the invention of the www, somebody leaked Emblems, and today it is (and has been) available on the internet, so any de facto proof is now obviously abrogate.

"terra_trema" wrote:
But there were those under him who continued.

Motta left a will and it specified "transmission" or "succession" to three people, but ONLY if they could agree (on how to get along). They disagreed, of course, and so the will became null and void.

Thus, as is historically seen as a precedent, the Motta lineage fragmented, and lines are still extant today.

Several of Motta's students gravitated to McMurtry and are now seen amongst the higher/highest ranks of the legally-reconized OTO


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5200
21/05/2013 8:33 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
One can verily forge one's own Link. In knowing that, I think that everyone deserves to be judged on their own merits, left to stand or fall as they may.

You are referring to the "sink or swim" school of thought. This concept supercedes all pilosophies and lineages, and everyone is subject to it.

"Azidonis" wrote:
But, if we are going to get into paper trails and copyrights, that is probably another story. Too bad the lines became so blurred in the last few decades.

Why is it "too bad?" This is the Aeon of Horus, wherein the individual is supreme. Somebody once wrote to AC in his later years, suggesting that a group be formed. AC replied that if they (the writer) had known of his (AC's) experience with groups, they would never suggest such a thing.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
21/05/2013 10:44 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
One can verily forge one's own Link. In knowing that, I think that everyone deserves to be judged on their own merits, left to stand or fall as they may.

You are referring to the "sink or swim" school of thought. This concept supercedes all pilosophies and lineages, and everyone is subject to it.

Yes. Each one takes their own turn standing on the Scales of Thoth in the Hall of Judgment.

"Shiva" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
But, if we are going to get into paper trails and copyrights, that is probably another story. Too bad the lines became so blurred in the last few decades.

Why is it "too bad?" This is the Aeon of Horus, wherein the individual is supreme. Somebody once wrote to AC in his later years, suggesting that a group be formed. AC replied that if they (the writer) had known of his (AC's) experience with groups, they would never suggest such a thing.

"Too bad," as in, it's a large muddle, and sorting it all can be a pain in the ass. Just saying it is more of a debacle than a set of organized efforts, with all of the loose information about.

Ah, Chaos!


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jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 1688
22/05/2013 3:28 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
As for the (c)O.T.O. and linkages, I do not know the entire story. But it seems that, as VIII* under McMurtry, and as McMurtry's successor in that particular A:.A:. lineage, then Jerry Cornelius had every right to assume leadership of the (c)O.T.O. upon McMurtry's death.

I can’t quite see the relevance of A.’. A.’. lineage to [C.]O.T.O. succession (although Motta himself did believe this, i.e. that at a high level 8[sup:w2nt6p4p]o[/sup:w2nt6p4p]=3[sup:w2nt6p4p]□[/sup:w2nt6p4p] A.’. A.’. was equivalent to XI[sup:w2nt6p4p]o[/sup:w2nt6p4p] O.T.O.

The discussion on this is not about a paper trail, or a selection of copyrights.

Lineage is about Transmission of the Link. And I think it is provable, that Cornelius had directly received that Transmission, on both A:.A:. and O.T.O. lines, from Grady McMurtry.

Yes I agree with this but cannot see above why e.g. if Jerry Cornelius was McMurtry’s succession (I don’t know enough about it to say whether rightly so or not, but the evidence appears to bear this out) that would then be amply sufficient (“every right”) for him to therefore “assume leadership of the [c]O.T.O”.  But if one takes this as ‘in order’, then Motta would surely have qualified similarly so?

"Azidonis" wrote:
Other times, he displayed a type of neurosis. The latter fact puts Motta's entire claim to 8=3 as "questionable", and thus his Transmission itself as questionable.

Are you stating that 8[sup:w2nt6p4p]o[/sup:w2nt6p4p]=3[sup:w2nt6p4p]□[/sup:w2nt6p4p]s have so perfected their personality in the Ruach that they cannot display any signs of mortal neurosis at all?  In effect stating that since Crowley was an M.T. from c. 1906-7 onwards, he couldn’t ever have had a ‘beastly’ (small b) personality?  If so I’m sure some might possibly disagree…!

"Azidonis" wrote:
But, if we are going to get into paper trails and copyrights, that is probably another story. Too bad the lines became so blurred in the last few decades.

Was it not ever thus, though?!

"Azidonis" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
"terra_trema" wrote:
It seems totally out of touch to me.

It is all rather a deliciously ironic situation all in all though, for some reason!...
What is it, incidentally, that marks out Motta’s A.’. A.’. credentials as being any more ‘real’ and ‘substantial’ than his alleged (non-)membership of the O.T.O.?

Motta was a Zelator 2=9 when Germer died. That's a 'real' and 'substantial' credential. What he did afterwards is questionable.

The point I was getting at here, though, was more that the C.O.T.O.’s hierarchy appear to venerate him (Motta) as the highest advanced member within the A.’. A.’. gradings for some reason – but where is the substantial and real proof for the empirical validity of this conception?  Or is it as illusory in effect as the similar controversy over whether he was actually a member or not of the O.T.O.?

"Azidonis" wrote:
Motta was never a member of the O.T.O., despite repeated attempts to be involved with it.

But not by consciously attempting to be involved, pre the mid 70s: given the choice by Saturnus (Karl Germer) of the A.’. A.’. or the O.T.O., Adjuvo (Motta) chose the former despite the fact he would have been aware that on the material plane the Crowley copyrights would pass to the latter.
We cannot say for sure he was never a member of the O.T.O.; he may have been informally admitted (in the same way that John Symonds was meant to have been?).  As was remarked earlier, A.C. never ‘formally’ initiated anyone in a ‘temple’ context and Germer would probably have followed his example with his favourite pupil/ chela.  Germer in fact was so disillusioned with the Caliphornian Agape Lodge (the spiritual forerunner of the C.O.T.O.) that he closed it down altogether & declared the embryonic COTO community under McMurtry & others to be a “spiritual desert”, with McMurtry himself as “a great MINUS”.  This was why he never ratified/ ‘rubber stamped’ A.C.’s two letters of emergency authorisation to McMurtry to activate the same.  I cannot recall him (Germer) ‘allowing’ any new people into the O.T.O. who were not already connected in some way between when he took over in 1947 and when he shut Agape Lodge down, in 1951.  Whether he admitted anyone (other than the North Americans) into the Crowley O.T.O. (after) is another matter, and, although my research is presently stowed in boxes, I am not aware that is “greater than zero” numbers!  Perhaps someone else may present further evidence to the contrary.

"Azidonis" wrote:
But, I do not think that it is a clear-cut situation. For example, stereotyping (c)O.T.O. members as "anti-Motta" and non (c)O.T.O. members as "pro-Motta" is not going to work.

No I am sure it is not as “clear cut” as this.  There is also the fact that at least some of the C.O.T.O. is top-heavy with Motta A.’. A.’..  I wonder how they can reconcile that with the legal action against him taken in the 80s, particularly given that one is not meant to sue or take mundane legal action against a brother in either order…

"Azidonis" wrote:
Um, Motta repeatedly requested Germer to allow him to do something with regards to the O.T.O. He asked Germer repeatedly to allow him to open a chapter in Brazil, for instance. Alas, the most Germer let Motta do in regards to any of that was to help publish Crowley books in Portuguese.

This is not the case.  Motta was closely involved with Germer in the English language first publications of Liber Aleph and Magick Without Tears, with more planned to follow until the death of Germer.  That was under A.’. A.’. auspices however, not O.T.O.  Also I am not aware of “repeated requestings” in this matter – although may be mistaken – could you please provide specific instances?  (And any instances against that, if anyone would be so kind!  I think it is best if we try to be as balanced as possible under the circumstances!)

"Azidonis" wrote:
And, when Germer died, Motta took it upon himself to assume "the head" of both A:.A:. and O.T.O. in spite of the facts that 1) Motta was not the senior, nor the highest Grade A:.A:. member, and 2) was never directly allowed any involvement with the O.T.O.

Motta did not take it “upon himself to assume headship of the O.T.O.” – that I am quite certain of and this can be backed up by proof.  If absolutely necessary I can try to dig it out myself but I’m sure some other Lashtalian may be able to provide corroborating evidence.  Like Germer did himself, Motta saw himself in the role of caretaker / custodian of the O.T.O. in the hope that someone more qualified would turn up.  He initially favoured Grant for the job until he found out Germer had sent him the ’55 letter of expulsion.
I am less sure about the A.’. A.’. allegation, but again, I’m sure someone else could possibly kindly oblige…

"Azidonis" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
I made up my mind some time ago that if Motta is a true and faithful representation of Thelema, then I simply want little to nothing to do with Thelema.

I think you may possibly be a little severe on him here, Az!  What exactly is your main problem with him?  I think, whatever, his heart was basically in the right place.

His heart, maybe. His ego, no.

Like Crowley and some others (who is so guilt free here they are going to cast the first stone?) it seems in some respects Motta could have done with some more work/ therapy on his personality vehicle.  But the fact that his heart – arguably his intentionality & true will – was in the right place surely counts for as much if not more in the final reckoning.

"Azidonis" wrote:
Well, we could get into specifics about his various commentary remarks, but I really do not want to tread down that alley.

Agreed.  That would unnecessarily plump out the thread to get bogged down in the wrong sort of specifics for here. 

"Azidonis" wrote:
The fact that he saw fit to make a commentary at all is what I question.

Basically he saw it as the correct thing to do – following his true will, if you will – rightly or wrongly in the capacity of Germer’s spiritual successor with the A.’. A.’.. 

"Azidonis" wrote:
He was at pains to take up the mantle as "Beast", and his commentary on AL is more than proof of that (not to mention letters of him stating as much).

I think he viewed the title the “Beast” as a title of office, and saw ‘Scarlet Woman’ similarly.  Doubtless debate will rage over the propriety of the same and, if you agree with the fact they are ‘offices’, then you will also have to accept that people need, or will claim, to fill such offices.

"terra_trema" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
Could we just clarify, is it meant here “those” people were questionable on account of their expulsion, or that the act of expulsion was itself questionable?

The former is what I meant to say. Some weren't even expelled, but quit on their own account.

Many thanks for the clarification!

"Shiva" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
Could you possibly confirm, if known, the details of this letter specifically, i.e., written to whom and when, whether there is a photocopy and where the original might be.

It was in a letter I read in 1968 (among OTO archives appropriated by Solar Lodge). The letter was probably to McMurtry or Achad, but it could have been to anyone. What I'm saying is, it was well over 40 years ago, and I can't remember who. What I do remember is what was written.

Thank you for your response.
I don’t suppose you would have a photographic memory, by any chance, and can recall its contents verbatim aftre 40 years? (he asked hopefully).  But it sounds an interesting item to try to get hold of, somewhere….

"Shiva" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
Don’t quite follow the wording here.  Do you mean O.T.O. initiates – in which case, the sentence is self-contradictory; or other initiates, in which case could you specify, if known, which ‘tradition’ they were initiated in?

I am speaking of several Solar Lodge initiates. Now that Lodge utilized the initiatory rites of the OTO, and was instructed to do so by Ray Burlingame, Frater Aquarius, IX[sup:w2nt6p4p]o[/sup:w2nt6p4p] OTO - at a time when no Baphomet was alive. There was a Grant in Britain and somebody in Swisslandia, but we had no knowledge of those folk. However, the current OTO has decided that Solar Lodge was not a true member of OTO, because Aquarius didn't have a written charter. Who would he have gotten it from?

I think, on present knowledge, Solar Lodge made a good stab at things in the absence of regular access to anything like a superior person or lodge, and such positive achievements as they managed to attain have not, unfairly, been recognised as such in the past.  (Of course, I don’t know where all the skellingtons are as yet!)

"Shiva" wrote:
Since we all know that temporal masonry and Oriental Templarism require a written charter, I chose to agree with H. Beta. This entire scenario is written in the plainest language in both versions of Inside Solar Lodge. As you have indicated that you have not read this/these books, please PM me with an offsite email address and I will be pleased to send you a pdf of the specific written words.

Thank you for the most generous offer, which I will do in due course, although I am going to be rather busy in the next week or so with a family matter which will delay my giving it any great attention yet.

"Shiva" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
King did not have access to a copy of IX[sup:w2nt6p4p]o[/sup:w2nt6p4p] Emblems and Modes of Use at the time of publication, although I believe it was known to him.

At that time, the possession of Emblems was de facto proof of one having taken the IX[sup:w2nt6p4p]o[/sup:w2nt6p4p]. There was, in fact, a rite for this grade. It was non-sexual, and was bestowed (apparently) by Jane Wolfe upon Frater Aquarius, and thence it was used in Solar Lodge. This is also covered in Inside Solar Lodge.

With the invention of the www, somebody leaked Emblems, and today it is (and has been) available on the internet, so any de facto proof is now obviously abrogate.

Yes, I came across this too - that possession of it makes one a IX[sup:w2nt6p4p]o[/sup:w2nt6p4p].  (In fact, Gregory von Seewald told me this story about it when he kindly sent over a copy in 199- whenever it was.)

"Shiva" wrote:
"terra_trema" wrote:
But there were those under him who continued.

Motta left a will and it specified "transmission" or "succession" to three people, but ONLY if they could agree (on how to get along). They disagreed, of course, and so the will became null and void.

Thus, as is historically seen as a precedent, the Motta lineage fragmented, and lines are still extant today.

Yes, I always thought that was screamingly funny & very predictive of human nature on Marcello’s part!  Still will have left a bit of confusion for someone else [in SOTO] to sort out, of course ("it's a dirty job but someone's got to do it" !!)

"Azidonis" wrote:
"Shiva" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
One can verily forge one's own Link. In knowing that, I think that everyone deserves to be judged on their own merits, left to stand or fall as they may.

You are referring to the "sink or swim" school of thought. This concept supercedes all pilosophies and lineages, and everyone is subject to it.

Yes. Each one takes their own turn standing on the Scales of Thoth in the Hall of Judgment.

Can’t think of a funny tag at the moment, but
N. Joy


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the_real_simon_iff
(@the_real_simon_iff)
Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 1836
22/05/2013 3:53 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
if Jerry Cornelius was McMurtry’s succession (I don’t know enough about it to say whether rightly so or not, but the evidence appears to bear this out) that would then be amply sufficient (“every right”) for him to therefore “assume leadership of the [c]O.T.O”.  But if one takes this as ‘in order’, then Motta would surely have qualified similarly so?

93!

If I remember it correctly there is/was a specific modus operandi how the OHO was to be elected after MsMurtry's death. The office could not be "inherited". While Jerry surely succeeded McMurtry in the A.:.A.:., the OHO of the OTO was to be elected as was willed by McMurtry: "It is my desire that the Order's Supreme Council elect the successor Caliph for the Ordo Templi Orientis." So nothing fishy there as far as I see it...

Love=Law
Lutz


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jamie barter
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Member
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 1688
22/05/2013 4:17 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
"Shiva" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
One can verily forge one's own Link. In knowing that, I think that everyone deserves to be judged on their own merits, left to stand or fall as they may.

You are referring to the "sink or swim" school of thought. This concept supercedes all pilosophies and lineages, and everyone is subject to it.

Yes. Each one takes their own turn standing on the Scales of Thoth in the Hall of Judgment.

Can’t think of a funny tag at the moment, but
N. Joy

Sorry, this wasn’t intended to be any sort of gnomic humour at the end – I meant to have added “Amen to that!” after Azidonis’s contribution there….!  (Still do not know how to ‘edit’, unfortunately...)

"the_real_simon_iff" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
if Jerry Cornelius was McMurtry’s succession (I don’t know enough about it to say whether rightly so or not, but the evidence appears to bear this out) that would then be amply sufficient (“every right”) for him to therefore “assume leadership of the [c]O.T.O”.  But if one takes this as ‘in order’, then Motta would surely have qualified similarly so?

93!

If I remember it correctly there is/was a specific modus operandi how the OHO was to be elected after MsMurtry's death. The office could not be "inherited". While Jerry surely succeeded McMurtry in the A.:.A.:., the OHO of the OTO was to be elected as was willed by McMurtry: "It is my desire that the Order's Supreme Council elect the successor Caliph for the Ordo Templi Orientis." So nothing fishy there as far as I see it...

Love=Law
Lutz

93 93/93!  Therefore it appears there is no automatic right of, say, the head (or "a" head) of the A.'. A.'. to be the head of the O.T.O., and that the O.T.O. at all times have their own constitutional process separate from the A.'. A.'..  That was more or less what I had thought all along, btw.  Can't quite see what all the fuss (or fish) is about, then!

Clarifyingly yours,
N. Joy


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5200
22/05/2013 4:21 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
Yes I agree with this but cannot see above why e.g. if Jerry Cornelius was McMurtry’s succession (I don’t know enough about it to say whether rightly so or not, but the evidence appears to bear this out) that would then be amply sufficient (“every right”) for him to therefore “assume leadership of the [c]O.T.O”.

Jerry told his own version, about slippng in and out of grace and interest in (support of) OTO under H Beta. In the end, he said, "It's the same OTO that I know." It's all spelled out somewhere within his website.

"jamie barter" wrote:
But if one takes this as ‘in order’, then Motta would surely have qualified similarly so?

Motta was never an OTO member of any kind. This is pretty much universally recgnized, and no evidence is extant showing a link, other than an interest. OTO is a paper-trail org. I know - I am recognized in certain circles as a former co-founder and  member of a roque, clandestine gang.  8)

He just picked up some wreckage and called it (S)OTO. McMurtry IX*, with a handwritten note (charter) from AC, actually held a "paper trail" that was recognized by the Establisment. At Grady's death, Jerry was (I believe) only VIII* - there were a few IX* around. They, in a council, met to pick the next frater superior. And they picked the guy who is currently in charge.

As for "transmission" as opposed to "paper trail," that doesn't matter in OTO because it's a TEMPORAL paper-trail Order! There is no evidence that their is a spiritual transference, except as reported in Inside Solar Lodge, and that story is upheld by a few and decried as blasphemy by many.  ;D

Of course, the true tale of initiation and high adventure speaks of an A.'.A.'. transmission, with the OTO simply being the tent flaps of the current.

"jamie barter" wrote:
Yes I wonder how they can reconcile that with the legal action against him taken in the 80s, particularly given that one is not meant to sue or take mundane legal action against a brother in either order…

Oh those were just silly rules that nobody paid attention to. It's simple. It's medeival. you go to war with that other Duke's army, and your side (Motta) is getting trounced on the battlefied with a note [what a talisman, eh?], or you get expelled because you're a secret assassin. Many of your comrades are dead, dying,  maimed or psychotic. You seem to be intact. You're more interested in the game than in the personalities. Okay, let's go over and see if Duke McMurtry is recruiting.

"jamie barter" wrote:
Motta did not take it “upon himself to assume headship of the O.T.O.”

Well, he offered me the directorship of the OTO (not SOTO) in California, in writing, and since nobody gave him a charter then the term "took it upon himself" is correct (regardless of his intent or self-appointed caretakership image)

"jamie barter" wrote:
Yes (Of course, I don’t know where all the skellingtons are as yet!)

They were all displayed in the second edition (ISL - Behind the Veil). That was the purpose of this specific edition. To drag every last piece of spiritual garbage out of the landfill and put it on display in a textual museum.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/05/2013 4:24 pm  

Motta was introduced to the Agape Lodge members by Germer as an OTO member in the 50s e.v.
But of course earlier in this thread I also "learned" Germer was no OTO member.
Maybe OTO membership in AC's days was something much more amorphous and non-strict than most people here can imagine.

"In late 1956 e.v. Mr. Germer asked Motta to go visit him personally. Mr. Germer, who had been separated from Mrs. Germer for several years now, was living in the house of Ero Sivohnen, a Brother, in Barstow, California. Motta went to Barstow and there Mr. Germer unexpectedly initiated him in the IX° O.T.O. and gave him all the O.T.O. Rituals and secret manuscripts to read. He also gave Motta to read the integral text of the O.T.O. Constitution as reformulated by Crowley (only part of this had been published in Equinox III 1, the "Blue Equinox" so called)." --Intelligence Services are NOT intelligent


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/05/2013 5:15 pm  

Let me elaborate on that--
I am not arguing if Motta was OHO or not, since frankly I don't really care. BUT to say neither Motta NOR Germer (as insinuated in reply #3 in this thread) were OTO members is really ignoring a lot of evidence.
--Germer. If he never was a member, why were the famous Caliphate letters "subject to the approval of Frater Saturnus, Karl Germer"?
--Motta. If he never was a member, then why was Germer prepared to send him a charter to work the lower triade (if he did send it or not is not the question here, but why would he offer to send it to a non-member)?


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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Posts: 2964
22/05/2013 6:56 pm  

I'm trimming some of the "bloat" (extra quotes, etc.), but anyway...

"jamie barter" wrote:
I can’t quite see the relevance of A.’. A.’. lineage to [C.]O.T.O. succession (although Motta himself did believe this, i.e. that at a high level 8[sup:196xr5qh]o[/sup:196xr5qh]=3[sup:196xr5qh]□[/sup:196xr5qh] A.’. A.’. was equivalent to XI[sup:196xr5qh]o[/sup:196xr5qh] O.T.O.

Did Crowley say this as well? Or just Motta?

"jamie barter" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
Other times, he displayed a type of neurosis. The latter fact puts Motta's entire claim to 8=3 as "questionable", and thus his Transmission itself as questionable.

Are you stating that 8[sup:196xr5qh]o[/sup:196xr5qh]=3[sup:196xr5qh]□[/sup:196xr5qh]s have so perfected their personality in the Ruach that they cannot display any signs of mortal neurosis at all?  In effect stating that since Crowley was an M.T. from c. 1906-7 onwards, he couldn’t ever have had a ‘beastly’ (small b) personality?  If so I’m sure some might possibly disagree…!

Neurosis. Not just a few personality quirks.

"jamie barter" wrote:
The point I was getting at here, though, was more that the C.O.T.O.’s hierarchy appear to venerate him (Motta) as the highest advanced member within the A.’. A.’. gradings for some reason – but where is the substantial and real proof for the empirical validity of this conception?  Or is it as illusory in effect as the similar controversy over whether he was actually a member or not of the O.T.O.?

Motta was not the highest Grade A:.A:. member when Germer died. As far as I know, he was a 2=9 when Germer died, which was not the highest Grade at the time.

"jamie barter" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
The fact that he saw fit to make a commentary at all is what I question.

Basically he saw it as the correct thing to do – following his true will, if you will – rightly or wrongly in the capacity of Germer’s spiritual successor with the A.’. A.’..

No. For one, he pretty much directly disobeyed the Tunis Comment. Even so, I'm willing to say his commentary was more along the lines of wanting to be "the Beast", which is but a symptom of his neurosis.

"jamie barter" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
He was at pains to take up the mantle as "Beast", and his commentary on AL is more than proof of that (not to mention letters of him stating as much).

I think he viewed the title the “Beast” as a title of office, and saw ‘Scarlet Woman’ similarly.  Doubtless debate will rage over the propriety of the same and, if you agree with the fact they are ‘offices’, then you will also have to accept that people need, or will claim, to fill such offices.

"I confess candidly that I have great doubts whether I am really the Beast or not; the climax of my ritual work last year led me to an intuitive certainty of this; but I certainly may have been quite wrong; it is such an ego-satisfying feeling, and therefore one can easily deceive oneself." - Motta to Germer, Dec. 30, 1961

"If one tried to go into or refuting or arguing your recent letters one would run the risk of getting contaminated by the demonic forces that have got hold of you. What I will do is give you the benefit of my experience. It has been my privilege or misfortune to have to watch at least a score of "experts of delusion" in the last more than thirty-five years, of my connection with Thelema.

What you claim - the title or grade of BEAST - is only minor, ie. a repeat of another title. (Yet Crowley assumed the grade only 13 years after he had become a full M.T., while you are at best a Neophyte!" - Germer to Motta, June 9, 1962

And, of course, Motta would even admit to his own confusion.

You are free to interpret this in any way you want... just like people are free to run around thinking they are reincarnations of Crowley, or 9=2, or anything else their hearts may desire.

However, I would posit that both the "Office" and the "Grade" of "Beast" are reserved for those holding the Grade of Magus, 9=2.

Also, I posit that, as we can see such seeds in Motta of wanting that Great and Terrible Mantle, we can also see the fruits of it in his publication of a commentary to Liber L.

Surely you have gone over these many times. Surely you are also privy to some information that I am not, and I would suspect that the opposite is also true.

If I have edited out something that you really want to touch on, feel free to bring it back up.


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gurugeorge
(@gurugeorge)
Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 456
22/05/2013 8:03 pm  
"terra_trema" wrote:
Let me elaborate on that--
I am not arguing if Motta was OHO or not, since frankly I don't really care. BUT to say neither Motta NOR Germer (as insinuated in reply #3 in this thread) were OTO members is really ignoring a lot of evidence.
--Germer. If he never was a member, why were the famous Caliphate letters "subject to the approval of Frater Saturnus, Karl Germer"?

Yes - and if we're going by paper trails, that approval was never given.

"terra_trema" wrote:
--Motta. If he never was a member, then why was Germer prepared to send him a charter to work the lower triade (if he did send it or not is not the question here, but why would he offer to send it to a non-member)?

Indeed.  My memory is a bit fuzzy on this, but I seem to recall that a charter was indeed sent, but Motta didn't get it (along with some other missing correspondence between Germer and him - this was what led to a period when Motta thought Germer had been angry with him and cut contact).  There is reasonable proof that a charter was sent in Sascha's words in a letter somewhere (again, I can't recall the details, long time since I've looked at this stuff).  And subsequently Motta learnt from an ex-colleague from his military school that there had been a period during the Revolution when Motta had been under surveillance and his mail kept.

People sometimes think Motta was paranoid.  I used to think that myself as well, until I read one of the editions of the Oriflamme (I think it was) where Motta had gotten hold of some old FBI files (under some legal process, I can't remember the name of it - all countries have it, when formerly secret government files from a reasonable time limit in the past can be accessed by the public, albeit they may still have stuff struck out).  Those files showed conclusively that Karl Germer was under surveillance at the direct insistence (and I mean insistence) of J. Edgar Hoover himself (Hoover's exact words were that this matter should be given "preferred and expeditious treatment") - and not only that, again at the insistence of Hoover, FBI agents made trouble for the Germers to the extent of spreading rumours in a way that made it impossible for Sascha to teach piano and earn a living.  It's the reason why they had to move from someplace to someplace else (ack, memory!).

Couple that with the conditions of Brazil at the time, and Motta's position as a semi-"posh" Brazilian educated in a military academy, a lot of his "paranoid" claims are within the bounds of reasonableness (except the JFK thing - that's possibly going a bit too far 🙂 ).

To me it seems that if one is a stickler for the paper trail, then McMurtry's "Caliph" claim was void (since it wasn't ratified by Saturnus). 

On the other hand, if you're going by normal human relations and/or spiritual dong-size, Motta was obviously the person everyone should have rallied around.  He was clearly the person Germer thought most of, right up until his death; and the fact that Sascha said Germer had said on his death-bed that Motta was "the Follower" when she was at the time a hostile witness, ought to have been enough (regardless of what one thinks "Follower" might precisely have meant - it meant at least that Germer thought of Motta as his spiritual successsor).  I mean jeez, you're talking about a distraught old lady, who doesn't like Motta, who is nevertheless reporting the last, dying words of her husband.  Where's the human sympathy?  You'd think that would be enough, for people who loved Crowley and loved Germer, and all they stood for spiritually.

In the larger picture, it strikes me that Motta became disliked because the general vibe of Crowley people at the time was sort of hippyish, and here was someone coming along barking orders, wanting to get them to get organized, be disciplined, etc.  Yikes!  Let me take another hit of this bong, man ...

It's really, really sad, the whole debacle, from Crowley's unclear handling of legal matters on.  Generally speaking, it's the dismal spectacle of a bunch of people who "couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery" fumbling about and getting in each others' way (no doubt aided and abetted by "Intelligence" services here and there).  Everyone bears some measure of blame, IMHO.

But then, on the other hand, one wants to believe that it was all for the best in the end.  Maybe it's more in keeping with the spirit of the Aeon that progress should be largely individual. 

But then on the other hand, what if there is another great disaster to civilization?  It's precisely the type of semi-secret organization like the O.T.O. that could have retained some sort of coherence in that situation - had they been disciplined, as Motta would have disciplined them.

But then, on the other hand (how many hands is that? 🙂 ), one can't really blame anyone.  You've got to suppose that most people involved were doing their best by their lights, and within their capabilities.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/05/2013 9:36 pm  
"gurugeorge" wrote:
Indeed.  My memory is a bit fuzzy on this, but I seem to recall that a charter was indeed sent, but Motta didn't get it (along with some other missing correspondence between Germer and him - this was what led to a period when Motta thought Germer had been angry with him and cut contact).  There is reasonable proof that a charter was sent in Sascha's words in a letter somewhere (again, I can't recall the details, long time since I've looked at this stuff). 

The proof of the charter at least being offered is in a letter which was used as a piece of evidence in court. It is a letter Germer sent Motta.

The original of the letter was on official O.T.O. paper.

    "West Point, California
    April 20,1962 e.v.

    Care Frater Adjuvo:

    Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

    Your several contradictory letters concerning the O.T.O. I now see that you have seriously decided that it is imperative that a Lodge should be instituted in Brasil, and I agree with you that much could come out of this.

    I am prepared to give you a Charter for a Lodge to work only the first three Degrees. I gave you many of the Rituals at one time or another. Please state exactly which Rituals you have copies of. Are they complete?

    The important thing is that you yourself have a full understanding of the meaning and purport of these Rituals. They must not be read to the candidate in a slipshod way, they should be imparted in a concentrated, ceremonial, dramatic manner, so that the candidate feels an awe and will be under its magick. Much of what I saw in Los Angeles was disgusting. I must say for Smith that, if he was in the right mood, he was almost - so I have heard - inspired.

    I do not agree that you should remain outside, apart from this Work; and then pass promising candidates on to me. If we get that far, I shall give you the following rituals, for you to continue. But you are to figure as the Grand Master of the Lodge.

    (You can work The Order of Thelemites separately at the same time. But it seems that is too early yet.)

    One important point is to state in the beginning that the Lodge you start under my Charter in Brasil is based on the acceptance of the Law of Thelema. And don't mix up 666 with O.T.O. The Head of O.T.O. is Baphomet. Also, the Ecclesia Gnosticae Catholicae Canon Missae is an O.T.O. document. (See Blue Eqx.)

    Candidates, in my opinion, ought to be encouraged to study and get deeply acquainted with thelemic work and literature. But O.T.O. work is, so far as I see, training towards mastery of the ultimate of its secrets.

    Write me soon about these points raised, and if we are clear, I will send you a Charter, and whatever documents you need, such as the first Rituals.

    Love is the law, love under will.

    Fraternally,
    Karl Germer, X° O.T.O."

This, to me, proves without a doubt that Motta was an OTO member under Germer.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
22/05/2013 9:57 pm  
"terra_trema" wrote:
"gurugeorge" wrote:
Indeed.  My memory is a bit fuzzy on this, but I seem to recall that a charter was indeed sent, but Motta didn't get it (along with some other missing correspondence between Germer and him - this was what led to a period when Motta thought Germer had been angry with him and cut contact).  There is reasonable proof that a charter was sent in Sascha's words in a letter somewhere (again, I can't recall the details, long time since I've looked at this stuff). 

The proof of the charter at least being offered is in a letter which was used as a piece of evidence in court. It is a letter Germer sent Motta.

The original of the letter was on official O.T.O. paper.

    "West Point, California
    April 20,1962 e.v.

    Care Frater Adjuvo:

    Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

    Your several contradictory letters concerning the O.T.O. I now see that you have seriously decided that it is imperative that a Lodge should be instituted in Brasil, and I agree with you that much could come out of this.

    I am prepared to give you a Charter for a Lodge to work only the first three Degrees. I gave you many of the Rituals at one time or another. Please state exactly which Rituals you have copies of. Are they complete?

    The important thing is that you yourself have a full understanding of the meaning and purport of these Rituals. They must not be read to the candidate in a slipshod way, they should be imparted in a concentrated, ceremonial, dramatic manner, so that the candidate feels an awe and will be under its magick. Much of what I saw in Los Angeles was disgusting. I must say for Smith that, if he was in the right mood, he was almost - so I have heard - inspired.

    I do not agree that you should remain outside, apart from this Work; and then pass promising candidates on to me. If we get that far, I shall give you the following rituals, for you to continue. But you are to figure as the Grand Master of the Lodge.

    (You can work The Order of Thelemites separately at the same time. But it seems that is too early yet.)

    One important point is to state in the beginning that the Lodge you start under my Charter in Brasil is based on the acceptance of the Law of Thelema. And don't mix up 666 with O.T.O. The Head of O.T.O. is Baphomet. Also, the Ecclesia Gnosticae Catholicae Canon Missae is an O.T.O. document. (See Blue Eqx.)

    Candidates, in my opinion, ought to be encouraged to study and get deeply acquainted with thelemic work and literature. But O.T.O. work is, so far as I see, training towards mastery of the ultimate of its secrets.

    Write me soon about these points raised, and if we are clear, I will send you a Charter, and whatever documents you need, such as the first Rituals.

    Love is the law, love under will.

    Fraternally,
    Karl Germer, X° O.T.O."

This, to me, proves without a doubt that Motta was an OTO member under Germer.

[Emphasis added.]

When researching this and the available documents leading up to it years ago, I recall the distinct impression that this letter wasn't written easily... that Germer didn't really want to write it, and Motta had to convince him to do so. Could be wrong (been wrong before), but that was the impression (and that's when I liked Motta!).


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4087
23/05/2013 12:30 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
When researching this and the available documents leading up to it years ago, I recall the distinct impression that this letter wasn't written easily... that Germer didn't really want to write it, and Motta had to convince him to do so. Could be wrong (been wrong before), but that was the impression (and that's when I liked Motta!).

I don't have that impression at all. Germer seems to have been autocratic and strongly willed enough to have known his own mind and to have said so. Indeed, some of his remarks to Motta were very intemperate. I doubt that he felt under any compulsion in this matter, or was reluctant.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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Posts: 2964
23/05/2013 1:30 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
When researching this and the available documents leading up to it years ago, I recall the distinct impression that this letter wasn't written easily... that Germer didn't really want to write it, and Motta had to convince him to do so. Could be wrong (been wrong before), but that was the impression (and that's when I liked Motta!).

I don't have that impression at all. Germer seems to have been autocratic and strongly willed enough to have known his own mind and to have said so. Indeed, some of his remarks to Motta were very intemperate. I doubt that he felt under any compulsion in this matter, or was reluctant.

Maybe Motta convinced him? Gemer said, "I now see", inferring that he didn't see before. Perhaps he just blew Motta off previously, as another rant like he seemed to do.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4087
23/05/2013 1:44 pm  

Yes, but "Motta convinced him" is not exactly "Germer didn't really want to write it", is it? Germer appears to have had a change of heart after reconsidering the matter, that's all.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
23/05/2013 1:51 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
Yes, but "Motta convinced him" is not exactly "Germer didn't really want to write it", is it? Germer appears to have had a change of heart after reconsidering the matter, that's all.

I can see this:

Motta, "Can I?"
Germer, "No."
Motta, "Can I? Reason 1."
Germer, "No."
Motta, "Can I? Reason 2."
Germer, "No.
Motta, "Can I? Reason 3."
Germer, "No."
Motta, "Can I? Reason 4."
Germer, [Thinks to self. Well at least in that one he doesn't sound nuts. Maybe he's onto something. I'll give it some consideration... okay, fine. If he wants to deal with it that bad, he can have it.] "Fuck it. Go ahead." OR [Hey, this reason isn't so bad. He should have said it first. Sometimes this kid should just get to the point. I'll give him a shot with it, and see how it goes.] "I now see..."

It's just a matter of perspective, I suppose.


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jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 1688
23/05/2013 4:57 pm  

from Shiva in Reply #26:
... Now that Lodge utilized the initiatory rites of the OTO, and was instructed to do so by Ray Burlingame, Frater Aquarius, IX[sup:1wlvebvx]o[/sup:1wlvebvx] OTO - at a time when no Baphomet was alive. There was a Grant in Britain and somebody in Swisslandia, but we had no knowledge of those folk. However, the current OTO has decided that Solar Lodge was not a true member of OTO, because Aquarius didn't have a written charter. Who would he have gotten it from?

Since we all know that temporal masonry and Oriental Templarism require a written charter, I chose to agree with H. Beta.

Could you please briefly explain the meaning of this agreement, which I am not clear about here?  You seem to be saying that H Beta retrospectively supplied yourself and/or Fr Aquarius with a charter in order to “legitimise” Solar Lodge activities, in return for your own acceptance of his overall leadership of the Order?  Or have I possibly misread your words/ ‘horse trading’ here?

"Shiva" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
Yes I agree with this but cannot see above why e.g. if Jerry Cornelius was McMurtry’s succession (I don’t know enough about it to say whether rightly so or not, but the evidence appears to bear this out) that would then be amply sufficient (“every right”) for him to therefore “assume leadership of the [c]O.T.O”.

Jerry told his own version, about slippng in and out of grace and interest in (support of) OTO under H Beta. In the end, he said, "It's the same OTO that I know." It's all spelled out somewhere within his website.

I am unclear as to how this arose, which was first brought up (I think) by Azidonis in Reply #12:

As for the (c)O.T.O. and linkages, I do not know the entire story. But it seems that, as VIII* under McMurtry, and as McMurtry's successor in that particular A:.A:. lineage, then Jerry Cornelius had every right to assume leadership of the (c)O.T.O. upon McMurtry's death. [My bold emphasis - j.b.][/unquote]
as it seems to be a red herring, since why would Jerry Cornelius as an VIII[sup:1wlvebvx]o[/sup:1wlvebvx] have “every right” to assume leadership of the [c]OTO based upon his the heir apparent of Grady McMurtry to his A.’. A.’. tradition/ lineage?  There does not seem to be any connection there at all.

"Shiva" wrote:
Motta was never an OTO member of any kind. This is pretty much universally recognized, and no evidence is extant showing a link, other than an interest.

There still seems to be an ongoing debate about this, capably dealt with by terra_trema and by gurugeorge in various of their Replies.

"Shiva" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
Motta did not take it “upon himself to assume headship of the O.T.O.”

Well, he offered me the directorship of the OTO (not SOTO) in California, in writing, and since nobody gave him a charter then the term "took it upon himself" is correct (regardless of his intent or self-appointed caretakership image)

“When Germer died” was the specific context I use, meaning the operiod from c. 1962 to 1975.  The point I was making specifically was that Motta did not “take it upon himself to assume headship” until the mid-70s, while he was exploring what he saw as all of the available options (discounting Metzger in view of Germer’s “excommunication” of him [my phrase – jb]; being prepared to accept Grant as OHO until finding out that Germer had ‘expelled’ him; attempting to open lines of dialogue and communication with McMurtry and other ex-members of the Caliphornian Agape Lodge…), until he came to draw the conclusion that no one was acceptable.  He proposed a convocation of the contenders not by then outcast nor unfit to “prove themselves in the true forge of Service” for 5 years, before making the decision amongst the gathering of themselves to unanimously approve the O.H.O. (- that would have been quite some meeting!), concerning which he declared in The Equinox Vol. 5 No. 1 (1975):

"Let it be known that as of present the O.T.O. has no O.H.O. […]
"Let it be known that Marcelo Ramos Motta, also known as PARZIVAL XIo, hereby convokes, on the Authority which has been thrust upon him [my emphasis – j.b.], all those interested in the O.T.O. to work in the name of the Order, in any way they may deem fit, regardless of any past faults or failures during the next five years, making contact and keeping contact with Marcelo Ramos Motta.
"At the end of those Five Years Marcelo Ramos Motta will invite those whom he may deem fit to convene* and to elect, by unanimity, the new O.H.O.” (from The O.T.O. Manifesto by Parzival XI[sup:1wlvebvx]o[/sup:1wlvebvx] [M.R.  Motta], pp. 270-1.)

*This phrase ‘those whom he may deem fit’ may cause a slight feeling of unease & misgiving and an arched raising of the eyebrows, but one trusts that it would have been carried out and implemented only under conditions of the utmost thelemic rigour.

Only when this failed did Motta reluctantly then take it (the O.T.O.) on himself, calling it - as I highlighted before, and regarding which it is a fact which should not be lightly forgotten – not the O.T.O. but Society O.T.O., a constitutionally different order with a different organizational structure, pending the arrival of a more qualified O.H.O. than himself taking the reins over.  Over and since those mid-70s years he then formed the opinion that in fact he was the most qualified person to do so, by default and then by right of succession.  From this point onwards until his death it appears to then have triggered a mild incipient megalomania which must have lain below the surface of his ego all along, but which Germer may have apparently occasionally detected (hence blowing him out with “you blithering idiot!”) now and again.

"Shiva" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
Yes (Of course, I don’t know where all the skellingtons are as yet!)

They were all displayed in the second edition (ISL - Behind the Veil). That was the purpose of this specific edition. To drag every last piece of spiritual garbage out of the landfill and put it on display in a textual museum.

The skeptic in me wonders, was there any particular reason why they might not all have been displayed in the first edition?  And is every last piece of spiritual garbage, etc., now definitely exhumed and ‘out’, or what are the possible chances of any more undiscovered and unexamined archaeological morsels & bones just waiting around for a third edition?!

"Azidonis" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
I can’t quite see the relevance of A.’. A.’. lineage to [C.]O.T.O. succession (although Motta himself did believe this, i.e. that at a high level 8[sup:1wlvebvx]o[/sup:1wlvebvx]=3[sup:1wlvebvx]□[/sup:1wlvebvx] A.’. A.’. was equivalent to XI[sup:1wlvebvx]o[/sup:1wlvebvx] O.T.O.

Did Crowley say this as well? Or just Motta?

To my knowledge, only Motta spelled that out.  Maybe the basic information may have come from A.C.in some form, but if that was the case I personally am not aware of it. He did tend to strictly compartmentalize the two Orders with little or no direct interaction although did say that XI[sup:1wlvebvx]o[/sup:1wlvebvx] was inscrutable and dwelt within its own palaces (something along those lines – I do not have the documents to quote directly.)

"Azidonis" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
Other times, he displayed a type of neurosis. The latter fact puts Motta's entire claim to 8=3 as "questionable", and thus his Transmission itself as questionable.

Are you stating that 8[sup:1wlvebvx]o[/sup:1wlvebvx]=3[sup:1wlvebvx]□[/sup:1wlvebvx]s have so perfected their personality in the Ruach that they cannot display any signs of mortal neurosis at all?  In effect stating that since Crowley was an M.T. from c. 1906-7 onwards, he couldn’t ever have had a ‘beastly’ (small b) personality?  If so I’m sure some might possibly disagree…!

Neurosis. Not just a few personality quirks.

Where does anyone ‘draw the line’, in that case?  Or is this to be one of those things where it is a case of ‘all or nothing’ – a most unsatisfactory criterion, if so.  It would seem according to your selection process that “quirks” (whatever those may be exactly!) are permissible, especially of course if they fit in with the world-viewpoint of the subjective observer.  Motta was at least realistic enough to witness and assess his own ego’s participation –

; but I certainly may have been quite wrong; it is such an ego-satisfying feeling, and therefore one can easily deceive oneself." - Motta to Germer, Dec. 30, 1961

- which is half the battle in these things.  And, if one was in a charitable frame of mind, this could always be put down to youthful folly & magical inexperience... However ---

"Azidonis" wrote:
Even so, I'm willing to say his commentary was more along the lines of wanting to be "the Beast", which is but a symptom of his neurosis.

There is a possibility that it may have been – but if the ‘quirk’ was indeed as serious as all that, it would have been more of a psychosis.

The point I was getting at here, though, was more that the C.O.T.O.’s hierarchy appear to venerate him (Motta) as the highest advanced member within the A.’. A.’. gradings for some reason – but where is the substantial and real proof for the empirical validity of this conception?  Or is it as illusory in effect as the similar controversy over whether he was actually a member or not of the O.T.O.?

This is going by received information which is all rather loose yet again  The situation would depend upon whether Motta was aware that he was the highest Grade A.’. A.’. member when Germer died, which was presumably the case or else if not, following protocol he would have made approaches to the senior.  And perhaps he indeed did, but we just don’t have the record.  As with so many of these things sent to frustrate the intentions of historians and the like, we simply just “don’t know”.

"Azidonis" wrote:
No. For one, he pretty much directly disobeyed the Tunis Comment.

“Well we all know”, don’t we, that The Tunis Comment was meant to be blindly obeyed without question (or more correctly, interpreted by each in a manner unto their own)?  Which bit do you think he “directly disobeyed”, then – surely not the bit about not studying The Book of the Law?!?!

"Azidonis" wrote:
However, I would posit that both the "Office" and the "Grade" of "Beast" are reserved for those holding the Grade of Magus, 9=2.

Yes I would agree - with its complement of “Scarlet Woman” being 8[sup:1wlvebvx]o[/sup:1wlvebvx]=3[sup:1wlvebvx]□[/sup:1wlvebvx], of course.

"Azidonis" wrote:
Surely you have gone over these many times.

Indeed so, but this is not the place to discuss/ divulge how much so & for how long, etc…!

"Azidonis" wrote:
If I have edited out something that you really want to touch on, feel free to bring it back up.

Bien sûr!

"gurugeorge" wrote:
"terra_trema" wrote:
--Motta. If he never was a member, then why was Germer prepared to send him a charter to work the lower triade (if he did send it or not is not the question here, but why would he offer to send it to a non-member)?

Indeed.  My memory is a bit fuzzy on this, but I seem to recall that a charter was indeed sent, but Motta didn't get it (along with some other missing correspondence between Germer and him - this was what led to a period when Motta thought Germer had been angry with him and cut contact).  There is reasonable proof that a charter was sent in Sascha's words in a letter somewhere (again, I can't recall the details, long time since I've looked at this stuff).  And subsequently Motta learnt from an ex-colleague from his military school that there had been a period during the Revolution when Motta had been under surveillance and his mail kept.

and if we're going by paper trails, that approval was never given.

Or if it was, may have been “lost” in, or (like footprints) eroded by the sands of time.

"gurugeorge" wrote:
People sometimes think Motta was paranoid.  I used to think that myself as well, until I read one of the editions of the Oriflamme (I think it was) where Motta had gotten hold of some old FBI files (under some legal process, I can't remember the name of it - all countries have it, when formerly secret government files from a reasonable time limit in the past can be accessed by the public, albeit they may still have stuff struck out).  Those files showed conclusively that Karl Germer was under surveillance at the direct insistence (and I mean insistence) of J. Edgar Hoover himself (Hoover's exact words were that this matter should be given "preferred and expeditious treatment") - and not only that, again at the insistence of Hoover, FBI agents made trouble for the Germers to the extent of spreading rumours in a way that made it impossible for Sascha to teach piano and earn a living.  It's the reason why they had to move from someplace to someplace else (ack, memory!).

The Freedom Of Information Act, possibly?  (Or, in the UK, the Data Protection Act  to a degree)?  Germer strongly believed his dwelling was bugged, rightly or wrongly, “paranoid” or not (thinking of that old favourite ‘just because you’re paranoid, doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you”…!  John Lennon’s was a similar parallel case in the 70s – people thought he was under  a similar delusion, but he was subsequently found out to have been right all along)

"terra_trema" wrote:
[...]
This, to me, proves without a doubt that Motta was an OTO member under Germer.

As ‘circumstantial’ evidence, this letter of Germer’s is pretty conclusive ‘for’ the case as opposed to ‘against’& was written six months before he passed on to his Greater Feast (in some considerable pain and discomfort – of present-life karma, according to some I have heard, however I digress).  “Without a doubt”, though, someone will disagree with this…. (Speaking of which,)

"Azidonis" wrote:
Your several contradictory letters concerning the O.T.O. I now see that you have seriously decided that it is imperative that a Lodge should be instituted in Brasil, and I agree with you that much could come out of this.

What about emphasising (at least) the (second) paragraph immediately following?

I am prepared to give you a Charter for a Lodge to work only the first three Degrees. I gave you many of the Rituals at one time or another. Please state exactly which Rituals you have copies of. Are they complete?

"MichaelStaley" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
When researching this and the available documents leading up to it years ago, I recall the distinct impression that this letter wasn't written easily... that Germer didn't really want to write it, and Motta had to convince him to do so. Could be wrong (been wrong before), but that was the impression (and that's when I liked Motta!).

I don't have that impression at all. Germer seems to have been autocratic and strongly willed enough to have known his own mind and to have said so. Indeed, some of his remarks to Motta were very intemperate. I doubt that he felt under any compulsion in this matter, or was reluctant.

I should say that I agree with Michael’s interpretation here, before the following:

"Azidonis" wrote:
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
Yes, but "Motta convinced him" is not exactly "Germer didn't really want to write it", is it? Germer appears to have had a change of heart after reconsidering the matter, that's all.

I can see this:

Motta, "Can I?"
Germer, "No."
Motta, "Can I? Reason 1."
Germer, "No."
Motta, "Can I? Reason 2."
Germer, "No.
Motta, "Can I? Reason 3."
Germer, "No."
Motta, "Can I? Reason 4."
Germer, [Thinks to self. Well at least in that one he doesn't sound nuts. Maybe he's onto something. I'll give it some consideration... okay, fine. If he wants to deal with it that bad, he can have it.] "Fuck it. Go ahead." OR [Hey, this reason isn't so bad. He should have said it first. Sometimes this kid should just get to the point. I'll give him a shot with it, and see how it goes.] "I now see..."

It's just a matter of perspective, I suppose.

This exchange reminds me just a little bit of The Simpsons episode where the kids are pestering Homer to take them to Splashdown Park (I think that’s where it was, do forgive me if my memory for this trivia is a not spot-on):  “Can we go to Splashdown Park?” Homer: “No.”  Bart & Lisa: “Can we go to Splashdown Park?”  Homer: “No.” (etc., etc., etc… eventually:) Bart & Lisa: “Can we go to Splashdown Park?” Homer: “Ohhhhhh [scream-like groan] well all right then!! - if you promise me you’ll never say those words to me again…”

Splish, splash, splosh:
N. Joy


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gurugeorge
(@gurugeorge)
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Posts: 456
23/05/2013 7:37 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
When researching this and the available documents leading up to it years ago, I recall the distinct impression that this letter wasn't written easily... that Germer didn't really want to write it, and Motta had to convince him to do so. Could be wrong (been wrong before), but that was the impression (and that's when I liked Motta!).

From letters I've read between the two of them, their relationship certainly had its ups and downs.  But isn't that normal for spiritual work?  We're all idiots in some areas, but hopefully our good aspects prevail, and the function of the Instructor, to a large extent, is to hold up a mirror.  That's what Germer did for Motta; that's what Motta did for me. 

I mean, for the most part Motta showed me nothing but grandmotherly kindness, except for one occasion when he cut contact for a few years (and it was definitely my bad).  But I eventually wrote to him again, and again, he took my fresh aspiration at face value and interacted with me on that level, as if nothing had happened.

It's a bit tricky reading interactions between teachers and pupils in spiritual matters, because after all there's a lot that we don't know about (wrt their face to face contact, what was said then, etc.).  Compare "koans", basically the original Chinese term means "public case", borrowed from legal terminology.  What you have in a koan is a time-slice of teaching, a polaroid of the moment when a pupil "got it".  In order to understand koans properly you have to be in that tradition, be familiar with the lingo, have had a similar process of teaching, and be in a similar position to the pupil in the koan, wrt your own progress.  It's the same with these kinds of letters, they're really snapshots of an ongoing process, and it's probably dangerous to draw firm conclusions as to what x "really" thought of y.

What is absolutely clear is that Germer had already given Motta some O.T.O. stuff (presumably the IX stuff), and considered him worthy to be given a charter.  Motta was about as O.T.O. as you could be in those days.

What's also clear is that Germer considered Motta to be his spiritual successor.  What's not clear is whether the capitalized "Follower" was just meant as a loose term simply denoting Motta's following on from Germer as boss Thelemic guy, and it was just Sascha's habit of German capitalization; or whether perhaps Germer had said something more detailed and precise, but Sascha was too distraught to report it very clearly; or whether the term really was meant by Germer in a more esoteric sense pertaining to Liber AL prophecies, etc.  But that's by the by.  Germer wanted Motta to be his successor: "Our Beloved Master is dead ... You are The Follower. Please, take it from me, as he died in my Arms and it was his last Wish!"

Why was that not good enough for people who considered themselves to be Thelemites, in a living tradition? What ought Thelemites to have made of that?  Just ignored it, fobbed it off as the silly words of a silly old woman?

Crowley clearly appointed Germer, Germer clearly appointed Motta.  Saturnus never ratified the "Caliph" thing.  It seems to me pretty clear-cut what Thelemites ought to have made of it.  But nobody at the time saw it that way.  Why?  I guess because Motta upset the applecart with his legal claim.  But as Germer's spiritual successor, IMHO, he had every right to do so.

I remember at the time when Motta mentioned in a letter that he was starting the legal proceedings, my heart sank.  I felt immediately that the claim would fail, mainly because courts wouldn't really understand what was going on, and basically treat this dispute between occult nuts as a joke.  (Also, I'd always thought that Motta's tack of attacking was the wrong one -  he should have simply continued to produce the fresh, fiery writing he'd shot across the Thelemic world's bows with the Commentaries, and gradually attracted followers.)  But I kept my mouth shut.  A few years later, Motta mentioned that he had lost both cases, and in typically Crowley/Motta wry style, went on to add: "did you suppose otherwise"?  I bet you nobody supposed otherwise, I bet you all Motta's followers thought it was a bad idea.  I bet you even Motta thought it was a bad idea.  Yet he persisted.  Why?  I think, basically, to ensure that there was a kind of paper trail for future investigators about what really went on during the birth-pangs of the New Aeon.  All kinds of stuff came out of the woodwork in those trials, stuff that will be valuable to future investigators. 

And meanwhile, we have the enlightening spectacle of a deeply religious and highly-attained man being pilloried by people who ought to have loved him, warts and all, just like they love Crowley, warts and all.  That will shock future Thelemites!

Sorry to ramble on, but this thread is awakening old memories for me 🙂  And it's probably interesting for others to have a teeny bit of an insider insight as to what went on in those days.


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obscurus
(@obscuruspaintus)
Member
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Posts: 316
23/05/2013 8:12 pm  

That felt like a breath of fresh air.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5200
23/05/2013 9:05 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
Could you please briefly explain the meaning of this agreement, which I am not clear about here?  You seem to be saying that H Beta retrospectively supplied yourself and/or Fr Aquarius with a charter in order to “legitimise” Solar Lodge activities, in return for your own acceptance of his overall leadership of the Order?  Or have I possibly misread your words/ ‘horse trading’ here?

No - that' not what happened. Yes - you have missed my meaning.

I AGREED with Beta that we were not the OTO because we didn't have a written charter. I offered you the whole story, but you said that you were/are busy with Public Enemy #1 matters  ;), so here's a short clip out of Inside Solar Lodge - Outside the Law:

"The current head of the O.T.O., Hymenaeus Beta, viewed an early version of the present work on-line and commented as follows:

“I find your history of Solar Lodge well written and very valuable as a first-hand account. However, OTO disagrees with your comments about Jean Brayton’s initiation. Grady McMurtry was the only OTO officer authorized by the then-OHO of OTO, Karl Germer, to organize in the US in the years before his death in 1962. McMurtry also held prior appointments granting broad powers from Crowley, which Germer had approved and which remained valid. Neither Ray nor Mildred Burlingame had any authorization from Germer to carry out initiations. Jean Brayton’s initiation was therefore not valid, so she was never a member of OTO, and had no basis for organizing a lodge or admitting members. Solar Lodge was therefore not a branch of OTO. We view it as an ill-advised attempt to appropriate the name and organization after Germer’s death ...“
- Hymenaeus Beta, Frater Superior, OTO, to Frater Shiva,  June 14, 2007.

"Thus the contemporary, legally-endorsed lineage of Ordo Templi Orientis does not recognize Solar Lodge as having any validity in the O.T.O. history. I am willing to accede to their opinion, for “we had no written Charter.“
Therefore, any reference to O.T.O. in this present volume is merely descriptive and is not meant in any way to be claimative.
However, irrespective of formal nomenclature, Solar Lodge was a group that was established in the Crowleyan tradition, albeit one of questionable parentage. Issues of its formal legitimacy aside, there is no doubt that, in its early years, Solar Lodge did follow the curriculum of the AA, and it was obvious (to us) that it was indeed an externalized manifestation of that one immortal Order that has No Name. "

- from Inside Solar Lodge - Outside the Law (c)2007 by ASI


"Shiva" wrote:
Motta was never an OTO member of any kind. This is pretty much universally recognized, and no evidence is extant showing a link, other than an interest.
"jamie barter" wrote:
There still seems to be an ongoing debate about this, capably dealt with by terra_trema and by gurugeorge in various of their Replies.

Yes, there does seem to be a piece of evidence apparenty available. but the written charter never materialized, and the "evidence" was not enough to convince a federal judge. So in the end, as with all things whatseover, it doesn't really matter.

"Azidonis" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
I can’t quite see the relevance of A.’. A.’. lineage to [C.]O.T.O. succession (although Motta himself did believe this, i.e. that at a high level 8[sup:37c3ol1x]o[/sup:37c3ol1x]=3[sup:37c3ol1x]□[/sup:37c3ol1x] A.’. A.’. was equivalent to XI[sup:37c3ol1x]o[/sup:37c3ol1x] O.T.O.

Did Crowley say this as well? Or just Motta?

Well, I came to that same conclusion independently. I put it this way:

and ...

[/align:37c3ol1x]

Please note that I have always maintained that these correspondences hold true only if the "lesser" orders do in fact live up to their full potential. These are diagrams of "best case scenarios."


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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24/05/2013 2:33 am  

Manson and followers originally carved X onto their foreheads, the ancient symbol of the Sun, some say. A friend told me once, he ended up at a house in LA, apparently a meeting of the A.*.A.*. where everyone there was wearing a necklace with the same symbol. Manson has said that one thing they used to do is "light the candles and set the circle"; so presumably they were practicing sex magick.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5200
24/05/2013 3:40 am  
"Magickal" wrote:
Manson ... etc

Tilt and wobble!  The train is going off the track. Hold on!
What does this have to do with the subject?


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jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 1688
26/05/2013 1:34 pm  
"gurugeorge" wrote:
From letters I've read between the two of them, their relationship certainly had its ups and downs.  But isn't that normal for spiritual work?  We're all idiots in some areas, but hopefully our good aspects prevail, and the function of the Instructor, to a large extent, is to hold up a mirror.  That's what Germer did for Motta; that's what Motta did for me. [..etc...]

Yes this is true.

"gurugeorge" wrote:
Sorry to ramble on, but this thread is awakening old memories for me 🙂  And it's probably interesting for others to have a teeny bit of an insider insight as to what went on in those days.

No I don’t think it is rambling at all, and you have made some valuable contributions to the general insight/ oversight, gurugeorge!

"Shiva" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
Could you please briefly explain the meaning of this agreement, which I am not clear about here?  You seem to be saying that H Beta retrospectively supplied yourself and/or Fr Aquarius with a charter in order to “legitimise” Solar Lodge activities, in return for your own acceptance of his overall leadership of the Order?  Or have I possibly misread your words/ ‘horse trading’ here?

No - that' not what happened. Yes - you have missed my meaning.

Yes, I’m sure I had!  But that was a scenario that could have come across, given the wording.  Which all goes to prove, we must be as exact as we can in what we say (puts away schoolmasterly cape).

"Shiva" wrote:

and ...

[/align:3nojvh0k]

Please note that I have always maintained that these correspondences hold true only if the "lesser" orders do in fact live up to their full potential. These are diagrams of "best case scenarios."

This looks an involved and closely thought out piece of work which I would like to study in more detail though do not have time to do so at this moment.

"Shiva" wrote:
I AGREED with Beta that we were not the OTO because we didn't have a written charter. I offered you the whole story, but you said that you were/are busy with Public Enemy #1 matters

Yes this is indeed so, and I may be away from this forum (Lashtal) for a little while, or contribute more irregularly than at present. “But I’ll be back!”

"Magickal" wrote:
Manson and followers originally carved X onto their foreheads, the ancient symbol of the Sun, some say. A friend told me once, he ended up at a house in LA, apparently a meeting of the A.*.A.*. where everyone there was wearing a necklace with the same symbol. Manson has said that one thing they used to do is "light the candles and set the circle"; so presumably they were practicing sex magick.

Yes I was wondering where Manson came into it – you’re not surely suggesting he may have hooked up with Motta (or any of his SOTO associates) in the sixties?!  There is even doubt he contacted “the OTO” as a larger subset then, although some evidence he was involved with those interestingly sinister looking coves “The Process Church of the Final Judgement”, or similar wording.  (Are they dealt with here in a different thread, does anyone know?)

Till we meet again -
N. Joy


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