The Legacy of the S...
 
Notifications
Clear all

The Legacy of the S[ociety].O.T.O.

Page 2 / 2

dyulax
(@dyulax)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 18
 

Jamie, returning to the original question, there are some old fellows living around Sao Paulo, Brazil, who are still in hold of S.O.T.O., but it seems they don't wanna talk to anybody. For example, they sell books, but only if they  think you are not a "spy" or anything like that.

You may try to contact them:

http://www.socotonobrasil.org.br/

I had been through one of the ceremonies Motta wrote for his SOTO 0º, and man.... I must say it was a punch in the face! In the good sense, it is very insightful. It was intended to reprove the candidate at any point if he/she fails in some test. Then you would hear a laugh and a lesson, and you would need to return next year to try again. I do not have the text and I am sure the people who applied this to me are not going to share, but you can see the sketch here:

http://www.parareligion.ch/sunrise/mottai.htm

P.S. I am not a SOTO member, or COTO member, or whatever. The ceremony was inherited by some people and is used in another organization.

Good luck in your research!


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 52 years ago
Posts: 0
 

People who want to undertake this initiation at some point should not read this "sketch", unless they want to spoil themselves.

PS not a member of any OTO either 😉


ReplyQuote
dyulax
(@dyulax)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 18
 
"terra_trema" wrote:
People who want to undertake this initiation at some point should not read this "sketch", unless they want to spoil themselves.

PS not a member of any OTO either 😉

Good point!


ReplyQuote
jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1688
Topic starter  

Thank you for all the information, dyulax.  The ceremony which you describe sounds rather intriguing & perhaps as if koans may be involved?  “If you fail to react properly and give the proper response, do not pass Go but return next time (next year?) & try try again” – is it a bit like taking a driving test, do you suppose - one carries on regardless until it is passed, yea even at the seventy-third attempt?!

Would anyone happen to know if any S.O.T.O. initiations are actually carried out under the name or authority of the S.O.T.O. itself, or a group calling itself something different but with a definite magickal link of some sort to that (material) organization?  Also how many other degree rituals were/ are there, and how far did they correspond with the traditional O.T.O. structure of either Triad or nine degrees (Ten including Minerval, and excepting the administrative grades of X[sup:3hn5zlef]o[/sup:3hn5zlef], etc.)?

The position of Motta’s S.O.T.O. and the constitution (small and large c) of its Lodges seems to fluctuate quite a lot and not a lot of information is known – or has been made public – even more so in the aftermath of his Greater Feast.  If it is still a living order providing ongoing initiation in some form it is understandable that they may not wish to unnecessarily publicise their activities – however if they are moribund or have “ceased trading”, the relevant facts would be pertinent & interesting purely as a socio-magico-historical phenomenon. 

At present though it is like trying to piece together a jigsaw puzzle without knowing how many pieces there are.  As far as I understand, and as I mentioned at the start of this thread, Motta’s principal (in terms of magickal activity) Followers at the current time appear to be Ray Eales and David Bersson, but as far as I am aware neither of them are claiming or wish to assume the ongoing mantle of S.O.T.O., or even the name S.O.T.O. itself (I exclude James Gunther from the list as although also one of Motta’s principal A.'. A.'. students he is closely connected to the C.O.T.O. and unlikely to so claim himself (- most interesting though that would be!!)

Genealogically and jigsawpuzzlingly yours,
N. Joy


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 52 years ago
Posts: 0
 
"jamie barter" wrote:
At present though it is like trying to piece together a jigsaw puzzle without knowing how many pieces there are.  As far as I understand, and as I mentioned at the start of this thread, Motta’s principal (in terms of magickal activity) Followers at the current time appear to be Ray Eales and David Bersson, but as far as I am aware neither of them are claiming or wish to assume the ongoing mantle of S.O.T.O., or even the name S.O.T.O. itself

93,

David Bersson does claim (S)OTO leadership. His website makes that chrystal clear. However, I am not a member there and so cannot comment on their initiatory system or grade structure.

Ray Eales formulated H.O.O.R. on the basis of Motta's OTO. The structure and "storyline" of this Order is a little different to what Motta had laid out, and yet sometimes pretty similar. H.O.O.R. was founded particularly to continue Frater Parzival's work without having to deal with the OTO copyright issues.

Both do not claim authority over the other. It seems to be rather a case of peaceful co-existence.

93/93
Timo


ReplyQuote
jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1688
Topic starter  
"terra_trema" wrote:
David Bersson does claim (S)OTO leadership. His website makes that chrystal clear. However, I am not a member there and so cannot comment on their initiatory system or grade structure.

I wasn’t aware last time I checked that David Bersson (a.k.a. Frater Sphinx) had made his claim to “Directorship” [=O.H.O.] of S.O.T.O. quite so “crystal clear” -  I thought he was simply claiming to be “Frater Superior of the Entire World” - but having gone back & checked again, this does indeed seem to be the case.  However the actual question of succession is, as usual, not so plain and the matter of how he comes to find himself in this exalted position is rather diverted by some talk about it being his “duty” to take over the reins,

Verily and Amen, Frater Sphinx being in good standing in the A.•.A.•. and the O.T.O. at the time of Marcelo Motta's death made it his duty to continue the battle.

i.e., he must have just woken up & felt compelled to do it one day, since the “succession” was certainly not authorised by “the traitor” his (ex) girlfriend, the previous prime contender Claudia Canuto de Menezes?  I notice that any hopes for brevity in the matter of the reformed S.O.T.O.’s Constitution appear to have gone for a burton, however one must, up to a certain point, rather admire his brazen chutzpah:

And Frater Sphinx in His Glory spoke that Mighty Oath where He stated he would build the Order into an Empire such as the World has never seen.

"terra_trema" wrote:
Ray Eales formulated H.O.O.R. on the basis of Motta's OTO. The structure and "storyline" of this Order is a little different to what Motta had laid out, and yet sometimes pretty similar. H.O.O.R. was founded particularly to continue Frater Parzival's work without having to deal with the OTO copyright issues.

I also thought H.O.O.R. was quite distinct from S.O.T.O., possibly as you say to avoid those pesky copyright issues, and that it was careful not to lay any claim to being connected with the “Society” for that reason.  Its structure is also quite different from the “classic” O.T.O., but may have had more of a resemblance to some apect of the S.O.T.O. at some time (– that is one of the things I am trying to determine.)

"terra_trema" wrote:
Both do not claim authority over the other. It seems to be rather a case of peaceful co-existence.

“Peaceful” co-existence – that’s nice.  Certainly more so than with Motta’s Declaration of Trust / Instrument of Succession, it seems!

N. Joy


ReplyQuote
jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1688
Topic starter  

Many thanks to everyone who has helped with ongoing contributions here, which although they haven’t told me that much factually that I wasn’t already pretty much aware of, nonetheless held many points of interest.  One thing I was still wondering, are any members of the original “Declaration of Trust” still alive (Daniel BenStone, William Barden & Claudia Canuto DeMenezes) & what is their last position vis-à-vis the (legacy of the) S.O.T.O. if so, would anyone know? 

Reply #26 by Shiva on 21 May 2013 at 08.20:09 30pm:

Since we all know that temporal masonry and Oriental Templarism require a written charter, I chose to agree with H. Beta. This entire scenario is written in the plainest language in both versions of Inside Solar Lodge. As you have indicated that you have not read this/these books, please PM me with an offsite email address and I will be pleased to send you a pdf of the specific written words.

I tried all last week to PM you, Shiva, as requested – with what was a pleasant & friendly little e-mail.  I previously informed that I was busy engaged with an ongoing family crisis (and in a loose sense dealing with a sort of ‘public enemy’!), which would prevent me from immediately engaging; however when I did find time to reply I found that messages to you were ‘blocked’.  Whether you do not allow anyone to contact you by this means on Lashtal, or whether you have decided to establish it for me alone, I suppose it was good ‘joke’.  However I don’t think I’ll get caught doing that again twice & it looks as if I will just have to form my opinion as and when I get around to reading your Inside Solar Lodge (which I do intend to do by the way - you may send me a complimentary copy to make amends, if you wish…)

“Return to sender”,
N. Joy


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 6458
 
"jamie barter" wrote:
I found that messages to you were ‘blocked’.

I'm not sure why that would be - but I already posted the pertinent portion (relating to OTO's position on Solar Lodge) somewhere above in this thread ... quite a few days ago. See Reply #46 - that's what I would have sent you.


ReplyQuote
dyulax
(@dyulax)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 18
 

Claudia Canuto de Menezes (PhD) is still alive and it seems she works as a teacher in Universities, but she is not involved in any "Thelemic activity", as far as we Brazilians know.

This is her resumé: http://buscatextual.cnpq.br/buscatextual/visualizacv.do?id=B592400

I don't know if this is true or not, but I heard she was Motta's girlfriend at the time of his death, so the most close person to him.


ReplyQuote
jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1688
Topic starter  

Thank you dyulax, that is most kind & informative of you to let us all know.

All Joy to you
N. Joy


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 52 years ago
Posts: 0
 

Not sure I should comment in this thread! Lmao ahem.


ReplyQuote
Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 4221
 
"uranus" wrote:
Not sure I should comment in this thread!

Then why have you?


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 6458
 
"uranus" wrote:
Not sure I should comment in this thread! Lmao ahem.

No, that would be dreaded thread necromancy - not appropriate at all, especially if one has nothing to say.

What is the qabalistic "Lmao"?  Let mankind accept oblivion (of worn-out threads)?


ReplyQuote
jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1688
Topic starter  
"Shiva" wrote:
"uranus" wrote:
Not sure I should comment in this thread! Lmao ahem.

No, that would be dreaded thread necromancy - not appropriate at all, especially if one has nothing to say.

What is the qabalistic "Lmao"?  Let mankind accept oblivion (of worn-out threads)?

I would disagree that “it’s not appropriate at all”, as it can be better to reactivate one in which several lines of related & relevant discussion may have already been taken place, rather than, perhaps, duplicating them & re-hashing the same old scenarios all over again in a new one.  (This doesn’t apply to those incorrigible people who actually like rehashing the same old scenarios, of course.  There can't really be much hope for those!)

I can’t quite see the motive for reactivating this particular one though, and – well, just fancy! – I seem to have been the OP here, too…

“Let mankind accept oblivion” – but you have left the second half of it (ahem) unattacked!  (- “And hex every mention”??)

N Joy


ReplyQuote
Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 4221
 

I don't agree with you in this instance, Jamie. If the poster has something constructive to contribute, then that would be fine. However, the remark "Not sure I should comment in this thread! Lmao ahem." doesn't exactly fill one with optimism, does it? In fact, one wonders why on earth the poster bothered typing - let alone posting - their remarks in the first place.


ReplyQuote
jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1688
Topic starter  
"Michael Staley" wrote:
I don't agree with you in this instance, Jamie. If the poster has something constructive to contribute, then that would be fine. However, the remark "Not sure I should comment in this thread! Lmao ahem." doesn't exactly fill one with optimism, does it? In fact, one wonders why on earth the poster bothered typing - let alone posting - their remarks in the first place.

I quite agree with you also, Michael, here “in this instance”.  Like you say, the remark quoted does not fill one with optimism at all, although I got the impression that there wasn’t likely to be any more to follow since the poster for some obscure reason “was not sure [he] should comment in this thread” to begin with.  A supreme piece of silliness from start to finish, really – which can’t be blamed on the silly season starting, as that’s now more or less finished in the (also silly but after a different fashion) build-up to Xmas.

More a propos the original topic, I have often wondered why - in the interests of perceived neutrality, equal representation to the views of all Crowley’s main successors and a level playing field - the S.O.T.O./ Motta’s offshoot and what remains of it, has also not got a small board to itself here on Lashtal, particularly since Kenneth Grant and the Typhonians are so generously represented themselves  (and I say this quite independently of any opinions I may or may not hold regarding the quality of any present S.O.T.O. productions e.g. 'Castletower', etc.)

I would also imagine that the “Caliphornian” O.T.O. may well have been asked, but reluctantly had to decline for some inscrutable reason ??? known only to themselves; meanwhile it would seem the “Swiss” O.T.O. is practically nonexistent these days, and so would not be eligible in any event.

N Joy


ReplyQuote
lashtal
(@lashtal)
Owner and Editor Admin
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 5353
 
"jamie barter" wrote:
I have often wondered why - in the interests of perceived neutrality, equal representation to the views of all Crowley’s main successors and a level playing field - the S.O.T.O./ Motta’s offshoot and what remains of it, has also not got a small board to itself here on Lashtal, particularly since Kenneth Grant and the Typhonians are so generously represented themselves

'Cos no-one's asked for one.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


ReplyQuote
jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1688
Topic starter  
"lashtal" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
I have often wondered why - in the interests of perceived neutrality, equal representation to the views of all Crowley’s main successors and a level playing field - the S.O.T.O./ Motta’s offshoot and what remains of it, has also not got a small board to itself here on Lashtal, particularly since Kenneth Grant and the Typhonians are so generously represented themselves

'Cos no-one's asked for one.

Well that’s a supremely simple answer, in a nutshell… I thought it was the case that you would have intended to be impartial. 
“Don’t ask, don’t get” would seem to be the order of the day!  And one can’t say fairer than that…

N Joy


ReplyQuote
lashtal
(@lashtal)
Owner and Editor Admin
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 5353
 
"jamie barter" wrote:
I thought it was the case that you would have intended to be impartial. 
“Don’t ask, don’t get” would seem to be the order of the day!  And one can’t say fairer than that…

You mentioned the existence of a Typhonian Order forum here: just for clarity, I approached the Order because I was concerned that Grant wasn't well-represented online and I believed - and continue to believe - that his relevance as regards the legacy of Aleister Crowley was significant. Likewise Austin Osman Spare. Happy to add Forums (Fora?) for other relevant individuals and groups if there's demand for it among the membership. There never seemed to be much point in including an OTO Forum, that Order being very well represented online already, but, again, I'd be happy to create one if there was a desire for it.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


ReplyQuote
jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1688
Topic starter  

Thanks for clarifying here further Paul.

"lashtal" wrote:
Happy to add Forums (Fora?) for other relevant individuals and groups if there's demand for it among the membership.

I don't feel motivated enough to petition for a forum for the C.O.T.O. or the S.O.T.O. here myself, but I think it might well be interesting to read their input & dialogue on relevant matters concerning the legacy of Aleister Crowley as appropriate?  Maybe someone else might feel prompted to do so.

N Joy


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 2967
 
"lashtal" wrote:
There never seemed to be much point in including an OTO Forum, that Order being very well represented online already, but, again, I'd be happy to create one if there was a desire for it.

One of the things I have always liked about lashtal.com is the freedom of speech that we have here. We are expected to joust courteously, but we are also able to pretty much speak our minds, especially where profanity is concerned (soft rule again, try to keep it classy). This is actually a big thing, in my opinion, because it allows us more room for self expression, without feeling like we have to walk some mental tightrope to do so.

That said, I think Lashtal.com has become a wonderful medium by which many people of different paths have been able to effectively communicate over the years. And, to be honest, there are very many sites/forums on the web where that just does not occur. I recall joining a forum a few years ago, and got banned for writing a post that contained the word "damn" in it. Boo hoo.

Point being, I think that an O.T.O. forum on this site would be nice to see. I should hope though, that we as posters would be able to engage in the discussions on it with some sort of class, so that you would not have to moderate it too heavily (ie. the OTO bashing, etc.).


ReplyQuote
jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1688
Topic starter  
"Azidonis" wrote:
One of the things I have always liked about lashtal.com is the freedom of speech that we have here. We are expected to joust courteously, but we are also able to pretty much speak our minds, especially where profanity is concerned (soft rule again, try to keep it classy). [...]

A little surprising, but nonetheless encouraging, change of heart from the person who has at least graced us with profanities in the past and bestowed upon us these pearls in the “Know thyself: previous incarnations” thread on the “Magick” board:

Reply #40 by Azidonis on July 21, 2013, 0810 am:

... The shit really doesn't matter. ...

In other terms, one may gain insight into one's karma, and see how one's reactions to given situation may or may not fit in within one's concept of the True Will (which is also bullshit). ...

...and it is bullshit. ...

Can you put it to yourself that every single thought and possibility that arises out of thought, which is all thinking in general, is complete and total bullshit? If you can, then good for you. If you can't, and you want to keep any of it to yourself as "not bullshit", then you have not reached that point. ...

And the skeptics will ask, "Well look, asshole. Do you think we should all be like Tarzan?" ...

Of course not! It's all bullshit! ...

which drove Lutz to make the following response:

Reply #43 by the_real_simon_iff on: July 22, 2013, 0111 pm:

On the other hand: if the grade of enlightenment and understanding is equivalent to the amount of usage of "shit", "bullshit", "asshole" and so on, what do I know

Otherwise, I quite agree with the rest of the posting here.  😀
N Joy


ReplyQuote
Los
 Los
(@los)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 2195
 
"Azidonis" wrote:
One of the things [...]

Nope, sorry. Your post contains duality, and it is therefore invalid.

What's with you lately?


ReplyQuote
Markus
(@markus)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 264
 

Los, please refer to Matthew 7:5.

Markus


ReplyQuote
ignant666
(@ignant666)
Elderly American druggie
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 3835
 

1) Nicely played, Markus
2) And to think some (well, one person) have questioned my claim, supported by evidence, and still uncontroverted, that "Los" is a Turing-bot.
Note to boys in CS lab: Perhaps some issues here- recursive posting of same text string?


ReplyQuote
ignant666
(@ignant666)
Elderly American druggie
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 3835
 

Of course, I might be easily be convinced that recursive posting of text culled from a very limited pool, in response to practically any stimulus, is the intended behavior of, rather than a sign of a coding bug in, the "Los-bot".
I still think that this "this post contains duality" loop is telling as to whether we have adequate evidence to accept the claim "Los is not a bot" (which clearly we should decline to accept in the absence of adequate evidence, as we should all such claims, as good skeptics), as much so as the "that Tao guy" glitch i noted a while back.
Fraters don't fraters/sorors have "conversations" with bots!


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 2967
 
"jamie barter" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
One of the things I have always liked about lashtal.com is the freedom of speech that we have here. We are expected to joust courteously, but we are also able to pretty much speak our minds, especially where profanity is concerned (soft rule again, try to keep it classy). [...]

A little surprising, but nonetheless encouraging, change of heart from the person who has at least graced us with profanities in the past and bestowed upon us these pearls in the “Know thyself: previous incarnations” thread on the “Magick” board:

Do you not know how to read? One of the things I like about this place is that I can post it how I want to say it, not how some social stigmas attempt to dictate.

'try to keep is classy' as a 'soft rule' is just that... a soft rule


ReplyQuote
jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1688
Topic starter  
"Azidonis" wrote:
Do you not know how to read?

What a strange question!  To which the answer, perhaps not surprisingly, is: ‘yes’.

"Azidonis" wrote:
'try to keep is classy' as a 'soft rule' is just that... a soft rule

Since you asked, I wonder what is a soft rule, after all? (other than a rule which is not hard? ;D ) Could it be a rule which won’t stand up in a court of law?  Or maybe one which bends under pressure?  Or one which is malleable and can be twisted to suit the rule-breaker’s purpose?  Or “none of the above”?

"Los" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
One of the things [...]

Nope, sorry. Your post contains duality, and it is therefore invalid.

What's with you lately?

How many more times is it possible to repeat the same merry 'quip' before it suddenly becomes incisive or funny or relevant in a way it wasn’t before?  This is the third attempt now, and it hasn’t managed to add anything new to the other two.  But, maybe if Los perseveres hidden depths will miraculously be made apparent by the fifth or sixth go?

I don’t know if (as has been suggested) Los really is a putative  ‘bot or cyborg, but there do seem to be signs of a severe operations malfunction going on somewhere: I would recommend a full systems sweep and everybody keeping a more watchful eye out for any further errant behaviour on the part of this predictable [sic; not unpredictable] unit.

- “Danger, Will Robinson?!”
N Joy


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 2967
 
"jamie barter" wrote:
[...]

ReplyQuote
jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1688
Topic starter  
"Azidonis" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
[...]

[ ? ? ? ] [~ ~ ~] [ ! ! ! ]

[ 🙂  😀  ;D]
N Joy


ReplyQuote
Page 2 / 2
Share: