Liber LXV, dated Oct. 30-Nov. 3, 1907, by Aleister Crowley: "An account of the relations of the aspirant and his Holy Guardian Angel.":

Chapter III, "33. Come thou, O beloved One, O Lord God of the Universe, O Vast One, O Minute One! I am Thy beloved."

Liber X, dated Dec. 12, 1907, by Aleister Crowley: "An account of the sending forth of the Master by the A.'. A.'. and an explanation of His mission.":

"2. I who comprehend in myself all the vast and the minute, all the bright and the dark, have mitigated the brilliance of mine unutterable splendour, sending forth V.V.V.V.V. as a ray of my light, as a messenger unto that small dark orb.

3. Then V.V.V.V.V. taketh up the word, and sayeth:

4. Men and women of the Earth, to you am I come from the Ages beyond the Ages, from the Space beyond your vision; and I bring to you these words."

Liber XC, dated [summer,[?]] 1911, by Aleister Crowley:  "An account of Initiation, and an indication as to those who are suitable for the same.": Written 1911. "An account of Initiation, and an indication as to those who are suitable for the same.":

"12. Come with me, and I will give you all that is desirable upon the earth.

13. Because I give you that of which Earth and its joys are but as shadows.

14. They flee away, but my joy abideth even unto the end."

In J. Daniel Gunther's book Initiation In The Æon of the Child - The Inward Journey, published 2009. the author writes this on page 31:

There is a far deeper meaning of The Abomination of Desolation [mentioned in Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11, Matthew 24:15, and Mark 13:14 in the Bible that is understood by initiates. Aspirants should carefully study Liber VII [= Liber Liberi vel Lapidis Lazuli] and Liber CDXVIII [= The Vision and the Voice [mostly dated 1909 by Aleister Crowley]]." 

In Liber VII, chapter III, verse 21, an "abominable lonely Thing of wickedness" is mentioned in the following way, "Thou shalt set up the abominable lonely Thing of wickedness. Oh joy! to lay that corner-stone!" 

In THE CRY OF THE 21ST ÆTHYR, WHICH IS CALLED ASP, The Vision and the Voice, an "abomination of desolation" is mentioned in the following way:

"Nothing shall stand before His face”; all we have heard of thine infinite glory and holiness, of thy beauty and majesty, and behold! there is nothing but this abomination of desolation."

On page 169 in the same book Gunther writes the following: "In chapter 5 of Liber LXV [Oct. 30-Nov. 3, 1907], the comming of the New Aeon is likened unto a Star that falls from the heavens upon the earth [Liber LXV, V:5 [chapter 5, verse 5, 6 and 7: "5. Now is the Pillar established in the Void; now is Asi fulfilled of Asar; now is Hoor let down into the Animal Soul of Things like a fiery star that falleth upon the darkness of the earth. 6. Through the midnight thou art dropt, O my child, my conqueror, my sword-girt captain, O Hoor! and they shall find thee as a black gnarl'd glittering stone, and they shall worship thee. 7. My prophet shall prophesy concerning thee; around thee the maidens shall dance, and bright babes be born unto them. Thou shalt inspire the proud ones with infinite pride, and the humble ones with an ecstasy of abasement; all this shall transcend the Known and the Unknown with somewhat that hath no name. For it is as the abyss of the Arcanum that is opened in the secret Place of Silence."]."

On page 171 in the same book Gunther writes this: "The "fiery star that falleth upon the darkness of the earth" (LVX, V:5), and the star which is called Wormwood in the Apocalypse [Revelation 8: 10-11 in the Bible] are identical, the former fulfilling the inevitable need to restore balance within the psyche."

And on page 172 in the same book, Gunther states that the Christian Bible in Luke chapter 10, verse 18: "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.", referres to "the same falling star described in our Holy Book, Liber LXV, V:5 [chapter 5, verse 5]": "Now is the Pillar established in the Void; now is Asi fulfilled of Asar; now is Hoor let down into the Animal Soul of Things like a fiery star that falleth upon the darkness of the earth."

---

In the the thread "Liber L. vel Bogus - The real confession of Aleister Crowley" - http://www.lashtal.com/forum/index.php?topic=6399.150 - I write concerning Crowley's compelling "opposition to the Bible itself", and why it is likely to have influenced his choice of the (according to Richard Kaczynski in his Crowley biography Perdurabo (First Edition 2002), p. 13) Bible-inspired name Perdurabo in 1898, along similar lines to how Aleister Crowley's compelling "opposition to the Bible itself" is also reflected in how The Book of the Law is written.

Oh, there's the Liber AL lines about somebody coming to follow that will explain it all. I nominate Achad for the fulfillment of this prophecy. Crowley did too. And there are other lines that suggest somebody else will be coming along for one purpose or another.

The Second Beast of Revelation 13 [/align:1wj2mpxs]

"And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed."

There's always that (^) little vision.

But whether the concept is Thelemic or Biblical, it's a universal archetypal belief. The Jews are still waiting for their Messiah, and we (the chosen ;)) are not holding our breaths in extended pranayama, are we?

Everybody wants somebody to come along and save them or to enforce their religious beliefs upon the rest of humanity.

There are also the lines, "There cometh one to follow thee: he shall expound it," and "Change not as much as the style of a letter; for behold! thou, o prophet, shalt not behold all these mysteries hidden therein. The child of thy bowels, he shall behold them. Expect him not from the East, nor from the West; for from no expected house cometh that child."

So there's a few hints about subsequent revealers ... but of a Messiah?

[/align:1wj2mpxs]

Doesn't Liber AL specifically identify that one as a prophet rather than a Messiah? I may be splitting hairs here, but it seems to be quite a big difference.

And as to the quotes shared above by Wellreadwellbred, I don't see any of those as particularly supporting of an idea of a Messiah in its traditional sense. I'm away from home, and as such don't have copies of Crowley's commentaries on the Holy Books to hand, but I would be interested in seeing what he has to say regarding these verses.

With the extensive quotes from Gunther, let's just say that I'm not convinced. I'm looking for strong supporting evidence from Crowley, not from Gunther's interpretation of Crowley which to me seems stunted, and unnaturally focused on an Old Aeonic interpretation of Thelema.

I'll look further into Crowley's commentaries when I am home, and look forward to further discussion on the topic. Thanks to all for your input!

No specific mention of "prophet."  And the word Messiah doesn't appear anywhere in AL.

mes·si·ah noun
Judaism: a king who will be sent by God to save the Jews
Christianity: Jesus Christ
Christianity: a person who is expected to save people [Christians are implied] from a very bad situation

The term Messiah is Jewish/Hebrew and it got carried over into Christianity. I know of nowhere it is used by AC or Lao Tze, but search on!

On page 122 of the said book by  J. Daniel Gunther, the the following is quoted from The Cry of the 3rd Aethyr in The Vision and The Voice:

"And for this is BABALON under the power of the Magician, that she hath submitted herself unto the work; and she guardeth the Abyss14. And in her is a perfect purity of that which is above; yet she is sent as the Redeemer to them that are below. For there is no other way into the Supernal Mystery but through her, and the Beast on which she rideth ..."

On page 124 and 125 in the same book Gunther writes this:

"Lest there be misunderstanding on this point and it is mistakenly believed that we are fostering a false Soteriology, I will speak plainly. The Messiah was not Aleister Crowley; despite all his genius, which is undeniable, he was merely the scribe for a greater Adept. Neither does V.V.V.V.V. only represent a motto for Aleister Crowley. Frater Perdurabo, upon attaining to Magister Templi, took a motto with these initials of the A.'.A .'. It would be improper to discuss this matter openly in this place. However, it is essential to understand that  V.V.V.V.V. is another Magister entirely, individual and unique, insofar as such terms apply above the Abyss."

I guess I was thinking of the quote "Another prophet shall arise, and bring fresh fever from the skies..."

Wellread - thank you for your input here. Please don't take my responses as discouraging further interaction. I'm familiar with the discussion of Babalon from The Vision and the Voice, though I have never considered Babalon to be anything like a Messiah figure. Though  Gunther gives lip service to not wanting to foster a false Soteriology, it seems almost precisely what he is doing. I guess one of the greatest challenges that I see with this line of thought and reasoning is that it appears to be (and I am open to being corrected if I am off base here) something created out of whole cloth by Gunther, and repeated by those who have aligned themselves with the Motta / Gunther A.'.A.'. group. I've also heard, though admittedly secondhand, that it has been posited by Gunther and/or his followers that his conception of VVVVV as messianic figure  figures in heavily in their claims to be the "one true" A.'.A.'.

Oh yeah, there is that one alright.

... it has been posited by Gunther and/or his followers that his conception of VVVVV as messianic figure  figures in heavily in their claims to be the "one true" A.'.A.'.

Well, thank ye Lord that we have finally found the "one true" A.'.A.'. amongst all those imposters and phoney saviors.

I've had a chance to look through the "Commentaries on the Holy Books" regarding the passage mentioned from Liber LXV, and from my reading it doesn't seem to support the idea of a Messiah.

Crowley's comment reads "This passage, purely lyrical, requires no special comment. It asserts the ultimate identity of all ideas with the Angel, including himself, whom he recognizes as united with Him in the triune relation of Father, Ruler, and Bridegroom, the source of his Being, the determinant of his Will, and the inspiration of his Joy and his Fertility."

To me, this reads as a further exploration of the relationship between Aspirant and Angel, not between a Messiah and someone in need of being saved. One of the most refreshing facets of Thelema (as I understand and experience it) is that we have no in-born original sin, no need of being "saved", and no need to look externally for a savior.

There is a mention of a "saviour" in Crowley's commentary to Chapter 1, Verse 37 ("So they shall reproach thy servant, saying: who hath set thee to save us?"), though I'm not certain that this speaks to the role of a Messianic figure.

The commentary to Chapter 1, Verse 58 further seems to strike out against the idea of Messianism, reading "But the whole idea of his relations with Mankind as a Redeemer proves phantasmagoric."

The idea of "one true" A.'.A.'. seems inherently flawed given the nature of the system, and especially so given the questionable provenance of the group most frequently associated with those claims. It even appears to me that Chapter 1 of Liber LXV addresses this very idea in verses 2-6, with each Aspirant writing the words as they understand them given their own perception and experiences, each somewhat different and unique, yet all flowing from that one source.

I remember being in attendance before one his (Gunther) lectures and seeing a high profile member in a stylized VVVVV t shirt. (I didnt stay for the lecture/workshop).

Messiah also has the same gematria number  as serpent from memory. Lets remember Crowley said:

(Crowley Image and text taken from one of the free Lashtal downloads complied by one Fra.IIO).

Also of note is the great paper done by James Eschelmann in the OTO system and its connection to the chakras/kundalini/serpent...../.....messiah.

Just a few musings.

You are correct about this! At one point I did some work exploring the correspondences between the two using gematria, and came up with some interesting insights.  If I'm not mistaken these two words are used in a graphic in the front of the Gunther book (inside a hexagram).

Ah, it's an olde, olde story. It comes down to this: "My group/belief/god can beat your group/belief/god; you are wrong and I am right, and thus I am superior to you."

Do you have a reference for the idea of a Thelemic "Messiah" in Gunther's writings or in those of his followers? What exactly is meant by "Messiah" in this context? The belief that there will be a literal person who will literally be born and become some kind of Thelemic "chosen one"? If so, what do they think the function of such a "chosen one" will be?

If it's that kind of belief you're talking about, I wouldn't say that that belief is *necessarily* antithetical to Thelema, but I would say that it's a belief outside the scope of Thelema. More broadly, I would say that it's an extremely goofy belief, and people who hold said belief deserve to be ridiculed. I would recommend pointing at them and laughing for prolonged periods of time.

What interests me is not so much the conception of VVVVV as a sort of Messiah but the way Gunther himself is being hailed in some quarters as Thelema's first world teacher. While that doesn't fit the messiah idea in the technical sense that Los puts forward it does appear to serve the human desire to have a guru or master to follow, who can tell you what's what and explain the doctrines of ones chosen cult. He seems to do that a lot and certainly has the devotion of his followers who hang off his every word and there is something of a cult of personality emerging.

"Let not the dwellers in Thebai and the temples thereof prate ever of the Pillars of Hercules and the Ocean of the West. Is not the Nile a beautiful water?"(LXV, V:49)

"There are purse-proud penniless ones that stand at the door of the tavern and revile the guests.
 The guests dally upon couches of mother-of-pearl in the garden; the noise of the foolish men is hidden from them.
 Only the inn-keeper feareth lest the favour of the king be withdrawn from him. 
Thus spake the Magister V.V.V.V.V. unto Adonai his God..." (LXV, IV:11-15)

"O my lord, my dove, my excellent one, how shall this word seem unto the children of men?

    And He answered him: Not as thou canst see." (LXV, I:51-52)

Dwtw

The words meshiach and nechesh are certainly equivalent, and this may provide a clue. They both equal 358.
In base 3, the decimal number 358 = 11121. If we reverse these digits we have 121111 = 418.

So the numbers 358 and 418 are decimal expressions which are reversals of each other in base 3. This suggests that the idea of the messiah/serpent figure is related to 418 and all of its associations, such as the letter Chet spelled in full, the word of the aeon Makhashanah, the key of the rituals Abrahadabra and the concept of TO MH - The Not.

There seems to be no textual basis in the Holy Books for the concept of a Thelemic 'messiah' per se, only certain persons who will come to expound mysteries in Liber AL, as well as another prophet at the dawn of the following Aeon. A messiah is an old aeon concept anyway. If that is something Gunther is proposing, it seems to be an idiosyncratic reading of the texts - something we're all allowed and encouraged to do, without expecting it to mean anything in a universal sense.

In Greek, the word is Messias = 656, close to the number of the Beast, and a rare number that is palindromic both in decimal and ternary, where it is 220022.

A Greek gematria equivalent of Messias is H TELETH - 'the rites', or 'the initiation' (into the mysteries). This suggests a link with Abrahadabra/418 as the key of the rituals, and "Hoor in his secret name and splendour is the Lord initiating". So perhaps the so-called 'messianic' functions have already been revealed, and it is Hoor who fulfills  this role?

Litlluw
RLG

According to Aleister Crowley the two most important Holy Books of Thelema are the three chapter long The Book of the Law, and The Vision and the Voice. The latter Holy Book consists of thirty so-called Aethyrs, starting with the thirtieth Aethyr, and ending with the first Aethyr

In the thread Correspondences between Crowley´s pre-1904 works and Liber AL - http://www.lashtal.com/forum/http://www.lashtal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=82737#p82737 - I mention that Crowley in the 7th Aethyr of The Vision and the Voice, referres to verse 29 and 30 of the first chapter of The Book the Law, concerning "the nature of Eden".

In the said Aethyr it is written that "[...] Eve, whom he [God] created for love, is tempted by the snake, Nechesh, who is Messiah her child. And the snake is the magical power, which hath destroyed the primordial equilibrium." 

The just mentioned quote from the second most important Holy Book of Thelema, stating that "the snake, Nechesh" "is Messiah", can be used as a textual basis in the Holy Books, for the concept of a Thelemic 'messiah'. And this concept of a "snake" as "Messiah", is found in the 7th Aethyr where Crowley concerning "the nature of Eden" referres to the most Holy Book of Thelema. The most Holy Book of Thelema contains words like "Burn upon their brows, o splendrous serpent!" (chapter 1, verse 18), "There is the dove, and there is the serpent." (chapter 1, verse 57), "The Sun, Strength & Sight, Light; these are for the servants of the Star & the Snake" (chapter 2, verse 21) "I am the Snake that giveth Knowledge & Delight and bright glory, and stir the hearts of men with drunkenness" (chapter 2, verse 22.) "I am the secret Serpent coiled about to spring: in my coiling there is joy." (chapter 2, verse 26.), and "O winged snake of light, Hadit!" (chapter 3, verse 38).   

A reason for not "officially" discussing such a concept of a Thelemic 'messiah'openly, might be the the risk of being accused of devil worship or Satanism, as the "ancient serpent" in the Bible  is associated with "the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray" (Revelation 12:9).

Serpent, Set, Satan, Hadit, South, etc, (add Kundalini-Shakti and ponder why this 'female' attribution is made in light of all the other 'male' ones for a nice trick if you can 'get it')... it all points to the same idea Crowley went over and again about Messiah being the Son, and the Sun, and 666 therefore the Beast, etc. Couple this with the HGA (Vau) being, at least, somewhat of a reflection of Kether, and you have the tune of the serpent power as the redeemer of humanity by virtue of it's "activation" in yogic practices.

This is pretty much common knowledge, yes?

Dwtw

It's quite a stretch to say that a cabalistic correspondence between the words for snake and messiah imply that this is a 'Thelemic' messiah being mentioned in this passage. The entire passage is quite Old Testamentary. I don't see where 'Eve' fits into the the Thelemic worldview, nor the 'creator God'. That's not to say that the references to them in V&V should be ignored; they are obviously part of the visions of the Aethyrs. But being mentioned doesn't make them 'Thelemic' necessarily.

Of course, from a cabalistic standpoint, if you substitute 'nechesh' for every instance of 'snake' or 'serpent' in Liber AL, then you are naturally allowing a connection to 'meshiach' simply by word-value alone. But the Hebrew words for 'shame', 'renewed' and 'the breastplate of the High Priest' also have the value of 358. Should these be included in the exegesis, or are they ignored because they don't appear in V&V?

We might say for argument's sake that the snake in Liber AL is the Messiah. This seems to be a reference to Hadit in almost all instances. So if Hadit is the Messiah, what is the import for Thelema? Is it simply along the lines of Azidonis' comments?

Technically, Messiah simply means 'anointed one', which is not quite the same thing as the Redeemer, the one who brings redemption for original sin. Nor is it quite the same thing as the Savior. And one would expect that a 'Thelemic messiah' if such a thing existed, would not be confined to the Jewish definition of a leader of the tribes of Israel from the lineage of King David. Focusing on just the 'leader' aspect, if one expects the 'Thelemic messiah' to be a future leader of the 93 Current, that is not an impossibility, but is certainly doesn't seem justified by the quote from V&V given above. In the aethyrs we get a cabalistic introduction of the messiah concept. But at the end of the day, and the end of that book, you get "Horus, the Crowned and Conquering Child". So a lot depends on what one thinks will constitute a 'messiah'.

Litlluw
RLG

"[...] Eve, whom he [God] created for love, is tempted by the snake, Nechesh, who is Messiah her child. And the snake is the magical power, which hath destroyed the primordial equilibrium." Quote from The Vision and the Voice, The Cry of the 7th Aethyr, Which is Called DEO. 

The emphasis in the quote from the 7th Aethyr, given at the top of this posting, is not on "a cabalistic correspondence between the words for snake and messiah". In the said quote it is directly stated that "the snake, Nechesh" [...] "is Messiah" (note that Messiah is written with an initial capital letter), and that "the snake is the magical power, which hath destroyed the primordial equilibrium." 

"The Devil does not exist. It is a false name invented by the Black Brothers to imply a Unity in their ignorant muddle of dispersions. A devil who had unity would be a God[.]

"The Devil" is, historically, the God of any people that one personally dislikes. This has led to so much confusion of thought that THE BEAST 666 has preferred to let names stand as they are, and to proclaim simply that AIWAZ — the solar-phallic-hermetic "Lucifer" is His own Holy Guardian Angel, and "The Devil" SATAN or HADIT of our particular unit of the Starry Universe. This serpent, SATAN, is not the enemy of Man, but He who made Gods of our race, knowing Good and Evil; He bade "Know Thyself!" and taught Initiation. He is "the Devil" of the Book of Thoth, and His emblem is BAPHOMET, the Androgyne who is the hieroglyph of arcane perfection." Source: Chapter 21 Of Black Magick: of the Main Types of the Operations of Magick Art: and of the Powers of the Sphinx. [part] II - http://hermetic.com/crowley/book-4/chap21.html

In footnote number 11 to The Cry of the 17th Aethyr, Which is Called TAN, in The Vision and the Voice, Crowley provides the following definition of Hadit: "Hadit, i.e. any point which one chooses to consider as being the centre from which to contemplate the universe." Source: http://hermetic.com/crowley/the-vision-and-the-voice/aethyr17.html

In footnote number 29 to The Cry of the 21st Aethyr, Which is Called ASP, in The Vision and the Voice, a function of Hadit is explained thus: "In the Ontology of the New Aeon, whose prime theorem is 0 = 2, Kether exists only as the Child of any Marriage of one particular Hadit with one particular aspect of Nuit. There are thus as many Kethers as there are positive possibilities. [...]" Source: http://hermetic.com/crowley/the-vision-and-the-voice/aethyr21.html (In the footnote number 41 on page 179 in J. Daniel Gunther's book Initiation In The Æon of the Child - The Inward Journey, Kether is defined as the "All containing" "(the One) which = None.")

In "The comment called "D"" to The Book of the Law, Hadit is described as an ideas without limit, in the following way: "The first two chapters of this Book describe Ideas without limit; the third concerns a fixed Event due to one union of them, namely the coming of HERU-RA-HA." Source: http://hermetic.com/legis/djeridensis/chapter-iii.html

The introduction to the long footnote number 17 on page 169 in J. Daniel Gunther's book Initiation In The Æon of the Child - The Inward Journey, reads like this: "Cf. chapter 5 of this book [Liber LXV]. The symbolism of the advent of the New Aeon, the Lord of the Aeon (Heru-ra-ha) and the Messiah of this Aeon (V.V.V.V.V.) often overlap and are therefore at times indistinguishable. These symbols have an inherent elasticity due to their Universal character. [...]"

At the end of my former posting in this thread I stated that I thougt a reason for not "officially" discussing such a concept of a Thelemic 'messiah' openly, might be the the risk of being accused of devil worship or Satanism, as the "ancient serpent" in the Bible  is associated with "the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray" (Revelation 12:9).

After a closer reading of J. Daniel Gunther's book Initiation In The Æon of the Child - The Inward Journey, I do not think the just mentioned possible reason, is Gunther's reason for not being more open than he is in this book when discussing what he on page 169 calls "the Messiah of this Aeon (V.V.V.V.V.)". (On page 172 and 173 In the said book Gunther quotes and supports the following from Hymenaeus Beta's editorial introduction to Book Four: "Given Satanism's ludicrous modern connotation of sociopathic criminality, to term Thelemites 'Satanists', as has sometime been done, is slander or libel.")

J. Daniel Gunther is not more open than he is in the said book when discussing what he on page 169 calls "the Messiah of this Aeon (V.V.V.V.V.)", because he adheres to the following contained within chapter 41 of The Book of Lies, and quoted by him on page 125:

"In V.V.V.V.V. is the Great Work perfect.

Therefore none is that pertaineth not to V.V.V.V.V.

In any may he manifest; yet in one hath he chosen to manifest; and this one hath given His ring as a Seal of Authority to the Work of the A∴A∴ through the colleagues of FRATER PERDURABO.

But this concerns themselves and their administration; it concerneth none below the grade of Exempt Adept, and such an one only by command.

Also, since below the Abyss Reason is Lord, let men seek by experiment, and not by Questionings. [...]" Source: http://hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib333.html

"[...] V.V.V.V.V. is the motto of a Master of the Temple (or so much He disclosed to the Exempt Adepts), referred to in Liber LXI. It is he who is responsible for the whole of the development of the A∴A∴ movement which has been associated with the publication of THE EQUINOX; and His utterance is enshrined in the sacred writings.

It is useless to enquire into His nature; to do so leads to certain disaster. Authority from him is exhibited, when necessary, to the proper persons, though in no case to anyone below the grade of Exempt Adept. The person enquiring into such matters is politely requested to work, and not to ask questions about matters which in no way concern him." Source: http://hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib333.html

In verse 29 and verse 30 in Liber LXI, V.V.V.V.V. is described in the following way:

"29. Also one V.V.V.V.V. arose, an exalted adept of the rank of Master of the Temple (or this much He disclosed to the Exempt Adepts) and His utterance is enshrined in the Sacred Writings. 30. Such are Liber Legis, Liber Cordis Cincti Serpente, Liber Liberi vel Lapidis Lazuli and such others whose existence may one day be divulged unto you. Beware lest you interpret them either in the Light or in the darkness, for only in L.V.X. may they be understood." Source: http://hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib61.html

Conclusion:
Above I have quoted warnings against openly discussing V.V.V.V.V., and Liber LXI's claim that V.V.V.V.V.'s "utterance is enshrined in" The Book of the Law, which any reader according to the latter book's so called "THE COMMENT.", is strictly warned against discussing the content of. I concider these the most likely reasons why J. Daniel Gunther is not more open than he is in his book Initiation In The Æon of the Child - The Inward Journey, when discussing "the Messiah of this Aeon (V.V.V.V.V.)".

It is a type of oxymoron.

The one preaching anti-mind-slavery saying that according to a rule x, y cannot occur, is a cop-out at best.

If there is some uniting Thelemic figure, surely that figure would be able to make many changes. It is a lot of power for anyone to have.

I do not think that the 'more radical' Thelemites would go for the type of chub-rubbery that goes along with a courtship such as would occur around said public figure.

I suppose it would have to play itself out, as the Wheel turns. Regardless, if the so-called "World Teacher" actually had a Word, why is it such a close-circle, pay-up-front type of deal?

One may also look at other "World Teacher" customs, and notice trends. There are many examples; any Dalai Lama (and really any Lama for that matter), the Pope, and down the list to include every religious figurehead, because that's what it will turn into.

And then, the radicals will seek to preserve the tradition, while the mainstream continues to spread its construct aimed at furthering the mainstream agenda.

And so forth, and so on... it's all in the Book, right?

On the basis that "There is no God but Man", then surely there is no Messiah but Man, the full and lucid performance of one's True Will being the living realisation of one's own Annointed Selfhood.

There were times in his life that AC did aspire and actively intrigue to become the World Teacher - Churton's biography is quite informative on this.  He said little about the Antichrist, but what he did say, I seem to recall, was interesting.  But that would probably require some consideration of the role of the Beast in the 'Revelations' scenario: 666 is so loosely and regularly mistaken for the number of Satan.

Jack Parsons, of course, was not so coy at coming forward. 

The Book of the Law, chapter III, verse 34.: "But your holy place shall be untouched throughout the centuries: though with fire and sword it be burnt down & shattered, yet an invisible house there standeth, and shall stand until the fall of the Great Equinox; when Hrumachis shall arise and the double-wanded one assume my throne and place. Another prophet shall arise, and bring fresh fever from the skies; another woman shall awakethe lust & worship of the Snake; another soul of God and beast shall mingle in the globed priest; another sacrifice shall stain the tomb; another king shall reign; and blessing no longer be poured To the Hawk-headed mystical Lord!" Source: http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/engccxx.htm

Biblical terms like 'Eve' and 'snake' that are mentioned numerous places in The Vision and the Voice, are a part of Thelema, because Crowley considered the latter book to be the second most important Holy book of Thelema after The Book of the Law. In The Vision and the Voice, in The Cry of the 8th Aethyr, Which is Called ZID, Aiwass, "the author of The Book of the Law", is supposedly speaking, referring directly to The Book of the Law, and stating: "The light is come to the darkness, and the darkness is made light. Then is light married with light, and the child of their love is that other darkness, wherein they abide that have lost name and form. Therefore did I kindle him that had not understanding, and in The Book of the Law did I write the secrets of truth that are like unto a star and a snake and a sword." Source: http://hermetic.com/crowley/the-vision-and-the-voice/aethyr8.html [Emphasis added.]

(According to footnote number 1 to the 8th Aethyr, Which is Called ZID, ZID "[...] refer to the attainment of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel." Footnote number 2 to the the 8th Aethyr, Which is Called ZID, reads like this: "Aiwass [written with Hebrew letters] then did "kindle" in order to bring us to the N.O.X. of Pan." This footnote relates to the following statement in The Cry of the 8th Aethyr, a statement which is attributed to Aiwass: "The light is come to the darkness, and the darkness is made light. Then is light married with light, and the child of their love is that other darkness, wherein they abide that have lost name and form. Therefore did I kindle him that had not understanding, and in The Book of the Law did I write the secrets of truth that are like unto a star and a snake and a sword." [Emphasis added.]

In my former posting in this thread I wrote: In "The comment called "D"" to The Book of the Law, Hadit is described as an ideas without limit, in the following way:

"The first two chapters of this Book describe Ideas without limit; the third concerns a fixed Event due to one union of them, namely the coming of HERU-RA-HA." Source: http://hermetic.com/legis/djeridensis/chapter-iii.html

In the quote from The Book of the Law, chapter III, verse 34, given at the top of this posting, it is written that "Another prophet shall arise", and that "another woman shall awakethe lust & worship of the Snake; [...]." The in The Book of the Law, chapter III, verse 34, just aforementioned "Snake", understood both as "Hadit" "an idea without limit", and as "Messiah", seems to indicate that this "Snake" and/or "Hadit" and/or "Messiah", is of a more permanent and lasting nature than Thelema.

What that is supposedly Aiwass, the author of The Book of the Law, is in the 8th Aethyr in The Vision and the Voice, introduced with the following words:

"There appears in the stone a tiny spark of light. It grows a little, and seems almost to go out, and grows again, and it is blown about the Aethyr, and by the wind that blows it is it fanned, and now it gathers strength, and darts like a snake or a sword, and now it steadies itself, and is like a Pyramid of light that filleth the whole Aethyr.

And in the Pyramid is one like unto an Angel, yet at the same time he is the Pyramid, and he hath no form because he is of the substance of light, and he taketh not form upon him, for though by him is form visible, he maketh it visible only to destroy it." Source: http://hermetic.com/crowley/the-vision-and-the-voice/aethyr8.html [Emphasis added.]

"There is dew on all the fire. Every drop is the quintessence of the ecstasy of stars ( http://hermetic.com/crowley/the-vision-and-the-voice/aethyr1.html) ."

This is clearly a reference - and a confirmation of it's importancy in a thelemic context - to the gnostic thought of Mercury (dew of the spermia) as a stimulant of sulphur (prana; kundalini engergy), that the dew in fact stimulates the electro magnetic streams in the human body.

I think we get closer to what the thinking is of the AA connected with Gunther (and the OTO most aligned to that branch ) by looking at the Gematria involved (an insight that occurred I believe after initiation in the Aeon of the child book).

AA=222
OTO=666

=888 usually equated with Jesus ala the Messiah.

888 = Messiah (358 usually) when written in full.

Jesus also interchangeable with the various Solar current Gods of Tiphereth. OTO being a largely being an Order of the Solar phallic current.

But Jesus gematria connections aside I am guessing that the Messiah reference is more alluding to the growing  and continued unity between that branch of the AA and the OTO.

That the final total unity of these two pieces/orders joined will be as a type of Messiah VVVVV.

(Original Post:) defile959: "I am wondering whether anyone here has encountered the idea of a Thelemic “Messiah” in any of Crowley’s writings, or anything that could potentially support this line of thinking."

Yes, after the Editorial AC starts out his The Equinox, Volume I, Number 1, with An Account of A.·.A.·., where he clearly interprets V.V.V.V.V. as the Messiah:

"This society is in the communion of those who have most capacity for light; they are united in truth, and their Chief is the Light of the World himself, V.V.V.V.V., the One Anointed in Light, the single teacher for the human race, the Way, the Truth, and the Life." (Source: , Keith Readdy's book, One Truth and One Spirit: Aleister Crowley's Spiritual Legacy, page 114 in the 2018 edition.)

defile959 REPLY #86525: "Though Gunther gives lip service to not wanting to foster a false Soteriology, it seems almost precisely what he is doing. I guess one of the greatest challenges that I see with this line of thought and reasoning is that it appears to be (and I am open to being corrected if I am off base here) something created out of whole cloth by Gunther, and repeated by those who have aligned themselves with the Motta / Gunther A.’.A.’. group."

This line of thought and reasoning is not something created out of whole cloth by Gunther, AC does also state that "the uterance" of V.V.V.V.V. "... is enshrined in the Sacred Writings. 30. Such are Liber Legis [= The Book of the Law], Liber Cordis Cincti Serpente, Liber Liberi vel Lapidis Lazuli and such others whose existence may one day be divulged unto you." (Source: Verse 29. and 30. in Liber 61 or Liber vel Causae, written by AC in 1907)

"I’ve also heard, though admittedly secondhand, that it has been posited by Gunther and/or his followers that his conception of VVVVV as messianic figure figures in heavily in their claims to be the “one true” A.’.A.’."

"... I do think there is a precedent for the concept in the Holy Books themselves. The initials come from there before Crowley was a full 8=3. He [= Gunther] explains a good deal of it in his lecture according to friends in Sekhet Ma'at who attended it. Gunther teaches that there are 5 characters in the Holy Books, Adonai, Magis" (Source: by frateruranus » Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:14 am - - - http://www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4696) I don't know if the "conception of VVVVV as messianic figure", "... figures in heavily in their claims to be the “one true” A.’.A.’.", but it is derived from Crowley’s writings.

(Original Post:) defile959: “I am wondering whether anyone here has encountered the idea of a Thelemic “Messiah” in any of Crowley’s writings, or anything that could potentially support this line of thinking.”

(Reply:) wellreadwellbred: "Yes, after the Editorial AC starts out his The Equinox, Volume I, Number 1, with An Account of A.·.A.·., where he clearly interprets V.V.V.V.V. as the Messiah:

“This society is in the communion of those who have most capacity for light; they are united in truth, and their Chief is the Light of the World himself, V.V.V.V.V., the One Anointed in Light, the single teacher for the human race, the Way, the Truth, and the Life.” (Source: , Keith Readdy’s book, One Truth and One Spirit: Aleister Crowley’s Spiritual Legacy, page 114 in the 2018 edition.)"

(Me:) That Crowley quote from "An Account of the A.'.A.'." is full of imagery from the Christian scriptures. I think the implication is scandalous but not in the sense of a *separate* Thelemic messiah. I think it's scandalous in the sense that it implies there is only one "messiah" (i.e. "single teacher for the human race") who has historically spoken through more than Crowley and his inspired books.

nice pondering
nice thread
welcome hermitas
and nice pic

i like Crowley’s style of writing
one can fall into them
be whirled around
and lifted up to magic
before you hit the ground
again

the writing is possibly magic
and in magic one can enter into a terrain
possibly a collective
a tuat of sorts

along side churchianity
there were
gnostic hermetic templar underground currents
so the pregnant imagery is alive

draw from it if you like
tap in

the terrain can change
as well as you

@Tiger

[tequila warning]

He’s right there
Over there
To the right
Staring into me

“What will you make of me?”
“What Will you?”
“Do you get it?”
“Do you get it?”

Shit
What a ride.
Is it real?
Does it matter?
If it gets you there?

Wait.
Does it matter?
Wait.
Wait.
God.
It matters more than anything.
Wait.

Did you really believe it?
Master?

There’s no telling.

@shiva said:

"defile959" wrote:
I’m wondering whether anyone here has encountered the idea of a Thelemic “Messiah” in any of Crowley’s writings, or anything that could potentially support this line of thinking.

Oh, there’s the Liber AL lines about somebody coming to follow that will explain it all. I nominate Achad for the fulfillment of this prophecy. Crowley did too. And there are other lines that suggest somebody else will be coming along for one purpose or another.

The Second Beast of Revelation 13

“And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.”

There’s always that (^) little vision.

But whether the concept is Thelemic or Biblical, it’s a universal archetypal belief. The Jews are still waiting for their Messiah, and we (the chosen ;)) are not holding our breaths in extended pranayama, are we?

Everybody wants somebody to come along and save them or to enforce their religious beliefs upon the rest of humanity.

There are also the lines, “There cometh one to follow thee: he shall expound it,” and “Change not as much as the style of a letter; for behold! thou, o prophet, shalt not behold all these mysteries hidden therein. The child of thy bowels, he shall behold them. Expect him not from the East, nor from the West; for from no expected house cometh that child.”

So there’s a few hints about subsequent revealers … but of a Messiah?

@threefold31 said:

There seems to be no textual basis in the Holy Books for the concept of a Thelemic ‘messiah’ per se, only certain persons who will come to expound mysteries in Liber AL, as well as another prophet at the dawn of the following Aeon. A messiah is an old aeon concept anyway.

and:

Technically, Messiah simply means ‘anointed one’, which is not quite the same thing as the Redeemer, the one who brings redemption for original sin. Nor is it quite the same thing as the Savior.

and:

In the aethyrs we get a cabalistic introduction of the messiah concept. But at the end of the day, and the end of that book, you get “Horus, the Crowned and Conquering Child”. So a lot depends on what one thinks will constitute a ‘messiah’.

@wellreadwellbred said:

A reason for not “officially” discussing such a concept of a Thelemic ‘messiah’openly, might be the the risk of being accused of devil worship or Satanism, as the “ancient serpent” in the Bible is associated with “the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray” (Revelation 12:9).

@hermitas: said:

(Me:) That Crowley quote from “An Account of the A.’.A.’.” is full of imagery from the Christian scriptures. I think the implication is scandalous but not in the sense of a *separate* Thelemic messiah. I think it’s scandalous in the sense that it implies there is only one “messiah” (i.e. “single teacher for the human race”) who has historically spoken through more than Crowley and his inspired books.

Quoted for emphasis and future reference.

addl reference:

thread: lashtal.com/forums/topic/hence-my-entire-alias/

"Hence My Entire Alias" (an anagram poem based on my name michael sean tierney)
<br>
Cease, I am inherently=michael sean tierney
Thence amnesia I rely=michael sean tierney
Ah trials ye eminence=michael sean tierney
In Thelema ye can rise=michael sean tierney
<br>
A Christ name eye line=michael sean tierney
Me satanic in he leery=michael sean tierney
A scalier enemy thine=michael sean tierney
In me lie Satan cheery=michael sean tierney
<br>
A Christian enemy eel=michael sean tierney
A tenancy Irish melee=michael sean tierney
Chain me Tierney seal=michael sean tierney
Me resiliency aneath=michael sean tierney
<br>
Satanic helm eye rein=michael sean tierney
In earthly cinema see=michael sean tierney
Thelemic year insane=michael sean tierney
A crime insanely thee=michael sean tierney
<br>
Sane elite machinery=michael sean tierney
Archenemy alien ties=michael sean tierney
Hail insane cemetery=michael sean tierney
In cement hearsay lie=michael sean tierney
<br>
In hearsay I elect men=michael sean tierney
Lenient hearsay mice=michael sean tierney
Hearsay nice? Let me in!=michael sean tierney
Eminent hearsay lice=michael sean tierney
<br>
A machine eerily sent=michael sean tierney
Shamanic eyelet rein=michael sean tierney
In chase ye ire lament=michael sean tierney
Limey teacher insane=michael sean tierney
<br>
A seemly inheritance=michael sean tierney
Ancient my hearse lie=michael sean tierney
Eye means I clear hint=michael sean tierney
<br>
Ah Aleister eminency=michael sean tierney
I leery me Satan niche=michael sean tierney
Is an elite archenemy?=michael sean tierney
Merely asinine teach=michael sean tierney
<br>
Ether eminency alias=michael sean tierney
Aleister enemy chain=michael sean tierney
Hence, my entire alias=michael sean tierney
Heretics lye in a name=michael sean tierney
<br>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Zbnvh6I4k4

"Well I hope we're not too messianic
Or a trifle too satanic
But we love to play the blues"

- The Rolling Stones

@hermitas
did you eat the worm at the bottom of the mezcal ?

“I am the Snake that giveth Knowledge & Delight and bright glory, and stir the hearts of men with drunkenness”
(chapter 2, verse 22.)
“I am the secret Serpent coiled about to spring: in my coiling there is joy.” (chapter 2, verse 26.),
“O winged snake of light, Hadit!” (chapter 3, verse 38).

there is no question mark
unless it was all an illusion

@Tiger

🙂

No, no blind creatures of the slime.
Just been a while since I believed hard.
Miss it.
Probably gonna make another run at it.
We'll see.

@hermitas
Believing hard might get you in trouble;
but might set you up for an experience;
which might get you in trouble.

Or leave you wondering;
when you hit the ground,
that what happened couldn’t have been real ?

But the experience remains in the background.
Administer.

—————————————————————

defile959 said
To me, this reads as a further exploration of the relationship between Aspirant and Angel, not between a Messiah and someone in need of being saved. One of the most refreshing facets of Thelema (as I understand and experience it) is that we have no in-born original sin, no need of being “saved”, and no need to look externally for a savior.

with each Aspirant writing the words as they understand them given their own perception and experiences, each somewhat different and unique, yet all flowing from that one source.

threefold31 said
an idiosyncratic reading of the texts – something we’re all allowed and encouraged to do, without expecting it to mean anything in a universal sense.

Crowley went over and again about Messiah being the Son, and the Sun, and 666 therefore the Beast, etc. Couple this with the HGA (Vau) being, at least, somewhat of a reflection of Kether, and you have the tune of the serpent power as the redeemer of humanity by virtue of it’s “activation” in yogic practices.

wellread said
proposing, it seems to be an idiosyncratic reading of the texts – something we’re all allowed and encouraged to do,

Azidonis said
Crowley went over and again about Messiah being the Son, and the Sun, and 666 therefore the Beast, etc. Couple this with the HGA (Vau) being, at least, somewhat of a reflection of Kether, and you have the tune of the serpent power as the redeemer of humanity by virtue of it’s “activation” in yogic practices.

threefold31 said
Technically, Messiah simply means ‘anointed one’

But at the end of the day, and the end of that book, you get “Horus, the Crowned and Conquering Child”. So a lot depends on what one thinks will constitute a ‘messiah’.
-----------------
nice food for thought
and what of NEMO ?

@Tiger

NEMO?
A man knows nothing of NEMO.
Agreed.
Agreeable food for thought.
Trouble?
Trouble is it's been too long.

Are there really people looking for the coming of some human messiah-figure? I'd really prefer Thelema to be as I prefer. Hmmm. We *are* in the Era of the Hierophant.. I wouldn't mind an excellent teacher coming along. But a messiah? To do what? Fulfill a Revelation? Convert by the sword? Those are my suspicions, exhortations to "convert not" notwithstanding.

It makes me shake my head. Hopefully my suspicions are suspect.

@hermitas
Whats been too long ?

Waiting for a physical messiah ?

An inner teacher
that may or may not lead you to
an excellent teacher ?

That might reflect, model and augment;
the star in you ;
administer self realization
amongst the crumbling edifice ?

@Tiger

It's been too long since I got swept up in experience. Been in trouble before, for sure. But I find myself wanting a little religion again amid all the reason and psychology.

No, there's no waiting for a physical messiah here. lol. I just don't think it's about that at all.

But you see them?
Over there?
That insane mob?
That enormous ocean of people?
They make things happen.
They make their dreams come true.

@hermitas
well get a little religion
get a little reason
get a little psychology
look at the ocean
of people
making things happen
from dreams
Diana of the Ephesians
come true

Rising from the caldron is a stream of light.

The right leading of the new living substance
in the path of the True Will
is to be a talisman
of use in any event.

ART
The Equinox Volume III No. V by THE MASTER THERION a short essay on the Tarot of The Egyptians The Book of Thoth

over there
i see them
dreaming
the light of the world
working through all

@Tiger

I will
I will
I will

Thanks
Interesting conversation

Crowley went over and again about Messiah being the Son, and the Sun, and 666 therefore the Beast, etc.

And the Angel that hath spoken with me before, saith to me: The eye of His benignancy is opened; therefore veileth he thine eyes from the vision. Manfully hast thou endured; yet, hast thou been man, thou hadst not endured; and hadst thou been wholly that which thou art, thou shouldst have been caught up in the full vision that is unspeakable for Horror.

when is the sun not a son?
when it's a daughter.

maybe it's just me that sees things upside down an opposite to the solar phallic worship In the southern Hemisphere and Aboriginal Legends the sun was female moon was male .. which makes sense if Thoth is the moon.

Couple this with the HGA (Vau) being, at least, somewhat of a reflection of Kether, and you have the tune of the serpent power as the redeemer of humanity by virtue of it’s “activation” in yogic practices.

Activation of the serpent in Yogic Practises??? ... curiouser and curiouser ....enquiring minds ...I'm guessing this doesn't get discussed openly.

m: Activation of the serpent in Yogic Practises??? … curiouser and curiouser …. I’m guessing this doesn’t get discussed openly.

Oh, it's discussed rather openly, here and there.
It's called Kundalini Yoga.

https://youtu.be/aOPq0HV7B7k

@shiva Oh, it’s discussed rather openly, here and there.
It’s called Kundalini Yoga.

So then, Serpent = life itself or a symbiotic part of?

@tiger Monkey Riding Goat Video

The monkey reminds me of the magician.. evolved enough to know to use a base part of itself for a higher need (evolvement). Victim Perpetrator relationship. Monkey not evolved enough to k̶n̶o̶w̶ err consider the expense to the goats as separate beings to his world. He knows he is annoying the goats but doesn't consider them.

Reminds me of autism.... something part of my own work..... that particular part of evolvement.. evolved enough to know but missing that "consider" bit... https://www.mayet.com.au/blog/

m: So then, Serpent = life itself or a symbiotic part of?

The inner core of our brain is called the "reptilian" brain. It's mostly first circuit, survival programming. So we have a lot in common with serpents, deep down. Hadit tells us, "I am life, and the giver of life." Also, "I am the secret Serpent coiled about to spring .." So, Life or Symbol? He says, "I am life ..." I guess there's a hint toward the real thing here.