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Azidonis
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31/05/2011 9:02 pm  

93,

This comes up a lot, and so it seemed a good idea to make a spot for it.

Would you, if you had the ability/influence, "re-unite" the various lineages of the A:.A:.?

If you could, how would you propose to do it?

In an instance of non-reconciliation, which group would you give "sole leadership" to? Or would you?

If you wouldn't try to "re-unite" the A:.A:. lines, why?

Finally, what brings you to your decision, and what ramifications or outcomes might you expect from such a decision?

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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31/05/2011 9:23 pm  

93 Az,

In my opinion I would not re unify groups claiming the organisation of A A. The A A is in my opinion not something which belongs to any one group any more than any other power group which promotes one or other interpretation of the writings supplied. Each may interpret the way as one is led, through study and contemplation, in conjunction with ones own attempts to ascend.
You never learn to climb by following the words of previous climbers alone, but by climbing yourself, using your teachers words as a guide. When your teacher has demonstrated his ability in the arts you wish to learn then why would one wish to use spectacles to see with when you have been supplied perfectly good eyes.

Kindest regards,

RTh


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einDoppelganger
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31/05/2011 10:17 pm  

Would that include the Theosophists?

😉

Crowley did consider her a "member" of the A.'.A,'.

I'm sure if there were a way to make money on the A.'.A.'. someone would have trademarked it by now and sued the other claimants.

Leave the groups as they are, for better or worse. Its better than a hegemony.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
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31/05/2011 10:43 pm  

I'd leave the various A.'.A.'. groups as they are; let them follow their own course. The relationship between the mystical hierarchy and the organisation "on the ground" was always a tenuous one, it seems to me. Blavatsky was recognised by Crowley as a Master of the Temple, without having gone through the various examinations along the way. Ditto Eckenstein, who was I think an Ipsissimus. Sometimes I think that, like the Tao or the Kia, the less said of it the better.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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 Anonymous
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31/05/2011 11:06 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
Sometimes I think that, like the Tao or the Kia, the less said of it the better.

For those who find this analogy satisfactory, I quite agree. 🙂


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Michael Staley
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MANIO - it's all in the egg
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31/05/2011 11:22 pm  

It was, I think, The Voice of the Silence which prompted Crowley to recognise Blavatsky as a Master, so perhaps there is something in your cruel jibe after all.


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Azidonis
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01/06/2011 12:57 am  

93,

So far, all votes are for no... what then is this "unite under one banner/lineage" thing that continually arises, if all of a sudden no one thinks it should be so?

Interesting input/output at this point...

93 93/93


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einDoppelganger
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01/06/2011 1:03 am  

I hadn't noticed an overwhelming trend of AA lineages seeking to unify. It always strikes me that they are generally happy as long as their validity isn't challenged...


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amadan-De
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01/06/2011 1:07 am  
"Shiva" wrote:
When A.'.A.'. is used on the physical plane, sometimes people do and say the funniest things.

Emphasis added. 😉


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Azidonis
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01/06/2011 2:10 am  

I'll be damned I typed this long post and went to Ctrl+C to copy it before I sent, and pressed Ctrl+V instead, pasting a website link over the entire thing. 🙁

I may type it up again soon. We'll see though, I have a 10 page paper on the HGA due tomorrow.

The short version: this isn't about the lineages, any of them, wanting to unify. Some unify, some break apart.

It's about the division as seen on the extreme Outer that's more appropriate to the topic. You know what I mean... for the beginner they may start with "I want to join the A:.A:.", followed by "which A:.A:.", then followed by numerous bouts of confusion.

I'll write the post in full again a little later, I guess.

For now, here's an idea... how about a completely un-biased Website called the "A:.A:. Registry" or something, maybe something more conspicuously named, listing the various schools and their histories? How about Thelemapedia? Does this information exist there? Or has it suffered the penalty of media, that the printers that print the material show only what they want how they want (which I would not be so quick to accuse Paul of... its more rhetoric)?

Couldn't such a registry have sections that are editable only by them and the site mods? Then people could look through the varying schools of thought, maybe get examples, and then choose for him/her self as is best suited to their own natures.

It's just a silly idea...

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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01/06/2011 2:39 am  

IMO, when seen from a bigger picture they are all variations from the same lineage, the lineage that produced Aleister Crowley. They are united in "Do what thou wilt..." etc.


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Azidonis
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01/06/2011 4:23 am  
"zardoz" wrote:
IMO, when seen from a bigger picture they are all variations from the same lineage, the lineage that produced Aleister Crowley. They are united in "Do what thou wilt..." etc.

Agreed.

Did you have that same opinion when you had just heard of the A:.A:. however many years ago? Honest question, not sarcasm.


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einDoppelganger
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01/06/2011 4:29 am  

You are right Azidonis , it is all very confusing to a newcomer. It is compounded by teh anxiety that all your enthusiasm and good intentions may get funneled into "the wrong group" when you see all the options.

I seem to recall seeing an "unbiased" website years back that collected the different lineages and explained their history and claims with contact info. Its not a bad idea if someone wanted to create such a beast. It might be nice to allow entries to be added by registered users so lineages have control over their own entry. It would require some care to be sure the registrant does in fact represent the linage in question but a weblink / email conversation could resolve that.

You should set such a thing up. It would be a great service to newcomers and could be a sticky link on Lashtal!


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Azidonis
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01/06/2011 4:48 am  

93,

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
You are right Azidonis , it is all very confusing to a newcomer. It is compounded by teh anxiety that all your enthusiasm and good intentions may get funneled into "the wrong group" when you see all the options.

I seem to recall seeing an "unbiased" website years back that collected the different lineages and explained their history and claims with contact info. Its not a bad idea if someone wanted to create such a beast. It might be nice to allow entries to be added by registered users so lineages have control over their own entry. It would require some care to be sure the registrant does in fact represent the linage in question but a weblink / email conversation could resolve that.

You should set such a thing up. It would be a great service to newcomers and could be a sticky link on Lashtal!

I may add it as a feature to my own website, once I get it up and running.

I'll gladly take suggestions/links.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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01/06/2011 5:14 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
"zardoz" wrote:
IMO, when seen from a bigger picture they are all variations from the same lineage, the lineage that produced Aleister Crowley. They are united in "Do what thou wilt..." etc.

Agreed.

Did you have that same opinion when you had just heard of the A:.A:. however many years ago? Honest question, not sarcasm.

No, I wasn't able to see much of a bigger picture at first.


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 Anonymous
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01/06/2011 11:02 am  

The A.'.A.'. was originally formulated as a single order so it seems it would be a good idea to try to get the various groups back together again. The result might be a somewhat different beast than originally intended but that may be for the best.

How to do it? Maybe have some kind of inquisition. One lineage could decide that they are going to lead the process and invite all the others to swear allegiance. If they don't, formally cut them off from the current. And possibly torture tham with hot coals. 😈


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 Anonymous
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01/06/2011 11:16 am  

I fail to see the problem.. At the end of the day it is all one lineage stemming from AC, right? The idea of different lineages comes from various well known adepts who have come from the one line and have had students under them, thus forming the Wolfe lineage, or the McMurtry lineage.. Are there massive differences in what these strands do? Is there a need for such orthodoxy and union in the A.'.A.'.? I am genuinely curious as to what the big fuss is about here.


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 Anonymous
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01/06/2011 12:41 pm  

I think the fuss is just because it is not the way it was originally intended to be. So this raises the question should we try to make it as it was intended?

I guess also, the situation today is that you cannot join the A.'.A.'., you just join an A.'.A.'. group. If they were all united under one Head they could realistically call themself The A.'.A.'..


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Shiva
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01/06/2011 3:55 pm  
"nashimiron" wrote:
If they don't, formally cut them off from the current. And possibly torture tham with hot coals. 😈

You misunderstand the process! There is, of course, the need to "expel" all foreign elements. Those that remain standing are traditionally met in court. That is, they must be sued and reduced to poverty. Then one needs to tell horror stories about their "lineage" and its falsities.


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ozzzz666
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01/06/2011 4:10 pm  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

I haven't posted here in quite some time, and to be honest, that trend will most likely continue. However, this is a topic that really hits home for me, so I wanted to throw my perspective into the octagon.

I've never claimed to be any serious scholar, but I have been interested in joining THE A.'.A.'. for many years. I have been watching all these threads hoping for something to surface that would give me some direction as far as A.'.A.'. is concerned, but it only causes more confusion. The various things I have heard first and second hand in the real world regarding some of these "lineages" lead me to believe that they are all invalid, and this troubles me.

Here is the problem for me personally. Where is THE A.'.A.'.? Which one? I mean I have a couple of preferences that would be at the top of my list were I to decide to just say "To hell with it, I'll take a chance", but I have issues with doing that. What if I join a "Lineage" that turns out to be crap? What if I suddenly realize that I have been assigned to a "Neophite" who hasn't done the work? The Order only knocks once upon my door, right? Or does it... Who decides? What if new documents are released? Who says they are or are not valid?

I know that is a lot of "what ifs", and that fear is failure and all, but it is just too sketchy for me (and MANY others) in its current state.

If various ego attachments make the current lineages unable to co-operate to either "elect" or "select" a Head, not to rule over the others with an iron fist, but to be the final word on things like "The Word", documents that may be put into circulation, curriculum beyond what is published, or whatever else might need to be clarified between them, then what would make me think that any of them have attained, much less are in contact with The Secret Chiefs?

For me, it isn't about Titles or grades, I can continue the work on my own, but I understand that there IS material that I will not have access to until I "Join", and this too troubles me. If I join an invalid lineage, who is to say I am not getting the wrong "Secret Papers", or that they haven't simply been extrapolated from Crowley's work, or worse yet, flat out made up?

It is not just confusing for newbies. I know many seasoned, long time Thelemites who feel the same way I do about A.'.A.'. in its current state, and I think that this confusion is counterproductive not only to the individual Work, but to the Work of A.'.A.'. on THIS plane. People want to get in. They just don't know where to go.

Some people are satisfied to just dive right in regardless, I and a great many others are not. I most likely will not join anytime soon. Not because I don't want to, but because the A.'.A.'. in its current state is, in my opinion, in a horrible state of disrepair. That's just my opinion.

Love is the law, love under will.

Oz


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 Anonymous
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01/06/2011 4:49 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
"nashimiron" wrote:
If they don't, formally cut them off from the current. And possibly torture tham with hot coals. 😈

You misunderstand the process! There is, of course, the need to "expel" all foreign elements. Those that remain standing are traditionally met in court. That is, they must be sued and reduced to poverty. Then one needs to tell horror stories about their "lineage" and its falsities.

That's too cruel! Too barbaric! I was suggesting going easy on them.


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 Anonymous
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01/06/2011 6:10 pm  

Nice post, Oz, and you should contribute here more often, imo. Anyway, yes, I've heard these same and similar sentiments from many, many others during these times of disarrA.'.A.'. 😉


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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01/06/2011 6:22 pm  

93,

"Camlion" wrote:
Nice post, Oz, and you should contribute here more often, imo. Anyway, yes, I've heard these same and similar sentiments from many, many others during these times of disarrA.'.A.'. 😉

Yes, thank you Oz. Your post is exactly what I was getting at with this thread.

disarrA.'.A.'. ... heh. I like it. 🙂

93 93/93


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Shiva
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01/06/2011 6:56 pm  
"ozzzz666" wrote:
Here is the problem for me personally. Where is THE A.'.A.'.? Which one?

There is only one. It "resides" above the abyss. Crowley invented the letters and the dots (A.'.A.'.) to be a representation of The Order that has No Name. In his day, AC brought the concept down to the physical plane and published books with A.'.A.'. in it, along with an "invitation" to join his party. He kept it pretty much "unfragmented" during his lifetime (even if there was a lot of re-assigning students to new "links" (mentors) when their teacher dropped out). A whole bunch of guys stepped in to keep up the work after AC's time, thus the various "lineages" we see today. The question really is, which of these fellows (or sorors as the case may be) is an 8=3? Any "lineages" without (at least) an 8=3 is just pretending.

"ozzzz666" wrote:
The Order only knocks once upon my door, right? Or does it... Who decides?

You decide. Following advertisements, mailing letters or emails, or asking on lashtal is not the Order knocking on one's door; it is seeking. The "knock" is when somebody comes to your door and (rings the bell?) Knocks. If they knock, you should [?] know it. If YOU knock, well, "Keep a knockin' but you can't come in."

"ozzzz666" wrote:
What if new documents are released? Who says they are or are not valid?

"New documents" are not going to change the path. You determine the validity of any writings you may encounter.

"ozzzz666" wrote:
...the final word on things like "The Word"

I believe all Thelemites accept the word we know so well. Period. Then you get to determine your own word. Other opinions do not count.

"ozzzz666" wrote:
I understand that there IS material that I will not have access to until I "Join", and this too troubles me.

AA does not have secret documents (OTO does). It's all been published and posted on the www. AA Oaths specifically engage "for mystery is the enemy of truth," thus I can't think of a single piece of paper that you could get your hands on - that hasn't already been let loose. There are no written secrets that are not artificial. (There are operative secrets that nobody can teach you, although they can be "transmitted" by a competent Master).

During my initial training, I came to an absolutely amazing insight: There is NO Order! When I told my guru this, I was told, "Oh, you just figured that out, did you?" There is only people and their inner Star (it's not "out there"). If a "teacher" has made an operative, ongoing union with that Star, and one gets "hooked up" to that teacher, then one has found the (outer) preliminary goal. All the ladders and trees and systems are maps. We know the map is not the path itself. All the letters (AA, SS, RC. GD, etc) are artificial constructs. If these letters are flashed around by someone with an Ego that they can't release at will, then it's just wishful thinking.

One should be seeking a teacher who has the Light (and the corresponding inner darkness). But going out and knocking is not the way. Perhaps a genuine magickal ceremony to secure such a link will bring a knock on one's door. You will know them by their Light; there is no other criteria. Except confusion - the underlying theme of this thread.


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 Anonymous
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01/06/2011 7:08 pm  

Thanks, Shiva.
Insightful as always.


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einDoppelganger
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01/06/2011 8:21 pm  

Seconded, great post Shiva! Thanks for that!


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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01/06/2011 9:19 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
[...] You will know them by their Light; there is no other criteria. Except confusion - the underlying theme of this thread.

I'm glad someone said this before I retyped that long post. Thanks, Shiva.


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ozzzz666
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01/06/2011 10:32 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
There is only one. It "resides" above the abyss.

If this is true, I can't tell.

"Shiva" wrote:
The question really is, which of these fellows (or sorors as the case may be) is an 8=3? Any "lineages" without (at least) an 8=3 is just pretending.

So then it is not, "one"?

And the honest seeker is to determine which "lineage" contains an 8=3 how exactly?

"Shiva" wrote:
I believe all Thelemites accept the word we know so well. Period. Then you get to determine your own word. Other opinions do not count.

I am under the impression that A.'.A.'. members receive a "word" 4 times year... Am I mistaken?

Thanks for the response, but it really isn't all that helpful to say "You will know, It's magic". Not to mention the whole "The A.'.A.'. IS one... Unless there is no 8=3" bit. I'm not trying to be rude, just honest.

Oz


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 Anonymous
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01/06/2011 11:00 pm  

Honestly though, the world has been lucky enough, if you believe in the system of the A.'.A.'., to be given a system of self attainment. Your direct superior in chief doesn't do the work necessary? Tough luck for them, you can always excel in your grade. All grades describe exactly what needs be done. It's personal attainment, it's not about social status and OTO, McOTO, UR-OTO policies. Does the word given every three months make such a difference? Was Buddha bummed because on the way to Magister Templi he did not receive any word of the Equinox? Shiva has already provided with the greatest insight, in my opinon, with the sentence 'there is NO order'. Who needs the trappings of a true or false Order in order to accomplish one's own personal spiritual path?
One may very well spend the whole of his life looking for the lineage that is MORE official and real than the others, only to discover, in the end, that it's all in what one does. AC wrote it all down, there aren't many secrets out there on paper. And the secrets that do exist must be EXPERIENCED, not talked about.


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 Anonymous
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01/06/2011 11:11 pm  

Well said, Frater!


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Azidonis
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02/06/2011 12:53 am  

93,

"ozzzz666" wrote:
mpression that A.'.A.'. members receive a "word" 4 times year... Am I mistaken?

Thanks for the response, but it really isn't all that helpful to say "You will know, It's magic". Not to mention the whole "The A.'.A.'. IS one... Unless there is no 8=3" bit. I'm not trying to be rude, just honest.

Oz

The Word is just a mechanism, like any other mechanism. It's intent is to provide everyone in the line with a similar focus for a short period. It is not altogether necessary to possess these words, anymore than it is necessary to possess their meanings.

If you had 10 people, and you wanted them all to work on building a house, you might give them a word, like "build" or "house". Thus, if those 10 people were in various parts of the globe, they would all be working on the concept of "build" or "house" in accordance with their own natures and understandings.

It's a nice way for people to be on the same page, is all. The Word was also implemented to help detect frauds. As the Outer has expanded greatly since 666's time, with various schools of thought, each school might posses its own Word, which would not necessarily admit you into the same Grade of another school.

Like Shiva said though, this is all so many bells and whistles. One might imagine the City of the Pyramids to be this glorious city full of Masters, Magi, and Ipsissimi. As if they are holding this global council or something to which you want to be admitted.

Masters have transcended the limitations of self, and thus can function just rightly within and without the self. A real Master, in my opinion, needs words and symbols about as much as Einstein needed a lobotomy (he didn't).

On schools and Masters, the link is apparent. Scientifically, all you really have to do is observe the would-be Master in nature. That is, in physical life. I have seen Masters be wrong on very rare occasions, usually when not dealing with something they specialize in, if it happens at all. For example, one day when I am a Master I will still probably suck badly at math, but I will know how to use the resources available in order to accomplish the task, though it would create many more errors along the road than say a thesis on the Holy Guardian Angel. I feel that resourcefulness to an uncanny degree, is possibly a symptom of mastery on some level. There is really no set way to tell. Either the person a Master or is not. For a look into some real Masters, do some video searches for more modern interviews... D.T. Suzuki comes to mind.

Meeting a Master is important, but not as important as one may think. One may initially think that to do the Work at all one might want the ability to consult with someone who has been there. That's all the A:.A:. really is, on the Outer... bunch of people who have been there, bunch of people who haven't but claim they were, and a bunch of people who are trying to get there.

You can get there on your own. And, once you learn to listen to your HGA, you won't necessarily need a Master, for the HGA is the Master. Once you and the HGA are one, the entire idea floats carelessly away, and the link with the Supernals is made.

All any Master tries to do is help someone find out how to communicate with their HGA... that, and maybe slap someone with a bamboo stick if they get too far out of line.

93 93/93


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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02/06/2011 1:06 am  
"ozzzz666" wrote:
So then it is not, "one"?

Above the abyss, it (the universal white brotherhood) is one; technically, it is none, but let's save that for another thread. Below the abyss, there can be many, and they are each dependent upon a 7=4. an "authority." A 7=4 must be linked to an 8=3 for the work to have any validity. Remember the GD, and Mathers, and the "link" with the secret chiefs?

"ozzzz666" wrote:
And the honest seeker is to determine which "lineage" contains an 8=3 how exactly?

Aha! That is really the question, isn't it? The seeker, honest or otherwise [early on the path, nobody is honest - especially with themselves], would first determine if there was an entity claiming to be 8=3. There are those imprimatur things and there are publications, and if a claim is made, then further investigation is required. Obviously, a claim is just a statement, and statements can be dishonest or mistaken, but this gives a starting point. But Crowley told us that any inquiry into the nature of a Magister will lead to disaster, or confusion, or insanity (because it's all beyond reason and our puny intellects), bu let's give it a shot (in the dark).

First, one would need to get within physical proximity of said Magister (if you can find him or her); then one would simply look. It's called "seeing," but what is implied is viewing their energy field. I have posted this link a time or two, but here it is again:
http://mystic-history.angelfire.com/3grades.ht m"> http://mystic-history.angelfire.com/3grades.htm
This site describes what to look for.
If one can't see these things, then maybe their feeling sense is developed enough. If not, then this approach won't help.

There is no "second" item. Either one can see, or feel (if one can trust their feelings), this invisible light or else one just has to take a chance don't they?

"ozzzz666" wrote:
I am under the impression that A.'.A.'. members receive a "word" 4 times year... Am I mistaken?

In AC's time, he issued a word (the current password) twice a year - at the Equinoxes. Some lineages probably still do this. Some may issue 4 words per annum. These are artificial constructs; they have nothing to do with anyone's relationship with their Angel or their Binah-not-self. Some have no changing password. Oh, there are words for each initiation (not each degree - some degrees are confirmed without ceremony and no word is transmitted). Even these words are not crucial for the path.

"ozzzz666" wrote:
I'm not trying to be rude, just honest.

That's right. Much of what I wrote isn't really helpful in a practical sense. But everything I wrote is essentially correct. This whole subject starts with a Magister and eventually impinges on the physical plane; it is riddled with veils and paradoxes; that's why it's so confusing. When one contacts their "link," something happens: It may be seeing, or a flash of light, or some synchonicity, or a dream - but it does send the message.

Let's look at the facts. Just the facts, ma'm (Sgt Friday):

Most "AA" lineages who are actually advertising (they have a website or a book, etc to let you know they are there) don't even have the courtesy to respond to a letter or an email message; sometimes they respond once, and then go silent. Are such folks worthy of further worry?

Some will respond in a courteous way, telling the aspirant that there is no room in the Inn (that is, they and their disciples already have their hands full with students; maybe later and thanks for inquiring). Even if a Magister is amongst them, you can't get your foot in the door. So one waits or looks elsewhere.

If some (AA) group or link will respond and offer admission, then it's time to look for the Magister or take a chance.

Dictatorship has no place in this process. If one gets "in," and then the dictating starts it's time to get "out." Don't wave the "magickal oaths" flag - AA has NO oath of obedience. "Guidance" is the correct word. If it gets weird, the oaths have been taken to ONE'S SELF - with an invocation for the AA to guide and oversee. There is no personal loyalty involved.

Let's go back to the beginning. Search the simplest texts, those for the beginner. They say: TO BECOME FIT is the goal - so you do the practices. One should seek out a Master, and not be discouraged if it's difficult. You have read the words that I just paraphrased. Because in the end, at the bottom line, and the ultimate principle involved, is that old, old saying that sometimes people don't want to hear or believe:
When the student is ready, the Master will appear.

Other than that, it really is a mess out there, isn't it? Many posters have implied that there are teachers or "lineages" or groups that do the AA work (the practices, the oaths) but they're not silly enough to actually use AA in their name; because, like every other sacred symbol, it's been misused and engulfed in glamor. So, behold! They are called something else. One can find them - by becoming fit and trusting the attractive principle. If no Master has yet appeared, that should stop no one from continuing doing the practices.

Such a long post; such rambling; surely Shiva has become unhinged. Well, if there's even a glimmer in any three of these words, and anyone says "Aha!" then it's worth it. Otherwise, there is hope in other spells. Has anyone investigated the Jehovah's Witnesses yet - they come knocking.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/06/2011 1:38 am  

Aha! 😀

The Jehova's Witnesses tend to get a "Go Away!", or if I'm feeling it a "Hail Satan!" and the door slammed in their face when they come a knockin' on my door. I remember reading somewhere online someone claiming that "The Watchtower" was really an invocation of Cthulhu....oh, if only that were the case....:lol:


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5024
02/06/2011 2:16 am  
"N.O.X" wrote:
The Jehova's Witnesses tend to get a "Go Away!"

Well, with the Great Order only knockin' once on any door, I guess they really don't qualify; they knock once every month if possible.


ReplyQuote
AdoniaZanoni
(@adoniazanoni)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 72
02/06/2011 5:36 am  

This problem started when Karl Germer upon his painful death failed to name a head of the A.’.A.’. and a head of the O.T.O in any legal document. He probably should have named Motta to be head of both organizations, hopefully Frater Sphinx is reading this so he can waiver the 5 years of silence for me.

I certainly considered the idea of unification to avoid confusion. This can create a con game where anyone can falsely claim to be A.’.A.’. , promote themselves to high grades, and mislead people. Why do you think there is always a new thread about joining the A.’.A.’. ? There will probably be a new one next year. New people are always discovering Crowley’s writings and may go to this site for references and guidance. Of course new people should do a web search for theses existing threads.

Honestly, I doubt unification is possible. Those who support the idea for these lineages to be separate may fear their lineage may be wrong. The use of mystical jargon such as “When the student is ready, the Master will appear” maybe true or not. Phrases like “You will know them by their Light” sounds like a Christian metaphor. However Shiva still brings up good arguments, words for me to think about and convinces me on certain levels unification is not needed. Perhaps the AA structure is infinite Trees of Life and the goal is to find one tree with “a 7=4 must be linked to an 8=3 for the work to have any validity.”

The only idea I have to create one official AA lineages to unify is for the OTO Caliphate to own trademark The Holy Seal of the A.'.A.'. The Caliphate OTO could own the seal for the outer plane. They can have their lawyers write a legal argument to the courts by stating the A.’.A.’. trademark is an inner spiritual order that exists within the OTO and this should be trademarked. They can state this is how Crowley meant this to be by using Equinox III and any other legal strategy. They probably should have done over 30 years ago. This idea might fail due to the statue of limits. I also know the contents One Star in Sight and other Crowely’s statements can be used to nullify this idea. With the right priced lawyers and judges, this Machiavellian method could work.

If it did work, this would make A.'.A.'. Triumvirate under V., V.V., S.U.A as the premier lineage of the A.’.A.’. The Caliphate OTO could then tell other lineages to stop using their trademark on various websites and publications or face legal trouble. Most of these websites with these lineages do not have the funds to fight. This idea is not original since they already did this with the OTO trademark. This idea did succeed with eliminating the term Typhonian OTO from Startfire. Then again, they were able to get the copyrights on the Thoth Tarot art late in the game and right away so it could work.

The legal cost and effort may be fruitless, pointless. Maybe, it has already thought of and has been examined this legally. Their probably is no financial gain in doing this as mentioned by einDoppelganger. I would prefer they use their time and money for new publications or re publications of out of print works. If this idea was implemented, I would be laughing hysterically on how ridiculous this is.

Azidonis had a good idea of linking all the entire world of AA claimant websites in one site with commentaries explaining the differences known as I tried in another post in the USA.

Another idea is to have all the AA heads agree to meet annually or semi-annually just to discuss and talk their experiences and views as a start. Imagine, GM. Kelly, William Breeze, David Bersson, Ray Eales, Paul Rovelli, Jerry Cornelius, J. Daniel Gunther and others all in the same room.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5024
02/06/2011 6:07 am  
"AdoniaZanoni" wrote:
Imagine, GM. Kelly, William Breeze, David Bersson, Ray Eales, Paul Rovelli, Jerry Cornelius, J. Daniel Gunther and others all in the same room.

You have named seven people. Ah, if only they were the secret chiefs incarnate. "Let them gather in that vault, er room, and let's all see their auras," I say.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/06/2011 11:09 am  

Call in an airstrike


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/06/2011 5:51 pm  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law,

Interesting thread. I especially like the idea of calling in an airstrike. 😉

Joking aside, though, there are some thoughts to consider that have only been mentioned in passing or alluded to; not discussed directly.

No one has mentioned simply starting one's own A.A., which I am a personal fan of. Each person (or two people) simply start their own lineage. Why? The fragmentation that exists currently is proof of lower ego problems that those towards the top of the individual lineages are unable to resolve to bring cohesion to the overall idea that is the A.A. As has been mentioned before, though, above the Abyss, the order that the A.A. represents has no name. In eastern esoteric thought, this group is known as the 'Hierarchy', and almost all descriptions of the Hierarchy match verbatim the A.A. Thus all lineages that currently exist of the A.A. are equally valid, and equally invalid at the same time.

These are just my thoughts, as I have been a Thelemite for years, and have contemplated joining the A.A. many times, and have always stopped short because if they can't get their house in order, then the message I am receiving is to do it myself because I can then side step the negative karma that they (the lineages) are working through, and focus on my own path. It's not the most social of solutions, but it works well because as has been mentioned, the material is out there.

love is the law, love under will.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
02/06/2011 6:57 pm  

The Ten Oxherding Pictures


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/06/2011 7:01 pm  

Great link, Azidonis. Thanks for posting that! 😉


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/06/2011 7:07 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
You can get there on your own.

Absolutely.

"Shiva" wrote:
I have posted this link a time or two, but here it is again:
http://mystic-history.angelfire.com/3grades.ht m"> http://mystic-history.angelfire.com/3grades.htm

Really a great explanation of things at this site. Shame the design is so hoaky.

"Shiva" wrote:
Such a long post; such rambling; surely Shiva has become unhinged. Well, if there's even a glimmer in any three of these words, and anyone says "Aha!" then it's worth it.

Thanks for the post Shiva. I agree with everything you've said here.

Myself, I simply do the work and do not concern myself with any "Outer Orders". There is no need to join an organization. The instructions are freely available for anyone seeking.


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obscurus
(@obscuruspaintus)
Member
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 315
02/06/2011 7:07 pm  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

I am a speck of light clothed in the flesh of a beast.
No group of any kind or of any name can bring you to that light which is within. No evangalist of any color can it bring it forth with a slap on the forehead. It is all you. Infinitely small, unimaginably vast, know thyself. Be perceptive and what is needed will appear.
Would you follow a man that derides others and then posts a video of himself in this airless world of the internet preforming a ritual in which he clearly displays his own inability to control his own physical body? One's efforts are much better spent searching one's own self than chasing after the likes of these. Some of these groups may be accomplishing some good and some others...well? It will all take it's natural course.
Get inside your own skull and aperio occultus lux lucis...bring forth the hidden light.
The previous posts address the topic much better, I just had to muddy up the floor a bit! 😀

Love is the law, love under will.


ReplyQuote
Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4052
02/06/2011 7:18 pm  
"AdoniaZanoni" wrote:
This problem started when Karl Germer upon his painful death failed to name a head of the A.’.A.’. and a head of the O.T.O in any legal document. He probably should have named Motta to be head of both organizations, hopefully Frater Sphinx is reading this so he can waiver the 5 years of silence for me.

I certainly considered the idea of unification to avoid confusion. This can create a con game where anyone can falsely claim to be A.’.A.’. , promote themselves to high grades, and mislead people. Why do you think there is always a new thread about joining the A.’.A.’. ? There will probably be a new one next year. New people are always discovering Crowley’s writings and may go to this site for references and guidance. Of course new people should do a web search for theses existing threads.

Honestly, I doubt unification is possible. Those who support the idea for these lineages to be separate may fear their lineage may be wrong. The use of mystical jargon such as “When the student is ready, the Master will appear” maybe true or not. Phrases like “You will know them by their Light” sounds like a Christian metaphor. However Shiva still brings up good arguments, words for me to think about and convinces me on certain levels unification is not needed. Perhaps the AA structure is infinite Trees of Life and the goal is to find one tree with “a 7=4 must be linked to an 8=3 for the work to have any validity.”

The only idea I have to create one official AA lineages to unify is for the OTO Caliphate to own trademark The Holy Seal of the A.'.A.'. The Caliphate OTO could own the seal for the outer plane. They can have their lawyers write a legal argument to the courts by stating the A.’.A.’. trademark is an inner spiritual order that exists within the OTO and this should be trademarked. They can state this is how Crowley meant this to be by using Equinox III and any other legal strategy. They probably should have done over 30 years ago. This idea might fail due to the statue of limits. I also know the contents One Star in Sight and other Crowely’s statements can be used to nullify this idea. With the right priced lawyers and judges, this Machiavellian method could work.

If it did work, this would make A.'.A.'. Triumvirate under V., V.V., S.U.A as the premier lineage of the A.’.A.’. The Caliphate OTO could then tell other lineages to stop using their trademark on various websites and publications or face legal trouble. Most of these websites with these lineages do not have the funds to fight. This idea is not original since they already did this with the OTO trademark. This idea did succeed with eliminating the term Typhonian OTO from Startfire. Then again, they were able to get the copyrights on the Thoth Tarot art late in the game and right away so it could work.

The legal cost and effort may be fruitless, pointless. Maybe, it has already thought of and has been examined this legally. Their probably is no financial gain in doing this as mentioned by einDoppelganger. I would prefer they use their time and money for new publications or re publications of out of print works. If this idea was implemented, I would be laughing hysterically on how ridiculous this is.

Azidonis had a good idea of linking all the entire world of AA claimant websites in one site with commentaries explaining the differences known as I tried in another post in the USA.

Another idea is to have all the AA heads agree to meet annually or semi-annually just to discuss and talk their experiences and views as a start. Imagine, GM. Kelly, William Breeze, David Bersson, Ray Eales, Paul Rovelli, Jerry Cornelius, J. Daniel Gunther and others all in the same room.

Even assuming for the sake of argument that they wanted to, how on earth would the "Caliphate OTO" be entitled to trademark the Seal of another, totally separate organisation? They are not, after all, using the mark in the course of trading so far as I am aware.

Your suggestion seems to be to enforce a hegemony by use of a trademark, calculating that none of the lineages of the A.'.A.'. would have the resources to fight the registration of the trademark. On the face of it, any of those lineages would have an excellent case for arguing that the mark was generic, that they had been using it for years, and that no one organisation was entitled to its exclusive use. Were the opposition to the attempted trademark registration to succeed on those grounds, the applicants attempting to carry out your plan would have to pay costs.

In my opinion there'll be a multiplicity of organisations using the name A.'.A.'. for some considerable time to come. There's one particular lineage associated with the "Caliphate OTO", and people know who they are, so I don't see a problem. And if there is a problem, I doubt that the use of trademark law as suggested by you would be fruitful.

Besides, as suggested earlier in this thread as well as elsewhere, the A.'.A.'. is merely a transient expression of a mystical hierarchy, and in my opinion is probably best left to its own devices.

Best wishes,

Michael.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/06/2011 7:26 pm  
"N.O.X" wrote:
Call in an airstrike

This is actually the right idea, but the passage of time is the airstrike. What becomes of all this a few generations from now is more interesting to me than the rest. Who will have the staying power to prevail?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/06/2011 8:42 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
Besides, as suggested earlier in this thread as well as elsewhere, the A.'.A.'. is merely a transient expression of a mystical hierarchy, and in my opinion is probably best left to its own devices.

Is there anything meaningful to be added to this thread that has not been summed up in this sentence by Michael?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/06/2011 9:16 pm  
"FraterLucius" wrote:
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
Besides, as suggested earlier in this thread as well as elsewhere, the A.'.A.'. is merely a transient expression of a mystical hierarchy, and in my opinion is probably best left to its own devices.

Is there anything meaningful to be added to this thread that has not been summed up in this sentence by Michael?

Probably, because the founders of this "transient expression of a mystical hierarchy" intended it to have an outer Order offering a loosely structured program of training and testing to aspirants that happens to really Work if one engages it with dedication and perseverance .


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
02/06/2011 9:48 pm  

93,

"FraterLucius" wrote:
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
Besides, as suggested earlier in this thread as well as elsewhere, the A.'.A.'. is merely a transient expression of a mystical hierarchy, and in my opinion is probably best left to its own devices.

Is there anything meaningful to be added to this thread that has not been summed up in this sentence by Michael?

No... and yes. No because he's right. On the Inner, he's totally right, and I couldn't agree more.

On the Outer, and this is what I'm still trying to address, is the perceived fragmentation.

A Seeker begins reading books, trying rituals, and is moving along in general. At some point s/he comes across The Book of the Law and decides it must be right. So they start searching and digging up information, and find that there is a "Sacred Order" which practices the teachings given in the Book. That "Sacred Order" is the A:.A:.. Then, by way of Google and such, they begin searching for a way to contact this A:.A:. and find out that there are many different "A:.A:.'s" that could be contacted. To make matters worse, they soon learn that not all of them are public, and they have varying Periods of Silence and Speech.

And of course, they don't want to get caught up in the wrong group and be led astray. So they start asking questions, prodding to hopefully get some solid answers on the topic. But the answers we give many times are not beginner answers.

Sure, you could have told me 15 years ago that it was all in my head, but that only did so much for all of the images that appeared to be outside of it. It was much more useful during that time for me to hear, "all of those things are only distractions." I remember bringing some question up that had been bothering me to my Superior one time, and hey simply said, "Fuck that. Accomplish the Great Work." Such methods proved to be more efficient for me all those years ago.

So while we can speak of some things fluently here on the boards, a beginner may not yet know the language that we are speaking in (that is for the Student curriculum). And then of course, the benefit of a teacher is never to be discounted.

They want to join the A:.A:.. They want to do the Work. They do not want to be led astray, or confused. Is the path not confusing enough at times?

I'm not saying that all the current heads should get together and sign some peace treaty. As far as I know, there is no war. But, the symbols that have fallen into the hands of the masses have left quite a trail of crumbs, and those crumbs do not always lead to the City of the Pyramids.

It was, I believe, part of 666's Office to set these symbols right, and put them into plain sight for the world. He's said it himself on various occasions. Sadly, in claims of focus on the Inner Orders, the Outer Orders have been pushed aside, it would seem, in favor of the "greater good".

This is not what Masters do. I'm sorry for some of you "8=3's" out there that think I'm full of shit, but is not the Oath of the Magister Templi to "interpret every phenomenon as a particular dealing of god with my soul"? Is not the Bodhisattva vow to postpone one's own enlightenment until all other beings are enlightened too?

The Master who never has time for his students is a false Master. Of the real Masters I have met, not one single one of them has ever found a way not to make time when people had questions. Sure, they might not "want" to, they might not feel the need to, but they find time to help out. A real Master can help shine a torch light onto the Path of the Aspirant. The Master cannot walk that path for him, but can help him see the bear traps.

Point being, the A:.A:. is designed on the notion of reciprocation.

Liber 333, Chapter 3:

"3
ΚΕΦΑΛΗ Γ
THE OYSTER

The Brothers of AA are one with the Mother of the Child.
The Many is as adorable to the One as the One is to the Many.
This is the Love of These; creationparturition is the Bliss of the One; coitiondissolution is the Bliss of the Many.
The All, thus interwoven of These, is Bliss.
Naught is beyond Bliss.
The Man delights in uniting with the Woman; the Woman in parting from the Child.
The Brothers of A:.A:. are Women: the Aspirants to A:.A:. are Men."

The Aspirants look "upward" and do their best to help themselves to that they may eventually help others. The Brothers do their best to help others, and in doing so, help themselves.

It goes both ways. And I'm saying that no matter how long you spend in the City of the Pyramids being a "Master", if you can't find a way to balance a check book, you are no Master. A true Master is a Master on the lower planes as well, and the fragmentation displayed to the outer world at the moment is not a show of Mastery, in my opinion.

We know the A:.A:. System works. Many have success using it, even unto Mastery. But it seems that many of these so-called Masters want to keep their attainments for themselves and their close-knit group of people. That is not Mastery, fellas. That is a page from the Black Book of Choronzon.

So, in an effort to help with this, I've started a website. I know absolutely nothing about websites, but it will become a gateway to the various lines of A:.A:. Once it's up and going I will put out an open invitation to any A:.A:. claimant group, and if accepted, they can post a short message about their lineage along with a link to their site.

If you think this is a bad idea, then why not give me another one? Its been too long that dispersion has ruled the outer perception, and looking into the future, as Camlion likes to do, eventually the System of the A:.A:. could end up on some British bookshelf until it is "discovered" by the Mathers and Westcott of 2186 or whatever.

93 93/93

Edit:

I saw a video of an island, full of birds. They were flying around the treetops, over the trees, the ocean, etc. There were so many birds, and it was a lovely video.

Then the video changed focus, talking about how the birds actually are destroying the island. They showed a mass of rocks, covered in birds, and when the birds flew away you could barely see the rocks because of all the bird shit. They showed beneath the canopy of forestry, and it was difficult to see grass in some places there was so much bird shit.

So while the birds think that everything is okay, and it's so great to fly and soar around in the aethyr, they are not thinking about all the the bird shit on the ground, which is more than a little worse for wear.

Do you think anyone would buy that island?


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/06/2011 11:03 pm  

Its an interesting thread, and poses some tough issues for the long term - ultimately i suspect that if there was to be any sort of 'unification' that it will come only if one group or claimant is so successful and 'professional' in its work that it eclipses any others.

- I cant see a, ' lets get round the table, have a committee meeting and decide who is boss' approach ever working - due to simple human nature and theability of magick and occultism to attract lunatics and meglomaniacs

I cant imagine many self professed and self appointed 'adepts' or 'masters' wanting to be in any club that they weren't in charge of 🙂

Also just a couple of points of distinction;

there is the A.A. as an 'eternal and invisible order' , the one that alledgedly sends out secret masters and magi and has acted behind the scenes for all time, if ye olde legends are to be believed.

However prior to crowley - this 'eternal and invisible order' wasnt called A.A. and of course the 'historical magi' of thelemic mythology - only became 'magi' when Crowley retrospectively 'claimed' them, for his newly constituted order.

Until crowley did this, these magi etc were, of course, entirely separate, distinct and unrelated, and certainly didnt consider themselves to part of any sort of unified spiritual movement or organisation.

Then there is the A.A. as an Order , which was effectivley a reconstituted Golden Dawn, it had real people, a P.O. Box - it published books - issued certificates with wax seals - set out cirricula for its various grades - adminstered examinations - performed rituals of initiation (or at least wrote them) etc. etc.

so its important to keep that distinction in mind , and not confuse one with the other.

also, in terms of 8=3 , the original framework of one star in sight, makes a provision for not only magister templi but any member of the 3rd triad to found organisations dependent on themselves.

"Members of the Order are each entitled to found Orders dependent on themselves on the lines of the R. C. and G. D. orders, to cover types of emancipation and illumination not contemplated by the original (or main) system."

what is important in this, is that any such dependent organisations are NOT 'lineages' of A.A., these orders are explicitly intended to address 'types of emancipation or illumination NOT CONTEMPLATED by the original system.

so this is another misunderstanding - if someone claims 8=3 or whatever - super duper - they have an entitlement to create a new framework or path that is different than the regular A.A. system - not to found a 'lineage' that works with the bog standard Crowley A.A. sylabus.

What seems undeniable is that in a wordly sense , of pieces of paper and appointed representatives WHICH WERE AN UNDENIABLE PART of the orginal A.A. system that the chain of 'Authority of the A.A.' was broken .

therefore any modern 'claimants' have picked up the broken pieces and done their best to build with them - what peices they have - and how they use them - doesnt overcome the fact that a break in the chain of authority occured - all these A.A.'s , whether they represent lineages, or claim to be THE A.A. - are reconstructions and reconstitutions, and it seems to me that if they are honest that they will happliy admit it.

Ultimately. 'success is your proof' - and of course that raises the question of success in what?

what is deemed more important - The Map? or the territory? or both?

Is the purpose of these claimants to the A'A ' name 'scientific illuminism' - a sceptical exploration and experimentation with techniques of 'spiritual attainment' adapted to todays circumstances, trying it all and finding what works and what doesnt?

or is it striving to make a more established and efficient manefestation of the particular MAP that Crowley Laid out in One Star in sight and the instructions of the Equinox?

which of these is considered most important by any aspirant is going to have an impact on what any path, group , or system can offer them.

I think this link sums up the issue perfectly 🙂

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uywIYQEHZLs

enjoy!

davy


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/06/2011 11:11 pm  

No matter how cnfusing it may be to decide which is the right lineage to join up with is going to make but little difference if you are assigned a Neophyte that you may not resonate well with or one that is just full of shit.


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AdoniaZanoni
(@adoniazanoni)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 72
03/06/2011 12:05 am  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
"AdoniaZanoni" wrote:
This problem started when Karl Germer upon his painful death failed to name a head of the A.’.A.’. and a head of the O.T.O in any legal document. He probably should have named Motta to be head of both organizations, hopefully Frater Sphinx is reading this so he can waiver the 5 years of silence for me.

I certainly considered the idea of unification to avoid confusion. This can create a con game where anyone can falsely claim to be A.’.A.’. , promote themselves to high grades, and mislead people. Why do you think there is always a new thread about joining the A.’.A.’. ? There will probably be a new one next year. New people are always discovering Crowley’s writings and may go to this site for references and guidance. Of course new people should do a web search for theses existing threads.

Honestly, I doubt unification is possible. Those who support the idea for these lineages to be separate may fear their lineage may be wrong. The use of mystical jargon such as “When the student is ready, the Master will appear” maybe true or not. Phrases like “You will know them by their Light” sounds like a Christian metaphor. However Shiva still brings up good arguments, words for me to think about and convinces me on certain levels unification is not needed. Perhaps the AA structure is infinite Trees of Life and the goal is to find one tree with “a 7=4 must be linked to an 8=3 for the work to have any validity.”

The only idea I have to create one official AA lineages to unify is for the OTO Caliphate to own trademark The Holy Seal of the A.'.A.'. The Caliphate OTO could own the seal for the outer plane. They can have their lawyers write a legal argument to the courts by stating the A.’.A.’. trademark is an inner spiritual order that exists within the OTO and this should be trademarked. They can state this is how Crowley meant this to be by using Equinox III and any other legal strategy. They probably should have done over 30 years ago. This idea might fail due to the statue of limits. I also know the contents One Star in Sight and other Crowely’s statements can be used to nullify this idea. With the right priced lawyers and judges, this Machiavellian method could work.

If it did work, this would make A.'.A.'. Triumvirate under V., V.V., S.U.A as the premier lineage of the A.’.A.’. The Caliphate OTO could then tell other lineages to stop using their trademark on various websites and publications or face legal trouble. Most of these websites with these lineages do not have the funds to fight. This idea is not original since they already did this with the OTO trademark. This idea did succeed with eliminating the term Typhonian OTO from Startfire. Then again, they were able to get the copyrights on the Thoth Tarot art late in the game and right away so it could work.

The legal cost and effort may be fruitless, pointless. Maybe, it has already thought of and has been examined this legally. Their probably is no financial gain in doing this as mentioned by einDoppelganger. I would prefer they use their time and money for new publications or re publications of out of print works. If this idea was implemented, I would be laughing hysterically on how ridiculous this is.

Azidonis had a good idea of linking all the entire world of AA claimant websites in one site with commentaries explaining the differences known as I tried in another post in the USA.

Another idea is to have all the AA heads agree to meet annually or semi-annually just to discuss and talk their experiences and views as a start. Imagine, GM. Kelly, William Breeze, David Bersson, Ray Eales, Paul Rovelli, Jerry Cornelius, J. Daniel Gunther and others all in the same room.

Even assuming for the sake of argument that they wanted to, how on earth would the "Caliphate OTO" be entitled to trademark the Seal of another, totally separate organisation? They are not, after all, using the mark in the course of trading so far as I am aware.

Your suggestion seems to be to enforce a hegemony by use of a trademark, calculating that none of the lineages of the A.'.A.'. would have the resources to fight the registration of the trademark. On the face of it, any of those lineages would have an excellent case for arguing that the mark was generic, that they had been using it for years, and that no one organisation was entitled to its exclusive use. Were the opposition to the attempted trademark registration to succeed on those grounds, the applicants attempting to carry out your plan would have to pay costs.

In my opinion there'll be a multiplicity of organisations using the name A.'.A.'. for some considerable time to come. There's one particular lineage associated with the "Caliphate OTO", and people know who they are, so I don't see a problem. And if there is a problem, I doubt that the use of trademark law as suggested by you would be fruitful.

Besides, as suggested earlier in this thread as well as elsewhere, the A.'.A.'. is merely a transient expression of a mystical hierarchy, and in my opinion is probably best left to its own devices.

Best wishes,

Michael.

Michael,

I really have nothing more write to this thread unless I wanted to add more names to the AA Round Table Meeting such as Martin Starr. I actually agree with what you and Shiva had stated on certain planes and wanted to clarify myself to you.

I must state I am in no order what so ever, Caliphate included. I would not even want to call myself a Thelemite after hearing the “scholar”, since it becoming a social status trend.

I was trying to come up with fun hypothetical ideas on how to unite the AA on the physical plane. I agree the AA and the OTO are separate orders. The reason the Caliphate would own the Babalon seal is it is intellectual property and Crowley wanted the OTO (the physical plane) to own all his intellectual literary and property whether it was AA or OTO. I thought I stated this argument had flaws, statue of limitation, would be expensive and maybe backfire. This was written to be taken in a partially not serious manner, satirical in certain ways.

However, good lawyers can use the law to their advantage by aligning with agreeable judges, writing the “perfect” legal argument, eliminating evidence that could refute their argument, making the guilty look innocent, the innocent look guilty, lies into truth and truth into lies. There are a lot of wrong court decisions that are made.


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