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 Anonymous
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15/06/2011 10:56 pm  

P.S. Intelectual training is the realm of Rauch, better known as Reason. I preffer the realm of Nephesh or Passion, though I accept it too has it's pit falls.


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 Anonymous
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16/06/2011 5:48 pm  
"Alex_Bennett" wrote:
P.S. Intelectual training is the realm of Rauch, better known as Reason. I preffer the realm of Nephesh or Passion, though I accept it too has it's pit falls.

Yes, yes, the soul has it parts, and there is division hither homeward, but I choose not to favor one part over another, so that I can go forth in balance and harmony, without a limp. 😉


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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16/06/2011 6:14 pm  

There is no soul... er, spoon.


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 Anonymous
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18/06/2011 2:22 am  

The soul is, in its own nature,
Perfect purity, perfect calm,
Perfect silence;
And as a well springs from the very veins of the earth itself,
So is the soul nurtured of the blood of God,
The ecstasy of things.

Tozeur, 1914ev


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 Anonymous
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23/06/2011 8:25 am  

Is there an article or anything like that, that explains how the lineages broke up? I've read that they broke up, but I haven't read anything on as to why or how it happened. If somebody could post a link to something like an article explaining how this happened, that would be nice.


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Shiva
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23/06/2011 4:41 pm  
"selflessone" wrote:
Is there an article or anything like that, that explains how the lineages broke up? I've read that they broke up, but I haven't read anything on as to why or how it happened.

Here's how it happened:
(1) Crowley died. His stuff and "OTO" designated to Germer; nothing specifically designated to anyone in terms of A.'.A.'..
(2) Things got out of hand (sex scandal & Parsons' death at Agape Lodge).
(3) Crowley's heir, Germer by name, closed everything and then he died after a decade or so.
(4) Several OTO "lineages" sprung up; some court action saw the McMurtry Caliph line triumph and say: This is the true OTO - by order of hizhoner.
(5) Several A.'.A.'. "lineages" sprung up; no court saw this action as yet and hopefully never will. Many now say: This is the A.'.A.'. - by order of myself. "Myself" = the person in charge.

I really don't know of a story to which one can be linked that tells it clearer than that. It's a common phenomenon. A founder dies, then his or her followers split up into different factions, with many claiming to be "a chip off the old block," or perhaps claiming to be "the block" itself, while others quietly change their name and continue the work away from the fray.


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gurugeorge
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23/06/2011 6:46 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
AA does not have secret documents.

Are you sure about that?

Re. the OP, I agree with others who are saying the A:.A:. isn't really a clubby sort of organization like that. It's fine if the various lineages are separate. It's supposed to have a cell structure akin to political revolutionary structures anyway (I think that was deliberate on AC's and GCJ's part).

Re-unification of the OTO might make more sense, and would be a nice idea. It would be nice if Thelema's public face was more coherent, but even then, I don't think it's all that important. It wouldn't be worth the various branches compromising their independent visions too much to get that kind of unity.

"Let a hundred flowers bloom; let a hundred schools of thought contend", as Chairman Mao said.


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 Anonymous
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23/06/2011 6:54 pm  
"gurugeorge" wrote:
Re-unification of the OTO might make more sense, and would be a nice idea.

No, no it would not.....


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 Anonymous
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23/06/2011 7:12 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
while others quietly change their name and continue the work away from the fray.

The wise choice, I think.


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 Anonymous
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24/06/2011 3:46 am  
"Shiva" wrote:
"selflessone" wrote:
Is there an article or anything like that, that explains how the lineages broke up? I've read that they broke up, but I haven't read anything on as to why or how it happened.

Here's how it happened:
(1) Crowley died. His stuff and "OTO" designated to Germer; nothing specifically designated to anyone in terms of A.'.A.'..
(2) Things got out of hand (sex scandal & Parsons' death at Agape Lodge).
(3) Crowley's heir, Germer by name, closed everything and then he died after a decade or so.
(4) Several OTO "lineages" sprung up; some court action saw the McMurtry Caliph line triumph and say: This is the true OTO - by order of hizhoner.
(5) Several A.'.A.'. "lineages" sprung up; no court saw this action as yet and hopefully never will. Many now say: This is the A.'.A.'. - by order of myself. "Myself" = the person in charge.

I really don't know of a story to which one can be linked that tells it clearer than that. It's a common phenomenon. A founder dies, then his or her followers split up into different factions, with many claiming to be "a chip off the old block," or perhaps claiming to be "the block" itself, while others quietly change their name and continue the work away from the fray.

Thanks for that small explanation. I think everybody should just do what they will.


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Shiva
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24/06/2011 4:46 pm  

For people looking for the A.'.A.'., the following notice may be of assistance. Simply substitute A.'.A.'. anywhere "UFO" appears and you'll be able to decode the message:

"If joining a UFO group is your current end goal we typically don't advise the running out and joining of the first UFO group you can find in your area. Even though that may be the end result of all this, we have seen far healthier results when people choose to let their own research and understanding help guide them to the next appropriate step, rather than by following what another person says is the way."
-ufonewmexico.com


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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24/06/2011 5:19 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
For people looking for the A.'.A.'., the following notice may be of assistance. Simply substitute A.'.A.'. anywhere "UFO" appears and you'll be able to decode the message:

"If joining a UFO group is your current end goal we typically don't advise the running out and joining of the first UFO group you can find in your area. Even though that may be the end result of all this, we have seen far healthier results when people choose to let their own research and understanding help guide them to the next appropriate step, rather than by following what another person says is the way."
-ufonewmexico.com

I lol'd. 🙂 True story though.


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 Anonymous
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24/06/2011 5:44 pm  

Appropriate and hilarious!


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AdoniaZanoni
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05/07/2011 12:02 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
AA does not have secret documents (OTO does). It's all been published and posted on the www. AA Oaths specifically engage "for mystery is the enemy of truth," thus I can't think of a single piece of paper that you could get your hands on - that hasn't already been let loose. There are no written secrets that are not artificial. (There are operative secrets that nobody can teach you, although they can be "transmitted" by a competent Master).

During my initial training, I came to an absolutely amazing insight: There is NO Order! When I told my guru this, I was told, "Oh, you just figured that out, did you?" There is only people and their inner Star (it's not "out there"). If a "teacher" has made an operative, ongoing union with that Star, and one gets "hooked up" to that teacher, then one has found the (outer) preliminary goal. All the ladders and trees and systems are maps. We know the map is not the path itself. All the letters (AA, SS, RC. GD, etc) are artificial constructs. If these letters are flashed around by someone with an Ego that they can't release at will, then it's just wishful thinking.

One should be seeking a teacher who has the Light (and the corresponding inner darkness). But going out and knocking is not the way. Perhaps a genuine magickal ceremony to secure such a link will bring a knock on one's door. You will know them by their Light; there is no other criteria. Except confusion - the underlying theme of this thread.

The question I have are we sure every single A.’.A.’. document in terms of Libers, Initiations, etc. has survived, been published or if some are kept secret or remain in Crowley’s notebooks?

If we look there are Libers for initiations for the Probationers, Neophyte and possibly Zelator. They are for the probationer: “XXVIII 28 D Liber Septem Regum Sanctorum, Ritual XXVIII, The Ceremony of the Seven Holy Kings-Being an Initiation Ritual for certain select probationers to A.’.A.’.” , for the neophyte: “LIBER DCLXXI vel PYRAMIDOS A Ritual of Self Initiation based upon the Formula of the Neophyte” and possibly for the Zelator: Liber CXX Cadaveris, the A∴A∴ initiation ritual for the grade of Zelator.

In reference to Liber CXX it is stated on the site below “This ritual is taken from materials in Crowley's manuscript notebooks and is sometimes identified with Liber CXX or Liber Cadaveris, the A∴A∴ initiation ritual for the grade of Zelator referred to in the Equinox volume I. Internal evidence in the present ritual, however, suggests that it is rather an adaptation of the earlier ceremony (which has not been published and may not be extant). A version of this ritual was sent to James Thomas Windram, Frater Semper Paratus 6°=5°, Frater Mercurius X°, the head of Crowley's South African operation, as part of material connected with an organization called the "Order of Thelemites."

See link below: http://www.geocities.ws/nu_isis/liber120.html

My point is our there possibly other A.’.A.’. initiation rituals for grades beyond Zelator such as Practicus to Adeptus Exemptus that have or have not survived or are kept secret that were written by Crowley. Or even different versions for Probationer to Zealtor?

Then there is Liber Mysteriorum. “This book is mentioned in Liber 185, as part of the task of a Dominus Liminis. However, a book with this name does not appear to have survived. Possibly this was/is documentation regarding A∴A∴ rituals.” Also there may or may not even exist Liber Collegii Interni.
See Link: http://hermetic.com/crowley/

The A.•. A.•. Tasks and Oaths for the Grades of Adeptus Major, Adeptus Exemptus and Magister Templi are on face book. I could not verify if they are the real thing.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/AA-Astrum-Argentum/56545783391#!/media/set/?set=a.139963966033178.21615.125143634181878&closeTheater=1

Astron argon website state about Liber Mysteriorum: “ The story of the Chaldean myth of Enlil and Enki is retold in the full Pyramid ritual that is partially revealed in the A.'.A.'.'s Liber Pyramidos and Liber Cadaveris...but clearly and fully delineated in Liber Mysteriorum. Crowley writes of Mysteriorum that it reveals to the Dominis Liminis (the next time in one's Magickal development after Zelator that the Aspirant is aligned with the center of the Tree-of-Life; though not specifically of Tiphareth and yet slightly above the intersection of Sameck and Peh), the full knowledge of Initiation. The full ritual is the full Pyramid ritual given unto the King of Egypt (and from which comes with Akhenaten to Israel as Akhenaten becomes Moses/ Hermes/ Melchizidek et al) at his initial journey to the Duat. This originates out of ancient Chaldea (and from which all the knowledge of the Stars or lower astral originates before the deluge). So Enlil and Enki become important in understanding the deepest roots of Thelema and the process of Initiation”

See Link: http://www.astronargon.us/war.html

Motta’s Equinox V mentions Liber Mysteriorum twice. I do not know if he is insinuating he owned the Liber.

In Equinox V Volume 2 p.379 a footnote states “These “speculations” cannot be commented upon, since they do not bear not only on the IX O.T.O., but also on the XI O.TO. They are treated at length in the Mysterious “Book M”, that is, “Liber Mysteriorum, to which few have access, and even fewer profit from studying.”

In Equinox V Volume 3 p.306 it states “From the querent's point of view, the line means that we should associate only with those who spontaneously seek us. We must never compel people to associate with us through threats or punishment. Whoever associates himself or herself with us through coercion will betray us sooner or later. "Thou hast no right but to do thy will. " Cf Liber Collegii Sancti, the Oaths and Tasks of the Grades. Notice that Candidates are allowed to withdraw from association with the A.'. A.'. whenever they are undergoing the Initiations of the Middle Pillar, and are warned against severing their association while undergoing the Initiation of Practicus, or of Phtlosophus, which are in the Right and Left. (The Zelator may withdraw by Authority, but is warned as to the consequences.) The same is true of the Adeptus Major, though not, necessarily, of the Adeptus Exemptus, as becomes clear from study of Liber Mysteriorum, the legendary "Book M. " that"Christian Rosenkreutz" was alleged to have in his hand on the bier. *

* This assertion by Marcelo Motta does not agree with the orthodox Outer Order and Inner Order symbolisms, in which the Taro, or Book of Thoth, is alleged to beon "Christian Rosenkreutz's breast" on the bier.-Ed.”

Perhaps Liber Mysteriorum might exist and only a few have access to this like Motta’s lineage. Or perhaps it has vanished from time.

Then there is Liber DCC Vesta that was issued in the Equinox IV by A.'.A.'. Triumvirate under V., V.V., S.U.A. This was based on paintings or illustrations done by Crowley as on how he envisioned the robes should be. When other lineages question this the Magickal Link published an illustration by Crowley to show where the source is. The issue becomes do you want to be in an A.’.A.’. that has the exact Robes used when Crowley was alive or do you want to be in an A.’.A.’. that has the new robes Crowley had not been able to implement.? Also will they ever publish the original illustrations that Crowley did? Liber Vesta provides the Robes for Probationer to Dominus Liminis. Another question is did Crowley finish illustrating the robes from Adeptus Minor to Ipsissimus and they are not available to the public?

I do not expect to get any answers and these question are rhetorical. I am writing from a historical and a Crowley collector’s point of view, not an initiate. I just wanted to express that I do not think all the documents of the A.’.A.’. are available to the public and would not expect them to because it is a secret organization.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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05/07/2011 3:24 pm  
"AdoniaZanoni" wrote:
The question I have are we sure every single A.’.A.’. document in terms of Libers, Initiations, etc. has survived, been published or if some are kept secret or remain in Crowley’s notebooks?

We can never be absolutely sure about anything, especially when "proving a negative" is involved. The merely possible thought that there might be a document or a notebook or a scrap of paper out there that we (the people) do not have access to is enough to keep a person awake at night - if they cared.

"AdoniaZanoni" wrote:
I am writing from a historical and a Crowley collector’s point of view, not an initiate. I just wanted to express that I do not think all the documents of the A.’.A.’. are available to the public and would not expect them to because it is a secret organization.

Aha! I am writing from an initiated point of view and certainly not that of a collector, having sold my entire collection of Crowley books while retaining only one.

For the initiate's purpose, it doesn't matter. Enough is available for the aspirant to "make his own connection with the secret chiefs" or "to arrange a dialogue with his or her angel" and the color of robes will have no influence in such matters. For the collector, there is always the hope and the possibility that some additional material will surface.

That (written above) is merely two points of view. However, the statement, "because it is a secret organization," may get a few more points involved in the view.

My view says, "Nonsense!" OTO proclaimed itself "a serious and secret order," and we might expect them to have secret documents (all of which - of the originals - have been published, but then the new, revised stuff may be temporarily secret, it being a "temporal" order).

The A.'.A.'. proclaims itself (by "inference" internal to its official documents) open to talking and explanations, even unto the "profane" - if one is stupid enough to actually run around blabbing this stuff that most people don't want to hear about - except maybe to turn you in to the Inquisition or the mob.
A.'.A.'. has no oaths of secrecy. It is not, by its own definition, "a secret organization," although there might be individual participants who play the game that way.


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Azidonis
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05/07/2011 5:32 pm  

93,

"Shiva" wrote:
A.'.A.'. has no oaths of secrecy. It is not, by its own definition, "a secret organization," although there might be individual participants who play the game that way.

Interestingly enough, information has always been given to me on a "need to know" basis. Sometimes, I feel like screaming, "You had this the whole time!?!?!," but it comes when it needs to. As this is the way I learned, its really how I have approached others. There is tons of information "out there", but the "need to know" is quite a different animal.

93 93/93


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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05/07/2011 8:04 pm  

From Jerry Cornelius' Blogeria, July 2 (3 days ago):

For the history buffs: Nostradamus died on this date in 1568. He was buried standing upright in one of the walls of the Church of the Cordeliers at Salon, with a marble plaque attached to the wall in his memory. However, rumors began to circulate almost immediately that there was a secret document in his coffin that would decode all his prophecies. After almost hundred and thirty years of fearing looters, his body was finally removed for safekeeping and no document was found; just an amulet.

Just an Amulet? Mein Gott! They were looking so much for secret papers that they overlooked (frowned upon) just an Amulet.

Anyhow, the missing secret document(s) archetype has been around for a while.


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Q789
 Q789
(@q789)
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07/07/2011 10:22 am  

I think one perspective is that the AA is a group of souls that have reincarnated numerous times to reach illumination and to serve the great work. Regaurdless of whether the incarnation is Western mystery tradition, buddist or hindi. I think that it is obvious here that many of us are regulars in the western mystery tradition.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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07/07/2011 3:17 pm  
"Q789" wrote:
I think one perspective is that the AA is a group of souls that have reincarnated numerous times to reach illumination and to serve the great work. Regaurdless of whether the incarnation is Western mystery tradition, buddist or hindi.

Vishnu

I think that it is obvious here that many of us are regulars in the western mystery tradition.

Perhaps. Many of us aren't too.

I'm more eastern, personally. The west has so many props, it's almost insulting.


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 Anonymous
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09/07/2011 1:40 am  

Each of the different lineages have gone their own ways with the teachings and so I don't think it's really even plausible to unite them. I don't think it's necessary either, different avenues of approach up the mountain so to speak. I like the idea of a non-biased website discussing them though. Did you ever post the link to your website Azidonis, what of it that you created?


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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09/07/2011 5:42 am  

93,

"kuniggety" wrote:
Each of the different lineages have gone their own ways with the teachings and so I don't think it's really even plausible to unite them. I don't think it's necessary either, different avenues of approach up the mountain so to speak. I like the idea of a non-biased website discussing them though. Did you ever post the link to your website Azidonis, what of it that you created?

No, I didn't. I created the website, but as I began creating the site, I started to realize that perhaps things are best left alone at the moment. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," kind of thing.

Yes, there are many lineages and claimant groups, and the website would help newcomers sort through the riffraff, but the website could only offer to guarantee authenticity through paper trails at the least.

This, I think would do a huge disservice to the A:.A:., as not all Masters have paper trails leading back to Crowley. Following this line of thought, I think it would do a disservice to such Masters, in that it may lead naive people to think they are somehow discredited.

I remember being younger, and thoroughly obsessed with the paper trails. That obsession, if you will, motivated me to learn as much about the various lines that I could, and it has helped me view varying perspectives over the years. If the information had simply been handed to me, I may not recognize the value that search has had.

The A:.A:. System is very effective, and if used properly it will Initiate. As long as the various lineages continue to Initiate, and continue to "strive ever to more", I don't see a problem with the lines. Each lineage has its own method of gaining Probationers and such, and those methods work well for them. Some lineages work better in Silence, some work better in Speech. It would be against the grain, in my opinion, to disrupt that flow unless it was necessary.

If Thelema becomes a major movement, a Gateway to the A:.A:. lineages (at the least), is a good idea. But at the current time, it does not seem too necessary. I could be wrong. "There is help and hope in other spells." There are ways to help shine a Light on the Sanctuary for new Seekers that such a Gateway site cannot accomplish.

Also, there is the consideration of Liber Tzaddi, where some are attracted to the angel, and some to the demon. Ideally, the person attracted to the angel would petition the lineage that portrays itself as dealing with such, and likewise with the demon. This falls short of the ideal, as one would want the former in the demon school, and the latter in the angel school. Please note this does not necessarily mean "angels and demons". The truth is within the symbolism and the reactions thereto.

Here is an example. When I took my first steps on the Path, I began with ritual magick. I did a ton of it. Everywhere I looked, everywhere I went, everything I did became in some way connected with ritual magick. It was a heavy part of my life. When I joined the A:.A:., my initial Superior happened to have more of a Sufi influence. He taught me an invaluable amount of lessons both in Yoga and in life. In truth, had I stayed with ritual magick only, and not balanced the scales with such heavy Yoga ideas and practices, I may have ended up being completely imbalanced in that regard. Over the years, I have taken quite fondly to Yoga, and consider it to be much more effective for me than ritual magick. My thoughts, words, and deeds are much more Eastern than Western, and I think it has balanced itself out quite nicely. My background in ritual magick has also allowed me to relate to those who have a higher tendency and aptitude for ritual magick than say, Raja Yoga.

But all of that stuff I didn't do. I didn't seek that out. I sought enlightenment, or attainment. I sought to understand nature and its dealings, how it effects both the self and the not-self. Through that aspiration, the proper channels were opened that allowed me to develop a more balanced art and practice.

The Gateway, could serve to alter that course for some people, and I do not think that is healthy. I think that the point of even making the A:.A:. known to the world at all is to shine a Light towards the path that will lead one to the Sanctuary, and that is already being done.

Perhaps someone disagrees. Perhaps someone has been motivated by this thread and decided that an un-biased Gateway is a good thing. That person, or people may choose to develop the Gateway, and I wish them all the best.

But for now, I personally have to concentrate on the Link, and not the Gateway.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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09/07/2011 5:17 pm  

I hear you on changing your outlook over time. When I first joined the A.:A.:, I was a young scorpio who had a keen interest with theory and some practical experience. My teacher (which is still my teacher) was about as opposite as you can get...all practical and while he understood the theory, he never got into the weeds with it (with me anyways). Over time I've found my attitude shift towards mysticism, using yoga and other exercises as tools.

I agree to disagree on a website. I see it the same as any other research, whether about qabala, computer science, or even cars. It's a scientific approach in noting down what you discover and find and make it available for others.


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Azidonis
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09/07/2011 6:24 pm  

93,

"kuniggety" wrote:
I agree to disagree on a website. I see it the same as any other research, whether about qabala, computer science, or even cars. It's a scientific approach in noting down what you discover and find and make it available for others.

Then maybe you should make it? 🙂

As for what I have discovered concerning the various lineages, I've posted much of that throughout these boards. Even so, the information is only partial.

Something that people don't always understand, is that a Neophyte can accept Probationers, and eventually create a Link. That said, there are many more "schools of thought" and "paper trails" than people care to believe. The site therefore, is a Work in and of itself.

Unless I had the time and the energy to make the proper contacts and make it as all-inclusive as possible, which means tracing every trail, the endeavor would be for naught.

I would definitely want to include a section for those without paper trails as well.

While the site would be a great service, not everyone would see it as a Gateway. Some may view it as a "find your guru here" website, which I think is just bad. The real Masters have their methods for finding suitable Students. The very course of nature assists in this.

People are fickle. Can you imagine the "if it's not on the website, it's not legit" claims? Imagine the Masters who place their schools on the site, smaller schools that work best with only a handful of trusted people, suddenly getting bombarded with requests to become Students. Something like that could either enhance or destroy the dynamic of such a school. Remember, "refuse none".

The maintainer of such a site would be held accountable for that, either for good or ill. There are really very many scenarios, and I for one could think myself into doing it as much as I could think myself into not doing it. The next 5-10 years of my life are pretty busy already, and some of those endeavors will indeed end up opening new doors for Students.

Doing the site myself is not out of the question completely, just a "no" for right now. In the future, if it has not been done, I may still do it. But if I do, it will take more preparation and forethought than just typing some words into an interface. One thing I would like to do first, is get into contact with the main public lineages, which would mean contacting at least the Chancellors of Ray Eales (Motta), David Bersson (Motta), J. Daniel Gunther (Motta, I'm pretty sure), James Eshelman (Estai), David Shoemaker (Estai), and Jerry Cornelius (McMurtry), to name some of the more prominent "paper trails". That doesn't include any schools which may have been "born of them", that is Students that moved on to create the Link and establish their own schools. It does not include schools like that of Frater Shiva, who even if he did not have a verifiable "paper trail", I would put on the site anyway. It does not include others I know who have worked the A:.A:. System and attained, and verily are Members of the A:.A:., though without paper trails. And of course, the list is not international.

And then there is always the, "I saw a name above, and that person is a Black Brother" stuff. The site could literally turn into a sort of "A:.A:. Inquisition". Imagine the pettiness of, "Care Frater, We are writing to inform you that X School views Y School as Black Brothers of the Left-hand Path. It is not Our Will to be associated with such a School. Please remove them from your listing, or remove our School from your listing. Fraternally, Chancellor X." But... the goal of the site is to remain un-biased...

It is really no small task, all things considered.

93 93/93


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Shiva
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09/07/2011 7:48 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
Can you imagine the "if it's not on the website, it's not legit" claims?

"If Crowley didn't say or write it, it's not legitimate!"

"Azidonis" wrote:
But... the goal of the site is to remain un-biased...

Uh, isn't that the lashtal theme? How many attacks of "unbiasedness" have you read? I've seen quite a few. I've never found any of them to be true, but your point is well made. There are orgs and trolls who will snap and bite - right?


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Azidonis
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09/07/2011 8:50 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
There are orgs and trolls who will snap and bite - right?

Right.

And to be honest, if I was going to willingly deal with that mess, I'd just start my own School of Thought....


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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10/07/2011 12:15 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
Then maybe you should make it? 🙂

Unfortunately, taking a handful of advanced CompSci and mathematics courses, a full time job, and a family doesn't leave much room on my plate for anything else. Otherwise, it would seem like an interesting project.

I am tracking everything that you're saying. It would be no small undertaking, to say the least.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/07/2011 10:32 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
This, I think would do a huge disservice to the A:.A:., as not all Masters have paper trails leading back to Crowley. Following this line of thought, I think it would do a disservice to such Masters, in that it may lead naive people to think they are somehow discredited.

Isn't it more of a disservice to any real A.'.A.'. that does have an unbroken paper trail to accept the claims of groups that don't? If there is such a thing as an A.'.A.'. lineage with an unbroken chain leading back to the founders, then they really are the A.'.A.'.. As long as such a lineage still exists the other contenders are making false claims. Sure, they might have followed the A.'.A.'. system and attained but they are not the A.'.A.'., just a group (admittedly lead by genuine Masters) calling themselves that. If however, there is no longer any group with an unbroken paper trail then the A.'.A.'. no longer exists, just various groups following that system and "by their fruits shall ye Know them".

What I'm getting at is there is a difference between Masters and the A.'.A.'., meaning the A.'.A.'. as a temporal order.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
11/07/2011 3:31 pm  

93,

"nashimiron" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
This, I think would do a huge disservice to the A:.A:., as not all Masters have paper trails leading back to Crowley. Following this line of thought, I think it would do a disservice to such Masters, in that it may lead naive people to think they are somehow discredited.

Isn't it more of a disservice to any real A.'.A.'. that does have an unbroken paper trail to accept the claims of groups that don't? If there is such a thing as an A.'.A.'. lineage with an unbroken chain leading back to the founders, then they really are the A.'.A.'.. As long as such a lineage still exists the other contenders are making false claims. Sure, they might have followed the A.'.A.'. system and attained but they are not the A.'.A.'., just a group (admittedly lead by genuine Masters) calling themselves that. If however, there is no longer any group with an unbroken paper trail then the A.'.A.'. no longer exists, just various groups following that system and "by their fruits shall ye Know them".

What I'm getting at is there is a difference between Masters and the A.'.A.'., meaning the A.'.A.'. as a temporal order.

The A:.A:. proper is not a temporal order, but a Supernal one (ie. there is no A:.A:. proper). It's one thing that makes the endeavor difficult. The A:.A:. temporal has enough on its plates to not be bothered with its own Brethren trying to claim some sort of sole rights to anything.

I see your side of the paper trail argument, and that's part of what I was getting at. As they are now, things are nice and quiet and everyone moves along quite well. Throwing them all into the same mix could become very explosive.

Here's the thing... a Master is a Master. Any real Master, ALL real Masters, are Members of the A:.A:. by definition. Therefore, to differentiate between a Master with a paper trail and a Master without one is a complete folly after a certain point.

Let's be honest. At this point in human evolution a paper trail back to Crowley is little more than just a bell and whistle to attract Seekers.

If however, there is no longer any group with an unbroken paper trail

I've already posted the names of some "well known" paper trail holders. Like them or not, they have the authenticity.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/07/2011 3:40 pm  

Paper trails and puppy dog tails..


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/07/2011 4:50 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
Here's the thing... a Master is a Master. Any real Master, ALL real Masters, are Members of the A:.A:. by definition. Therefore, to differentiate between a Master with a paper trail and a Master without one is a complete folly after a certain point.

I agree that a Master is automatically considered by us to be a member of the A.'.A.'. (supernal), but that doesn't necessarily mean they got there through the traditional A.'.A.'. (temporal) route.

Even if they got there by working through the system, without an unbroken chain back to the founders any temporal order they start up is their own, and if they call it the A.'.A.'. in order to hoodwink would-be aspirants into joining their order it's dishonest however good they are. If they were honest they would give their order it's own name, like the A.'.B.'. maybe or something.

The discussion here is after all about the A.'.A.'. (temporal order) through which aspirants begin the process of working their way to the A.'.A.'. (Great White Brotherhood / Supernal). Of course paper trails and legitimacy only matter in the temporal world where hopefully most of us are operating to some degree or other. 😉

Another thought - as Crowley says the A.'.A.'. only knocks once, if an order with an unbroken chain back to the founders exists that's the one everyone wants to join, not one that has been created by folks that never got past Probationer or were expelled, as that would not be the order that Crowley was talking about. If you were in an order that you later discovered was not as legitimate as you initially thought, you could with clear conscious jump ship and join another A.'.A.'. and if they asked, you could say you have never been a member of the A.'.A.'.. 😕


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
11/07/2011 4:52 pm  
"LucemPortabo" wrote:
Paper trails and puppy dog tails..

How insightful!

What we need is the ability to mark threads for follow up, so we can get email that there has been a response to a thread we want to watch, without having to post into the thread to get said email.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
11/07/2011 5:02 pm  

93,

"nashimiron" wrote:
I agree that a Master is automatically considered by us to be a member of the A.'.A.'. (supernal), but that doesn't necessarily mean they got there through the traditional A.'.A.'. (temporal) route.

This is a part of the dilemma of the website idea. You would seek to exclude, while I would seek to include. Neither approach is necessarily "wrong". It's just another example as to why I haven't made the site myself.

"nashimiron" wrote:
Even if they got there by working through the system, without an unbroken chain back to the founders any temporal order they start up is their own, and if they call it the A.'.A.'. in order to hoodwink would-be aspirants into joining their order it's dishonest however good they are. If they were honest they would give their order it's own name, like the A.'.B.'. maybe or something.

lol They wouldn't call it A:.A:.

I don't suppose I made my point. If I were to make said site, sure the idea is a Gateway. However, in doing that I would include schools that aren't A:.A:. as well. For that matter, one could argue that Jerry Cornelius' school is not A:.A:., though it is. It's not that I would want to make an A:.A:. site and use it as a way to advertise other schools, but that beyond a certain point there is no difference. And while people don't always know or see that, it would be wrong for me to make such differences when they are not necessary.

"nashimiron" wrote:
The discussion here is after all about the A.'.A.'. (temporal order) through which aspirants begin the process of working their way to the A.'.A.'. (Great White Brotherhood / Supernal). Of course paper trails and legitimacy only matter in the temporal world where hopefully most of us are operating to some degree or other. 😉

What temporal order are you talking about? The little one-on-one sessions one gets with a Superior? Really nash, what temporal order? A stack of signed oaths? A stack of magickal records?

"nashimiron" wrote:
Another thought - as Crowley says the A.'.A.'. only knocks once, if an order with an unbroken chain back to the founders exists that's the one everyone wants to join, not one that has been created by folks that never got past Probationer or were expelled, as that would not be the order that Crowley was talking about. If you were in an order that you later discovered was not as legitimate as you initially thought, you could with clear conscious jump ship and join another A.'.A.'. and if they asked, you could say you have never been a member of the A.'.A.'.. 😕

I've heard this type of thing before. People have said, "If you join our lineage, you have to admit that you were never a part of a real A:.A:. lineage," which to be honest, I think is utter bullshit.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/07/2011 5:21 pm  

Presumably, any "newcomer" who is looking for the "valid" A:.A:. by way of a paper-trail, would be doing so because they are the type to take Crowley as the supreme source, and likewise any lineages with direct descent from Crowley.

This idea in itself is absurd to me. People and organizations change vastly over time. Being that Crowley hasn't held a position of overseeing the activities of any organization since his death, the whole point is moot, IMO. Crowley himself changed his opinion of his followers/disciples/students/etc and their abilities quite often. Even if any A:.A:. lineage had a valid paper-trail claim, leading directly to Crowley, it wouldn't mean anything at all in itself.

Constructing a website such as is being discussed would be interesting from an academic point of view, but as far as using it to determine what organization is valid and which is not- I guess that depends on how you view the work.

The "insightful" point I was attempting to make is only seen if you carry the statement to completion..


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
11/07/2011 9:17 pm  
"LucemPortabo" wrote:
The "insightful" point I was attempting to make is only seen if you carry the statement to completion..

Been there, done that. What's next?

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/07/2011 9:53 pm  

For what it's worth, I think one of the most confusing things that Aleister Crowley ever did was to give his temporal order the same name as the supernal order. I'm sure he had meaningful intentions and probably couldn't have guessed what the state of Thelema would be in the 21st century. This alone has caused so much arguing and debate.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/07/2011 9:54 pm  

93,

... nihil obstat, Frater Lucius: that was a VERY inpired "speech", and I absolutely agree.

93 93/93

~Tbubui


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
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11/07/2011 10:10 pm  
"kuniggety" wrote:
For what it's worth, I think one of the most confusing things that Aleister Crowley ever did was to give his temporal order the same name as the supernal order. I'm sure he had meaningful intentions and probably couldn't have guessed what the state of Thelema would be in the 21st century. This alone has caused so much arguing and debate.

Agreed. I usually refer to Outer, Inner, and A:.A:. (instead of S:.S:.). I suppose I should go with S:.S:.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
11/07/2011 10:17 pm  

93,

"LucemPortabo" wrote:
Presumably, any "newcomer" who is looking for the "valid" A:.A:. by way of a paper-trail, would be doing so because they are the type to take Crowley as the supreme source, and likewise any lineages with direct descent from Crowley.

This is a very broad assumption, which does not hold true in all situations.

"LucemPortabo" wrote:
This idea in itself is absurd to me.

I get what you're saying, but again, you are basing this opinion on a very broad assumption.

"LucemPortabo" wrote:
People and organizations change vastly over time. Being that Crowley hasn't held a position of overseeing the activities of any organization since his death, the whole point is moot, IMO.

You seem to be implying here that since Crowley is dead, the system cannot be used as he intended. If not, would you mind clarifying this point?

"LucemPortabo" wrote:
Crowley himself changed his opinion of his followers/disciples/students/etc and their abilities quite often. Even if any A:.A:. lineage had a valid paper-trail claim, leading directly to Crowley, it wouldn't mean anything at all in itself.

Not to you. Again, another broad assumption. The idea behind "creating the Order A:.A:." is so that there is indeed a Shining Light for the masses to see. That said, paper trails are assumed to "validate" the continual shining of that Light. Whether they actually do so or not is another topic entirely.

"LucemPortabo" wrote:
Constructing a website such as is being discussed would be interesting from an academic point of view, but as far as using it to determine what organization is valid and which is not- I guess that depends on how you view the work.

Which is another reason it could be a disservice, as previously stated multiple times. A valid paper trail does not necessarily lead to a valid Link. Likewise, a valid Link does not necessarily come with a valid paper trail.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/07/2011 10:49 pm  

The paper trail is just the outward evidence of the line of succession. It's supposed to show where there is a continuous thread running right back to the founding of the order.

If someone forms a breakaway splinter group or starts an order from scratch, they can't claim to be connected to that line of succession however good their order is. What I'm getting at is it's not the physical paper trail that's important it's the line of succession (the Link).

With all of that said, a brand new order following A.'.A.'. lines could be just as good or even better than the real A.'.A.'. and forge their own Link. And that would be entirely down to the people in it. But if they try to pass themselves off as the real A.'.A.'. I would question their motives. Sure they might be linked up to the Supernal A.'.A.'., but if they claim to be the temporal A.'.A.'., well it's bullsh*t isn't it?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/07/2011 11:33 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
93,

"LucemPortabo" wrote:
Presumably, any "newcomer" who is looking for the "valid" A:.A:. by way of a paper-trail, would be doing so because they are the type to take Crowley as the supreme source, and likewise any lineages with direct descent from Crowley.

This is a very broad assumption, which does not hold true in all situations.

So then, what would the most legitimate paper trail ultimately lead backwards to, if not to Crowley?

"Azidonis" wrote:
You seem to be implying here that since Crowley is dead, the system cannot be used as he intended. If not, would you mind clarifying this point?

That is not what I intend to imply at all. What I imply is simply that even if one organization presents a solid case as to being the rightful heir to the A:.A:. name, that this in itself does not mean anything to whether or not they are using the system correctly, or as Crowley intended it to be used, or in any other manner. It only proves the right to the name, and that is all. And even then, only in a "legal" type sense, as if they are not using and teaching the system correctly, then obviously they do not have a claim to represent the A:.A:. officially. The proof is in the method alone.

"Azidonis" wrote:
Which is another reason it could be a disservice, as previously stated multiple times. A valid paper trail does not necessarily lead to a valid Link. Likewise, a valid Link does not necessarily come with a valid paper trail.

93 93/93

We are in agreement, then.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/07/2011 11:37 pm  

And all I am really saying is, who cares. Just do the f**king work. This is precisely what the A:.A:. is not about


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5024
11/07/2011 11:39 pm  
"nashimiron" wrote:
The paper trail is just the outward evidence of the line of succession. It's supposed to show where there is a continuous thread running right back to the founding of the order ... What I'm getting at is it's not the physical paper trail that's important it's the line of succession (the Link).

This is stated very clearly. Let me add:
Line=Link=Lineage
All samee thingee!
which is what you said.

"nashimiron" wrote:
... but if they claim to be the temporal A.'.A.'., well it's bullsh*t isn't it?

Not if they can find a federal judge, or some similar justice of the peace, to agree with them. Don't laugh and don't throw turds at Shiva. We've seen such things happen before, haven't we? Ah, it takes me back to the days when my ancestor, W.Q. Judge by name, was battling that bitch Annie Besant for control of the Theosophical Society, and other similar scenarios.

Of course, lashtalians will still be able to read between the lines and see behind the scenes, and if they apply what you have said, then they need no more criteria.

If I was younger, I would grab those A's and those Dots and that seven-fold Seal of Babalon, and I'd start filing with the Bureau of Trademarks and Copyrights and Patents everywhere in the world. Then I'd get me a good attorney and head off to conflict in federal court with any one of you imposters who says I'm not the Wiz himself.

But that's not a good idea for two reasons: (1) I'm not younger any more and I don't have the time or the energy for such an ambitious project, and (2) There's no money in it, what with there being no dues or fees (well, just a guinea or so to pay for the document you receive). So you see, one would need to undertake this adventure as a hobby, or at least a-vocationally, and it would help greatly if the Wiz was independently wealthy - because he or she is gonna have thousands of students, and the administrative burden will be great indeed; it's a good thing the Wiz will have all those Exempt Adepts to run all those Inner Orders and confer the authority to construct those Outer Orders in the marketplace with the two A's and the three Dots shining down upon the masses.

Say (seriously), how much is a Guinea in U.S. dollars today?


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
12/07/2011 12:20 am  
"LucemPortabo" wrote:
And all I am really saying is, who cares. Just do the f**king work. This is precisely what the A:.A:. is not about

Of course, but that's not what this thread is about.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
12/07/2011 12:25 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
Of course, but that's not what this thread is about.

That is true. My Apologies for the interruption.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
12/07/2011 12:26 am  

Here...

"LucemPortabo" wrote:
Presumably, any "newcomer" who is looking for the "valid" A:.A:. by way of a paper-trail, would be doing so because they are the type to take Crowley as the supreme source,

That's your broad assumption.

"Azidonis" wrote:
You seem to be implying here that since Crowley is dead, the system cannot be used as he intended. If not, would you mind clarifying this point?
"LucemPortabo" wrote:
That is not what I intend to imply at all. What I imply is simply that even if one organization presents a solid case as to being the rightful heir to the A:.A:. name, that this in itself does not mean anything to whether or not they are using the system correctly, or as Crowley intended it to be used, or in any other manner. It only proves the right to the name, and that is all. And even then, only in a "legal" type sense, as if they are not using and teaching the system correctly, then obviously they do not have a claim to represent the A:.A:. officially. The proof is in the method alone.

Yep, said this earlier in the thread.

"LucemPortabo" wrote:
We are in agreement, then.

We are, but it doesn't seem like you took the time to read the entire thread.

In order to stop the double-posting bit... this thread is about the various lineages, and the idea was presented to create a common, unbiased avenue in which every one of them could be presented fairly. Since then, we've basically been discussing the pros and cons of such an avenue. The entirety of the thread is aimed at making the initial search less confusing for new seekers.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
12/07/2011 12:43 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
Here...
That's your broad assumption.

I do not find it to be a wild assumption. I've not met too many people looking to join the A:.A:. who've not heard about it by means related to interest in Crowley. I grant that this is based on my own limited experience, but it seems to me any newcomer looking for the "real deal" would no doubt be impressed (at least initially) by what seems to be a valid connection to the originator of the system.

"Azidonis" wrote:
Here...
In order to stop the double-posting bit... this thread is about the various lineages, and the idea was presented to create a common, unbiased avenue in which every one of them could be presented fairly. Since then, we've basically been discussing the pros and cons of such an avenue. The entirety of the thread is aimed at making the initial search less confusing for new seekers.

I've read the entire thread, and have in fact been keeping up with it as it goes. I grant that I'm covering ground that's already been touched upon, and for that I offer my sincerest apologies for entering into this conversation with my rehashed thoughts.

My own personal opinion is that it may be helpful to many newcomers to have such a resource available, and would also be interesting on a purely intellectual level for many. However I don't necessarily think its would impact the direction of said newcomer in the path which they ultimately take, and the manner in which they proceed.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
09/08/2011 9:41 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
I have posted this link a time or two, but here it is again:
http://mystic-history.angelfire.com/3grades.ht m"> http://mystic-history.angelfire.com/3grades.htm

This is a wondeful post. But please correct your error:

"Among the Shamans of the Americas, the term, Nagual, is used."

Nagual was to my knowledge only ever used by Carlos Castaneda who was a fraud who invented "Don Juan Matos" who never existed.

What you mean is absolutely correct I feel. But the term reeks too much of the "Don Juan hoax" 🙂

Otherwise a fine link.

I think the question Azidonis is asking (at least I am asking it now) is to which Crowleyan-based A:. A:. order to best turn to.

Mayhap this question will get answered, mayhap not.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
09/08/2011 10:32 pm  

BTW did you already see that the two As when one A is reversed and both layed over each other become the sigil of Saturn (as in Agrippa's de occultga philosophia)
and the dots the hexagram?

I recently discovered that but that may be known to you all along, still it did have meaning for me

Thus the A:. A:. is unified, at least íts ladders eh letters 🙂


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herupakraath
(@herupakraath)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 451
09/08/2011 11:57 pm  
"FraDiavolo" wrote:
This is a wondeful post. But please correct your error:

"Among the Shamans of the Americas, the term, Nagual, is used."

Nagual was to my knowledge only ever used by Carlos Castaneda who was a fraud who invented "Don Juan Matos" who never existed.

Actually, you Sir, are in error. The terms Naugal and Tona ( not "Tonal" as described by Castaneda) can be found in The Golden Bough, as documented by Sir J. G. Frazer, which perhaps, contributes even more to the case of Castaneda being a fraud, since The Golden Bough was the bible of anthropology at the time Castaneda was a student at UCLA.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4052
10/08/2011 12:25 am  
"FraDiavolo" wrote:
Nagual was to my knowledge only ever used by Carlos Castaneda who was a fraud who invented "Don Juan Matos" who never existed.

There's no evidence that he existed. That's hardly ground for you to declare definitively that he never existed


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