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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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10/08/2011 2:05 am  
"FraDiavolo" wrote:
I think the question Azidonis is asking (at least I am asking it now) is to which Crowleyan-based A:. A:. order to best turn to.

This is most certainly not the question I was asking when I made this thread.

Welcome to lashtal.com, by the way. Quite an introduction you've made for yourself thus far.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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10/08/2011 4:07 am  
"FraDiavolo" wrote:
I think the question ... is to which Crowleyan-based A:. A:. order to best turn to.

What is this? The daily version of the Universal Joke? Everybody knows it depends on:

(1) The seeker's karma;

(2) The "order's" policy (1.e., open, closed, waiting in line, make an appointment, don't ever expect to get a reply, and other "blinds").

(3) The ability to quickly "sense" fiction from reality ... even in the realm of avatars and nicknames, eh?

Did I ever tell you about Stuart? No, I think not. I'll tell it to you here, but it'll be going as an archetypal case history into Behind the Veil.

You see ...
There was this guy named Stuart who found out about A.'.A.'.,
and he was obviously looking for somewhere to play.

He announced to me that he had come to a crossroads in his life. He would be choosing one of three paths: (1) The A.'.A.'., (2) The Junior Chamber of Commerce, or (3) Raising Chinchillas for coats, pets and profit. Have you ever heard of such an amazing array of choices? I remain amused to this very day.

Stuart had just started "sitting" (i.e., performing meditation exercises) for awhile, when he asked me for a "reefer" to aid in his task (nobody called it that anymore, it was a "joint" in our language). He never had one before, so he asked how it was used. I told him and he went home, ready to conquer the stars. Astral projection or an hour's asana, maybe a banishing - I advised him to do all three.

But, for some comically-cosmically-inclined reason, he decided to test this stuff in a different way. He and his wife had company, a dinner for four. Just before sitting down to begin eating, Stuart stepped out onto his balcony and inhaled the incense from his "reefer." Then he went in and sat down to dinner but became some sort of maniacal idiot.

I never did get a clear picture of what he said or did, but it was so close to raving insanity that ...

His guests excused themself, running away home;
no dinner was eaten, but his wife got on the phone ...
to me.

She described his symptoms and told me to hurry
so I drove on over without any worry.

I walked in the door; the wife pointing her finger at me ...
I blame YOU for all this ! she screeched, without any glee.

"Of course," I responded; I'm always to blame;
Stuart sat on the floor, his face filled with shame.

And that is the end of the story.
Did he chose Chichillas or the Chamber? It certainly wasn't A.'.A.'..
I don't think his wife would allow him to play.
... any more.


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 Anonymous
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10/08/2011 4:38 am  

馃槅 Great post Shiva! Hilarious! 馃槅


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 Anonymous
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10/08/2011 6:59 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
Quite an introduction you've made for yourself thus far.

Irony? Sarcasm? Wotever, I like it! You know it can only get better from this 馃槈

I started my first post when first reading the first page of the thread but never did correct it and even then didn't get it that it was MY question after all 馃檪

Cool post, Shiva, made me laugh 馃榾
He's a poet and
we all knoet

But which path did he choose?

About Nagual, sorry, I didn't know the term existed outside Castaneda's imagined shamanistic journeys.


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 Anonymous
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10/08/2011 7:01 am  
"FraDiavolo" wrote:
BTW did you already see that the two As when one A is reversed and both layed over each other become the sigil of Saturn (as in Agrippa's de occultga philosophia)
and the dots the hexagram?

noone commented on this one. Is it because it is so obvious to anyone and only I recently got it? 馃槢


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Frater_HPK
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10/08/2011 9:16 am  
"FraDiavolo" wrote:
About Nagual, sorry, I didn't know the term existed outside Castaneda's imagined shamanistic journeys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagual

The Western study of Nagualism was initiated by noted archaeologist, linguist and ethnologist Daniel Garrison Brinton who published "Nagualism: A Study in Native-American Folklore and History" which chronicled historical interpretations of the word and those who practiced nagualism in Mexico in 1894. He identified various beliefs associated with nagualism in some modern Mexican communities such as the Mixe, the Nahua, the Zapotec and the Mixtec.

馃檪


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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10/08/2011 9:38 am  
"FraDiavolo" wrote:
"FraDiavolo" wrote:
BTW did you already see that the two As when one A is reversed and both layed over each other become the sigil of Saturn (as in Agrippa's de occultga philosophia)
and the dots the hexagram?

noone commented on this one. Is it because it is so obvious to anyone and only I recently got it? 馃槢

I'll never forget the time I first realized how the 5=6 and the 11 (Had/Nu) equations were both contained in Abrahadabra. Enjoy...


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 Anonymous
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10/08/2011 4:31 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
I'll never forget the time I first realized how the 5=6 and the 11 (Had/Nu) equations were both contained in Abrahadabra. Enjoy...

Thank you 馃檪

It is connected to the 11 grades, right?

The reversal and union of one A and one A reversed is also deep meaningful and I'm just beginning to comprehend ... or trying to.

There are so many secrets in the hexagram, it's union and opposites, and in all the meanings of A:.A:. too it seems endless....just the few thoughts that spring up in a simple brainstorming are profund, fuck it.


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 Anonymous
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10/08/2011 8:06 pm  

I didn't want to say 'fuck' the devil made me do it. 馃榾

will there ever be a re-unification of the A虏:.'s? "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves."


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Azidonis
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11/08/2011 12:23 am  
"FraDiavolo" wrote:
I didn't want to say 'fuck' the devil made me do it. 馃榾

will there ever be a re-unification of the A虏:.'s? "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves."

Someone give this guy a prescription...


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 Anonymous
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12/08/2011 6:05 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
Someone give this guy a prescription...

you hurt me 馃檪 this is a quote from George R.R. Martin


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k4n3
 k4n3
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18/08/2011 8:42 pm  
"FraDiavolo" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
I'll never forget the time I first realized how the 5=6 and the 11 (Had/Nu) equations were both contained in Abrahadabra. Enjoy...

Thank you 馃檪

It is connected to the 11 grades, right?

The reversal and union of one A and one A reversed is also deep meaningful and I'm just beginning to comprehend ... or trying to.

There are so many secrets in the hexagram, it's union and opposites, and in all the meanings of A:.A:. too it seems endless....just the few thoughts that spring up in a simple brainstorming are profund, fuck it.

also worth noting from Liber Rationis:

CCXX I.24: "six and fifty"

which in Greek is

ex kai pentekonta = 980 = Andres Adelphoi, "Brothers, lit. Men-brothers" [Ac. 2.29; 15.7],
also 9+8=XVII, Atu The Star, etc.

CCXX III.9: "the Law of the Battle of Conquest"

in Greek

Nomoy Polemioy Nike = 1383 = Atrekes Atrapos, "True Path", another reference to A.路.A.路.

and another interesting reference to A.路.A.路. by the method of Gematria of the Greek Qabalah by the same author:

"The A.路.A.路. is the Fixed Star (Aplanes Aster = 485, st = 6), secure in Its orbit, doing Its Will. (4+8+5 = 17 = Atu XVII, The Star.) As such it is even mentioned in the original documents of the Bornless Ritual as Jeou (Ieoy = 485), an important Gnostic entity, and is honoured in the Bacchanalian cry, "evoi!" (eyoi = 485), and as the Woman in Revelation 17.3 (gynaika = 485) It is called by the ignorant an abomination (bdelygma = 485) and lawless as well as godless (athemiton = 485) because It knows Very God and does not recognize the false gods of petty men nor follow the trite laws of petty humans--It is only subject to the true Law (ennomos = 485). And the initiates of this Order are known by their affinity with It, their One Pointedness and their being themselves as a Fixed Star."


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 Anonymous
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19/08/2011 11:34 pm  
"k4n3" wrote:
"The A.路.A.路. is the Fixed Star (Aplanes Aster = 485, st = 6), secure in Its orbit, doing Its Will. (4+8+5 = 17 = Atu XVII, The Star.) As such it is even mentioned in the original documents of the Bornless Ritual as Jeou (Ieoy = 485), an important Gnostic entity, and is honoured in the Bacchanalian cry, "evoi!" (eyoi = 485), and as the Woman in Revelation 17.3 (gynaika = 485) It is called by the ignorant an abomination (bdelygma = 485) and lawless as well as godless (athemiton = 485) because It knows Very God and does not recognize the false gods of petty men nor follow the trite laws of petty humans--It is only subject to the true Law (ennomos = 485). And the initiates of this Order are known by their affinity with It, their One Pointedness and their being themselves as a Fixed Star."

this is such a beautiful quote from G.M.Kelly: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/7069/sword1.html

What do you think about his Sword of Horus site ?


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k4n3
 k4n3
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20/08/2011 12:53 am  
"FraDiavolo" wrote:
this is such a beautiful quote from G.M.Kelly: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/7069/sword1.html

What do you think about his Sword of Horus site ?

i find it very enjoyable and informative. and you?


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 Anonymous
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20/08/2011 6:12 am  
"FraDiavolo" wrote:
"k4n3" wrote:
"The A.路.A.路. is the Fixed Star (Aplanes Aster = 485, st = 6), secure in Its orbit, doing Its Will. (4+8+5 = 17 = Atu XVII, The Star.) As such it is even mentioned in the original documents of the Bornless Ritual as Jeou (Ieoy = 485), an important Gnostic entity, and is honoured in the Bacchanalian cry, "evoi!" (eyoi = 485), and as the Woman in Revelation 17.3 (gynaika = 485) It is called by the ignorant an abomination (bdelygma = 485) and lawless as well as godless (athemiton = 485) because It knows Very God and does not recognize the false gods of petty men nor follow the trite laws of petty humans--It is only subject to the true Law (ennomos = 485). And the initiates of this Order are known by their affinity with It, their One Pointedness and their being themselves as a Fixed Star."

this is such a beautiful quote from G.M.Kelly: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/7069/sword1.html

What do you think about his Sword of Horus site ?

Great quote, especially for this thread. The rest is uninteresting.


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 Anonymous
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20/08/2011 11:37 am  
"k4n3" wrote:
"FraDiavolo" wrote:
this is such a beautiful quote from G.M.Kelly: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/7069/sword1.html

What do you think about his Sword of Horus site ?

i find it very enjoyable and informative. and you?

to me as Not-member and Non-Thelemite it's just a refreshing read while I can't decide if his facts are right for being outside of these groups. Sometimes, when reading this and even if only 5 % of what wrote was correct I'm glad for never having been to a group...it's not as if there weren't some offers...some groups seem to take just about everybody 馃榾 But to paraphrase Groucho:
"I don't care to belong to any order that will have me as a member." 馃榾

You're not by chance Kelly himself, are you? 馃槈

I know I'm off topic, so should I move this post and create another thread?


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k4n3
 k4n3
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20/08/2011 11:51 am  

thank you for the reply, FraDiavolo.

in short, so far i haven't seen any sensible counterarguments presented to prove he is incorrect in his major statements. i would really love to see a logical and equally amusing riposte done by those whom the Sword of Horus struck.

i feel and think that work of such people as G.M.Kelly important and valid and i am aware that at this very moment of time much of what he does is greatly unappreciated. but perhaps such things only history will decide.

and why would you think i'm him?


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 Anonymous
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20/08/2011 12:00 pm  
"k4n3" wrote:
thank you for the reply, FraDiavolo.

in short, so far i haven't seen any sensible counterarguments presented to prove he is incorrect in his major statements. i would really love to see a logical and equally amusing riposte done by those whom the Sword of Horus struck.

i feel and think that work of such people as G.M.Kelly important and valid and i am aware that at this very moment of time much of what he does is greatly unappreciated. but perhaps such things only history will decide.

and why would you think i'm him?

Because you quote him so exact-but that proves nothing in itself. Well, are you or aren't you? and would you admit if you were?


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 Anonymous
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20/08/2011 12:20 pm  

The Sword of Horus is a bunch of garbage....


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 Anonymous
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20/08/2011 12:24 pm  
"N.O.X" wrote:
The Sword of Horus is a bunch of garbage....

Why? This is opinion as opposed to facts. Do you have facts too or just opinion?

Back to topic: I think the AA will never be reunited, because the guru types which dominate each order would have to come to terms with each other and that they'll never do, at least as far as now they haven't done any such thing. There's too much flamewar going on for that, I fear.

Maybe I'm wrong I'm just an outsider but even I can see the fracturing and splintering which can't be made whole again. All they had to do was taking the most vital and popular group uniting with one or more of it's friendly other orders.

There wouldn't even have to be AA brand. It could take the form of an umbrella organization.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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20/08/2011 4:51 pm  
"FraDiavolo" wrote:
... the guru types which dominate each order would have to come to terms with each other and that they'll never do, at least as far as now they haven't done any such thing.

You would think that they could (come to terms). But what terms? The "rule" is simple: "Thus ye have star & star; system & system. let one not know well the other."
Getting together seems to be precluded by such statements.

It's really like the Internet (individual servers linked by lines of electrons).
It's really like the Star-Sponge concept of AC.

"FraDiavolo" wrote:
All they had to do was taking the most vital and popular group uniting with one or more of it's friendly other orders.

Say, this sounds like that fatal folly: Democracy. How can there be a "most popular: when each individual knows nobody but their "upline" link and their "downline" students? If it's "most popular" it's probably not A.'.A.'..
The "other orders" are rarely friendly 馃榾


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 Anonymous
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20/08/2011 5:43 pm  
"FraDiavolo" wrote:
"N.O.X" wrote:
The Sword of Horus is a bunch of garbage....

Why? This is opinion as opposed to facts. Do you have facts too or just opinion?

It's an opinion based on observable fact.

"FraDiavolo" wrote:
Back to topic: I think the AA will never be reunited, because the guru types which dominate each order would have to come to terms with each other and that they'll never do, at least as far as now they haven't done any such thing. There's too much flamewar going on for that, I fear.

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 Anonymous
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20/08/2011 7:36 pm  

Sword of Horus is a bunch nonsense opinions based on observable dogmatic nonsense and other peoples nonsense opinions. It doesn't reflect any kind of ultimate reality, or any kind of realitny except the authors reality, which seems to be a place of grim, dogmatic personal fantasy. I thought Sword of Horus came off like like a bunch of fundamental nonsense and its own content seems like satyr in and of itself.
That was the first thing I had read by that author and I have a real hard time taking anything else he has spewed forth with any seriousness at all.
That's my opinion.


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k4n3
 k4n3
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20/08/2011 8:00 pm  
"FraDiavolo" wrote:
"k4n3" wrote:
thank you for the reply, FraDiavolo.

in short, so far i haven't seen any sensible counterarguments presented to prove he is incorrect in his major statements. i would really love to see a logical and equally amusing riposte done by those whom the Sword of Horus struck.

i feel and think that work of such people as G.M.Kelly important and valid and i am aware that at this very moment of time much of what he does is greatly unappreciated. but perhaps such things only history will decide.

and why would you think i'm him?

Because you quote him so exact-but that proves nothing in itself. Well, are you or aren't you? and would you admit if you were?

as far as i know, Kelly is very busy in RL, and doubt he watches what's going on the different forums. i qoute him exact because thats is a right thing to do, especially when you cite gematria stuff, when one tiny mistake spoils the whole context. i think you know what i mean.
i hope this answers your question.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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20/08/2011 8:11 pm  

There have been a few threads about G.M. Kelley over the years, and to my memory most of them have gotten locked.

At any rate, unless his site is proven relative to this thread, it's really off-topic.


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 Anonymous
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21/08/2011 2:09 am  
"FraDiavolo" wrote:
Back to topic:

Yes, good idea. I think I was involved at the beginning of this thread, although it's hard to remember.

"FraDiavolo" wrote:
I think the AA will never be reunited, because the guru types which dominate each order would have to come to terms with each other and that they'll never do, at least as far as now they haven't done any such thing. There's too much flamewar going on for that, I fear.

No. The "guru types" do not have to "come to terms with each other" in order for a "re-unification of the A:.A:." to take place. They only have to die without leaving a fit enough organization to survive them. This is not a question of reconciliation or any such thing, it is only a question of survival over time. No one is required to participate in a 'grand council.' All they have to do is what they are going to do eventually anyway, die. Sometimes our inability to take an occasional glimpse at the 'big picture' just amazes me.


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 Anonymous
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21/08/2011 1:57 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
Sometimes our inability to take an occasional glimpse at the 'big picture' just amazes me.

Do I read some bitterness in your post? Exactly my thoughts!

The AA claims to be the reservoir body for the progress of mankind. There would be immense pros for all of humankind who are searching for a way to express themselves spiritually with a big approachable organization. Not the "real order" maybe but a sort of "anteroom society" which can be contacted by people still reluctant to join because of the many AA groups. Kind of like the "sorting hat" in Hogwarts 馃榾

So what is the point in a unified Western spiritual movement? It could be a great help for all people on their step to becoming the star they are within to be aware of an organization they can rely on. The web makes this easier.

But I, too, think some leaders are not willing to sacrifice their positions in their respective splinter groups. They may even quote one or two lines from Liber AL to us, like the Bible people, you know: always ready to throw Paul or Matthew at you to make their point instead of coming right out and telling that they don't want to, because they mistrust other leaders.

That's sad, because as we all know AC's legacy would have very much to offer to all (and the "Law is for all") in the departments of beauty, spirituality, philosophy, insight into the nature of humanity and many many more. Obviously we have to wait for one great big Thelema Organization 馃檪


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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21/08/2011 2:23 pm  
"FraDiavolo" wrote:
"Camlion" wrote:
Obviously we have to wait for one great big Thelema Organization 馃檪

"One great big Thelema ORGANIZATION is contrary to the basic concept of Thelems, which is the Individual.


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 Anonymous
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21/08/2011 2:49 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
"FraDiavolo" wrote:
"Camlion" wrote:
Obviously we have to wait for one great big Thelema Organization 馃檪

"One great big Thelema ORGANIZATION is contrary to the basic concept of Thelems, which is the Individual.

No it is not. An organization is just a group of individuals with special objects they try to achieve together. Also I don't see the difference between a large and a small group - a group's a group. If you feel individualism is not supported by groups, then there should be none at all.

Why, we have the group of humankind which may or may not support the individual. In reality, there are no groups or individuals, just different states of mind. A group is defined by everyone him or herself.

A plant for example is a single organism which may grow into a large tree or something by itself, but if there are people who care for the plant and see to its needs then it may grow much quicker.

With more gardeners for a field of plants the possibility there is one of them who understands best what the plant needs is higher then with only one or two near the plants-and the gardeners could make pile their knowledge and make sure by discussion that they know the right way for each plant and are less likely to do mistakes which could be hazardous to the plant, so to speak.

If the gardener really cares more for "his" plants and less for himself or if this field is his and his alone (which is a folly in itself) then that shouldn't be a problem. If there are other gardeners or gurus who share the same belief.

I know this is just positive thinking, but what else is there? 馃檪 Also, I do noit claim to really understand anything about the way the mind of a Saint functions, so I can't say if I'm right or not.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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21/08/2011 5:17 pm  
"FraDiavolo" wrote:
No it is not. An organization is just a group of individuals with special objects they try to achieve together.

A member of the A.'.A.'. shall know NO OTHER MEMBER as such, except for the person (link) who introduced him (her), and any INDIVIDUAL students he/she may take in tow. It is called a "chain" system, or a "ladder" - but it's not a Group. And therein lies the ticket to sanity.

"FraDiavolo" wrote:
Also I don't see the difference between a large and a small group - a group's a group. If you feel individualism is not supported by groups, then there should be none at all.

Now you're getting the idea.

"FraDiavolo" wrote:
I know this is just positive thinking, but what else is there? 馃檪

Well, there is negative thinking, but what really counts is the ability to STOP thinking ... and talking/writing constantly

"FraDiavolo" wrote:
... so I can't say if I'm right or not.

Weren't you recently advised by lashtal to consider/review your posts before posting? In this post, you are running off at the mouth (keyboard) without even knowing (or saying) you are "right." This is the stuff of our pet dog, Choronzon.


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 Anonymous
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21/08/2011 9:34 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
This is the stuff of our pet dog, Choronzon.

Setting Boundaries
AN ALLEGORY

In the days of old when we would have a holiday get-together, the dinner table was always central to the event and to the common socializing thereafter. Given the precious time allotted for the gathering, with participants traveling from near and afar, certain rules were naturally applied out of necessity and basic commonsense. The adults sat in the dinning room, the children also had a place, a table in the kitchen. As fresh bottles of wine were opened in the dinning room, the kitchen would slowly become a battleground until the children were finally sent to the playroom, to play.

The adults would segregate themselves by natural law and if their own free will. The ladies would take over the kitchen to 鈥渃lean up鈥 but their wine glasses were not washed at that time, and were even replenished. A happy vibrating chatter would then become audible from the kitchen. The gentlemen wound gravitate to the living room with their tumbler glasses of scotch, laughter and a general tone of conversational enjoyment would ensue. These days those rules have been laxed, those barbaric rules had to be abolished, contentment and any semblance of intelligent interaction had to end! In this way, liberal mayhem and free speech within the muddled fusion of all participants could render the event a dreaded chaotic chore, rather than the pleasurable gathering of its initial intent.


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 Anonymous
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22/08/2011 7:01 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
"Camlion" wrote:
Obviously we have to wait for one great big Thelema Organization 馃檪

"One great big Thelema ORGANIZATION is contrary to the basic concept of Thelems, which is the Individual.

The quote above has been inaccurately attributed to me. These are words of FraDiavolo, and the meaning is contrary to my own.

That aside, I agree that the basic concept of Thelema concerns the individual, as Shiva stated, although this also has nothing to do with my initial post above concerning the A.'.A.'.'s survival as a temporal organization.


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