The Stele in the Mu...
 
Notifications
Clear all

The Stele in the Museum in Cairo

Page 1 / 2

 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
Topic starter  

Greetings,

I'm wondering what people think about the Stele of Revealing being in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo? Should it be in Cairo, would you like it to be somewhere else, do you think it is an authentic object (not a copy), do you see Cairo as a pilgrimage site because the Stele is there, would you go and see it if it was on tour in another country, have you ever spoken to a museum curator about getting it on tour, is the Stele important to you, should it be seen as more/less important than it is within Thelema...?

Those are the sort of questions I'm interested in.

Thanx,
93

Astaroth.

Necropolis Now Blog
http://necropolisnow.blogspot.com/


Quote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2964
 
"Astaroth" wrote:
Greetings,

I'm wondering what people think about the Stele of Revealing being in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo?

That has been its home for quite some time now. They take good care of it for us. Why bother with it?

"Astaroth" wrote:
Should it be in Cairo, would you like it to be somewhere else,

Somewhere else, with somewho else? It's best held by a neutral party, in my opinion.

"Astaroth" wrote:
do you think it is an authentic object (not a copy),

Sure, why not.

"Astaroth" wrote:
do you see Cairo as a pilgrimage site because the Stele is there,

I personally don't, not in with the general muslim sense, anyway. I may go see it one day, and I may not. I don't feel like I "have to go".

I know many who have made a sort of pilgrimage there, and have enjoyed it thoroughly, so maybe I'm missing out. Who knows.

"Astaroth" wrote:
would you go and see it if it was on tour in another country,

If I happened to be around the local area, sure.

"Astaroth" wrote:
have you ever spoken to a museum curator about getting it on tour,

Like a rockstar? Do you think it likes groupies?

"Astaroth" wrote:
is the Stele important to you,

I think it is important to Thelema. Each individual's mileage may vary.

"Astaroth" wrote:
should it be seen as more/less important than it is within Thelema...?

It means different things to different people. Do you mean, should it become a sort of religious icon? Who knows.


ReplyQuote
lashtal
(@lashtal)
Owner and Editor Admin
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 5330
 
"Astaroth" wrote:
I'm wondering what people think about the Stele of Revealing being in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo?

The most recent update we've had is that it has apparently been taken off display and put into a crate, waiting for transfer to the new Giza Egyptian Museum. I'd prefer it to be on display but this is only a moment in time.

"Astaroth" wrote:
Should it be in Cairo, would you like it to be somewhere else,

Actually, I'd rather it went 'home' to the splendid Luxor Museum, there being no ancient Egyptian connection between the stele and Cairo.

"Astaroth" wrote:
Do you think it is an authentic object (not a copy)?

Probably, but the jury is still out.

"Astaroth" wrote:
Do you see Cairo as a pilgrimage site because the Stele is there?

No. Been there many times but not on a 'pilgrimage'.

"Astaroth" wrote:
Would you go and see it if it was on tour in another country?

Probably.

"Astaroth" wrote:
Have you ever spoken to a museum curator about getting it on tour?

No, but I have spoken with a curator in the Egyptian Museum about the occasions when it has been removed from display for certain 'private viewings.'

"Astaroth" wrote:
Is the Stele important to you?

Yes, for a number of reasons, not all strictly Thelemic.

"Astaroth" wrote:
Should it be seen as more/less important than it is within Thelema...?

No, it's doing okay.

Care to describe what you're planning?

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


ReplyQuote
Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4119
 
"Astaroth" wrote:
Greetings,

I'm wondering what people think about the Stele of Revealing being in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo? Should it be in Cairo, would you like it to be somewhere else, do you think it is an authentic object (not a copy), do you see Cairo as a pilgrimage site because the Stele is there, would you go and see it if it was on tour in another country, have you ever spoken to a museum curator about getting it on tour, is the Stele important to you, should it be seen as more/less important than it is within Thelema...?

Those are the sort of questions I'm interested in.

Thanx,
93

Astaroth.

Necropolis Now Blog
http://necropolisnow.blogspot.com/

I feel the same way as the other respondents to this thread, which is that I'm happy for it to remain in Egypt. Why on earth would the Egyptian museum authorities be interested in sending it out on tour? It's not as if there is a great deal of interest in it here in the West, other than amongst Thelemites who are few in number. I'll go and see it one day, but I won't be making a pilgrimage.

Best wishes,

Michael.


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5703
 
"Astaroth" wrote:
I'm wondering what people think about the Stele of Revealing being in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo?

Why? What does it matter about what other people think?

IT IS IN CAIRO). Upon the grave of my dead mother and before all the Saints in Avalon, I, personally - I think - (I "believe") it is in Cairo. This affirmative bias is based on hearsay and upon the stated testimony of other reliable sources [who are identified below {with real identities - a new concept on my part, but only where they, themselves, have already openly used these names} plus my own personal possession (for a short while in 1967, or so) of what is represented as Crowley's painted-on-wood COPY of the original - the one seen in A.C.'s home in Hastings or Bell and described by Kenneth Grant.

In brief email or PM, I have spoken with lashtal on matters of the original stele, he being an expert witness who has stood before Exhibit "A" (svb figvra 666) where it is [... has recently been] under (spiritual and Establishment] injunction to be enclosed in "locked glass." This, as anyone can see, is "proof to the world." In open forum, he described the "quality" of the stele in Cairo, I believe he used three, superlative words, indicating that it had "astral whomp!"

In lengthier emails, Jerry Cornelius and I probed the depths of the Crowley-copied stele and the copy of that copy obtained by Grady McMurtry from Solar Lodge.

So, everything I say is true, but only partially valid through direct experience, and I have no direct experience with the original stele.

Did you know that I and your Namesake have met before? If your have forgotten, let me refresh your memory:

"One sunny weekday afternoon, a small group banished the shells unto their habitations and I invoked our favored deity for magickal operations, Wisdom-crowned Tahuti ...I then proceeded to evoke the spirit ASTAROT. With the talisman in the center of the triangle, and the spirit called forth and mandated by the power of my magickal wand, his face actually materialized within the swirling smoke issuing from the incense that burned at the three corners of the triangle of evocation.
Extending the wand out of the circle and into the triangle, I called upon ASTAROT to set his hand upon the instrument in token of obedience to come when called and to exercise the power of the talisman. This is when the jolt of electricity hit me. I then gave ASTAROT license to depart in peace unto his abode, causing no disturbance within the environment, and the collection of talismans was considered to be complete. I have handled and perused this book many times, and I have used its talismans on several occasions. We never used the "negative" talismans, except in the singular instance when I was instructed, at the Pig Farm, to put down the ravaging members of the Inquisition who were pursuing us.
"
-Inside Solar Lodge - Outside the Law (c)2007 ASI.

Should it be in Cairo? Why Not?

Would you like it to be somewhere else? Yes!

Do you think it is an authentic object? Yes! - according to my own intuition, my relentless efforts to determine the actual characteristics of the "codex" stele of Ankh- ... I see him next to Lam, in the Gallery of Highly-Regardied (er, "Regarded" not Regardied - although he is welcome to join as an associate member).

Do you see Cairo as a pilgrimage site because the Stele is there? Only for a few Thelemites.

Would you go and see it if it was on tour in another country? Maybe - which Country?

Have you ever spoken to a museum curator about getting it on tour? No! - Have you?

Is the Stele important to you? It is of "interest" at times, within it's own Chronology of Compartments

Should it be seen as more/less important than it is within Thelema? Let there be no difference ...It is what it is to each individual ... Nothing shall be lifted up or cast down.

Those are the sort of questions I'm interested in. Ten questions. Ten really "I wish" - "I think" - "I hope" type of questions.
Why?


ReplyQuote
amadan-De
(@amadan-de)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 686
 

Writing as an archaeologist (though not Egyptologist) I'd want to see some pretty damn robust and detailed claim before even beginning to think about removing the stele from the care of the Egyptian Museum service.*

The fact that an object is 'significant' to any individual or groups religious, philosophical or spiritual practice is not a valid basis for a claim of this nature. The Vatican has no special claim on any post-Christ biblical archaeological finds for example. They might reserve the right to interpret finds in line with their cosmology but then no one is telling Thelemites that they can't 'believe' what they Will about the stele.

*Even if Egypt descended into chaos and museums were threatened there are a host of other bodies I'd rather had care of it and its related artefacts than any existing Thelemite organisation (who would likely only be concerned with this single item divorced from its contextual associations).


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2964
 

I wouldn't want Thelema to turn into a certain "other" group that seems to worship a huge black meteorite, that's for sure.


ReplyQuote
amadan-De
(@amadan-de)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 686
 
"Azidonis" wrote:
I wouldn't want Thelema to turn into a certain "other" group that seems to worship a huge black meteorite, that's for sure.

Hmmm.
Way to piss-off the current curators of the so-called "Stele of Revealing" there Az.
🙄
(Don't some Thelemites act in a similar fashion towards a certain wee hoose by Loch Ness or is that no longer the fashion?)


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
Topic starter  

OK, why I'm asking about the stele here is that I am wondering whether Thelemites in any way see this object as "theirs" the way some Druids and Pagans in Britain are currently getting het up about objects in museum collections that they believe "belong" to their religion and are consequently petitioning curators to get special viewings where they can perform rituals in the vicinity of such objects - I'm thinking in particular of the Old Babylonian plaque possibly depicting Ereshkigal, and dubbed 'The Queen of the Night'. I know some Thelemites go to Egypt and make a special trip to the museum to see the stele (of course) and I'm wondering whether this is common, and how people (Thelemites) feel about this. And as for the stele going on tour "like a rock star", it is perfectly normal for a museum to obtain objects from another museum on loan for an exhibtion. Objects go "on tour' constantly.

~Astaroth.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
Topic starter  

And another thing, it is not _I_ who am suggesting that the Stele be "removed" from the Egyptian Museum, I have heard the idea on this website, in this Forum, in regards to Verses 10 and 11 from Chapter 3 of Liber AL. So I gather that _some people_ on this site think this way.

10. Get the stele of revealing itself; set it in thy secret temple -- and that temple is already aright disposed -- & it shall be your Kiblah for ever. It shall not fade, but miraculous colour shall come back to it day after day. Close it in locked glass for a proof to the world.

11. This shall be your only proof. I forbid argument. Conquer! That is enough. I will make easy to you the abstruction from the ill-ordered house in the Victorious City. Thou shalt thyself convey it with worship, o prophet, though thou likest it not. Thou shalt have danger & trouble. Ra-Hoor-Khu is with thee. Worship me with fire & blood; worship me with swords & with spears. Let the woman be girt with a sword before me: let blood flow to my name. Trample down the Heathen; be upon them, o warrior, I will give you of their flesh to eat!

I am wondering who subscribes to this idea and whether it is prevelent or rare.

~Astaroth.


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5703
 
"Astaroth" wrote:
I am wondering who subscribes to this idea and whether it is prevelent or rare.

The stele will be abstructed under Noctifer's burka - that's all we have worked out so far. That's 11 questions you now have posted - all at once (more or less). Take 5 dharanas and call me in the morning (at the dawn of the next Equinox).


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2964
 
"amadan-De" wrote:
(Don't some Thelemites act in a similar fashion towards a certain wee hoose by Loch Ness or is that no longer the fashion?)

It's not necessary. Tell me how many people spend years of their lives "worshiping the house of the prophet", when in fact, their own house is "ill-ordered".

I think that sites like Mecca, Boleskine, the Vatican and others are merely visual representations of the Inner Temple. They serve as focus aids and tourist attractions.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

As an artist who spends a considerable amount of time creating replica Stele of Revealing for the Company of Heaven, I did indeed make the 'pilgrimage' to Cairo. It seemed to me essential to have actually seen the object before attempting to reproduce it.

It is, without doubt, a remarkable thing. Until recently, it was on display in a cabinet that very probably dates from the period that Crowley saw it in, and was lit only by a skylight. Over a period of two days, I arranged my visits to view the Stele at different times of the day. The colours change markedly depending on the amount of sunlight, almost entirely due to the complex 'patina' of aged varnishes overlaying the pigments.

Admittedly, I had taken some colour 'sketches' based on photographs and made very careful notes to adjust the final painting on my return to London. However, my 'activities' caused enough interest among the armed guards to warrant a curator being dispatched to enquire as to exactly what I was up to. A few pleasantries and compliments later, I was left alone, everyone satisfied that there was no problem.

It was the middle of August -certainly not the time you're supposed to visit Cairo. But, if you can put up with the heat, you've got the place to yourself. After Stele-gazing, I was able to wander through to the Tutankhamun exhibits in the next room and spend about 20 minutes simply looking into the eyes of the famous golden mask without interruption. I tell you - its not famous for nothing.

It was a little bit of nostalgia. The last time I had seen it was in London, what now seems like 110 years ago. As a boy I had excitedly queued for hours with my father to see the 'treasures'. The mask suddenly seemed much smaller than I remembered, but then I'd grown. Sadly, my father had died the year before and had not been able to re-visit Egypt (as he hoped to) and where he had been stationed during his national service - his only experience of being outside the UK.

During my stay, I arranged a visit to the Great Pyramid. Again, it was incredibly hot and out-of-season. Struggling up the great gallery we were confronted by a middle-aged Japanese lady who encouraged us to 'keep going' in an Osaka accent. Little did she know that my tall, thin, Irish-descent partner had lived in Osaka for 14 years. The look on her face when he replied in an Osaka dialect was worth the trip alone - she couldn't have been more freaked out than had Boris Karloff appeared in mummy wrappings. I took the opportunity of proposing to my partner on bended knee in the King's Chamber. Fortunately, he accepted.

My point is; 'pilgrimages' are very personal things - however 'ill ordered'.

As to the Stele, well this 'juror' is convinced that it is still the original and not a copy.

Is it important? Well, the relevant verses have been quoted above. If you believe that the Liber AL vel Legis is, as it claims to be, a new message to humanity then the Stele of Revealing is what the crucifix is to Christianity - an object that represents an historical event that is central to 'revelation' of the new Aeon.

Gary Dickinson


ReplyQuote
Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4119
 

An interesting post, Gary.

Re the Stele, I feel similar to Gary - that it was the fulcrum for the Cairo Working. I accept the praeter-human provenance of The Book of the Law, and thus the Stele has an especial significance. Despite that, when I do eventually go to Cairo to see it "in the flesh", it won't be a pilgrimage since I just don't have that sort of reverence for icons.

The idea that the Stele in the museum might not be genuine is presumably predicated upon the possibility that Crowley, in line with instructions to "abstruct" the Stele, commissioned a replica and then swapped it for the real thing when no-one was looking. In the early months of 1948 Gerald Yorke packaged and posted to Germer the Stele which Crowley had had in his possession, and Yorke was in no doubt that it was a replica. He described in a letter to C.S. Jones how from time to time Crowley had made plans to revisit Cairo in order to fulfill these instructions, but the plans always fell through for one reason or another.

Best wishes,

Michael.


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2964
 
"fancourt" wrote:
My point is; 'pilgrimages' are very personal things - however 'ill ordered'.

Very interesting story, Gary, thanks for sharing.

Nothing sounds ill-ordered about your story.

I'm sure you know what I meant in my post, about people looking to external things for their failures in the inner. Another example would be the "Sunday Christian", who apparently is only a real Christian on Sundays for those 3 hours or so he walks into a certain building.

If I ever get to visit the Stele, it will be with a sense of reverence and awe, as you have described here, no less. But, I recognize that while it is indeed a "religious icon" of Thelema, it is also just another thing. Any significance it has is significance we place upon it, to one degree or another. I'm all for loving the Stele as an aspect of Nuit. I'm not all for thinking some piece of rock, or wood, or anything else, holds the key to enlightenment, and thereby worshiping said object.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

Azidonis,

Thank you ( and indeed to Michael - who also 'get's it')). You're absolutely right here, the Stele is just another thing - but a significant one. As I've tried to describe, my own 'pilgrimage' was actuallly several events/experiences surrounding a specific intention and these were memorable. I wouldn't change any of it for the world - in fact my life would have benn much the poorer if I hadn't. As they say, 'you had to be there'. On the strength of this, even though it's easy to sneer, I'd encourage anyone to go on 'pilgrimage'.


ReplyQuote
amadan-De
(@amadan-de)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 686
 
"Azidonis" wrote:
"amadan-De" wrote:
(Don't some Thelemites act in a similar fashion towards a certain wee hoose by Loch Ness or is that no longer the fashion?)

It's not necessary. Tell me how many people spend years of their lives "worshiping the house of the prophet", when in fact, their own house is "ill-ordered".
I think that sites like Mecca, Boleskine, the Vatican and others are merely visual representations of the Inner Temple. They serve as focus aids and tourist attractions.

I agree entirely. (My quoted comment was hardly serious - unless read by someone who devoutly believes in the 'fact' of the universal need for external focus).

Great post and great stories fancourt/Gary.

I do not profess to be a Thelemite and because of this and the nature of my work, and my relationship with it, I have a slightly different approach to the Stele to many here. As (I hope and intend) an engaged and respectful archaeologist I consider all artefacts of value and individually imbued with specialness - perhaps best illustrated as an animist application of "every man and every woman is a star" where everything is an unique 'star' and accorded respect accordingly. In these terms the (undoubtedly significant on many levels) use of the Stele as a form of 'magic(k)al fulcrum' by which AC leveraged his Revelation is only a recent part of the much longer biography of the object itself. To me the Stele was as wonderful a 'thing' in 1899 AD or 600 BC as it was after 1904 AD.

To try and give a concrete example of my approach - Sitting on my desk in front of me is a roughly palm-sized piece of reddish-brown, slightly sparkly rock that someone has shaped into what we call a 'hand axe'. Because I have attempted stone-tool making myself, and have worked with or watched some incredibly skilled modern 'knappers' I am able to look at this object and see the sequence of removals of material that the maker made in order to achieve the final desired form. In this way, if only vaguely, I am able to directly connect with the intentional manipulation of the material by the consciousness of the maker. This beautiful and functional object is potentially 500,000 years old, whoever the maker was he or she was not an anatomically modern human...and yet somehow I can make a connection. Maybe not praeter-human but certainly 'other' (I would argue against the pejoratively loaded 'sub-human', though admittedly this is in part due to my position of respect towards the maker). I'm sure fancourt would have similar potential for connection when looking at the Stele and seeing the traces of brush-strokes etc. My position is that everyone could engage in this way with anything (personal knowledge of production techniques help deepen the connection but are not necessary) if they only took the time to really look/feel/engage.

So, yeah the Stele is 'important' to the history of Thelema but it's value lies far beyond that single incident.


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2964
 
"amadan-De" wrote:
My position is that everyone could engage in this way with anything (personal knowledge of production techniques help deepen the connection but are not necessary) if they only took the time to really look/feel/engage.

Agreed.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

I'd support Azidonis in saying 'agreed'. It might only be me but... in attempting to reproduce the brush-strokes of the original painter of the Stele, I noticed that it was possibly made by a left-hander like me. It is in those moments that you're brought incredibly close to another person who lived so long ago.

I'd quote our own 'host' here, who waxed very lyrically at the recent Symposium in London on the Stele; it is, Crowley aside, a trully remarkable piece of ancient Egyptian art - little wonder that Brugsch Bey didn't sell it off over dinner back in 1904!

Gary


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 
"lashtal" wrote:
"Astaroth" wrote:
Do you think it is an authentic object (not a copy)?

Probably, but the jury is still out.

This is new to me. Is there some reason to believe the stele in Egypt is not authentic?


ReplyQuote
Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4119
 
"gmugmble" wrote:
This is new to me. Is there some reason to believe the stele in Egypt is not authentic?

None whatever so far as I'm aware.

Best wishes,

Michael.


ReplyQuote
William Thirteen
(@williamthirteen)
Member
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 1091
 

thanks for sharing the account of your trip to Egypt & time with the Stele, Gary. Having abstructed one of your beautiful reproductions shortly after our host's lyrical waxing I can attest that your time there has enriched us all...


ReplyQuote
lashtal
(@lashtal)
Owner and Editor Admin
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 5330
 
"gmugmble" wrote:
This is new to me. Is there some reason to believe the stele in Egypt is not authentic?
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
None whatever so far as I'm aware.

The stele in the Museum is, as I posted above, 'probably' authentic. To suggest there's no evidence at all to the contrary, though, is an over-simplification.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


ReplyQuote
Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4119
 
"lashtal" wrote:
The stele in the Museum is, as I posted above, 'probably' authentic. To suggest there's no evidence at all to the contrary, though, is an over-simplification.

I did use the phrase "so far as I am aware". I'd be very interested to hear of the evidence to the contrary, a discussion of which would be welcome in this thread.

Best,

Michael.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
Topic starter  

Thanks for all your replies. OK, so the general concensus - at least amongs the people who have replied here - is that you wouldn't make a *huge* effort to go see the Stele "in the flesh" and while you think it is important, you don't think it is extremely important - like a relic or pilgrimage site - that you'd make a big haj to see.


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2964
 
"Astaroth" wrote:
Thanks for all your replies. OK, so the general concensus - at least amongs the people who have replied here - is that you wouldn't make a *huge* effort to go see the Stele "in the flesh" and while you think it is important, you don't think it is extremely important - like a relic or pilgrimage site - that you'd make a big haj to see.

But that's just the replies here. I know many Thelemites who feel it is absolutely imperative to go see the stele... to each his own.

At any rate, I don't know anyone who has made the effort to go see it, and returned disappointed.


ReplyQuote
William Thirteen
(@williamthirteen)
Member
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 1091
 

at this point, we'll have wait for any 'pilgrimages' until the Stele is fully prepared to receive visitors at the new Giza Museum. Any projected dates for this "unveiling before the Children of men"?


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
Topic starter  

Don't know anything about what the Stele is doing re the new museum... Are we sure it's going there?


ReplyQuote
lashtal
(@lashtal)
Owner and Editor Admin
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 5330
 

No, not sure, but it's been reported as such elsewhere on this site by a member who asked in the Museum. I would be grateful, as I'm sure we all would, if any members going to Cairo could corroborate this information.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


ReplyQuote
michaelclarke18
(@michaelclarke18)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 1264
 

plus my own personal possession (for a short while in 1967, or so) of what is represented as Crowley's painted-on-wood COPY of the original - the one seen in A.C.'s home in Hastings or Bell and described by Kenneth Grant.

How interesting, could you please say how the item came into, and then left, your posession? Where is it now?

I'm half tempted to say that, for me, Crowley's ''copy'' is the original, and the version in Cairo, merely a pre echo of Crowley's......but I won't.


ReplyQuote
Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4119
 
"michaelclarke18" wrote:
I'm half tempted to say that, for me, Crowley's ''copy'' is the original, and the version in Cairo, merely a pre echo of Crowley's......but I won't.

Thank you, Michael, for resisting the half-temptation; I doubt that the wells of gratitude will ever run dry.

The stele copy would presumably have been amongst the collection of papers stolen from Germer's widow. It's unclear how much of this material survived the subsequent fire, and whether the stele was with the papers or elsewhere.

Best wishes,

Michael.


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5703
 
"michaelclarke18" wrote:
How interesting, could you please say how the item came into, and then left, your posession? Where is it now?

I see that you have been a member since 2006, and you have not come across the endless lashtal stories and questions about this matter? I just finished writing a detailed book on all this (forthcoming - don'r ask when). Please allow me to give you the short version.

(1) Certain members of Solar Lodge abstructed the Stele, the Abramelin Talisman book, many diaries and some books from the OTO archives in 1967.

(2) As Gr.'. Sec.'. Gen/'/f Soar Lodge, most of these items were in my possession for about 2 years. What does it say in the book?

(3) "This (Cefalu diary] book ended up being taken into heaven by a fiery chariot, but I do want you to know that some of these original materials, these codices, carry a strong mystical vibration and they could each tell their own magickal tales as well.
Aleister's personal painted-on-wood Stele of Revealing, apparently the one he had in his room in his later years as briefly described by Kenneth Grant, was placed in prominence on the superaltar in the highly-appointed temple of Solar Lodge. It had its own story as well. Two inquisitive initiates examined it for hours with alchemical-enhancement, but they really didn't come up with any clear picture after probing its mysteries." (c)2011 ASI


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

It's the real one, it's got a good hum. I visited it after museum hours once.


ReplyQuote
michaelclarke18
(@michaelclarke18)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 1264
 

Thank you, Michael, for resisting the half-temptation; I doubt that the wells of gratitude will ever run dry.

Too kind, but you really didn't need to go the the trouble.

I see that you have been a member since 2006, and you have not come across the endless lashtal stories and questions about this matter?

I'm not really a Lashtal junkie, I tend to drop in and drop out as I feel appropriate. I do remember seeing a post with regards to the book of Abra Melin talismans but this did not seem to cover the copy of the Stele.

This (Cefalu diary] book ended up being taken into heaven by a fiery chariot, but I do want you to know that some of these original materials, these codices, carry a strong mystical vibration and they could each tell their own magickal tales as well.

''This (Cefalu diary]'' - is that anything above and beyond what has been published and/or anything in the Warburg archives in London?

Also, you use the word 'carry' does that mean that some of the diaries are still in existence?

Many thanks,


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5703
 

"This (Cefalu diary] book ended up being taken into heaven by a fiery chariot, but I do want you to know that some of these original materials, these codices, carry a strong mystical vibration and they could each tell their own magickal tales as well." (c)2011 ASI

"michaelclarke18" wrote:
'This (Cefalu diary]'' - is that anything above and beyond what has been published and/or anything in the Warburg archives in London?

I state in the text that I don't know what was written in the book - even though I read it over many times. I believe Yorke (et al?) caused all of AC's diaries to be copied before he sent the originals on to Germer. I know nothing about any Warburg, but I suppose that's where Yorke's papers are? If yes, then I imagine the words were captured - the magickal essence (the "aura") of the original is what went to heaven).

"michaelclarke18" wrote:
Also, you use the word 'carry' does that mean that some of the diaries are still in existence?

. Solar Lodge abstructed only a small amount of material. I'm sure there are many items still around. OTO would have some of this. The two other thefts of OTO archives surely have their mementoes hanging out somewhere. The ONLY surviving artifact from Solar Lodge is the Abramelin talisman book (that I know of).


ReplyQuote
michaelclarke18
(@michaelclarke18)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 1264
 

The ONLY surviving artifact from Solar Lodge is the Abramelin talisman book (that I know of).

And I assume that the current location is unknown?


ReplyQuote
Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4119
 
"Shiva" wrote:
I state in the text that I don't know what was written in the book - even though I read it over many times. I believe Yorke (et al?) caused all of AC's diaries to be copied before he sent the originals on to Germer. I know nothing about any Warburg, but I suppose that's where Yorke's papers are? If yes, then I imagine the words were captured - the magickal essence (the "aura") of the original is what went to heaven).

Typed copies were made of all the diaries before their despatch to Germer, and are in the Gerald Yorke Collection housed at the Warburg, yes. In addition, over the next few years Yorke acquired several other diaries that came on the market. There are gaps in the span of the diaries housed at the Warburg. Diaries continue to surface, some of them purchased by OTO Inc., others by private collectors. It will be interesting to see what gaps remain when the long-mooted Collected Diaries are published.

Best wishes,

Michael.


ReplyQuote
einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
 
"Shiva" wrote:
The ONLY surviving artifact from Solar Lodge is the Abramelin talisman book (that I know of).

I do wonder what closet or attic that artifact languishes in. It must be lost somewhere in the Midwest USA.

I wonder if it will ever turn up on Antiques Roadshow: 🙂


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5703
 
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
It must be lost somewhere in the Midwest USA.

The stars at night
are big and bright,
deep in the heart of ________.

Fill in your own answer; it starts with a "T."


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

You know what is really a fork in the side is that when i was in the navy we  were in alexandria for a week and I took two days to go visit the museum and the giza pyramids. then when i got out. months later I found out about crowley. I am sure I say the stele but ment nothing to me at the time and doubt if I gave it a second glance.  93's


ReplyQuote
ptoner
(@ptoner)
The plants talk to me....
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2130
 

Have there been any further developments on whether the Stele will be on display soon or already?
Should be visiting Egypt next year and really would like to see it first hand.

As far as I can understand it's off display and waiting for the new Grand Egyptian Museum.
http://www.gem.gov.eg/index/NEWS.htm

Is this true?

Video on the development of the site for those who are interested.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82gvcAfTBtM


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5703
 
"ptoner" wrote:
Should be visiting Egypt next year ...

This will probably be your own version of my Tuat Juarez. I survived ... and we hope that you will as well.

Why do we have this perverse drive to enter into battlegrounds and dangerous venues?


ReplyQuote
ptoner
(@ptoner)
The plants talk to me....
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2130
 

🙂 Shiva, I am living in Northern Ireland after all, which has been a hot bed for violence and religious hatred for many years!
"The Troubles"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles

Egypt would be about my level! 🙂


ReplyQuote
Philip Harris-Smith
(@philip-harris-smith)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 62
 

The essential question here seems to be who has the stele and controls access.  Bearing in mind that for a time it has not been available to view I would suggest that this is a very important issue.

The historical provenance of original documents and artifacts is of great importance.  For example the fact the the original hebrew Holy Torah may have been lost is a point of major contention between muslims and jews. Some Muslims claim they have a copy of the original version which the Holy Koran supercedes, Jewish theologians disagree.

My point here is that original sources material can become a major issue for dispute.  We Thelemites are clearly such a weak minority that we cannot gain any real control over the original artifacts which would enable us to verify provenance as time goes by.  It seems to me that all we can do is pretend it is no beg deal (surely it is really) and hope for the best.

If only we could find a way for the stele to go on tour like the the cyrus cylinder, at least then it would be considered worthy of especial care and not just shoved in a cupboard.


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2964
 
"Philip Harris-Smith" wrote:
The essential question here seems to be who has the stele and controls access.  Bearing in mind that for a time it has not been available to view I would suggest that this is a very important issue.

The historical provenance of original documents and artifacts is of great importance.  For example the fact the the original hebrew Holy Torah may have been lost is a point of major contention between muslims and jews. Some Muslims claim they have a copy of the original version which the Holy Koran supercedes, Jewish theologians disagree.

My point here is that original sources material can become a major issue for dispute.  We Thelemites are clearly such a weak minority that we cannot gain any real control over the original artifacts which would enable us to verify provenance as time goes by.  It seems to me that all we can do is pretend it is no beg deal (surely it is really) and hope for the best.

If only we could find a way for the stele to go on tour like the the cyrus cylinder, at least then it would be considered worthy of especial care and not just shoved in a cupboard.

Surely it can be purchased, albeit for a hefty price.


ReplyQuote
belmurru
(@belmurru)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1026
 
"Azidonis" wrote:
Surely it can be purchased, albeit for a hefty price.

Nope. See Chapter I, Articles 6-8 particularly of the Law on the Protection of Antiquities, which has been in force in since 1983 (and various incarnations before that since 1953).

http://www.ifar.org/upload/PDFLink4897669e0f11dWMK%20-%20Egypt%20-%20Law%20No.%20117.pdf

"All antiquities are considered to be public property - except for charitable endowments. It is impermissible to own, possess, or dispose of antiquities... As of the date of coming into force of this law, it is forbidden to trade in antiquities." Etc.

If by "hefty price" you intend to imply hiring someone to steal it, then of course, but you will not be guaranteed to receive your purchase by this means, and you will have no recourse in case of non-receipt. You may also be subject to legal action by the Egyptian government. In other words, there is no legal way, at no matter what price, to buy the Stele. I don't believe any Egypt-watchers think that this particular law is in any danger of changing, no matter what kind of government might finally come about in Egypt.


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2964
 
"belmurru" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
Surely it can be purchased, albeit for a hefty price.

Nope. See Chapter I, Articles 6-8 particularly of the Law on the Protection of Antiquities, which has been in force in since 1983 (and various incarnations before that since 1953).

http://www.ifar.org/upload/PDFLink4897669e0f11dWMK%20-%20Egypt%20-%20Law%20No.%20117.pdf

"All antiquities are considered to be public property - except for charitable endowments. It is impermissible to own, possess, or dispose of antiquities... As of the date of coming into force of this law, it is forbidden to trade in antiquities." Etc.

If by "hefty price" you intend to imply hiring someone to steal it, then of course, but you will not be guaranteed to receive your purchase by this means, and you will have no recourse in case of non-receipt. You may also be subject to legal action by the Egyptian government. In other words, there is no legal way, at no matter what price, to buy the Stele. I don't believe any Egypt-watchers think that this particular law is in any danger of changing, no matter what kind of government might finally come about in Egypt.

Interesting how the term "public property" and the phrase "impermissible to own" is language used to indicate "owned by the government".


ReplyQuote
belmurru
(@belmurru)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1026
 
"Azidonis" wrote:
Interesting how the term "public property" and the phrase "impermissible to own" is language used to indicate "owned by the government".

Why is that "interesting" about it? How else can something be publically owned, unless by a body representing the public? Do you mean to imply that every single individual member of the public that wants to claim ownership of something in the name of everybody else in the country, has to pay singly and individually, in person, for that thing? So that, for instance, public parkland has to be paid for by you personally, before you can walk on it?

Or is taxation enough to qualify as "ownership" of public stuff? For most of us, the government owning things in our names, bought and maintained with our tax money, is good enough to qualify as "public ownership". I don't have to pay a particular discrete fee every time I want to use it, view it, or whatever.

Clearly, also, the "impermissible to own" language refers to individuals, not to the concept of ownership itself. The state owns it, and the state is composed of all citizens. No single citizen owns it.


ReplyQuote
belmurru
(@belmurru)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1026
 
"Azidonis" wrote:
Interesting how the term "public property" and the phrase "impermissible to own" is language used to indicate "owned by the government".

I'm still not sure what you meant by "hefty price". Do you mean to imply that you think the Egyptian government, for some billions of dollars for instance, would sell the Stele? I suppose it is possible, but who on Earth would attempt such a thing, when so many other things can be bought for billions of dollars? For instance, you could buy a house next to the museum, learn Arabic, make friends in the museum and the archeological community, and view the Stele to your heart's content, probably any time you wanted, all for much less than trying to purchase it as a private citizen of another country from the Egyptian government.

What price do you think the Egyptian government would sell that particular stele for?


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2964
 

It's not really worth arguing about. The context of the initial remark was in reference to:

"Philip Harris-Smith" wrote:
The essential question here seems to be who has the stele and controls access.  Bearing in mind that for a time it has not been available to view I would suggest that this is a very important issue.

The general idea is that "Thelemites" hold a special value over the stele than anyone else, but they can't do anything about it, like bring it into their possession, because there are so few of them.

It's not like marching 1,000 or 10,000 (depending on the source) troops into Mecca during the 7th century and saying, "Guess what, this chunk of meteorite is ours and there's nothing you can do about it."

And its not like a single established visible active organization representing Thelema, which is considered in some nations a religion, has gone and claimed it as a holy relic with any success either.

As for the other note, if you believe that "public property" implies some kind of joint ownership of everyone in the public, said ownership presided over by an appointed committee of elected peers, and that committee being called the government, that's your prerogative.

The Egyptian government owns that which it is "It is impermissible to own, possess, or dispose of". It is not publicly owned, it is just publicly displayed.

Lately it seems it has not even been displayed, arousing concern from Philip Harris-Smith, and perhaps other "Thelemites".

As for the "hefty price" - everything has a cost; nothing is free.


ReplyQuote
Page 1 / 2
Share: