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The Stele in the Museum in Cairo

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Los
 Los
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"Azidonis" wrote:
The Egyptian government owns that which it is "It is impermissible to own, possess, or dispose of". It is not publicly owned, it is just publicly displayed.

As belmurru was just patiently trying to explain to you, "public ownership" means that no single individual owns it but that a body representative of the people owns it and makes it available for the public to use (in this case -- since it's art/artifact -- to view). The body also takes steps to prevent it from harm (such as enclosing it in glass or putting it away somewhere safe when there is danger around).

I have no idea what you think "public ownership" means, but I'm willing to bet that whatever idea you have is vague, nebulous, and completely impractical.


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Azidonis
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"Los" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
The Egyptian government owns that which it is "It is impermissible to own, possess, or dispose of". It is not publicly owned, it is just publicly displayed.

As belmurru was just patiently trying to explain to you, "public ownership" means that no single individual owns it but that a body representative of the people owns it and makes it available for the public to use (in this case -- since it's art/artifact -- to view). The body also takes steps to prevent it from harm (such as enclosing it in glass or putting it away somewhere safe when there is danger around).

I have no idea what you think "public ownership" means, but I'm willing to bet that whatever idea you have is vague, nebulous, and completely impractical.

So whatever happens to the stele, barring accidents, the public has a say in it, right?


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Los
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"Azidonis" wrote:
So whatever happens to the stele, barring accidents, the public has a say in it, right?

Yes, through a body that represents the public. And that body puts the stele -- along with other works of historical import -- on public display and guards it from damage when there is risk of damage.

Here's a question: what, exactly and specifically, is your definition of "public ownership"? What would the "public ownership" of the stele look like, if not the form it currently takes?


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ptoner
(@ptoner)
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Heres another question for you all, maybe a more important one. Where is it?
Can anyone actually confirm where it is? Never mind the hefty price or public ownership.


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Los
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"ptoner" wrote:
Can anyone actually confirm where it is? Never mind the hefty price or public ownership.

As far as I know, it's in a safe, undisclosed location.

There's a thread on the Temple of Thelema forums about this subject ( http://www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7469 ) in which Jim Eshelman -- who claims to have had a "Temple of Thelema [...] Egyptologist/archeologist on site in Egypt" -- said in 2011 that

We believe we know where it is going, and have every reason to believe it is safe. Partly to support its continued safety, i'm not disclosing any details about the relocation until I get permission.

So it seems that details about its location -- along with the location of other priceless artifacts, of course -- are being kept hidden for the safety of those objects. Makes sense to me.

Six months ago -- in response to you, in fact, Paul -- Eshelman said

The last news I had is that the new location will be completed in a couple of years. (It's under construction, and the intended items are in safe storage, as best we last knew.)

So that's probably still your answer. If it's moving in a few years to a new place that's "under construction," then it probably won't be available for your trip next year. But who knows.


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Azidonis
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"Los" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
So whatever happens to the stele, barring accidents, the public has a say in it, right?

Yes, through a body that represents the public. And that body puts the stele -- along with other works of historical import -- on public display and guards it from damage when there is risk of damage.

Right. And if government officials decided to waltz in and take said stele, put it out back and use it for target practice, do you think the public would get a say in that?

"Los" wrote:
Here's a question: what, exactly and specifically, is your definition of "public ownership"? What would the "public ownership" of the stele look like, if not the form it currently takes?

You are assuming I think it needs to be owned.

Like I said before, it's not worth arguing about. I'm pointing at the use of said semantics that are apparently effective in making people think anyone in physical possession of, or in direct care of, the stele gives a good damn what 'the people' want. For the most part, they probably just follow instructions for proper care, stowage, etc., but thinking that has always and will always be the case is a very broad assumption.


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Los
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"Azidonis" wrote:
Right.

Right.

And if government officials decided to waltz in and take said stele, put it out back and use it for target practice, do you think the public would get a say in that?

The body that represents the public isn't going to let a single individual -- government official or not -- damage the artifact (or, rather, it will do everything in its power to prevent any single individual from doing so). Just as the law doesn't allow a single individual to damage another individual's property, it also doesn't allow a single individual to damage public property. [Edit: It doesn't allow groups to damage public property, either]

You are assuming I think it needs to be owned.

No, I'm not. We were talking about public ownership of an object. You implied that it wasn't *really* publicly owned because it was actually "owned by the government." It was explained to you that the term "public ownership" means that the thing in question is owned by a representative body (and not a single person). Rather than simply say, "Oh, I see. Thanks for correcting me on that point," you continued to imply that you don't think the item is actually "publicly owned." Clearly, you think "public ownership" means something different than the definition explained to you.

So, in that context, I asked you what you think think the term "public ownership" means. I'm not saying that I think you think anything in particular "needs to be" be owned -- I'm genuinely puzzled as to what you possibly mean when you use the term "public ownership," and I have a sneaking suspicion that you're confused on this point as well. I'm not trying to "argue" with you: I'm trying to get you to be clear when you communicate.


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amadan-De
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"ptoner" wrote:
Can anyone actually confirm where it is?

Regardless of the information Los has provided above, which seems completely sensible, if I really wanted to know about the status/possibility of seeing an artefact that is in the care of the Egyptian Ministry of State for Antiquities (formerly Supreme Council for Antiquities) I think I'd consider contacting them directly and asking.  Nothing beats the 'horses mouth'.  The fact that a (really very small) section of humanity chooses to treat this particular stele as a 'holy relic' does not make them necessarily the best source of information about it, eh?

The website for the SCA is here and includes contacts for the Museum in Cairo or the organisation itself.  See what happens.  You might want to start with a general question about the possibility of seeing steles currently in store rather than wigging out about the need to visit a piece of religious import..  😉

Az, I'm not sure what you are trying to get at here.  It is fairly standard practice for items or sites of historic (or prehistoric!) significance to be held in trust for the wider population by the relevant government.  It certainly goes on in the UK.  Pretty sure that the same is true in the US too (who 'owns' the Liberty Bell, the Constitution, etc., etc. ?).  Maybe go to your largest local Museum and ask them who owns the exhibits (excusing private collections/museums natch).  Further to that I think that I have stated before that the idea of Thelemites making off with the stele and enshrining it somewhere for their private worship is a pretty poor one as far as I'm concerned.  No matter what Mr Crowley or any of his current followers may have thought/think this specific item is part of the wider history of Egyptian Art, Religion and Culture and as such should rightfully remain with them.  If Thelemites want to make a claim on anything I'd say that a certain building on Cefalu is where they should really be directing their gaze - if it's not already too late to save the traces of paintings actually made by the hand of your Prophet.  Unfortunately their preservation was severely compromised by the well-intentioned and no doubt devout vandalism of Mr Anger (and where are the items he left with...hmmm??)

Enough, Too Much!


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Los
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"amadan-De" wrote:
Regardless of the information Los has provided above, which seems completely sensible, if I really wanted to know about the status/possibility of seeing an artefact that is in the care of the Egyptian Ministry of State for Antiquities (formerly Supreme Council for Antiquities) I think I'd consider contacting them directly and asking.  Nothing beats the 'horses mouth'.

Well, if someone's going to do this, I would underline the point you make later in the post about contacting them to ask about the location of steles (stellae?) in general and not acting like a kooky cultist who desperately wants to see some object of "magical power" or whatnot.

As much as I often disagree with Eshelman, I think he makes an excellent point in the middle of that thread I linked to:

  In case someone is thinking of contacting officials in Egypt, I discourage it. The government has little or no idea of its importance to us. If that changes, the safety (or, at least, its public availability) could be in peril. I encourage very low profile attention.

I strongly agree. Why would someone have to know its exact location, anyway? Isn't it enough to know that it's safe and will be available for public viewing in the near future?


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amadan-De
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Oh yes.  It's always a good idea to not appear too kooky, especially when dealing with bureaucracy.  There are plenty of plausible reasons for wanting to see an antiquity without going all holy-roller about it.

Strikes me Eshelman is being just a bit paranoid - as well as ignoring the no doubt moderately steady trickle of free-range Thelemites who have asked about the stele ever since AC first drew attention to it.  I'd be very surprised if there were no one at all in the Egyptian Museum who was aware of "its importance to [Thelemites/odd occultists]"*.  They do have access to t'internet and books you know and the Thelemic interest in the piece is not really that well kept a secret.  Suppose I'm saying that Eshelman is failing to give the Egyptians much credit - how very parochial of him.

*(Hell it wouldn't surprise me too much to discover that one or two staff might even consider themselves such too - I've encountered much weirder things in the archaeological community).


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ptoner
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"Los" wrote:

Six months ago -- in response to you, in fact, Paul -- Eshelman said

The last news I had is that the new location will be completed in a couple of years. (It's under construction, and the intended items are in safe storage, as best we last knew.)

So that's probably still your answer. If it's moving in a few years to a new place that's "under construction," then it probably won't be available for your trip next year. But who knows.

I was hoping that it randomly re-appeared but alais, it is not to be.
Thanks Los.

"amadan-De" wrote:
The website for the SCA is here and includes contacts for the Museum in Cairo or the organisation itself.  See what happens.  You might want to start with a general question about the possibility of seeing steles currently in store rather than wigging out about the need to visit a piece of religious import..  😉

Sound advice Amandan-De, will follow it up.
Thank you.


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Azidonis
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"ptoner" wrote:
"amadan-De" wrote:
The website for the SCA is here and includes contacts for the Museum in Cairo or the organisation itself.  See what happens.  You might want to start with a general question about the possibility of seeing steles currently in store rather than wigging out about the need to visit a piece of religious import..  😉

Sound advice amadan-De, will follow it up.
Thank you.

Best ideas yet. 🙂


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amadan-De
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Heh. Nice 'stealth edit' Az 😉


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Azidonis
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"amadan-De" wrote:
Heh. Nice 'stealth edit' Az 😉

Ya lol maybe I should have used Turabian format.


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Los
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"amadan-De" wrote:
Strikes me Eshelman is being just a bit paranoid - as well as ignoring the no doubt moderately steady trickle of free-range Thelemites who have asked about the stele ever since AC first drew attention to it.  I'd be very surprised if there were no one at all in the Egyptian Museum who was aware of "its importance to [Thelemites/odd occultists]"*.  They do have access to t'internet and books you know and the Thelemic interest in the piece is not really that well kept a secret.  Suppose I'm saying that Eshelman is failing to give the Egyptians much credit - how very parochial of him.

These are all fair points -- you're correct in suggesting that the Stele's importance to certain people is probably relatively common knowledge around the museum. But, as I think we were all agreeing, it's also probably not in anyone's interest to draw too much attention to it or to appear like a kook.


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Philip Harris-Smith
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It's clear that this issue is not just of concern to me.

How to aquire or make safe the Stele is important because during the 'Arab spring' a lot of valuable items especialy those made of gold were taken and melted down in the Khan el-Khalili.  Thankfully the Stele is not of precious metal and most Thelemites are at the lower end of the socio-economic hierarchy, so its not worth stealing to be sold, the prospective buyers have shallow pockets.

How to make the Stele of Revealing safe engages my mind greatly at present, I still think that causing it to become important in the same way as the cyrus scroll is a possible solution.


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Azidonis
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"Philip Harris-Smith" wrote:
It's clear that this issue is not just of concern to me.

How to aquire or make safe the Stele is important because during the 'Arab spring' a lot of valuable items especialy those made of gold were taken and melted down in the Khan el-Khalili.  Thankfully the Stele is not of precious metal and most Thelemites are at the lower end of the socio-economic hierarchy, so its not worth stealing to be sold, the prospective buyers have shallow pockets.

How to make the Stele of Revealing safe engages my mind greatly at present, I still think that causing it to become important in the same way as the cyrus scroll is a possible solution.

It seems that looters are not very interested in it, and those who would seek to destroy it otherwise have their aspirations set a bit higher - on the pyramids and the sphinx.


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Markus
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Speaking of the Stele, does anybody know where I can purchase a replica? Does the Israeli OTO still do them?

Markus


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 Anonymous
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Try The Company of Heaven:

http://www.themagicalmandarin.com/page4.htm


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Shiva
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Any attempt to draw any kind of attention to this stele will possibly bring it to the attention of our brothers in the muslim brotherhood. Take, for example, the lesson contained in the legend of The Royal Library ...

The longest version is in the Syrian Christian author Bar-Hebraeus (1226–1286), also known as Abu'l Faraj. In this Historia Compendiosa Dynastiarum he describes a certain "John Grammaticus" (490–570) asking Amr for the "books in the royal library." Amr writes to Omar for instructions, and Omar replies: "If those books are in agreement with the Quran, we have no need of them; and if these are opposed to the Quran, destroy them.

Right now, an obscure, unknown clay tablet, apparently in storage with similar fellows, and not on display, is a relatively safe place for survival.

We've discussed secreting (abstruction) under cover of a burka ...

[/align:1us9fnyf]

See yourself in this situation or shut up.[/align:1us9fnyf]

If anyone gets an invitation into the A.'.A.'. Special Force Burka,  😮 it sounds like a lot of fun.

On the other hand, old Khem is going into the Tuat in a flammable-reed Solar Barque.

The whole "middle-east" is embroiled in Armaggedon. The "middle-east" is that area which is Oriental (eastward) to good-new western civilization, but not so deep in good-old Asian mysticism to be overcome by Fu Manchu. It's a hell-zone that runs from the Balkans and (especially) Afghanistan down through Syria and The Levant, and now Egypt is rumbing again.


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Azidonis
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Shiva
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"Destroy the idols,’ Egyptian jihadist calls for removal of Sphinx, Pyramids."

Oh, Now What Next?


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Philip Harris-Smith
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I am wracking my brains to think of a way to make the Stele safe from religious maniacs.


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Azidonis
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"Philip Harris-Smith" wrote:
I am wracking my brains to think of a way to make the Stele safe from religious maniacs.

Here's just an idea:

Godwin's Cabalistic Encyclopedia gives the following:

Abbadon [Value] 713 or 63
1. Descruction (Job 16:6)
2. The angel of the bottomless pit (Rev. 9:11), called "Apollyn" in Greek (1461, by Greek isopsephos)
3. The Sixth hell, corresponding to Chesed
Islamic equivalent = Jahim, which is reserved for pagans and idolators.

Consider, Chesed - Mercy, Compassion, etc. Therefore this 'angel', would represent the complete lack thereof, a veritable symbol of the dis-ease you are wishing to work against.


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James
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Here's hoping the economic argument wins through in Egypt as the country relies heavily on tourism; to start on a campaign of cultural destruction would be to napalm their golden goose.

China can't move fast enough to try to repair the damage of their 'cultural revolution' 🙂


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William Thirteen
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Just an update regarding the Stele as I visited the museum today. Eventually made it past the armored cars, barbed wire, and many young men with guns but was disappointed to find that the Stele is still not on display. Tried asking some of the museum 'guards' but their lack of English and even greater lack of interest was matched only by my sad lack of Arabic.

Have spoken to some here about GEM, the Grand Egyptian Museum, assumed to be the new home of the Stele. Current scheduling has it opening in 2015 - but it was also scheduled to open in 2012 and 2013 - so I wouldn't call your travel agent just yet.  There may be more news in May after the elections as the new government will be under pressure to create jobs and get Egypt's tourist revenue back in order. However, there is much else on their plate so it may take months before there is movement on the ground.

The mood here is one of tense waiting. Assuming he wins the election, President Sisi will have to show he can jumpstart the economy, while maintaining stability and honoring the aspirations of the electorate for 'Bread, Freedom, Social Justice'.

Meanwhile, while currently unavailable for viewing, we can be confident that the Stele is well guarded…


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lashtal
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Thanks for the update, William! Nice photo, by the way...

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michaelclarke18
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Hmm I'm so glad I saw it when I did.

President Sisi will have to show he can jumpstart the economy

The world is in [an economic] depression, that is going to last many, many years.


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William Thirteen
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Just to be clear - the armored cars & barbed wire were a one day affair. Yesterday was a holiday celebrating the 'Liberation of Sinai' and the govt was concerned that the MB might organize demonstrations at Tahrir Square to show they are still in the game. Their removal from power last year and the subsequent ban on them as a party has driven them back into the wilderness.

Actually, I feel more secure here than in many places in the US - though the lack of tourist revenue has made those working in its informal sector a bit more 'ambitious'. So many friendly fellows on the street with special deals just for me!


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michaelclarke18
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Just to be clear - the armored cars & barbed wire were a one day affair.

Ah, I was actually referring to the fact that it's no longer on display - rather than any issues of Law & order in Egypt...which are considerable.


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William Thirteen
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actually this place is more lawful than most cities in North America. Though there may be pickpockets or such preying on the tourists. Thin pickpockets no doubt, as the tourist numbers are down by fifty percent. I'm not complaining though - i was almost alone in the museum and i was able to walk for hours through the city streets without seeing any tourists at all...except when i caught my glance reflected in a shop window. Man, am i good looking.…


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Horemakhet
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"WilliamThirteen" wrote:
actually this place is more lawful than most cities in North America. Though there may be pickpockets or such preying on the tourists. Thin pickpockets no doubt, as the tourist numbers are down by fifty percent. I'm not complaining though - i was almost alone in the museum and i was able to walk for hours through the city streets without seeing any tourists at all...except when i caught my glance reflected in a shop window. Man, am i good looking.…

John Anthony West, who regularly organises "Magical Egypt Tours" (An intensive 2 week trip), has been confirming what you are saying here, Williamthirteen, on his site-  http://jawest.com/egarchive.htm - in his continued update on the situation in Egypt & what this *actually* means for tourists. Interesting, informative stuff coming out of there from individuals who have braved through the "presstitute scaremongering" (as JAW puts it)...


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William Thirteen
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oh thanks for the link Horemakhet - his tours look good and i am intent on coming back here in the near future!


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lashtal
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Just to reinforce Horemakhet's excellent post: JAW is a fascinating character and his take on Ancient Egypt is especially relevant to members of this site. His guide to the sites there is one of the best - I always carry it with me when in Egypt - and is equally as informative when studied back home: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Travellers-Key-Ancient-Egypt/dp/0835607240/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1398671950&sr=1-3&keywords=john+anthony+west

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michaelclarke18
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Some good points, but I still think there very little point in going there now, essentially,  because the Stele is not on view. But each to their own.

By the way, there is a mass execution in Egypt at the moment of 683 supporters of the former regime:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/10792351/Egypt-sentences-683-Islamists-to-death-in-mass-trial.html

So perhaps, still not the safest time to visit - if the press-titutes are to be believed!


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Shiva
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"michaelclarke18" wrote:
By the way, there is a mass execution in Egypt at the moment of 683 supporters of the former regime...

Well, not really an execution "at the moment." It's merely a verdict of an intended execution, with most of the executionees in absentia. The last time I suggested travel to Egypt was dangerous, the traveler poo-poohed the idea (of his personal danger), and the moderator condescended to belittle my intelligence. And this even though I confessed in the same post to having exposed myself to similar dangers in the past.

So be careful what you say about danger in Egypt. Try Syria or Afghanistan instead - It's safer for your stainless reputation. 😉


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michaelclarke18
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Thanks Shiva; however, I still see little point in visiting without the Stele on show.

Although, when I did visit a few years ago I found the folks of Cairo - especially around the monuments - rather aggressive in their attempts to get you to buy something. I only really felt safe when I'd left the place.
It's easy on a guided tour, but when you 'rough it' the experience is a real eye-opener.


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William Thirteen
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Thanks for the tip Paul - i will pick up West's guide for my next visit. I need to get up to Luxor as well.

yes, the souvenir hawkers can be persistent. I would be as well, if feeding my family depended on convincing a tourist to spend a tiny fraction of his holiday budget on some trinkets.  As i kept in mind, the Cairenes have been dealing with tourists for over 3,000 years - a figure a few orders of magnitude greater than the number of years i've been trying to evade their importunings 😉  That being said, having followed one friendly fellow into a dusty, yet still elegant 19th century courtyard to his 'brother's papyrus workshop' and another gentleman up the Minaret of an medieval mosque to gain a breathtaking view of Saladin's Citadel, the experiences were well worth the small amount of cash with which i ended up parting.  And away from the tourist areas the only random encounters were curious smiles and the occasional assistance with my map as i tried to figure out where the hell i was (eventually i had to give up trying to read the map and just follow the setting sun back to the Nile). The subway is also great for getting around town if there is a stop near your destination and very inexpensive - only $0.15 / €0.10. Maybe we need to organize a LAShTAL meet up in the King's Chamber!

Regarding today's sentencing - it is probable that most of these convictions will be overturned for just the reasons Shiva mentioned.  I have just seen a long interview with an Egyptian jurist who described the multiple appeal options available in this type of case. Let's hope that's the case as there is no evidence against many of these young men except their membership in a political party which was legal at that time.

3. Man has the right to think what he will

oh and just for comparison - the murder rate in the US is four times that of Egypt and the incarceration rate in the US is almost nine times  higher.


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michaelclarke18
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I would be as well, if feeding my family depended on convincing a tourist to spend a tiny fraction of his holiday budget on some trinkets. 

I don't really think that an excuse. If it were me, I think I would find something else to do.

oh and just for comparison - the murder rate in the US is four times that of Egypt and the incarceration rate in the US is almost nine times  higher.

I don't dispute that, some parts of the US are pretty awful. It's effectively a broke third world country too, lawless in a lot of places.


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Anonymous
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"Astaroth" wrote:
Greetings,

I'm wondering what people think about the Stele of Revealing being in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo? Should it be in Cairo, would you like it to be somewhere else, do you think it is an authentic object (not a copy), do you see Cairo as a pilgrimage site because the Stele is there, would you go and see it if it was on tour in another country, have you ever spoken to a museum curator about getting it on tour, is the Stele important to you, should it be seen as more/less important than it is within Thelema...?

Those are the sort of questions I'm interested in.

Thanx,
93

Astaroth.

Necropolis Now Blog
http://necropolisnow.blogspot.com/

93

It's something I've never explored however it is given significance in Liber Legis


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