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The ten fetters of Buddhism and Thelema

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93,

As you may know Crowley cited the Buddhist concept of Nirvana as a goal every initiate is bound for. 

In Buddhism, a mental fetter, chain or bond  shackles a sentient being to saṃsāra, the cycle of lives with dukkha. By cutting through all fetters, one attains  nirvāṇa).
Sutta Pitaka's list of ten "fetters of becoming" are as follows

1  Aruparga lust for immaterial existence, lust for rebirth in a formless realm
2  Vikkikika    Doubt/ uncertainty about buddha's teachings
3  Rupraga  Desire for bodily immortality.
4 : Silabata Paramesa    Attachment to rites and rituals
5 : vyāpādo or byāpādo  Anger/ill will
6 : Udakkha  Anxiety/stress of trying to hold onto things (restlessness in a universe of change)
7  Mano  Conceit translated as "pride", "arrogance. . It is defined as an inflated mind that makes whatever is suitable, such as wealth or learning, to be the foundation of pride. It creates the basis for disrespecting others and for the occurrence of suffering.
8 Sakkya-ditti  Erroneous view of the existence of a self
9  Kama  sensual desire (kāmacchando)
10 Avigga  Ignorance

With that said are you able to reconcile these traditional ten restrictions to Nirvana, with Thelema,  particularly as we have the following passage in Liber Legis ? " 53 With my claws I tear out the flesh of the Indian and the Buddhist, Mongol and Din".

Also, the Buddha dismissed the  Atman concept as being  obsolete and there is no aspiration to an Atman in Buddhism, instead the aim, for all  is no-mind /Nirvana.  OTOH  Crowley used the idea of a fixed, eternal Atman in the HGA conccept with the subsequent goal of  Nirvana.  Why even include the HGA?  Why not just hold Nirvana as the main goal?  Do westerners need a HGA crutch on the way to Nirvana?


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Anonymous
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I was wondering why this thread has largely been ignored and it occurred to me that I was advised, not too long ago,  to give my views on any thread-subject I start and wish to discuss, and not just ask an open ended  question..... so here goes...

As I said ,in Buddhism, a mental fetter, chain or bond  shackles a sentient being to saṃsāra, the cycle of lives with dukkha. By cutting through all fetters, one attains  nirvāṇa).  What didn't occur to me , fully, was that Buddhism, although employed by AC in his system, it is Old Aeon.  I think that this can cause confusion

Nevertheless Sutta Pitaka's list of ten "fetters of becoming" are these at odds with my view of what Thelema is?  I have omitted the more metaphysical fetters as follows

4 : Silabata Paramesa    Attachment to rites and rituals

If one can only "sort oneself out" or ground oneself without doing one's morning Star Ruby ritual (or what have you) then yes one is fettered.  However  35.Let the rituals be rightly performed with joy & beauty!
36.There are rituals of the elements and feasts of the times
  Rituals are a core part of Thelema so this is beyond my understanding at present

5 : vyāpādo or byāpādo  Anger/ill will

This is indicative of someone not doing their True Will in my opinion as echoed in the following writing, Only if ye are sorrowful, or weary, or angry, or discomforted; then ye may know that ye have lost the golden thread, the thread wherewith I guide you to the heart of the groves of Eleusis.   Liber Tzaddi

However , perhaps there is  a righteous form of anger, a contentious issue, particularly for forum-moderators, as follows

A King may choose his garment as he will: there is no certain test: but a beggar cannot hide his poverty.
59.Beware therefore! Love all, lest perchance is a King concealed! Say you so? Fool! If he be a King, thou canst not hurt him.
60.Therefore strike hard & low, and to hell with them, master!

6 : Udakkha  Anxiety/stress of trying to hold onto things (restlessness in a universe of change)

This is basic "lust for result" (imperfect will) as Assiah is change. 

7  Mano  Conceit translated as "pride", "arrogance. . It is defined as an inflated mind that makes whatever is suitable, such as wealth or learning, to be the foundation of pride. It creates the basis for disrespecting others and for the occurrence of suffering.

How about that for a good documentation of a lot of the posts on this forum  :)?  Again, it is indicative of self-division so I agree that this harmonious with Thelema  to treat, "conceit" as a fetter.

8 Sakkya-ditti  Erroneous view of the existence of a self

The , "self" here is the ego identifying self which of course is  a fetter to our True Will

9  Kama  sensual desire (kāmacchando)

Interesting one this as we are commanded to lust and enjoy all things of sense and rapture................ Perhaps the direful judgements of RHK are the Buddhist law of craving and suffering. 

I asked ,"Also, the Buddha dismissed the  Atman concept as being  obsolete and there is no aspiration to an Atman in Buddhism, instead the aim, for all  is no-mind /Nirvana.  OTOH  Crowley used the idea of a fixed, eternal Atman in the HGA conccept with the subsequent goal of  Nirvana.  Why even include the HGA?  Why not just hold Nirvana as the main goal?  Do westerners need a HGA crutch on the way to Nirvana?"

I think that, on review, the term, "HGA" could actually represent either/or Eternal Self or Liberation from Eternal Self as attainment of No-Self.  This is beyond my understanding at present,  I humbly admit.

As an overview , the traditional Zen monk or Buddhist monk, as I understand has no part of society. They are a sort of spiritual hermit and in Liber Legis we are warned against this, as follows   

Behold! these be grave mysteries; for there are also of my friends who be hermits. Now think not to find them in the forest or on the mountain; but in beds of purple, caressed by magnificent beasts of women with large limbs, and fire and light in their eyes, and masses of flaming hair about them; there shall ye find them. Ye shall see them at rule, at victorious armies, at all the joy; and there shall be in them a joy a million times greater than this

My 2 cents,

Thankyou


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jamie barter
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"david" wrote:
I was wondering why this thread has largely been ignored and it occurred to me that I was advised, not too long ago,  to give my views on any thread-subject I start and wish to discuss, and not just ask an open ended  question..... so here goes...

I interrupt my little break to say that I actually harbour some ‘compassion’ with you on this one, Dave (– can I call you Dave? Too late now if not, anyhoo…!), coming from a position where I have tried to get threads moving and been met with either silence or relative silence & apathy in response.  In fact if you take my advice from practical experience: not many people care if you give your own views on any thread–topic, I would imagine, old flower: accept that, and move on from there!

So, even though I can’t claim to be anything like an expert on Buddhism (maybe Mahatma Guru Sri Azidonis will favour us with some relevant pensées, if he is fired to do so by reading this) I thought I’d put my own two cents in your bowl, as it were.

"david" wrote:
As I said, in Buddhism, a mental fetter, chain or bond  shackles a sentient being to saṃsāra, the cycle of lives with dukkha. By cutting through all fetters, one attains  nirvāṇa).  What didn't occur to me , fully, was that Buddhism, although employed by AC in his system, it is Old Aeon.  I think that this can cause confusion

This, despite Buddhism being ritually cursed in The Book of the Law! (as in III:53, where RHK “tears out the flesh of the Buddhist”).  Where exactly would it be “employed in A.C.’s system”?  As A.C. himself pointed out in his essay The Soldier & The Hunchback: “is not the Buddhist’s goad ‘Everything is sorrow’ little better than a currish whine?  A weak, dirty, paltry cur, sir, your Gautama!”  In some respects, it stands for the virtual antithesis of Thelema (compare the sentiments of “wishing you a speedy termination of existence” with “Existence is pure joy… enjoy all things of sense and rapture”, etc (II: 09 and II:22) – as you yourself mention under Fetter #9.)

Also, the title of the thread refers to the fetters of Buddhism and Thelema, however your discussion has principally revolved around the Buddhist ones.  Are there ten Thelemic fetters, in fact?  Please would you indicate them and in which verses they specifically appear?

"david" wrote:
Nevertheless Sutta Pitaka's list of ten "fetters of becoming" are these at odds with my view of what Thelema is?

Isn’t it lucky there’s only ten!!  (I expect he could have come up with some more, if he really put his mind to it)

"david" wrote:
I have omitted the more metaphysical fetters as follows

But I don’t understand what is meant by that - you have only omitted your commentary on items 1-3 and #10 on the list.  Though is “Ignorance” (number 10) metaphysical?

Like I say, I’ll leave it to those more versed in Buddha’s teachings to respond fuller, except to say number 7 appears to contradict a lot of the injunctions in The Book of the Law which suggest either A.C. or readers generally be in some way “proud”.  It is clearly not meant to be the same as hubris (I feel), but doesn’t seem to be that far off.  Maybe we (others) could debate the meaning of Thelemic pride if it hasn’t already been covered somewhere else…?

“But better to fetter me – not”
- attrib. alleg. Hare Hoodooni
(N Joy)


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Anonymous
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"jamie barter" wrote:
This, despite Buddhism being ritually cursed in The Book of the Law! (as in III:53, where RHK “tears out the flesh of the Buddhist”).  Where exactly would it be “employed in A.C.’s system”?  As A.C. himself pointed out in his essay The Soldier & The Hunchback: “is not the Buddhist’s goad ‘Everything is sorrow’ little better than a currish whine?  A weak, dirty, paltry cur, sir, your Gautama!”  In some respects, it stands for the virtual antithesis of Thelema (compare the sentiments of “wishing you a speedy termination of existence” with “Existence is pure joy… enjoy all things of sense and rapture”, etc (II: 09 and II:22) – as you yourself mention under Fetter #9.)

No, Buddha acknowledged that existence is pure joy also.............  but only for the righteous who follow his noble path.  Everyone else suffers.  Liber Legis states the same  with , “there is death for the dogs”, a lesson in the flawed dualistic nature of perception which induces sorrow of aversion-desire.  We see this is, “Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby there cometh (wait for it) hurt (sorrow).”  That could’ve come straight out of Buddha’s mouth.

etc etc  lots of other significant , relevant examples.

Is Buddhism “ritually cursed” by RHK?  Note that RHK pecks out the eyes of Christ yes but He tears the flesh out of “the buddhist not Buddha.  Maybe this echoes Nietzsche’s “the last christian died on the cross” ie  followers of great ideas (religions) miss the point about attainment and go off on a tangent of stupidity as they  create moral structures around the figure or the prophet.     

Where did Crowley use Buddhism?  The grades over the Abyss correlate to the Three Charcteristcis of Buddhism?  Sorrow, Impermanence and No Self?  Am I right?  Clearly Crowley was totally  informed by the Dhammapada his entire lifespan and the method of science is taken from Buddhism.   

By the way.  You asked are there ten Thelemic fetters?  Err, no the title is bad grammar perhaps should'vde been, "Are the ten fetters of Buddhism relevant in Thelema?"  My bad.

Fetter seven, pride.  Crowley said he suffered from this,"the pride of the Lion" so the fact that Liber Legis tells us to "be proud" is testament to the theory that AC's negative conditioning influenced his reception.  That's one way of looking at it but I see it as a semantic issue and the "pride2 addressed in Liber Legis is the "pride"/satiety of attainment.

Thanks you raised some good points.


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jamie barter
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"david" wrote:
No, Buddha acknowledged that existence is pure joy also.............  but only for the righteous who follow his noble path.  Everyone else suffers.

You may be right – if so, I don’t think I have come across it before – but would you mind saying if there is a specific reference for this – inasmuch as: are you extrapolating, or did he (Buddha) say anywhere, anything tantamount to those four simple words ‘existence is pure joy’? 

Regarding the issue, perhaps it might be pertinent to add the following about which A.C. remarked in his Collected Works Vol. II p, 278 Footnote 1:

A talented but debauched Irishman has composed the following, which I can deplore but not refute, for this type of man is probably more prone to reproduce his species than any other.  He called it ‘Summa Spes’:

Existence being sorrow,
  The cause of it desire,
A merry tune I borrow
  To light upon the lyre:
If death destroy me quite,
  Then, I canst lament it,
I’ve lived, kept life alight,
  And – damned if I repent it!

Let me die in a ditch
  Damnably drunk,
Or lipping a punk,
  Or in bed with a bitch!
I was ever a hog;
  Muck? I am one with it!
Let me die like a dog,
  Die, and have done with it!
[Etc.]

Furthermore, on the issue of

"david" wrote:
With that said are you able to reconcile these traditional ten restrictions to Nirvana, with Thelema
"david" wrote:
By cutting through all fetters, one attains nirvāṇa.

I thought A.C. rather poetically put it:

[…]
Star of the eightfold Path!  Be thou revealed!
Isle of Nirvana, be the currents curled
About thee, that the swimmer touch thy shore!
Thought be your sword, and virtue be your shield!
Press on!  Who conquers shall for evermore
Pass from the fatal mischief of the world.

(A.C., New Year, 1903 – Collected Works Vol. 2 p. 127)[/align:1c7iszgg]

"david" wrote:
Liber Legis states the same  with , “there is death for the dogs”, a lesson in the flawed dualistic nature of perception which induces sorrow of aversion-desire.

It seems to be saying more that reason on its own will not survive?

"david" wrote:
We see this is, “Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby there cometh (wait for it) hurt (sorrow).”  That could’ve come straight out of Buddha’s mouth.
etc etc  lots of other significant , relevant examples.

Why, but yes!  Hurt, pain, sorrow, loneliness, gloom, doom – that’s what you get when you decide & sign up for duality.  Isn’t it lucky we didn’t all go for triplicity, or anything even more complicated, instead?!?

"david" wrote:
Is Buddhism “ritually cursed” by RHK?

Quite definitely the practice of “the Buddhist”, or even of Buddha himself, being Buddhism – as covered in terms of Liber AL III:49 (‘I am in a secret fourfold word, the blasphemy against all gods of men’) III:50 (‘Curse them! Curse them! Curse them!’) and III:54 (‘Bahlasti! Ompehda!  I spit on your crapulous creeds’), although I accept there is of course quite a difference between the metaphysics and the practice.

"david" wrote:
Note that RHK pecks out the eyes of Christ yes but He tears the flesh out of “the buddhist not Buddha.

So, yes.  But your precise point here – the “difference” – is?

"david" wrote:
Maybe this echoes Nietzsche’s “the last christian died on the cross”

As well as the first!  “Lol”!  (I suppose that’s what being the Alpha and the Omega does for one…)

"david" wrote:
ie  followers of great ideas (religions) miss the point about attainment and go off on a tangent of stupidity as they  create moral structures around the figure or the prophet.

Sigh!  Yes this is so apparent.  Structures, strictures and restriction!

"david" wrote:
Where did Crowley use Buddhism?  The grades over the Abyss correlate to the Three Charcteristcis of Buddhism?  Sorrow, Impermanence and No Self?  Am I right?

You are right there, mon brave!  Ah, the 3 Characteristics!  Of which A.C. poetically said they appeared luminous, “like three spectres on a murderer’s grave[…]” (in Part VI of his essay of the same name).  These Characteristics could be said to directly relate to the Supernals, since, as the Characteristics would be above the Abyss, they would be their own opposite relating to Anatta, Anicca and Dukkha & these would be Joy, “Deem not of change” and the ‘very self’ of Ipsissimus.
(The use of the “Three Refuges” may also apply, with the appropriate reservations regarding “Good”, “Pitying”, “Light (Nox) etc…:)

Aum! I take my refuge in the {Light and Peace of} the Buddha
Aum! I take my refuge in the Dhamma, {slowly working out his Law of Good}
Aum! I take my refuge in the Sangha, {lowly in this Pitying Brotherhood}

"david" wrote:
Clearly Crowley was totally  informed by the Dhammapada his entire lifespan and the method of science is taken from Buddhism.

But beyond the above, where else can you have in mind that A.C. uses the system?  I’m not sure about taking the whole of the method of Science from Buddhism (A.C.’s essay on the combined subjects notwithstanding) – also he wrote that “pre-Liber AL” in 1902 and substantially changed his viewpoint later on – so, in what (long term) way would you have in mind?

"david" wrote:
By the way.  You asked are there ten Thelemic fetters?  Err, no the title is bad grammar perhaps should'vde been, "Are the ten fetters of Buddhism relevant in Thelema?"  My bad.

Not only your grammar - your punctuation and spelling also there, David.  Tsk!  Tsk!  Fortunately, some of your ideas and points are quite sound, though!

"david" wrote:
Fetter seven, pride.  Crowley said he suffered from this,"the pride of the Lion"

Yes, he was called Big Lion at Cefalu, I think (according to The Diary of a Drug Fiend).  By the kiddywinks especially

"david" wrote:
so the fact that Liber Legis tells us to "be proud" is testament to the theory that AC's negative conditioning influenced his reception.  That's one way of looking at it but I see it as a semantic issue

Do you mean you think his really suffering from this negative conditioning resulted in an inferiority complex which he felt compelled to try to overcome?

"david" wrote:
and the "pride" addressed in Liber Legis is the "pride"/satiety of attainment.

I think it is more than that.

Also, I notice from

"david" wrote:
4 : Silabata Paramesa    Attachment to rites and rituals
If one can only "sort oneself out" or ground oneself without doing one's morning Star Ruby ritual (or what have you) then yes one is fettered.  However  35.Let the rituals be rightly performed with joy & beauty!
36.There are rituals of the elements and feasts of the times
  Rituals are a core part of Thelema so this is beyond my understanding at present

that the following from Liber Librae may be of some relevance to the trifold matter of thought, word and deed:

13. True ritual is as much action as word; it is Will
16. To obtain magical Power, learn to control thought; […]
17. Fixed thought is a means to an end.  Therefore pay attention to the power of silent thought and meditation. […]

Yes, thanks, you too seem to have raised some good points!  Long may it all continue & hopefully others may feel compelled to join the conversation you initiated also.

Joining the dots . .. .’..’..’. ...
[sup:1c7iszgg]N[/sup:1c7iszgg] Joy


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"jamie barter" wrote:
This, despite Buddhism being ritually cursed in The Book of the Law! (as in III:53, where RHK “tears out the flesh of the Buddhist”).  Where exactly would it be “employed in A.C.’s system”?  As A.C. himself pointed out in his essay The Soldier & The Hunchback: “is not the Buddhist’s goad ‘Everything is sorrow’ little better than a currish whine?  A weak, dirty, paltry cur, sir, your Gautama!”  In some respects, it stands for the virtual antithesis of Thelema (compare the sentiments of “wishing you a speedy termination of existence” with “Existence is pure joy… enjoy all things of sense and rapture”, etc (II: 09 and II:22) – as you yourself mention under Fetter #9.)

Also, the title of the thread refers to the fetters of Buddhism and Thelema, however your discussion has principally revolved around the Buddhist ones.  Are there ten Thelemic fetters, in fact?  Please would you indicate them and in which verses they specifically appear?

Buddhists - whether he is Mahayana or Theravada - in my experience are very happy and open people. I don't think it's wrong to say there exists sorrow on our plane? I even don't think the acceptance of Thelema cures you of sorrwos completely, see AC's biography.
Buddhism is about THE STATE OF MIND to conquer 'sorrow' and experience true joy and bliss in meditation and Buddhism offers lots of practice and techniques for this.
Not sure if Crowley ever experienced Tantric Buddhism - in his 'Book of Thoth' he referred to phurbas as 'dorjes' - so he couldn't be familiar with their practice.
Anyway 'tearing away flesh' leaves bare-bones - the usable system and essence of the teachings which can be applied to ANY 'religion' then. So Liber Al was right.

Just my thoughts.


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Anonymous
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Ha! That, "bare bones" point is brilliant.  Thanks.


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Tiger
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Offering flesh and blood to the demons, phantasms, in the universal charnel ground. Chod
just another take


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Azidonis
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"david" wrote:
With that said are you able to reconcile these traditional ten restrictions to Nirvana, with Thelema,  particularly as we have the following passage in Liber Legis ? " 53 With my claws I tear out the flesh of the Indian and the Buddhist, Mongol and Din".

They each have their qualities, don't they? 🙂

"david" wrote:
Also, the Buddha dismissed the  Atman concept as being  obsolete and there is no aspiration to an Atman in Buddhism, instead the aim, for all  is no-mind /Nirvana.

Not for the Bodhisattva.

"david" wrote:
OTOH  Crowley used the idea of a fixed, eternal Atman in the HGA conccept with the subsequent goal of  Nirvana.

As though it were some after-effect.

"david" wrote:
Why even include the HGA?

Perhaps he was more of a realist, and decided that he wanted the bulk of his message to not go too far over people's heads. In short, it helped him gain a broader, more sympathetic audience. A "PR Move".

Or, it could have something to do with the fact that very little is necessary by way of written instruction for an Adept, so there is less written about it overall.

"david" wrote:
Why not just hold Nirvana as the main goal?  Do westerners need a HGA crutch on the way to Nirvana?

Best to let them struggle with the image of an HGA, then be careless enough to conjure an image about Nirvana, imo.


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jamie barter
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"princediamond" wrote:
[...] Anyway 'tearing away flesh' leaves bare-bones - the usable system and essence of the teachings which can be applied to ANY 'religion' then. So Liber Al was right.
Just my thoughts.

Yes that’s an interesting point you made about the bare bones being left…  I hadn’t considered looking at it that way before.  Bravo!  Isn’t the implication that the merits of Hinduism, Confucianism, Buddhism and the other one (‘Din’ ?!) mentioned in III:53 are each of the same degree of value, with one of them not better or worse in itself than another (but none of them as out of focus as Judaism, Xianity or Islam).

"princediamond" wrote:
Buddhists - whether he is Mahayana or Theravada - in my experience are very happy and open people.

This is sometimes known as “gallows humour” !?!

“Eat Y’ Self Fetter” (after Mark E. Smith) -
[sup:1uzt1xkr]N[/sup:1uzt1xkr] joy


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Shiva
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"Azidonis" wrote:
Perhaps he was more of a realist, and decided that he wanted the bulk of his message to not go too far over people's heads.

Why, this seems to be exactly correct. AC indicated that attaining to "the knowledge and conversation of the HGA" was the next step for humanity, and, as I remember it, this was the next step for average humanity; the "common person," as it were. At no point did he say that nirvana was the next step for the bulk of humanity - although he did a great job of describing the so-called supernal realms.

"princediamond" wrote:
Buddhists - whether he is Mahayana or Theravada - in my experience are very happy and open people.

Yes, this is the general "affectation" that Buddhists seem to show forth. But then we have to consider that, in certain eastern countries, they are embroiled in strife, mayhem and murder, which is not very happy and open. I believe their main opponents are Jijadists, and who knows who started the conflict(s), but I suspect is was not the Buddhists, and their actions may be those of self-defense and (perhaps) revenge. Most Buddhists that I have (really) known do indeed put on the happy face, and these were Oriental folk (not western converts), but inside they suffered from despair and held a goodly amount of anger that would break out in external problems - just like adherents of any other religion.

Could it be that Buddhist practices don't really liberate the practitioners, but merely encourage a superficial "peace?" The fact remains that no philosophy or religion offers practices that produce liberation; if any sure-fire practices had surfaced, more folks would be liberated. Liberated from what?

Why, the mind, of course.


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jamie barter
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"Shiva" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
Perhaps he was more of a realist, and decided that he wanted the bulk of his message to not go too far over people's heads.

Why, this seems to be exactly correct. AC indicated that attaining to "the knowledge and conversation of the HGA" was the next step for humanity, and, as I remember it, this was the next step for average humanity; the "common person," as it were. At no point did he say that nirvana was the next step for the bulk of humanity - although he did a great job of describing the so-called supernal realms.

In terms of looking at the "Mappa Mundi", the Tree of Life, the KCHGA - being attributable to Tiph/ number 6 - has to be approached before the Supernals (1 to 3).  By everyone approaching it as a preliminary, this would have to include the “common person” (or our old friend Joe Schmo), nascent gurus or whomever.

"Shiva" wrote:
"princediamond" wrote:
Buddhists - whether he is Mahayana or Theravada - in my experience are very happy and open people.

Yes, this is the general "affectation" that Buddhists seem to show forth. But then we have to consider that, in certain eastern countries, they are embroiled in strife, mayhem and murder, which is not very happy and open. I believe their main opponents are Jijadists, and who knows who started the conflict(s), but I suspect is was not the Buddhists, and their actions may be those of self-defense and (perhaps) revenge. Most Buddhists that I have (really) known do indeed put on the happy face, and these were Oriental folk (not western converts), but inside they suffered from despair and held a goodly amount of anger that would break out in external problems - just like adherents of any other religion.

Could it be that Buddhist practices don't really liberate the practitioners, but merely encourage a superficial "peace?" The fact remains that no philosophy or religion offers practices that produce liberation; if any sure-fire practices had surfaced, more folks would be liberated. Liberated from what?

Why, the mind, of course.

Leaving aside the political aspects mentioned, these appear to relate to what Wilhelm Reich has described as the 'unresolved' secondary emotional drives which are normally suppressed beneath the surface by the censor within everyday consciousness, and need to be rectified (rectificando) before the individual can pass on to an organic functioning wholeness – or perhaps liberation, if one prefers.

[sup:1wa2vj6b]'N[/sup:1wa2vj6b] Joy


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gurugeorge
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The relation of Crowley's thought to Buddhism is complex.  I mean, his primary sources for Buddhism were the SBE series, the academic "best guess" at the time, and Alan Bennett, who was grounded in a genuine Theravada tradition.  But the SBE series translations can now be seen to be highly idiosyncratic in places, and Bennett was one of the earliest Western pioneers to embed himself in a proper Buddhist tradition, and it's possible his understanding wasn't as well-triangulated as that of later people who have done the same thing.  So perhaps we might be wise to take Crowley's second- and third-hand reading of Buddhism with a pinch of salt? 

AC's exposure to Mahayana traditions seems to be negligible, and to Buddhist Tantric traditions proper, non-existent.  Yet since AC's death, the Mahayana has been the main Buddhist Vehicle to which the West has been exposed, especially via the popular Tibetan schools.  And the Mahayana system, while it shares a good deal of basic stuff with the Theravada, seems to be quite different from the Theravada tradition in many doctrinal and metaphysical respects.

(Interestingly, the vinaya traditions, the traditions of monks' discipline, seem to be much more stable and similar across traditions.  Allowing for local variations due to necessity - such as cold climate allowing warmer clothing, available food types necessitating that Tibetan monks be allowed a non-vegetarian diet, and political conditions, such as China not allowing monks to live by begging necessitating that monks cultivate their own crops, etc. - monks across traditions have lived a pretty similar day-to-day life in many ways, down the centuries.)

So yeah, pinch o' salt.  Probably not wise to take anything AC says about Buddhism as gospel.  Probably wiser to take what Buddhists from those various traditions say, as they've come to us since AC's death, more seriously.

But at the same time, the thing that all these things are about, is probably (though we can' be absolutely sure) the same thing.  All the religions, all the mysticisms, have tantalizing similarities and analogies, if you squint at them and turn them about and look at them from different angles.

For example, the physiological angle: we are all constructed very similarly, and while ideas can effloresce in great variety, things the body can do are more limited.  At the same time, it's now beyond doubt that the brain and nervous system are intimately related to what we are pleased to call "consciousness", and that thoughts, feelings, etc., have some sort of parallel in those physical goings-on, although the precise nature and purport of the connection aren't yet clear.

So yeah, blind men and elephant.  Buddhism is one blind man, who perhaps has a highly developed sense of touch, Daoism another, who's sense of smell is very good, etc., etc., etc.  All these schools are doing physical things and mental things, and getting certain results, and they are giving those things they do names, and they're giving the results names.

The names have to be translated into other languages, and translations may be done by people who haven't done any of those things themselves.  I'm particularly aware of this from the field of martial arts, where no end of mischief has been done by academics translating what are essentially "terms of art" into everyday language or metaphysical terms that sound bizarre if you aren't part of the tradition.  If it's that bad with physical traditions where the connection between physical action, or physical syndrome, and term of art, is blatant and obvious, how much more so must the translations we use be sketchy when it comes to psychology - and how much more so when it comes to something as recondite as mysticism, or magick?

So: oral traditions, actual teaching, living in with traditions, etc., etc.

The long and short of it is that it's going to take a few hundred more years of triangulation and cross-fertilization, before any of this can be really clear.  And even in terms of what Crowley foresaw, and did his best to start - the use of scentific method in mysticism and magick - we're only at the earliest stages. 

Yet, at the same time, there's an elephant right now, for each of us, and we're all blindly checking out this elephant.  Each of us has to place our bets however we see fit, on what the bloody thing is.  And so long as we don't get into fisticuffs over our several interpretations, it's all good, clean fun.

So, my bet: just as AC says in Eight Lectures that the Buddha never advised anyone to avoid meditating in a flat next to someone with a radio (and nor did AC advise anyone to avoid meditating in a flat next to someone with a tv or an XBox), so some of those traditional lists are parochial and relate to contemporary concerns (e.g. re. 1 and 4, who the hell is overly exercised by rebirth or obsessed by rituals these days?), while some are still valid (e.g. 5 and 6), and some, curiously, might become more valid in the future (e.g. 3 is becoming more and more possible). 

But all of them are related to: creating conditions whereby the mind can become focussed and one-pointed, unflustered, unfluttered, and unperturbed, so it can get on with figuring out what the elephant is.  And with any such list of injunctions, you have to be honest about what flusters you.  You might think that a shag before a race doesn't do any harm, but it might do, and you might be rationalizing - or you might be right, it doesn't.  You just have to be icily honest about what perturbs your equilibrium and what doesn't.

As to the higher end, the elephant, the Nirvana, the One, the Dao, the Great Whatever - AC advised that while "wandering around in the Supernal wonderland" is tremendous fun, it can itself be a form of, ahem, self-flustering - especially if, sitting there with a glazed expression, wondering about what Nirvana is, makes you miss your appointment with the meditation cushion 🙂


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Shiva
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The ten fetters of Buddhism are the same as the ten black belt grades (dan) of Japanese martial arts, and the same 10 roundies of the Tree (i.e., Malkuth to Kether), and the ten numbers of the decimal system. Take any system. Count the steps or stages. Goodness  😮  How often do they number to ten?

"Almost always," said the manipulator.


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jamie barter
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"gurugeorge" wrote:
Yet, at the same time, there's an elephant right now, for each of us, and we're all blindly checking out this elephant.  Each of us has to place our bets however we see fit, on what the bloody thing is.  And so long as we don't get into fisticuffs over our several interpretations, it's all good, clean fun.

So, my bet: just as AC says in Eight Lectures that the Buddha never advised anyone to avoid meditating in a flat next to someone with a radio (and nor did AC advise anyone to avoid meditating in a flat next to someone with a tv or an XBox), so some of those traditional lists are parochial and relate to contemporary concerns (e.g. re. 1 and 4, who the hell is overly exercised by rebirth or obsessed by rituals these days?), while some are still valid (e.g. 5 and 6), and some, curiously, might become more valid in the future (e.g. 3 is becoming more and more possible). 

But all of them are related to: creating conditions whereby the mind can become focussed and one-pointed, unflustered, unfluttered, and unperturbed, so it can get on with figuring out what the elephant is.

GuruGeorge correctly pointed out the parochial nature of some of the items on "the list”.  While some remain timeless in relation to “the human condition” (what a lovely pretentious phrase, that is!) some are more clearly bolted in to the times when they were written.  For the entire list to remain relevant, like most other things it would need to adapt and not be stuck in the past. 

I previously touched upon this seeming predilection for the decimal (/ base 10) system

"jamie barter" wrote:
"david" wrote:
Nevertheless Sutta Pitaka's list of ten "fetters of becoming" are these at odds with my view of what Thelema is?

Isn’t it lucky there’s only ten!!  (I expect he could have come up with some more, if he really put his mind to it)

Clearly they seem to originally relate to the fact that it was chosen as a matter of convenience simply because we have ten digits on both our hands.  It raises many questions whether, just because of that, 10 is the best number from which to proceed further – rather than settling for the rest for time with the one which we arbitrarily started with. 

"Shiva" wrote:
The ten fetters of Buddhism are the same as the ten black belt grades (dan) of Japanese martial arts, and the same 10 roundies of the Tree (i.e., Malkuth to Kether), and the ten numbers of the decimal system. Take any system. Count the steps or stages. Goodness  😮  How often do they number to ten?

"Almost always," said the manipulator.

However, there are “a number” of exceptions.  The AA’s (the drunks’ AA) programme is Twelve Steps.  The OTO’s (apart from the administrative) has Nine Degrees (although ten, if one is counting the Minerval.  But then again, if we count Daath, there are Eleven “roundies” of the Tree too…).  The I Ching doesn’t fit in with the decimal system at all, relating instead to either octaves (8 x 8 ) or the fundamental binary extensions of Yin and Yang (the same could also apply to Geomancy’s 16).  Scientology’s “Operating Thetan” also has Eight released levels available (although they are supposed to go up to 15?).

I could go on further; I am sure there must be many more exceptions to the basic rule than that indicated by “Almost always”... (which phrase, btw, reminds me of Yoko Ono’s similar “Approximately Infinite Universe”.  And in reference to which - and notwithstanding Liber AL I:4 - I am sure that prime numbers [i.e., those indivisible except by themselves, 1 and 0] also hold some special qualities in a way that the decimal system, and maybe at least all even numbers, do not.)

Nelly the Elephant packed her trunk (and said goodbye to the circus),
N Joy


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Shiva
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"jamie barter" wrote:
However, there are “a number” of exceptions.
"Shiva" wrote:
How often do they number to ten? "Almost always".

Note: "Almost" allows for exceptions.

"jamie barter" wrote:
The OTO’s (apart from the administrative) has Nine Degrees...

Right. And most Japanese martial arts have nine degrees. So, really, there are nine points to consider, with the tenth (OTO et Martial Arts) being honorary. Let's face it, there are only nine numbers, with any 10's being a one (again) plus a zero - to indicate a new series/round is starting again.

"jamie barter" wrote:
The I Ching doesn’t fit in with the decimal system at all ...

Eight trigrams + yin + yang = 10 (see Book of Thoth diagram).

"jamie barter" wrote:
I could go on further ...

So could I or anyone else. My point was that "almost" any system can be squeezed, shoved, shoveled, or wormed into and onto the Tree of Life. Sometimes it takes a bit of mathematical fiddling. There really are not ten fetters, nor nine. There is only one: The sense of "self." When that disappears, all numbers vanish. Like my present departure ...  😮


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Azidonis
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"Shiva" wrote:
My point was that "almost" any system can be squeezed, shoved, shoveled, or wormed into and onto the Tree of Life. Sometimes it takes a bit of mathematical fiddling. There really are not ten fetters, nor nine. There is only one: The sense of "self." When that disappears, all numbers vanish. Like my present departure ...  😮

R.L. Gillis did a nice essay on the "Base 10" system. Of course, the TEQ works on a "Base 3" system, which is why it is hailed as a new paradigm.

From the Tree of Life to Crowley's Naples Arrangement, to many other things - it is undeniable that we are currently working in a Base 10 system in the world-at-large, and have been for a very long time. We can go anywhere from mysticism to money, from the decimal system to scientific notation, and around again, finding the evidence of its usage nearly everywhere worldwide.

As for the sense of self being the cause/blame, I tend to agree.


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"Shiva" wrote:
Eight trigrams + yin + yang = 10 (see Book of Thoth diagram).

Although in this case, Crowley has it as 11.

Eight trigrams + yin + yang + The Tao = 11


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Azidonis
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"aleks356" wrote:
"Shiva" wrote:
Eight trigrams + yin + yang = 10 (see Book of Thoth diagram).

Although in this case, Crowley has it as 11.

Eight trigrams + yin + yang + The Tao = 11

The Tao that can be quantified is not the true Tao.


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"Azidonis" wrote:
"aleks356" wrote:
"Shiva" wrote:
Eight trigrams + yin + yang = 10 (see Book of Thoth diagram).

Although in this case, Crowley has it as 11.

Eight trigrams + yin + yang + The Tao = 11

The Tao that can be quantified is not the true Tao.

That is correct. Nothing which we can express in language or thought is the true Tao.


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Azidonis
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"aleks356" wrote:
That is correct.


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 Anonymous
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LOL


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Shiva
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"Azidonis" wrote:

Oh yeah, I forgot  ???
Everything is really based on five, so the ten fetters need to be doubled up and re-counted.


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dom
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A good thread zombified here to maybe run in tandem with the Christianity and Thelema thread (where Shakyamuni was mentioned) going on at the moment. 

 

Christianity and Thelema – Page 7 – Thelema – LAShTAL.COM Forum

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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dom
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Did Shakyamuni (Buddha) get it wrong?    How?

 

Re;

53. With my claws I tear out the flesh of the Indian and the Buddhist, Mongol and Din.

54. Bahlasti! Ompehda! I spit on your crapulous creeds.

 

'Crapulous' (intoxicated) 'creeds' (a set of beliefs that influences the way you live).

Buddha was very practical and scientific, when asked if God exists he said it was irrelevant, if one has an arrow in one's body how does one pull it out?  That's the question.   The Four Noble Truths read like a logical statement;

 

1.  This exists.

2.  This exists because of that.

3.That can be overcome.

4. Here are the methods by which you do it.

 

Likewise The Eight Worldly Concerns, The Five Hindrances and The Four Attachments all appear to be logical however what is being disputed in AL Chapter 3 appears to be the moral rules i.e. the 'creeds'. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Tiger
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what is being disputed in AL Chapter 3 appears to be the moral rules i.e. the 'creeds'.

I see it as slavish adherence to (a set of beliefs that influences the way you live ) ’Crapulous' (intoxicated) 'creeds’; without reflection, without doing “ the work”

And also as a tantric shock to a a goody two shoes keep your nose clean ideal.

Championing a process of becoming, evolving, developing, towards new forms of existence, and organization, towards new and higher levels of being with vigor rather than gentleness, confidence rather than tenderness, strength rather than sweetness, displaying a posture and the gesture of fearlessness.

A pointing to a path that does not see nature and existence as Sin, but as an infinitely complex shifting pattern of mental phenomena, dependent on certain conditions, and disappearing when these conditions disappear which is the ground upon which the seed for potential blossoms.

Not against nature but in tune with the fundamental structure of the universe.

One that can recognize swindlers, money lenders, tax collectors, and prostitutes enmeshed in their condition, and see through to the fertile ground upon which a seed can grow .

Tasting the fruit of knowledge and evil, discerning and seeing unskillful states and skillful states.

Entering a different category, definition of existence than ordinary man.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @tiger

without reflection, without doing “ the work”

More heresy from Road Aisle Land. Six words that sum up the whole problem. "Burn the warlock."

Posted by: @tiger

Entering a different category, definition of existence than ordinary man.

Hark!  See yonder Stranger wanding in a Strange(Aisle) Land.


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dom
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Posted by: @tiger

what is being disputed in AL Chapter 3 appears to be the moral rules i.e. the 'creeds'.

I see it as slavish adherence to (a set of beliefs that influences the way you live ) ’Crapulous' (intoxicated) 'creeds’; without reflection, without doing “ the work”

 

In other words irrelevancies.

Buddhism also split, there are disagreements between the Tibetans (presumably the "Mongol" namechecked in AL) with their rituals (particularly the death-bed rituals) and the rest.  Also Zen Buddhism broke away from the main body even though Zen Masters will often quote Buddha. 

Tiger why are you not a Monk?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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@dom
In other words irrelevancies.

For all one knows a card carrying due paying member taking a gander at a finger pointing to the moon could be.

Buddhism also split, there are disagreements

The Buddha taught different systems to different types of temperaments which split into
mostly classed under four categories of The Noble Vehicle, The bodhisattva Vehicle, the Magical Vehicle, and Truth is best understood and heard through silence Vehicle.
There are a lot of branches of Buddhism more varied than branches of protestantism, not all agree with each other.

Tiger why are you not a Monk?

Because i roam the burning ground outside of cliques.

.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @tiger

i roam the burning ground outside of cliques.

Yeah, I've heard of you Aghories (Ah-gories?)(Ag-hoor-ys?)(regardless of how it's spelled).

 


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When i was a teenage punk-rock vagabond in India in the '70s, the Saivite (Shiva-worshiping) Aghori sadhus were notorious for approaching groups of young travelers about to smoke a joint or chillum, and, with many smiles and broken English blessings, getting offered the first hit, and then holding said joint/chillum to their forehead, while chanting "Bom! Bom! Bom! BOM SHANKAR!", and then inhaling the eternity of the joint or chillum in one hit, like 4-5 grams of strong hashish and a couple broken up cigarettes, and sitting grinning at you as they held it in for several minutes.

Sidhis, yo. Practical pranayama skills.

You could more or less tell how long someone had been out east by whether they treated an approaching sadhu as a holy man (stage 1), or an annoying pest like a pigeon (stage 2), or both (stage 3).


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wellreadwellbred
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What inspired you to visit India, ignant666?


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ignant666
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I needed to leave France for at least 24 hours, or get a resident's permit, which involved spending time at the police station. My experiences with French policemen, or any policemen for that matter, were not such as to encourage further contact.

So i had to go somewhere. First i thought of Amsterdam, and then Morocco, and then Afghanistan; i bought a bus ticket for Istanbul and headed east.

I went in search of adventure, and cheap high-quality hashish. I got plenty of both.


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Shiva
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Everybody has to get stoned. Everybody has to take the mandatory Journey to the East. Sometimes it takes variant forms; sometimes it's not True East. Sometimes it's very different from Hess's metaphorical novel, and Ignant's bus ride, but it will be arranged that you go ...


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ignant666
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I just noticed my typo, which is possibly very Freudian: '"the eternity of" the joint or chillum, where what i intended was "the entirety".


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dom
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Posted by: @ignant666

I just noticed my typo, which is possibly very Freudian: '"the eternity of" the joint or chillum, where what i intended was "the entirety".

More Jungian that Freudian.  Hope you have some great memories on that Afghanistan-Indian-French weed adventure.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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hadgigegenraum
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@ignant666

"Eternity of" is the more poetic...and a sign that maybe the hash is working....

Now as regards the subject at hand, not the chillum, one needs to realize, at least according to a friend, a Tibetan, a former 'Yellow Hat' monk, with many hash stories, that Buddhism is a concept from the British... for when asked by another friend about 'Buddhism' and whether it was a religion or not, where the distinction of import to the atheist questioner was whether there was ritual or not, to which then 'Buddhism' could be safely  categorized as a 'philosophy' and not a dreaded 'religion'.

Upon a smile at the question to the answer to the colonialists nominalism came the purport of a definition : "Wisdom and Compassion- the cultivation of wisdom and compassion."....to which in reference to the issue of 'ritual' and our smile, concerned simply stating that there are three vehicles in the traditions of cultivating wisdom and compassion, Hinayana, Mahiyanna and Tantra.. to which various infusions of ritual can be found, or not, to which it observing and thinking in everyday life to which the option of acting out of compassion can thus be a wisdom found in having to fend for one's self, be it in the streets of Asia or America after an injury hurt his memory forcing abdication from the rigors of memorization demanded of the monks...

Yes strike low and hard was an ever ready option, but wisdom and compassion, cultivated the hard way in the streets had cultivated a certain kingly composure over the years...and without pushing chillums in one's face...


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ignant666
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

a sign that maybe the hash is working....

No hash working as i typed that, sadly, but perhaps the very nice Kosher Kush from the medical dispensary was amending my typing...

The "Kosher" part of the name is appropriate for Baby Jeebus Day, what with him being Jewish and all. And it's "the first commercial [cannabis] strain blessed by a Rabbi."


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ignant666
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I suppose i took as obvious the connection of the "Kush" part of Kosher Kush with both my "Journey to the East", and Buddhism, and only explained the (perhaps tenuous) connection to Baby Jeebus Day.

The "Kush" part of the name refers to Kosher Kush being a hybrid that includes "Kush" genetics. This is a famous strain of Cannabis indica that originated in the Hindu Kush, a mountain range between Afghanistan and Pakistan that was "a stronghold of polytheistic faiths until the 19th century". "Hindu Kush" means "Hindu Killer" in Farsi/Persian.

The connection with the OT is that the famous Bamiyan Buddhas destroyed by the Taliban in 2001 were also in the Hindu Kush, a region that was largely Buddhist by 100 E.V.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @ignant666

"the eternity of" the joint or chillum, where what i intended was "the entirety".

I saw through that one, so I was not confused.

Then I became confused and wrote "Hess's" when I meant Hesse's.

Herman Hesse's Journey to the East is a story about an Outer Order, a Band of Merry Men, who set out collectively to find the Sanctum Sanctorum. But even they become confused, and the Band breaks up, with each individual either disappearing or going off on his own.

It's an old story in a new bottle.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

forcing abdication from the rigors of memorization demanded of the monks...

Said memorization is also demanded by Therion, or O.M., or whichever name he was operating under, when he demands regurgitation of certain Holy Proses before passing to the next A.'.A.'. grade. It was the first thing I crossed off my "To Do" list.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

strike low and hard was an ever ready option

Striking Hard involves a focus of Ki. The Low part involves Always keep your Ki on the Low side. This may result in death. The Compassion part is where you focus the Ki a bit less than directly into an internal organ, and merely stun or stagger the scoundrel, thus sparing his life.

 


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dom
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

 

Upon a smile at the question to the answer to the colonialists nominalism came the purport of a definition : "Wisdom and Compassion- the cultivation of wisdom and compassion."...

I think I understand you here in that I'm pretty clueless about the differences between the traditions/vehicles but the present Dalai Lama was asked what his religion was and his answer was "kindness" but that answer embodies the practicality of Buddhism.

 

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

 

 there are three vehicles in the traditions of cultivating wisdom and compassion, Hinayana, Mahiyanna and Tantra.. to which various infusions of ritual can be found, or not, to which it observing and thinking in everyday life to which the option of acting out of compassion can thus be a wisdom found in having to fend for one's self, be it in the streets of Asia or America after an injury hurt his memory forcing abdication from the rigors of memorization demanded of the monks...

I saw a Zen Master on TV appearing to be disparaging towards the Tibetan way.  'Ritual' is one of the Five Hindrances after all.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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Just as Marx is Hegel turned upside down, Thelema is Buddhism given the same treatment.

 


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@dom
I saw a Zen Master on TV appearing to be disparaging towards the Tibetan way. 'Ritual' is one of the Five Hindrances after all. “

Tantra is in one sense about power rather than kindness in ordinary conception and really treats these as just ideas.
It goes beyond conditioned existence to explore dimensions of experience inaccessible to prevailing modes and models of habitual perceiving; liberating creative innate powers. It is a way of seeing. Sometimes in a dream we will be ourselves; the person you are now will have a dream odyssey, an adventure; you won't be aware that you're dreaming; during the dream you'll feel that you are wide awake, that you are having a solid experience; and you will be in the dream as the central character or as an observing character. You may have experiences that don't seem to relate to the world you’re in. You may find yourself in unusual circumstances or usual circumstances; or new vistas and new horizons, bring you into different levels of attention and show you worlds beyond your imagination. You may see inside yourself, and you see that you are not just one self, or one person, but a kind of a conglomerate; composed of many different selves. The conception of a one continuous being, presented with many aggregates of being may flow beyond into a network with all things and all beings not separate. The separation that existed within your own mind, when you categorically, through thoughts, thought; "I'm separate from everything out there, and every thought in there." might dissolve. good lord. And a part of all things and all things are a part; The Clear Light reflected in all; even in the hindrances and traps and Rituals, of Just Sitting; mystery and wonder, drawn from existence itself. That is magic.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @tiger

mystery and wonder, drawn from existence itself. That is magic.

It's simple. Buddhists seek the direct path without an intermediary Angel, Higher Self, or Atma-type godhead.

Tibetan Bob-Po sorcerers were all rituals with rites, gods, and demons (Tantra).

The Tibetans found the Buddhist direct path and incorporated it.

A [singular] Zen master cries out on TV against the Tibetan bad habit of using Tantra. It seems the Zen Master is like the Christian who says "My Way or the Hellfire."

The only way to decide who is right is to compile a list of those who demonstrate Binah-arrival over, say, five centuries ... then express the numbers in a ratio based on arrivals on the other shore (with returns, of course) per 100,000 of their pop (ulation). Whichever culture gets the highest number (per 100,000), gets to put forward their leading exponent as The New World Teacher, and everybody else has to give up their beliefs so that everyone, everywhere, can play on the one, true, level playing field.

Or ... each individual shuts their mouth and brain and returns to doing the work in silence ... without reference to how bad the "other" guys are.

The first method involves decades of data retrieval, committees, judges, and religious police enforcement.

The second method bypasses said decades of arguing and the religious police must return to farming.

Choose well. Your sanity depends on the proper choice.

 


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dom
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Posted by: @shiva

 

A [singular] Zen master cries out on TV against the Tibetan bad habit of using Tantra. It seems the Zen Master is like the Christian who says "My Way or the Hellfire."

 

Wake Up! On the Road with a Zen Master - YouTube

 

27m to 29m  decide for yourself if he was being disparaging, probably not actually. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Michael Staley
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MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
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I've been interested in Eastern Mysticism for as long as I can remember. I don't think there's any contradiction between Buddhism and Thelema. In my opinion, the Buddha is universal consciousness, and Thelema implies universal will or, iin other terminology, the Will of God.

Then again, my preference is for the Mahayana rather than the Hinayana, and in particular with the Prajnaparamita texts; much as I think more highly of the sublimity of the first chapter of AL.

My bad, I expect; I probably haven't struck "hard and low" at enough beggars to have an informed view.


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Tiger
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—What about the Tree of Life and the grades? Is that irrelevant because it probably is to Buddhists....or is it?

Both are a framework for exploring realities one uses them, they don’t use you; so its up to you to make relevance.


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Michael Staley
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MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4132
 
Posted by: @tiger

Both are a framework for exploring realities one uses them, they don’t use you; so its up to you to make relevance.

@dom

I agree with Tiger's approach, using what seems useful, irrespective of its source. These are stepping-stones, nothing more. From what I have assimilated thus far of Buddhism, there is nothing like the Tree of Life. However, I have worked with the Tree of Life for many years now, find it useful, and will continue to work with it for so long as I find it useful. Ditto gematria, and various other techniques.


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dom
 dom
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Posted by: @michael-staley
Posted by: @tiger

Both are a framework for exploring realities one uses them, they don’t use you; so its up to you to make relevance.

@dom

I agree with Tiger's approach, using what seems useful, irrespective of its source. These are stepping-stones, nothing more. From what I have assimilated thus far of Buddhism, there is nothing like the Tree of Life. However, I have worked with the Tree of Life for many years now, find it useful, and will continue to work with it for so long as I find it useful. Ditto gematria, and various other techniques.

Cabbalists describe the creation of the inner worlds and the outer Malkuth as emnations of Light or what have you.  Like the Buddhists they see the aim of existence as finding the 'path to return' but they differ.  The Cabbalists do it via magic rituals of desire-fulfillment and via astral projection.  That is all hinged upon the existence of a HGA. 

 

The Buddhists don't recognise any kind of eternal Self or HGA, they also view desire as the cause of our suffering.  Is all that compatible with how the Cabbalists work it?  I guess that one could argue that Buddhist meditation management eventually opens up Samekh, the path to the HGA.  Maybe the problem is that the HGA is a ludicrous concept as are all of the other mystical terms. 

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @michael-staley

I don't think there's any contradiction between Buddhism and Thelema.

It seems to me though there's an irresolvable contradiction between the two: Buddhism states that existence involves, and cannot be separated from, the woes of inevitable sorrow, suffering and therefore despair.  On the other hand Thelema, or The Book of the Law, specifically advises via Hadit through the voice of Aiwass that "existence is pure joy" and "that all the sorrows are but as shadows, they pass and are done" (II:9).

I still yet to have come across a satisfactory resolution of this apparent glaring distinction, and Buddhism's "Black" outlook appeared to AC to have been the main reason for its inclusion as one of the "crapulous creeds " castigated in III:53.

N Joy


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