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The ten fetters of Buddhism and Thelema

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kidneyhawk
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I DO think there are some parallels between the Tree and Buddhist thought. For example: Nichiren Buddhism (emerging from the T'ien T'ai School) postulates 10 Worlds, each containing each other (we sometimes see this in models of the Tree where each Sephira contains its own Tree). The Buddhist model begins at Hell (the “lowest” Life State) and is crowned by the Buddha World (the “highest”). However, with each World containing the others, we may access the Buddha World from Hell or any other World (and this calls to mind the statement that “Kether is in Malkuth but after another manner”).

 

The Buddha World (Supreme Enlightenment) as well as the Initiatory States “beneath it” (such as the world of the Bodhisattva, the World of the Voice-Hearer etc) also contain and make use of their own Hell, Animal and Human Worlds. Thus Nichiren wrote his well-known epistle “Earthly Desires are Enlightenment.” I will add that this isn't any sort of wild Zen approach. Nichiren Buddhism is Mahayana (and Nichiren had plenty of fiery words of condemnation for the Zen School). Rather, we come into an Illumination of 0=2 and 2=0. This is very different from being a one way ticket from suffering to White Out.


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djedi
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

It seems to me though there's an irresolvable contradiction between the two: Buddhism states that existence involves, and cannot be separated from, the woes of inevitable sorrow, suffering and therefore despair.  On the other hand Thelema, or The Book of the Law, specifically advises via Hadit through the voice of Aiwass that "existence is pure joy" and "that all the sorrows are but as shadows, they pass and are done" (II:9).

It seems to me that is a distinction of ethics, not ontology.

Posted by: @michael-staley

From what I have assimilated thus far of Buddhism, there is nothing like the Tree of Life.

Pratityasamutpada as expressed through the twelve nidanas, if arranged into a tree and not a wheel, is similar to the Tree of Life. 


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ignant666
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Posted by: @djedi

It seems to me that is a distinction of ethics, not ontology.

This sounds like one of these "it's such a fine line between clever and stupid" kind of statements.

Care to elucidate, for us thickos?


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dom
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Posted by: @djedi

 

Pratityasamutpada as expressed through the twelve nidanas, if arranged into a tree and not a wheel, is similar to the Tree of Life. 

and

 

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

I DO think there are some parallels between the Tree and Buddhist thought. For example: Nichiren Buddhism (emerging from the T'ien T'ai School) postulates 10 Worlds, each containing each other (we sometimes see this in models of the Tree where each Sephira contains its own Tree). The Buddhist model begins at Hell (the “lowest” Life State) and is crowned by the Buddha World (the “highest”). However, with each World containing the others, we may access the Buddha World from Hell or any other World (and this calls to mind the statement that “Kether is in Malkuth but after another manner”).

 

But where's The Gematria, the 777 type 'as within so without' "correspondences"or the practical rituals to evoke a Planetary Intelligence to smite an enemy or get a business loan?   Such things would be alien to Buddhists because they (ritual magic so on) perpetuate worldly involvement i.e. samsara.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @dom

Such things would be alien to Buddhists because they (ritual magic so on) perpetuate worldly involvement i.e. samsara. 

My reply above was to indicate that there ARE models within Buddhist tradition similar to the Tree of Life-and also to address the idea of Suffering as an after thought. The Tibetan Model of the Six Bardos is a bit more of a simpler expression of the 10 Japanese Worlds-but those Tibetans (Vajrayana) are no strangers to MAGIC or Sorcery (see the writings of Alexandra David-Neel for some intriguing accounts of this!).

 

Nichiren Buddhism (Mahayana) is not an escapist School. As I wrote above, the Gosho “Earthly Desires are Enlightenment” indicates how involvement in the world with our bodies, minds and desires can become fuel for and expression of the Buddha Nature.

 

The first noble truth will put one in the “Trance of Sorrow.” But this trance is one rung on a ladder which will ultimately be cast away when one reaches the higher ground (what might be called “No Ground”). It gets us moving in the right direction, you might say-but it is not an absolute statement of enduring fact-esp. for the Higher Mind (what might be called “No Mind”).

Posted by: @dom

where's The Gematria, the 777 type 'as within so without' "correspondences"or the practical rituals to evoke a Planetary Intelligence to smite an enemy or get a business loan?

Well, the Liturgy of Nichiren Buddhism evokes all the Spirits and Buddhas of the Gohonzon, including demons, elementals and the Sun Goddess.

A Nichiren Buddhist would have no issue with chanting for a business loan...and at an excellent interest rate!


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djedi
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Posted by: @ignant666

Care to elucidate, for us thickos.

Say there are two religions, or two schools of one religion. They have the same ontological or metaphysical framework for how the existence of something/everything arises e.g. the Tree of Life. One religion or school says existence is bad, the other says existence is good. But whether existence is judged to be good or bad, its process of arising is the same.

Rosenkrantz and Guildenstern are each making their own homunculus according to the same set of instructions. Rosenkrantz loves life and thinks he's doing the homunculus a favor by creating it, so it can also experience the joys of living. Guildenstern hates life and thinks he's being a real dickhead by forcing another creature to live. But no matter how they feel about the act, the action is the same.

The ethics is not integral to the ontology. Our favorite essay, The Three Schools of Magick, is the thelemic examination of this idea.

To say that two religions are irresolvably contradicted because they interpret the same ontology according to different ethics doesn't make sense. 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

It seems to me though there's an irresolvable contradiction between the two: Buddhism states that existence involves, and cannot be separated from, the woes of inevitable sorrow, suffering and therefore despair.  On the other hand Thelema, or The Book of the Law, specifically advises via Hadit through the voice of Aiwass that "existence is pure joy" and "that all the sorrows are but as shadows, they pass and are done"

Yes, there is a basic, fundamental premise upon which each paradigm is firmly rooted, and the two premesi are fundamentally opposed.

I find the Buddhist deal to be true. Desire = Sorrow.

I find the Thelemic joy to be abstract. Chemical joy is temporary, and so it is discounted. No matter how straight we straighten up our vehicle, changing reality just shovels more shit in. Perhaps the joyful scenario will be realized as a real continuum at the end of the war-torn Aeon, when everybody gets up to (at least) Tiphareth and can demonstate harmony & beauty; laping laughter and serene silliness.

So what?

So Buddhism suggests lack of (control of) desire through the rights (right thinking, right action, right etc). The rights constitute a pretty good definition we might interpret as "doing one's Will," so perhaps there's a common ground to be found above the differences on the lower planes.

Yeah, the Buddhists seem to skip a step (but not in Tibet), the one about the HGA and the Higher (Universal) Self. Well, it looks like what we western infidels call two steps might be missed, or skipped. Of course, nobody really gets a shortcut. Everybody has to include the whole spectrum of consciousness , or they don't get liberated.

Now there's nothing wrong with the direct path. All roads do not lead to Mecca or Boleskine - they lead to the Void. Some folks come in here (get born) with the inherent ability to connect to the Void without engaging any intermediate principle. This is probably due to their inherited Source Chi (DNA), which some people call past-lives. Other folks seem to need the intermediary principle, and some even need a guru, at least in the early stages.

These differences in people are completely accounted for in an analysis of their centers. Some have "defined" centers (fixed). Other have malleable centers (open). Everyone I've seen is a mixture of fixed and open centers, and hardly anyone is the same as the neighbor.

The point is - everybody starts somewhere, independent or dependent, but in The End they have to develop their own theory of the universe. 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

10 Worlds, each containing each other

Right on. Plus this thread is labeled The Ten Fetters of Buddhism. Even in science, the Monad (a "string")(Kether) is said to have no dimensions, but it oscillates in ten dimensions.

Yeah, I know, alternative views cite 22 dimensions or some other numbers that are so abstract I will leave it to the 5th ray folks to figure out.

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

we may access the Buddha World from Hell or any other World

In a hologram, each piece contains the ability to demonstrate the whole, the big picture from which it was fragmented.

 

 


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Tiger
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Unwilling to admit their incomprehension of a transcendent, non conceptual insight; lazy practitioners see discrepancies and become perplexed by contradictories, uninclined to balance understandings beyond their reach and reconcile the opposites.

Suffering is the word attributed to dukkha by missionary translators who were looking through lenses of going through life as ones cross to bear. The term dukkha does not have a one-word English translation and embodies diverse aspects of unsatisfactory conditioned experience that have been seen to Arise from wrong views; a lack of satisfaction a need to move on in incessant cyclic becoming; which in turn can be used to develop insight into the nature of whats behind it. The precious human life in this world system gives us a chance to practice higher spiritual evolution.

Upaya-kaushalya expedient means
Practitioners may use their own specific methods or techniques that fit the situation in order to gain enlightenment. Even eccentric Rituals that exercise skill in means, and unusual behaviors perfecting the ability to bring out the spiritual potentialities; opening eyes to the nature of conditioned existence may bring the practitioner closer to realization. The very misconceptions and properties of mundane existence can be used by practitioners to help themselves on the path.

If you want Tens
here; Ten demonesses of buddhism, Ten powers of buddhism, Ten stages of development in buddhism, Ten suchnesses, Ten factors,Ten Realms, Ten Worlds, Ten meditations of buddhism, Ten mysteries of buddhism, Ten mystic principles of buddhism, Ten general recommendations, etc

Now if you want to get into metaphysical space, a holographic unlocalised locus inhabited by interpenetrative multifaceted reflections and paroxysmal excitement, to extract a perceiving subject echoed in the interstices of perceived bodies grasped as real; one can always venture into Indra’s net.


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dom
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Posted by: @shiva

Right on. Plus this thread is labeled The Ten Fetters of Buddhism

 

 

The fetters as follows;

THE FOUR ATTACHMENTS;

Opinions, wrongly thinking that there is a permanent "I", worldly desires and Rituals.

 

THE FIVE HINDRANCES;

Laziness, worldly desire, ill will,anxiety and doubting the Buddha's attainment.

 

THE EIGHT WORLDLY CONCERNS;

Fame versus insignificance, praise versus blame, happiness versus suffering and worldly gain versus worldly loss.

 

In total then that's 17 fetters.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Tiger
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The expression in outward forms inoculated with metaphysics possessed with deep symbolical significance with ritual acts helping to induce certain correspondent states and as aids and vehicles of concentrated transcendental power is considered more of a magical teaching. The Philosophic Noble path Hinayanists not feeling the devotional impulse stops short of rites and the expansive teachings .


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Tiger
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Flap your wings;
peck the eyes, tear out the flesh,
eat,
leave the bones.


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @djedi

To say that two religions are irresolvably contradicted because they interpret the same ontology according to different ethics doesn't make sense. 

On the (level playing) field of duality, it does.  You are trying to transcend it by implying a higher level of interpretation; on the basis that the interpretation of everything is subjective, the assessment "universe good/universe bad" would not have an ontological point of reference if the need for it is going to be transcended - unless you're saying the universe can be good or bad (=existence joyful or sorrowful) at the same time, in which case time to put out the saucer of milk for Shrodinger's kitty, maybe?

Posted by: @djedi

The ethics is not integral to the ontology. Our favorite essay, The Three Schools of Magick, is the thelemic examination of this idea.

Who's this "Our" when they're at home?

Posted by: @tiger

If you want Tens
here; Ten ..., etc

... Ten little indians, which then become 9, all the way to 1(0)...  It's all rather basic isn't it?  I mean, if humans had three fingers on each hand and/or 3 toes on each foot, per'aps everyone'd be thinking in terms of base 6. (notwithstanding every number being infinite & of no difference)

I take it you were referring to the title of the OT there?

Posted by: @dom

In total then that's 17 fetters.

Oh, dear!  Time to change the title (and scrap all these Tens), then?

Posted by: @shiva

I find the Buddhist deal to be true. Desire = Sorrow.

I find the Thelemic joy to be abstract

Yes, abstract some of the time.  The joy refers to the union of Nuit and Hadit - the increase in information from the learned experience involved from their conjunction.  This is somewhat above the (emotional) experience of the human vehicle (broom broom) although it can be accessed holographically (and as above, so below) in the manner you described:

Posted by: @shiva

In a hologram, each piece contains the ability to demonstrate the whole, the big picture from which it was fragmented

It cannot be doubted that the human lot, on the whole, is the fundamental sorrow/despair (anicca) suggested, but there is nothing to say that this cannot be transcended by accessing & locking into this higher octave of being continuously experienced by Hadit just referred to, in which indeed existence is pure joy, and is the 'ground state' underlying everything.

Happy new year &

N Joy


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Shiva
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Posted by: @tiger

Unwilling to admit their incomprehension of a transcendent, non conceptual insight; lazy practitioners see discrepancies and become perplexed by contradictories, uninclined to balance understandings beyond their reach and reconcile the opposites.

Yes, this is called, in medical terms, "mental stress." It is triggered by doing more than one thing at a time in one's mind. In the corporate world, secretaries and assistants are expected to multi-task. When doing more than one thing at a time, the brainwave frequency rushes up past 12 Hz (cycles per second) into the beta realm.

Beta enables one to get a lot of things done, due to increased heat rate (more beats), increased blood pressure (more blood/chi), and some sort of adjustment in the delicate endocrine (hormone) system, all of which, together, decrease one's lifespan on Earth (premature death).

By the time the doctor starts giving you medication that you take longer than, say, 30 days, you are probably permanently mentally disabled. Then you can become a drive-by poster child here, or at Readit-Agape, or anywhere you choose. You can invent a new Qabalah, solve a puzzle, write a book about other people, or perform any one of the 10,000 performances.

Now, you were saying ...

Posted by: @tiger

The term dukkha does not have a one-word English translation and embodies diverse aspects of unsatisfactory conditioned experience that have been seen to Arise from wrong views; a lack of satisfaction a need to move on in incessant cyclic becoming

Oh, may the Lord save us! You have described Choronzon (carona-zone, the head) in full motion-action, running down the aisles of our churchly minds. Here, take one of these capsules, but only once a day, for the rest of your shortened life. Never mind that you will feel like you are dying and will want to stop taking your med. Never mind that one of the most common side effect of this med is suicide.

Posted by: @tiger

The precious human life in this world system gives us a chance to practice higher spiritual evolution.

Oh, Lord, thank you for saving us from the medication.

Posted by: @tiger

Practitioners may use their own specific methods or techniques that fit the situation in order to gain enlightenment.

I believe Frater Perdurabo, or was it The Master Therion, but not the demon Crowley, endorsed and suggested this method. The followers then slavishly imitated the Class D stuff, while others created their own rites.

Posted by: @tiger

Ten general recommendations, etc

Please correlate all your tens into Tables suitable for insertion into 777. Warning: You may become known as the leader of a school of thought.

Posted by: @tiger

one can always venture into Indra’s net.

Hallelujah! We've been saved.

Posted by: @dom

doubting the Buddha's attainment.

Ooh, that's a tricky one. Especially since there's been a whole string (see string theory and Kether) of Buddhas, Siddhartha being the most recent. I wonder if one doubts some, but "believes" in others, how tight the fetter might be? 


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dom
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Posted by: @shiva

Yes, this is called, in medical terms, "mental stress." It is triggered by doing more than one thing at a time in one's mind. In the corporate world, secretaries and assistants are expected to multi-task. When doing more than one thing at a time, the brainwave frequency rushes up past 12 Hz (cycles per second) into the beta realm.

...... decrease one's lifespan on Earth (premature death).

 

I've never been off work with stress meanwhile when others do drop out I'm left in work but with less resources trying to do the same tasks.    It's enough to nearly make me rant about "entitlement culture"...........but i don't .........for there lies the path of the anti-SJW.  Maybe when these stressed- out folk return I should inadvertently try to teach these folks about NLP CNS/brain-control techniques, yes, Christ would want me to do that instead. To Mega Therion OTOH would say nay, 'tis the Darwinian Law of Thelema, the people do not want freedom and besides  we must not protect the weak for it artificially  destroys the strong.

Whatever, you either have a functional service/business or you don't but this is one of the reasons why large/medium businesses go under to rivals for sure.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Tiger
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@Shiva
— Please correlate all your tens into Tables suitable for insertion into 777.

oh lordy tong; ok here’s a go.
Buddhism is the middle pillar.
So to simplify 10 gets reduced to the 7. Hows that for skillful means ?
7 chakras like the ageless wisdom of Indo-European k ék los, "wheel" and "cycle" Ancient Greek κύκλος The 7 celestial spheres, celestial orbs, seven classical planets, seven sacred luminaries.

1 the element of Spirit - Bodhicitta
2 The empress - Star of the Sea and foam-born Tara vajrayogini
3 Lust Leo - Chandali Tummo
4 The Sun —Amitāyu
5 The Tower - martial cha’an Bodhidharma
6 Foundation moon the passage from obscurity new moon to clarity full moon "great seal" "great imprint" "wisdom and emptiness interpenetrating - mahamudra
7 Sovereignty earth — again becoming precious human conception

Thanks for some exercise on the first day
Happy New Year !

May the conglomerate takeover of functional service/business for squeezing competition and underwriting as well as entitlement bailouts for too big to jail and corporate welfare; go under.


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Tiger
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i know its all over the place
a cyclic re vision conception rebirthing middle pillar
1 Bodicitta
2 Vajrayogini
3 Prajna paramita Sutra
4 Lotus Sutra
5 Bodhidarma
6 Mahamudra
7 again becoming precious human conception


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @tiger

correlate all your tens into Tables suitable

I thought the Tens had just been declared (ineffectively) Abrogate - as in

Posted by: @tiger

So to simplify 10 gets reduced to the 7. Hows that for skillful means ?

But according to dom's vacillating mercurial modifying update, maybe the 10 should simply get added to the 7?  To make the all-important (to the revised title) requisite seven-teen, I mean.  (But that in turn "reduces" to 8??)

<"Divide, add, multiply, subtract - and then remain utterly confused." - Lionel Snell>

It's enough to nearly make me rant about "entitlement culture"...........but i don't .........

So you don't nearly - thou rantest just that tiddly iddly bit? 

(But not exactly quite wu-wei yet though, izzit?)

Posted by: @domt, 

I should inadvertently try to teach these folks about NLP CNS/brain-control techniques, yes, Christ would want me

for a sunbeam!?

Posted by: @dom

we must not protect the weak for it artificially destroys the strong.

Can't have been all that strong then, can they?

Z Joy


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dom
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter
Posted by: @tiger

correlate all your tens into Tables suitable

I thought the Tens had just been declared (ineffectively) Abrogate - as in

Posted by: @tiger

So to simplify 10 gets reduced to the 7. Hows that for skillful means ?

But according to dom's vacillating mercurial modifying update, maybe the 10 should simply get added to the 7?  To make the all-important (to the revised title) requisite seven-teen, I mean.  (But that in turn "reduces" to 8??)

 

'Mercurial'? 

 

The OP was written in    

 

I changed it from 10 to 17 on 31/12/2020 12:20 pm

 

Haha.  The only 'mercurial' activity i see here is your crazy quest for attention. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @tiger

Thanks for some exercise on the first day
Happy New Year !

Thank you for your 7-staged takeover of the ten fetters.

Posted by: @tiger

7 again becoming precious human conception

Thanks for your further elucidation with words so foreign and funny-spelled that I must submit them to Artificial Intelligence (AI) for analysis in order to determine the degree of your punishment. No good deed goes unpunished, you see?

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

But according to dom's vacillating mercurial modifying update, maybe the 10 should simply get added to the 7? 

Oh, good(y), I can now envision a new dispensation wherein there are 17 degrees.

I'll stick with the 10=7 formula, though, because I invented it and Tiger rediscovered it, and 17 is such an odd numberthat the AI has become confused.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Can't have been all that strong then, can they?

No. Not that strong. Their weakness lies in mating with the dotters of men. The DNA gets diluted. That's how humanity rides the down-curve of the roller coaster leading to widespread stupidity, which is pretty much the state of affairs on this first day of a new year of unfolding horrors.

Posted by: @dom

Mercurial'? 

The merc was stricken through and cannot be used in your tortuous tort. Besides, "Thoth, Hermes, Mercury, Odin - by whatever name I call you, you are nameless ..."

Posted by: @dom

Haha.  The only 'mercurial' activity i see here is your crazy quest for attention. 

Oh gasp! Only the first day, and JB gets summoned to the Octagon.

 


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dom
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So the thread turned into number related OCD. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

So the thread turned into number related OCD.

The truth cannot manifest on Earth, not even in the digital forum etheric plane, but for a short time. It produces a hot zone, which blooms like a flower, then decentralizes. The decentralization is also known as fragmentation. It is the work of Choronzon, the disperser.

I believe the topic was the 10 fetters, and Tiger listed enough tens to fill 3 or 4 double-columned pages of the New 777. Yes, if we have any number, we can juggle it to fit the spheres, and if the number's big enough, we can jiggle them into the paths. And if the number's too big, we can reduce it to a number from 0 to 32.

Any explorations of how this path compares to that path are supposed to be approached from what they have in common, and the differences are supposed to be discarded. Says so in the Student's Manual.

I see two lists of 10 (fetters and spheres). I have a knowing faith (certainty, not doubt) that these two can be correlated, because I have done it in many fields before. But in this case I am too lazy to take up the correlating tablet. So I challenged Tiger to do it, and he took up the task by citing multiple mantras of ten that are available for cross-referencing ... all in order to discover the one, true spectrum of consciousness that is running through all the systems. It has no name or names, but people put names on it. Then they get around to comparing it with other systems' names, citing differences.

Then the wars start. Over religious concepts. Beliefs. Names. Lord help us.

The fetters for the Buddhists are the same as for the Thelemite ... and the Din too.

 


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dom
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Its simple, 8 world concerns, 5 hindrances and 4 attachments.  There's no need to try to squeeze these factors into a Cabbalah.  Having said that ,lol, you could attribute the 4 attachments to the elements as follows;

AIR opinions 

FIRE permanent self

WATER rituals 

EARTH worldly desire.

That leaves us with 13 but as worldly desire is in there again maybe we could take that out so we're left with 12.  Maybe choose laziness for Akasha and put the remaining 11 on the sephirah including Daath? 

Ah crap I just realized that the 8 worldly concerns are actually dualism so we can reduce them to 4.  That's actually 9 in total then.  Buddha says don't overthink....I'm outta here.

 

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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dom
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Actually (double posting) it neatly falls into place (apart from Binah maybe);

 

BINAH  Praise/blame

CHESED  Gain/Loss

GEBURAH Ill will

TIPARETH Happiness/suffering

NETZACH  Fame/insignificance

HOD Doubt about enlightenment

YESOD Anxiety

AKASHA  Laziness

AIR  Opinions

FIRE  Permanent self

WATER  Rituals

EARTH  Worldly desire

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @dom

'Mercurial'? 

As Shiva correctly pointed out I struck this through, you hypersensitive little flower shoot, you!

Posted by: @dom

The OP was written in  ...

I changed it ... on ...

The time factor didn't have a particular bearing on it: the OED defines "mercurial" as somebody

Subject to sudden or unpredictable changes of mood or mind.

I've obviously exposed a raw nerve touchy subject there.  Well, (as I've said before) if the cap fits...

Posted by: @dom

Haha.  The only 'mercurial' activity i see here is your crazy quest for attention. 

Talking of which, you don't seem to have started up a new thread topic here this week, yet? Heehee.

Posted by: @dom

Ah crap I just realized that the 8 worldly concerns are actually dualism so we can reduce them to 4.  That's actually 9 in total then.  Buddha says don't overthink....I'm outta here.

Like I (or the great sage Lionel Snell) said:

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

"Divide, add, multiply, subtract - and then remain utterly confused."

Round and round we go... "ever decreasing circles", what?  The same old same old.  "Meet the new boss same as the old boss", & all that.  I feel like I'm on repeat mode sometimes.  Happy new year.

Posted by: @dom

I'm outta here.

Actually ...

Back through the revolving door again so quickly (what was that about the need for attention again)?

Posted by: @dom

it neatly falls into place (apart from Binah maybe);

BINAH  Praise/blame

So, how would you explain about Binah having no duality (wherein opposites get resolved) then?

Attentively yours

N Joy


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @shiva

Oh, good(y), I can now envision a new dispensation wherein there are 17 degrees.

Bertiaux's OTO Antiqua has 16 degrees.  So according to Kenneth Grant's "creative One Above or Below is alright" Gematria, that'd be alright then.

Along with eighteen as well, naturally.

Fetters-freely yours,

N Joy


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

That leaves us with 13 but as worldly desire is in there again maybe we could take that out so we're left with 12. 

Thank you for illustrating my point about "jiggling."

Posted by: @dom

That's actually 9 in total then.

The nine vehicles of liberation.

Posted by: @dom

Buddha says don't overthink....I'm outta here.

Without overthinking, this thread is engaged to compare the heathen Buddhist system with the radical Thelema system. There are only three grades. We know what they are. In the Buddhist line, that would be (1) The Lay Practitioner, (2) The Monk or Nun, (3) The "B" Level (Bodhisattva, Buddha). Further division and subdivision and all acts leading to complexity will be denied.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

So, how would you explain about Binah having no duality (wherein opposites get resolved) then?

Binah is only non-dual in relation to the alternative ticking and tocking in the linear mind. In itself, Binah is one-half of the 0=2 configuration. Chuck-man is the other half. It's called cosmic dualism, or some other strange name that is made-up.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Along with eighteen as well, naturally.

You go too far and count too high. I can only handle numbers that are 13 or below. So I have to reduce 18 to 9 (1+8=9), which is fine by me because there are 9 vehicles of liberation. This can be reduced to 3 triads, so we;re back in AL again, where there are but three grades, and my mind can rest (assured).

 


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @shiva

Binah is only non-dual in relation to the alternative ticking and tocking in the linear mind. In itself, Binah is one-half of the 0=2 configuration. Chuck-man is the other half. It's called cosmic dualism, or some other strange name that is made-up.

From that perspective, you are correct.  Advance beyond Go and collect your $200 on the way round.  Leaping in as you did though, I was hoping dom would have answered instead but by "indulging" him you have saved him the headscratching trouble bother and done the deed in lieu.  I'm sure he will be everso grateful to you for letting him off the necessity and by so doing preventing the fearful possibility of becoming snared upon the horns of a potential Gotcha...

That which must be avoided at all costs!

N Joy


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dom
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@ Shiva;

 Malkuth as 4 attachments and worldly desire as Akasha.  That leaves us with the rest of the hindrances and worldly concerns filling the sephirah right up to Binah.  The craving for praise and the aversion to it's opposite ie blame must relate to Binah as the others fit neatly. For example Fame for Netzach and ill-will for Geburah and doubt (overthinking) for  Hod.

 

Neat huh?  Slap my back then.  Geddit?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Posted by: @dom

Neat huh?  Slap my back then.  Geddit?

Yes, I Goddit. A Nice arrangement.

But with 4 at the bottom, and 7 more required to reach Binah, that's 11, and I thought there were but 10 fetters. I would be concerned if I took this seriously.

"Slapping the Guru" is not an act of attack, but a farewell. "Thanks, Guru," the departing Chela says, as he slaps the Guru on the back and walks out of the Ashram.

 


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @shiva

"Thanks, Guru," the departing Chela says, as he slaps the Guru on the back and walks out of the Ashram

"not letting the door bang him/her on the way out" ? 

Slap-happily yours,

N Joy


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dom
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Posted by: @shiva

 

Yes, I Goddit. A Nice arrangement.

But with 4 at the bottom, and 7 more required to reach Binah, that's 11, and I thought there were but 10 fetters. I would be concerned if I took this seriously.

"Slapping the Guru" is not an act of attack, but a farewell. "Thanks, Guru," the departing Chela says, as he slaps the Guru on the back and walks out of the Ashram.

 

Forget the OP's original title, I suggest that you just focus on the 8 worldly concerns, the 4 attachments and the 5 hindrances and how I modified it and got it into the TOL.

Go to my original work-out earlier in thread.  It's 5 in Malkuth not 4 because we use Akasha.  Also we made the 5 hindrances into 4 because 'worldly desire' they said was a hindrance but they included it in attachments also.   I don't see the use of having it in both sections. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

"not letting the door bang him/her on the way out" ? 

No banging involved. The door is held firmly open by attendants who are flinging rose petals and singing, "To On, to On!" It sounds like t'wan, t'won, but don't be fooled).

 


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @dom

Forget the OP's original title,

I thought we [=most of us] already had?

Posted by: @dom

I suggest that you just focus on the 8 ... the 4 ... and the 5

Yeah, yeah, gotcha ... 17.  We know already, already...

Posted by: @dom

I don't see the use of having it in both sections. 

Naw, naw, nor do I either!

Everly decreasing circularitily yours

N Joy

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I thought we [=most of us] already had?

Forgetting the thread's title is a capital offense threatened by dom on many ocassions. Now I'm confused again. Wan't there an issue about Mercury?

 


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dom
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I thought we [=most of us] already had?

Forgetting the thread's title is a capital offense threatened by dom on many ocassions. Now I'm confused again. Wan't there an issue about Mercury?

 

Confused? Why?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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christibrany
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@jamiejbarter

 

Does he lump them into 3 'major grades' [made up of smaller ones] like the OTO and A.:.A.:. but with one extra cherry on top?


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Shiva
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Posted by: @christibrany

one extra cherry on top?

Yes. It is the Ain realm. 


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christibrany
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@shiva

 

Which explains for one way why on ye olde scrolls of 777 The Yechida, Chia, and Neshmah are assigned values on the key scale of 1 2 3 in 'existence' but Ain, Ain Soph and Ain Soph Aur all only get 0. And stuff only gets dense down in 10

 

Question then becomes.  Does 'one' ever reach the Ain level, even after body death. there is no one there. 


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Posted by: @christibrany

there is no one there. 

See any of the following  terms: Adi, Ati, Rigpa, Shivatmadarshana, Nuit, Dzogchen.

There is somebody there. It is the realm of primordial consciousness, wherein "Adi" knows "I Am," but nothing else. There is consciousness at all the levels, including the highest.

In terms of Ain (without Soph or Aur), this would be nirvana, void of everything. With Soph and Aur thrown in, somebody arises (you, me, Los, RTC), and the goal of Adi-yoga or Dzogchen, etc, is to get back to this state. This transcends most of the concepts of Thelema, except for Nuit, who is the representative of that realm ("The Queen of infinite Space").

 


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @shiva

Binah is only non-dual in relation to the alternative ticking and tocking in the linear mind. In itself, Binah is one-half of the 0=2 configuration. Chuck-man is the other half. It's called cosmic dualism, or some other strange name that is made-up.

Hello everyone, I am happy to have found this community and these great discussions. As I have "converted" somewhat from a life long Western Tradition initiate to a Tantric Dharma initiate–this is a meaningful topic for me so I hope no one minds if I play with you all here for fun and practice.

For mysef, I am not quite so sure we arrive at "cosmic dualism" here, the "non-duality" of the Tree of Life is Binah, Chockmah, and Keter. The supernals are Three, not two, so the duality itself is partially the illusion. Keter is the absorption of Chockmah and Binah, like the Tao is the absorption of Yin and Yang.

There is no objective reality where there is an isolated "binah" sphere somewhere that is opposite a "Chockmah" sphere that is objectively independent.

In tantra initiations, we learn too that chackras themselves are created, not truths that are discovered but truths that are generated by practitioners.

The mind below the supernal sees only two, the enlightened mind above the supernals sees no-thing, but count as "three, not two".

Three is a magick number in both east and the west 🙂

Dharma tantra or Dharma magick is concerned with the union of compassion and wisdom. To translate this on the tree alchemically, we look at wisdom being the fulfillment of the supernals while united with compassion below the tree in Tipereth, or the macrocosm uniting with the microcosm in Tipharet which is the absorption of sephirot 4 - 10 alchemically speaking.

By alchemically speaking I mean psychologically. My gematria and tree of life knowledge is a bit rusty, so I am only referencing the psychological elements and not arriving at this through number or analytics.

FUN STUFF: Can't recall the work now, but I have seen some evidence of Shakyamuni Buddha actually coming from a Hebrew lineage! The Shakya clan was one of the tribes of Israel that worshiped the "sun God" and I believe this clan left the middle east a few hundred years before the historical Buddha was born.

It is conceivable that perhaps Shakyamuni was learned in Hebrew "magick" which is identical to tantra in so many ways, and from this school resolved the contradictions of the Hindu tribal religions at the time. More fun to think about is there is lots of historical evidence of Buddhism making its way into Greece by 100BC, so while there is no evidence of any influence of Buddhism on the Christian mystics, it is conceivable that Buddha's message of compassion invigorated not just eastern thought but influenced the Gnostics as well.


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sangewanchuck56
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As you may know Crowley cited the Buddhist concept of Nirvana as a goal every initiate is bound for. 

Crowley's take on Buddhism and Yoga is a bit awry from my POV. He was initiated into Thereveda Buddhism, which is the really orthodox and very non magical school of Buddhism.

Nirvana is only the goal in that particular school. Nirvana is not the goal of the tantric initiates, but rather the avoidance of Nirvana as a part of the Bodhisattva vow.

Strangely, when he received Liber AL, he was probably one of the very few Buddhists in the west, yet Thelema while bearing no similarity to Thereveda Buddhism shows remarkable similarities to Vajrayana Buddhism.

 


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sangewanchuck56
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What didn't occur to me , fully, was that Buddhism, although employed by AC in his system, it is Old Aeon.

Specifically Theraveda Buddhism, not Maitrayana or Vajrayana Buddhism.


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sangewanchuck56
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This, despite Buddhism being ritually cursed in The Book of the Law! (as in III:53, where RHK “tears out the flesh of the Buddhist”).

Liber Al vel Legis is a tantra written in twilight language. The Dharma tantric would have no problems with this, some of the tankas of Tibetan show far worse and far more violent imagery!


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Posted by: @azidonis

Sometimes it takes a bit of mathematical fiddling.

Only sometimes? I still havent found a school that agrees on the assignments of another school. I think it is all just mathematical fiddling beyond a certain point, actually. I can count 1-10, but I can also count 0-9, and still count the same number of units.


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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

The Buddha World (Supreme Enlightenment) as well as the Initiatory States “beneath it” (such as the world of the Bodhisattva, the World of the Voice-Hearer etc) also contain and make use of their own Hell, Animal and Human Worlds

The worlds, sometimes counted as 5, other times as 6 (and no reason one could not count more but still stay within the same realms of experiential understanding from my POV) must place the "human realm" in the middle, with the realm of hell beings and hungry spirits, then animals, being below. Above human are the "Demi-god" realms and "God and Goddess" realms.

In the tantras this is important because spiritual evolution can only occur through the transmutation of suffering as a state of being into "loving kindness" as a state of being that exalts itself in nirvana and even above nirvana in non dual enlightenment. (nirvana itself is still apart of the illusion of duality)

This work can only happen in the human realm because we experience suffering here, where there are higher worlds above human, suffering is not experienced so the dharma becomes forgotten, eventually.

These worlds in Buddhism are only the realms of re-incarnation. There are Buddhist realms and Bodhisattva realms that are above these worlds and these worlds are created when one achieves 10th level Bodhisattava (there are 10 levels of Bodhisattva, hmmm) or when we achieve Buddhahood.

Everyone has "BuddhaNature" which is = True Will

When we eventually achieve Buddhahood, which is our true nature, it is as if we get huge budgets to create the universe or realm of our own design 🙂


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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @christibrany

one extra cherry on top?

Yes. It is the Ain realm. 

In Tibetan Dharma traditions, Ain and Ain Soph are Sunyata, pure emptiness. Emptiness (not the best translated word into English imho) is discovered within Nirvana. Emptiness is the only "goal" to put it in crude terms, not Nirvana or Keter in those traditions.

I'm assuming y'all already know all this, I am just adding my notes to the thread as my own practice. I hope I am not man xplaining yikes :/


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I hope no one minds if I play with you all here for fun and practice.

Well, nobody will (probably mind), but you have to play by the rules (The Guidelines). You have just made seven (7) posts in a row. This is known as "serial posting." It is fer-bidden.

Sometimes we forget something and need to post twice. Thrice is pushing the envelope and may require a notarized statement as to why one is running on. Fourthwise is beyond the envelope and is a remindable offense. With seven (7!) sequential posts, you may have broken some record.

I haven't read your seven (7) Letters to the Philistines yet, but I will attempt to translate them in order to see whether you're to be congratulated or flogged.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

The supernals are Three, not two

But one of them is both the precursor of the other two, and well as their synthesis. We find their (the three) reflection down at micro level as the Electron, Proton, and Neutron.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Thelema ... shows remarkable similarities to Vajrayana Buddhism.

Yes, some of us have noticed this.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I still havent found a school that agrees on the assignments of another school.

Aha. Then we are advised to dump the comparison of opposites and find the central core where things in common point to the one true spectrum of consciousness that goes by no name.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

there are higher worlds above human, suffering is not experienced

You are now moving onto shaky ground. Praeterhuman entities and states are subject to discussion, argument, and fisticuffs. You will need to provide proof of Oz, Valhalla, Paradise, or Heaven before you can state "There are ..." and get away with it.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

When we eventually achieve Buddhahood, which is our true nature, it is as if we get huge budgets to create the universe or realm of our own design 🙂

And this (^) statement is based on your readings? What you have been told? Or your own direct experience?

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I'm assuming y'all already know all this

Some of us'all know this. Others are obsessed with counting digits and solving puzzles.  Most, if not all, descriptions of "states" that lie outside the border of the linear mind require an opposite to be included - if it's to be anywhere near the truth of the matter.

 


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @shiva

Well, nobody will (probably mind), but you have to play by the rules (The Guidelines). You have just made seven (7) posts in a row. This is known as "serial posting." It is fer-bidden.

Sometimes we forget something and need to post twice. Thrice is pushing the envelope and may require a notarized statement as to why one is running on. Fourthwise is beyond the envelope and is a remindable offense. With seven (7!) sequential posts, you may have broken some record.

I haven't read your seven (7) Letters to the Philistines yet, but I will attempt to translate them in order to see whether you're to be congratulated or flogged.

Well I was originally going to go for ten (10!) posts in a row to honor the theme of the discussion, and all ten (10) were going to perfectly somehow spontaneously magically align with the ten (10) sephirot of the tree of life so I am glad I stopped while ahead and my sincere (truly) apologies for barreling in here like a drunk rodeo clown. No, havent been drinking.

 

Really nice to meet you and thx for the sharing your notes.

 

Posted by: @shiva

But one of them is both the precursor of the other two, and well as their synthesis. We find their (the three) reflection down at micro level as the Electron, Proton, and Neutron.

 

We share a few of the same notes

 

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56
Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I still havent found a school that agrees on the assignments of another school.

Aha. Then we are advised to dump the comparison of opposites and find the central core where things in common point to the one true spectrum of consciousness that goes by no name.

 

Sure, good. 👍 I once wasted a number of years chasing numbers, only leads to what you just describe after you realize all numbers are infinite. 

 

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56
Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

there are higher worlds above human, suffering is not experienced

You are now moving onto shaky ground. Praeterhuman entities and states are subject to discussion, argument, and fisticuffs. You will need to provide proof of Oz, Valhalla, Paradise, or Heaven before you can state "There are ..." and get away with it.

Hmmm, I'm only describing the worlds in Tantric Buddhism, it is not a controversial claim to describe how the teachings are described by the Tantrics! Next I am relating these teachings in TB to Western stuff (kaballah, alchemy, etc).

I make no claims for myself to others 

 

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

When we eventually achieve Buddhahood, which is our true nature, it is as if we get huge budgets to create the universe or realm of our own design 🙂

And this (^) statement is based on your readings? What you have been told? Or your own direct experience?

Based both on readings (which is same as "being told" I suppose) and experiential of my own Buddhanature and the buddha nature of others 🙂

Thx fer askin and thanks for the warm welcome, truly.

 

Im going to shuffle off and read the forum rules and stuff 

Goodbye for now!

 


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