Thelema and Transge...
 
Notifications
Clear all

Thelema and Transgender Issues  

Page 1 / 3
  RSS

Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
06/12/2011 5:34 pm  

93,

Since the topic has come up (at a rather inopportune time, I might add), and it will not die down in the context in which it is presented (Babble-On Box), it really deserves a thread.

Since there are obviously varying stances on the issue, here it is...

On April 28, 2007 I made the following comments in this thread:

93,

It is my personal opinion that "trans gender and transsexuals" obviously have a conflict with their own Wills. Why would a Spirit pick a suitable male or female body only to have one's animal desires and distorted judgment flop it around to be something it isn't?

Like I said, it's my opinion and it doesn't make sense to me. I'm not the most handsome guy in the world, or the smartest (yada yada yada), but I'm proud of being me. I suppose transsexuals aren't proud to be themselves and so have to take on an alias and be someone else. I think it's filthy and pathetic.

However, while I may approve of their choice to be that way, I will defend their RIGHT to be that way if they so choose.

93 93/93,

Az

Reminder: The comment was made in 2007.

Last night, in the middle of one of my finals, I happen to look onto the Babble-On Box and see this :

einDoppelganger
06 Dec, 02:37 GMTeinDoppelganger: Wnyway, just ignore Azidonis, he is a bigoted little man - best ignored.
06 Dec, 02:38 GMTeinDoppelganger: http://www.lashtal.com/forum/index.php/topic,1825.msg13767.html#msg13767 this has to be the most fucked up hateful piece of shit posting I have ever read on this site.
06 Dec, 02:38 GMTeinDoppelganger: anyway...
06 Dec, 02:40 GMTeinDoppelganger: http://www.lashtal.com/forum/index.php/topic,1825.msg13767.html#msg13767
06 Dec, 03:05 GMTeinDoppelganger: http://tinyurl.com/728sq36 there, fixed it.

This was obviously an initial reaction. It may have been many of your initial reactions. Was such personal attack a necessary displayed reaction, on a event that occurred over 4 years ago? If so, then that's fine I deserved it, but if not, I would like an apology. There are other methods of presenting such information that could have caused a lot less drama than has occurred because of it.

The conversation ensued in the Babble-On Box, presumably because the thread in question had been locked. ein, if you felt strongly enough about it sir, you could have created your own thread. Instead, we have the following, from the Babble-On Box...

Note, the structure of the Babble-On Box is to go UP, so that the newest post is always one the top. As you can tell by the time stamps, the conversation went on quite some time. I am simply not going to post and re-arrange the entire thing (max character limit for a post is 20,000).

Azidonis: New thread inc...
06 Dec, 16:32 GMTamadan-De: ..I'm away for the next week tho..
[...]
06 Dec, 03:12 GMTkidneyhawk: or Mama N as the case may be-!
06 Dec, 03:07 GMTkidneyhawk: and I DID enjoy (re) reading Papanick's reply!
06 Dec, 03:07 GMTkidneyhawk: "several thing shas"-yes, I'm not drinking and posting!
06 Dec, 03:07 GMTkidneyhawk: My own view on several thing shas certainly undergone revision in the years since I became a member of the site
06 Dec, 03:06 GMTkidneyhawk: In all fairness, e-D, I note that was posted several years back-and mayhap opinion or perspective has changed...
06 Dec, 03:05 GMTeinDoppelganger: http://tinyurl.com/728sq36 there, fixed it.
06 Dec, 02:40 GMTeinDoppelganger: http://www.lashtal.com/forum/index.php/topic,1825.msg13767.html#msg13767
06 Dec, 02:38 GMTeinDoppelganger: anyway...
06 Dec, 02:38 GMTeinDoppelganger: http://www.lashtal.com/forum/index.php/topic,1825.msg13767.html#msg13767 this has to be the most fucked up hateful piece of shit posting I have ever read on this site.
06 Dec, 02:37 GMTeinDoppelganger: Wnyway, just ignore Azidonis, he is a bigoted little man - best ignored.

In considering what being transgender is, ": of, relating to, or being a person (as a transsexual or transvestite) who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth ", we can easily see how being transgender is a type of identity. The overall question is, does assuming this identity assist or prevent one from both discovering and doing one's True Will?

It is not a cut and dry question. It never has been. It was presented in 2007 not as a bigoted answer (which is how it was perceived), and I apologize for expressing it in that way. Had I known myself and the world a little better then, I hopefully would have. But in any case, it's not cut and dry.

These are some factors:

1. Discovering one's True Will
2. One's ability to properly the facilitate that Will
3. One's inability to properly facilitate that Will

I was simply making a statement from position number 3. It was a brash statement of a conclusion though, and not presented nearly as wellas it could have (and should have) been.

Position number 1, the True Will, is something unique to each individual. No individual can uncover the Will of another, except that individual himself/herself. In testing Position 1, we can see that in any case, the only current measurement for this, is to interview/observe transgender people doing their True Will. This will probably be found to be true. Feel free to present evidence.

Position numbers 2 and 3 are the on-off switches. Since every human has the ability to discover their True Will (wouldn't you agree?), being transgender should not make a difference in most cases, making a strong point for Position 2. In Position 3, however, we see that for some reason or another, being transgender has hindered people in the past from properly facilitating their Wills. This is the argument of Position 3.

Position 3 gets flack from a lot of factors. In the case of transgenders, they get a lot of flack from society. In some societies in this world, women are barely allowed to vote. How much longer then, in these countries, before women will become politicians? In such a case, a male changing to a female in order to fulfill his Will may not be the best idea. There are other examples of such things in this world, but Position 3 simply involves oppression. And it is a fact that this world if full of it.

As I said, I was looking at it from Position 3, from a state of oppression. For that, and for the way I presented said view, and my brash words, I apologize. (For those who might remember, during that time period I was in the U.S. Navy on a carrier over in the Gulf.) I no longer hold that view.

Let me be clear here. I do not personally like being transgender. Just the same, I do not like broccoli, nor would I like having a pencil shoved through my ear. I've gone to clubs in make-up before, and I personally did not like it. I have eaten broccoli before, and again, personally do not like it. I have never had a pencil shoved through my ear though, and subsequently have never been accused of murder.

What people do is their business. If I owed a company, I most certainly would hire the more qualified person, no matter what their gender identity was. If at work, or school, I work alongside people with varying gender identities, I have friends and family with varying gender identities, and I myself have a gender identity. We are all entitled to our own identity, however much society may currently oppress it (the "good fight"), and the Law of Thelema is designed to facilitate that function in humanity.

I hope this clears it up for some of you, and ein... thanks for bringing it to my attention.


Quote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
06/12/2011 7:07 pm  

Hey Az.  I hope this issue isn't distracting you from your finals.  I've said a few things in the past I can vividly recall and now wince over a little (maybe more than a little actually) but the past is another country and we were different people in it.  Just do your best now in your exams and wash the stain out (if needed) by being the best 'whatever your will is' that you can be.

Best of luck.  Look after yourself.  Eat and sleep properly.  And... sorry for sounding like your mum.  lol.

A. 


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
06/12/2011 7:18 pm  
"Dar" wrote:
Hey Az.  I hope this issue isn't distracting you from your finals.

That's what I get for looking at the Babble-On Box when taking a break from writing a paper. 🙂


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
06/12/2011 7:28 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
"Dar" wrote:
Hey Az.  I hope this issue isn't distracting you from your finals.

That's what I get for looking at the Babble-On Box when taking a break from writing a paper. 🙂

Yes!  Exactly!  Get your head down!  We'll see you later.  This stuff will wait and the moon will move into Taurus, and then people will blink and wonder 'what was all that about?'  🙂


ReplyQuote
einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
06/12/2011 9:18 pm  

actually DAR people say shit like this despite whatever astrological woo woo happens to be going on in the heavens. Also, its a hard fact of the internet - you say something, it stays here for all time pretty much... Sometimes things come back. I have said stupid shit myself -  big surprise.

Az, thanks for your post. I say all this hoping to share my point of view with you, not to be accusative or combative.

I dare say anyone who chooses to express a gender identity outside the generally accepted binary is most certianly closer to expressing their true will than one who remains in gender a role defined by the culture at large. The culture is full of bigoted folks who cannot muster the empathy to imagine there are life experiences outside their own firsthand knowledge and understanding. As a result of this kind of cultural attitude peoelp who transgress teh gedner divide are often met with ridicule, verbal abuse, and in far too many cases actual violence.
Transgender Day of Remembrance

Not expressing one's true will would be remaining in a social role merely to escape barbs, demeaning commentary, prejudice and violence. Gender Expression is not protected behavior in the same way as sexuality is in the USA.  People can and do lose the opportunity for gainful employment and housing based on their gender expression. Not only that but this demeaning commentary often becomes outright violence in many places and cases.

So I cannot see how a Thelemite wouldn't be disgusted by the vision of those who are merely expressing the most fundamental aspect of themselves being met with ridicule and violence bore from judaeo-christian ideals concerning gender normative behavior. I might point out that many cultures, from the Polynesian to the American First Nations (American Indians) had a space for a "third gender." Consistently this convention fell from esteem, to ridicule to outright banishment with the advent of Christian missionaries.

The usual arguments of "why would a spirit inhabit the wrong body" and "love yourself for who you are" often come up in these discussions, especially with well maning "spiritual" folks. Let me preemptively say that you cannot, in good conscious, tell anyone how to love themselves. It especially nasty when it is leveled toward a trans / queer / gay / etc person from one who is self identifies as straight or cis-gendered (cis-gendered is the opposite of trans*gender - one who's internal gender matches their physical sex). Such a person  lacks the experience of being queer, trans, gay, etc and is speaking from a place of privilege. The culture is set up to reflect their preconceptions of sex, gender, and sexuality and in most cases erases anyone who deviates from that norm.

Speaking from a place of privilege is not actual communication - its trying to subjugate a minority voice with a majority ideal. This is most likely not a conscious decision on the part of the speaker but it is the naked bones of whats happening. This line if "love yourself for who you are" is the same argument used by "anti gay restorative therapists" who claim that homosexuality can be cured with prayer and therapy! It is essentially "love yourself for who we say you shoudl be."

People who express their gender or sexuality in a culture that is largely hostile to such things are loving themselves, quite deeply. They love themselves more than the acceptance offered by a culture which would really rather see them dead.  Gay panic defense    Gwen Araujo

I think it is important to point out that "Wearing makeup to a club" isn't close to understanding the experience of one who is gender variant. Its merely a vestment and has nothing at all to do with the outward expression of an inner sense of self which 99% of people simply take for granted because their internal sense of self coincides with either their physical sex or with a socially accepted expression of how a particular gender present in polite society.

People see gender variance as an attack on established social norms they hold to be self-evident and untouchable; those being the norms of how men and women look and act and how they are defined (by their genitals). For many men there is an added panic that the Transwoman is somehow out to trick them into homosexual sex. Its a bizarre and blunt headed misconception but it is at the root of a lot of anti-transgender violence (and violence against feminine acting gay men).

So when you recognize how anti-trans bias is essentially borne from a desire to uphold a culturally established set of gender norms it begs the question why a Thelemite, nay an occultist in general would have issues at least being empathetic to the dignity of those would would choose to buck those "rules" for the sake of being true to their own sense of self.

Its all part of  a larger picture which has been mentioned before. I find a strange creeping conservationism among many Thelemites. Its a strange "straight male privilege"  where a heteronormative ideal seems to be the majority voice in Thelemic spaces. (Note that one need not be biologically male to help support a patriarchal standard in communication, I have seen it from all genders and voices.)

Magick is, by its nature about transgressing boundaries and thresholds. You cross over the male and female multiple times moving up the tree and the most important Spheres lie in the spaces between. The Alchemical Quinta Essentia (quintessence) was illustrated by the Androgyne, Baphomet displays the sexual characteristics of male and female and even old AC, who would be hard to class as "Transgender" in the modern sense most certianly crossed gendered norms.  An early lover was a professional female impersonator and AC fostered a feminine persona he called "Alice" for when he took his preferred place of the passive role in penetrative sex.

That's another thing, how many masculine identified sex magicians out there feel their butt pucker when I mention penetration? Do you truly understand the experience of the vessel, the cup, or you instinctively think is weak, passive, and inferior to the male? Really be honest with yourself in that - does the thought fill you with aversion because you think its somehow weak or betraying of masculinity? There is an entire way of seeing the world that does not involve wielding your Will like a massive cock and beating the universe into submission with it. That's a symptom of that heteronormative ideal  I was talking about. Are we to think this is inherent to the Thelemic formula? Is the will a penetrative force with the universe as its receptacle?

We live in a culture that has two genders - "male and not male."


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
06/12/2011 10:48 pm  
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
Also, its a hard fact of the internet - you say something, it stays here for all time pretty much... Sometimes things come back. I have said stupid shit myself -  big surprise.

The next time I see you do it, I will be sure to place it in the Babble-On Box, including expletives.

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
I dare say anyone who chooses to express a gender identity outside the generally accepted binary is most certianly closer to expressing their true will than one who remains in gender a role defined by the culture at large.

I, for one, would absolutely love to see your data for this...

I'll get to the rest when I can.


ReplyQuote
einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
06/12/2011 11:34 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
I, for one, would absolutely love to see your data for this...

Sure.. as soon as you supply me with a chart of all Americans currently doing this "True Will." You know well this is a subjective matter and cannot be represented in a dataset. What you are asking for is a smokescreen to distract from the point of the posting which calls out of bigotry and privilege. In light of the fact there is no metric for this "true will" you want to measure; If you like we can compare suicide rates in LGBTQ youth from accepting families as opposed to those who are kicked out of the house. Or perhaps we can look at the number of transgender college graduates from more progressive areas of the country compared to the same data in overtly religious areas with less open attitudes. We could see how many children are born every year intersex or with ambiguous genitals. We could look at the growing shift to de-pathologize transsexuality from the DSM so the medical community no longer considers it pathology. Those are real datasets that can be measured. Your suggestion we correlate data on the "true will" is really just a way to use your concept of Thelema and the Will to disregard a minority with whom you have no experience.

An individual seeks to express themselves in a manner which they feel deeply moved is right for *them personally*. They do this despite being set upon with ridicule, danger, and mockery. They are "set upon by dog faced Demons" as Achad was in "Master of the Temple." That sounds like being dedicated to your will right there. No one said the culture would be accepting of your "true will." Nowhere is it written that your True Will should lead you down an easy path, well trimmed and free of thorns. You suggest a "man" wanting to live a more authentic gender presentation as female, when women lack the same privileges as men is a bad idea. You theorize this would prevent her from doing her true will - this statement shows me you have a very narrow utilitarian definition of what the so called "true will" might be. (It also suggests you accept sexism as a natural state of life, but we wont address that now...)  It does beg the question if a transgender man (a genetic female presenting a male) is OK in your worldview and well on his way to realizing that "true will."

The True Will is not some project you undertake hoping to meet with little resistance from society at large.  Paul Gauguin lived his true will despite profound social consequences and was made a Gnostic saint for it.  Living ones life in the gendered presentation of choice can be part of that process or it may be a step toward rectifying the self with the macrocosm. It can be a means to an end,  or a major step along the way. In a world unobsessed with the correlation between gender and genitals it wont matter and people will just get on with their will and not have to deal with the bigotry of the uninformed.

Look at what happened to AC himself! Crowley lived his will against all odds, ridicule, abuse, persecution, and dangers. You celebrate him but denigrate a man or woman** who's only transgression is to dare choose to present in society in a manner which deviates from your idea of how a person with a penis or a vagina should behave.

**Transgender applies to trans*men and trans*women. There are many folks on both sides of the gender spectrum and all sorts of places in between. Its unfortunate these discussions tend to be centered on the masculine who moves toward the feminine rather than the inverse. I think this is part and parcel to a patriarchal society; a society that so values masculinity it assumes all genetic women want to be male but cannot fathom the genetic man who abandons the masculine role.


ReplyQuote
Los
 Los
(@los)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2195
07/12/2011 12:15 am  

I could care less what Azidonis thinks about transgender people, but what I’m interested in is the claim that transgender people “obviously have a conflict with their own Wills.” I’m even more interested in his reasoning: coming off the “true act of magick” thread, I find it interesting that his objection to transgender people stems from belief in reincarnation. As he puts it:

It is my personal opinion that "trans gender and transsexuals" obviously have a conflict with their own Wills. Why would a Spirit pick a suitable male or female body only to have one's animal desires and distorted judgment flop it around to be something it isn't?

He clarifies this later in the “lack of female Thelemites” thread:

It is my opinion that the decision of a "Spirit" to enter into certain circumstances at birth is the first decision of life, and the first decision of the True Will in that life. I feel that males are supposed to be male and females are supposed to be female.

His objection is that one’s sex is selected by one’s soul prior to incarnation, and as a result, whether one is male or female is a necessary part of the True Will. As a result, any transexual individual (or whatever the accepted term is) must be – by definition, according to this argument – acting contrary to his or her True Will.

This is a perfect illustration of an idea that came up in the “true act of magick” thread: starting with false ideas about the universe – such as the idea that there are “spirits” that “incarnate” – leads you to false conclusions – such as the idea that being born a male means that it’s necessarily one’s True Will to always be a male or that being born a female means that it’s necessarily one’s True Will to always be a female.

And then, no matter how silly one’s premises or conclusions are, one can always throw up the blanket defense: “It’s just my opinion!” as if that magically makes one’s statements any less subject to critique.


ReplyQuote
einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
07/12/2011 12:28 am  
"Los" wrote:
...starting with false ideas about the universe – such as the idea that there are “spirits” that “incarnate” – leads you to false conclusions – such as the idea that being born a male means that it’s necessarily one’s True Will to always be a male or that being born a female means that it’s necessarily one’s True Will to always be a female.

And then, no matter how silly one’s premises or conclusions are, one can always throw up the blanket defense: “It’s just my opinion!” as if that magically makes one’s statements any less subject to critique.

Well put, Los. It surprises me to see this kind of superstitious approach to Thelema from someone who has always struck me as being somewhat scientifically minded. Its a common theme among magicians though, confusing the map for the territory or the model for the object. All models have flaws but you cannot see them when you become married to the model.

Its quite silly to see arguments backed up with talk of "spirits" and :incarnation" when there is neurological data on in utero hormonal fluctuations and their impact on the gender identity. There are studies on cross gender markers in the cat scans of transpeople and developmental psychologists have made huge leaps in the study of how our gender presentation is conceived in early childhood. These are real measurable things that are far more worthy of consideration than "woo woo spirits jumping into your ghost baby shell." I find this tendency of superstision to be distatseful at best, dangerous at worst. Its all fine to apply a subjective model to yourself but wen you take that same thing and use it to judge the actions and merits of others you are in the same playground as Volkish magic, phrenology, and racial mysticism.

It also strikes me that the body of Thelemic writings (especially  Liber OZ) would circumvent any arguments people had regarding the absurd concept that choosing so subjugate your own will to socially accepted norms will somehow allow you to better execute your will...

The sacred path of least resistance?  :-


ReplyQuote
einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
07/12/2011 1:11 am  

Speaking of gender variance and AC its worth noting that the modern conception of  "homosexuality" (first coined in 1869) differs from how we see it today. The Victorian concept of homosexuality  was kind of a hybrid between gender variance and homosexual attraction. To the Victorians a homosexual occupied a third gender and was termed a Uranianwhich implied the Victorian belief that a female spirit inhabited the male body. Unfortunately, this is a narrow view by modern standards but it does illustrate how in an interesting flip of Azidonis' model (or vice versa in the case of some lesbians).  Oscar Wilde himself would refer, without euphemism, to his reverence for "Uranian love." I do not think the Victorians felt that this was a question of incarnation, rather an antiquated method of explaining what modern psychology terms as the difference between sex (physical) and gender( psychological).

The model is antiquated and erases or simply ignores many sexual and gender identities we now recognize, but it is worth noting.
I'd like to know how Crowley saw his own sexuality and the role "Alice" played in his self image. The sexual revolution was in its infancy and authors like Magnus Hirschfeldand Edward Carpenter(an important influence on Victor Neuberg) were upsetting the commonly held conceptions of men and women and their biologically determined roles. For the first time hetronormative Christian culture was confronted with an upsurge of both spiritual as well as scientific justifications for breaking down gender and sexual "norms."


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
07/12/2011 1:55 am  
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
actually DAR people say shit like this despite whatever astrological woo woo happens to be going on in the heavens.

Actually, it's funny that the very first sentence you say in a thread created because you condemned someone's 4 year old views seeks to condemn still another person for sharing their own. But as this elongated response will show, you have no problem sharing your own, for which you seem to expect marvelous treatment and acceptance. (And here I thought you were going to contribute to a thread without trying to belittle someone, as usual.)

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
Also, its a hard fact of the internet - you say something, it stays here for all time pretty much... Sometimes things come back. I have said stupid shit myself -  big surprise.

Been addressed. Time reveals all things.

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
Az, thanks for your post. I say all this hoping to share my point of view with you, not to be accusative or combative.

That's fine, as long as you don't do this...

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
I dare say anyone who chooses to express a gender identity outside the generally accepted binary is most certianly closer to expressing their true will than one who remains in gender a role defined by the culture at large.

Your first "view" is entirely subjective, and entirely a statement of your own personal bias. It's quite simply an unprovable, and therefore bullshit, claim. Aside from that, let's look at the facts: out of the very long list of "saints, sufis, swammis, sanyasins, bodhisattvas, etc. ad nauseum", very few of them have assumed transgender identities. I'm not saying it isn't possible to discover one's True Will while assuming a transgender identity, just that if you are looking at evidence to support your view, you have to also look at the evidence against it.

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
The culture is full of bigoted folks who cannot muster the empathy to imagine there are life experiences outside their own firsthand knowledge and understanding.

I agree. This culture is also full of people who are so busy trying to imagine the mind of a 'bigot' they cannot muster the empathy to understand the experiences what may have led one to 'bigotry'.

Why you are continuing to point fingers I am unsure. But we can keep doing this...

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
As a result of this kind of cultural attitude peoelp who transgress teh gedner divide are often met with ridicule, verbal abuse, and in far too many cases actual violence.
Transgender Day of Remembrance

This is sad, and I do sympathize. But first you are saying people who assume a transgender role are "closer to expressing their True Will", and here you are saying that even so, they tend to kill themselves, after being met by resistance from our primitive modern culture. These two ideas seem very far apart, to me.

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
Not expressing one's true will would be remaining in a social role merely to escape barbs, demeaning commentary, prejudice and violence. Gender Expression is not protected behavior in the same way as sexuality is in the USA.  People can and do lose the opportunity for gainful employment and housing based on their gender expression. Not only that but this demeaning commentary often becomes outright violence in many places and cases.

Okay, I see where you are tying it in. It is obvious that you have decided to put your efforts into helping people who assume transgender roles meet with a fair acceptance in this world. Such a cause needs good champions, and it's nice to hear you are stepping up and doing what you can to help them break the bonds of oppression that have enslaved their lives over the years. Good for you.

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
So I cannot see how a Thelemite wouldn't be disgusted by the vision of those who are merely expressing the most fundamental aspect of themselves being met with ridicule and violence bore from judaeo-christian ideals concerning gender normative behavior.

I can't see how anyone couldn't be disgusted at reading what a Thelemite should or should not be disgusted by. Again, it's good to see that those who need a champion have one in you, ein. Have you joined any foundations, held any rallies, donated any money to this cause? That information would be helpful, in case there are others like you on these boards, looking for a way to meet with like minds on the subject.

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
I might point out that many cultures, from the Polynesian to the American First Nations (American Indians) had a space for a "third gender." Consistently this convention fell from esteem, to ridicule to outright banishment with the advent of Christian missionaries.

The Christians to the Lions!

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
The usual arguments of "why would a spirit inhabit the wrong body" and "love yourself for who you are" often come up in these discussions, especially with well maning "spiritual" folks. Let me preemptively say that you cannot, in good conscious, tell anyone how to love themselves.

They are false arguments. Every man and woman has the right do assume the gender identity of his/her own Will.

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
It especially nasty when it is leveled toward a trans / queer / gay / etc person from one who is self identifies as straight or cis-gendered (cis-gendered is the opposite of trans*gender - one who's internal gender matches their physical sex). Such a person  lacks the experience of being queer, trans, gay, etc and is speaking from a place of privilege. The culture is set up to reflect their preconceptions of sex, gender, and sexuality and in most cases erases anyone who deviates from that norm.

You continue to blame the culture, but I assure you, every last one of us has been oppressed by modern culture in some shape, form or fashion, and many of us have been left with feelings similar to those described by people under the scrutiny you are pointing out. Everyone suffers.

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
Speaking from a place of privilege is not actual communication - its trying to subjugate a minority voice with a majority ideal. This is most likely not a conscious decision on the part of the speaker but it is the naked bones of whats happening. This line if "love yourself for who you are" is the same argument used by "anti gay restorative therapists" who claim that homosexuality can be cured with prayer and therapy! It is essentially "love yourself for who we say you shoudl be."

It's balderdash, I agree.

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
People who express their gender or sexuality in a culture that is largely hostile to such things are loving themselves, quite deeply. They love themselves more than the acceptance offered by a culture which would really rather see them dead.  Gay panic defense    Gwen Araujo

Again, another good reason for them to have a champion, ein. I'm glad you volunteered.

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
I think it is important to point out that "Wearing makeup to a club" isn't close to understanding the experience of one who is gender variant. Its merely a vestment and has nothing at all to do with the outward expression of an inner sense of self which 99% of people simply take for granted because their internal sense of self coincides with either their physical sex or with a socially accepted expression of how a particular gender present in polite society.

That's great. However, you seem to imply that since I haven't actually undergone a sex change operation, the experience was somehow meaningless.

How many times do you have to eat food that doesn't taste good to you, and how much of it do you have to eat, before you know you don't want to eat more of it?

While I agree that many of your points carry some validity, I absolutely do not agree that I should go get a sex change just so I can "understand the other side", or "have empathy". If that is the case, you should come write my finals papers for me, so you can "empathize".

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
People see gender variance as an attack on established social norms they hold to be self-evident and untouchable; those being the norms of how men and women look and act and how they are defined (by their genitals). For many men there is an added panic that the Transwoman is somehow out to trick them into homosexual sex. Its a bizarre and blunt headed misconception but it is at the root of a lot of anti-transgender violence (and violence against feminine acting gay men).

This is fine. I don't see transgender roles as an attack on anything. Maybe the current culture we keep talking about does. Again, I'm glad the community has a voice in you. It's well needed.

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
So when you recognize how anti-trans bias is essentially borne from a desire to uphold a culturally established set of gender norms it begs the question why a Thelemite, nay an occultist in general would have issues at least being empathetic to the dignity of those would would choose to buck those "rules" for the sake of being true to their own sense of self.

If that's how the people want to live their lives, that's how they want to live their lives. Who is anyone to say how another should live their lives?

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
Its all part of  a larger picture which has been mentioned before. I find a strange creeping conservationism among many Thelemites. Its a strange "straight male privilege"  where a heteronormative ideal seems to be the majority voice in Thelemic spaces. (Note that one need not be biologically male to help support a patriarchal standard in communication, I have seen it from all genders and voices.)

I have no idea what you are talking about here.

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
Magick is, by its nature about transgressing boundaries and thresholds. You cross over the male and female multiple times moving up the tree and the most important Spheres lie in the spaces between. The Alchemical Quinta Essentia (quintessence) was illustrated by the Androgyne, Baphomet displays the sexual characteristics of male and female and even old AC, who would be hard to class as "Transgender" in the modern sense most certianly crossed gendered norms.  An early lover was a professional female impersonator and AC fostered a feminine persona he called "Alice" for when he took his preferred place of the passive role in penetrative sex.

If you paid for a sex change each time you visited a sephira off the middle pillar, you would be broke and full of scars...

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
That's another thing, how many masculine identified sex magicians out there feel their butt pucker when I mention penetration? Do you truly understand the experience of the vessel, the cup, or you instinctively think is weak, passive, and inferior to the male? Really be honest with yourself in that - does the thought fill you with aversion because you think its somehow weak or betraying of masculinity? There is an entire way of seeing the world that does not involve wielding your Will like a massive cock and beating the universe into submission with it. That's a symptom of that heteronormative ideal  I was talking about. Are we to think this is inherent to the Thelemic formula? Is the will a penetrative force with the universe as its receptacle?

Been there, done that. Maybe some other guys haven't. Me personally, it didn't do anything for me. Zero, nothing, nadda. There was therefore no reason to continue that journey.

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
We live in a culture that has two genders - "male and not male."

Kind of cliche'. Where'd you pick that up from?

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
Speaking of gender variance and AC its worth noting that the modern concepts of  "homosexuality" (first coined in 1869) differs from how we see it today. The Victorian concept of homosexuality  was kind of a hybrid between gender variance and homosexual attraction. To the Victorians a homosexual occupied a third gender and was termed a Uranianwhich implied the Victorian belief that a female spirit inhabited the male body. Unfortunately, this is a narrow view by modern standards but it does illustrate how in an interesting flip of Azadonis' model (or vice versa in what we would term today as butch lesbian).  Oscar Wilde himself would refer, without euphemism, to his reverence for "Uranian love." I do not think the Victorians felt that this was a question of incarnation, rather an antiquated method of explaining what modern psychology terms as the difference between sex (physical) and gender( psychological).

Who is Azadonis and what is this 'model' you speak of?

The ancient Greeks used to use their wives for bearing children, and young boys whom they "tutored" for sexual pleasure and even love. That paradigm doesn't really work much today. It's just another example of cultures changing, I suppose. If you want the future culture to reflect your views on transgender equality, as I said, it's a good cause to champion.

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
The model is antiquated and erases or simply ignores many sexual and gender identities we now recognize, but it is worth noting.
I'd like to know how Crowley saw his own sexuality and the role "Alice" played in his self image. The sexual revolution was in its infancy and authors like Magnus Hirschfeld and Edward Carpenter (an important influence on Victor Neuberg) were upsetting the commonly held conceptions of men and women and their biologically determined roles. For the first time hetronormative Christian culture was confronted with an upsurge of both spiritual as well as scientific justifications for breaking down gender and sexual "norms."

Oh yes. Crowley had no qualms about sexuality. That much is certain.


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
07/12/2011 1:57 am  
"Los" wrote:
I could care less what Azidonis thinks about transgender people, but what I’m interested in is the claim that transgender people “obviously have a conflict with their own Wills.” I’m even more interested in his reasoning: coming off the “true act of magick” thread, I find it interesting that his objection to transgender people stems from belief in reincarnation. As he puts it:

It is my personal opinion that "trans gender and transsexuals" obviously have a conflict with their own Wills. Why would a Spirit pick a suitable male or female body only to have one's animal desires and distorted judgment flop it around to be something it isn't?

He clarifies this later in the “lack of female Thelemites” thread:

It is my opinion that the decision of a "Spirit" to enter into certain circumstances at birth is the first decision of life, and the first decision of the True Will in that life. I feel that males are supposed to be male and females are supposed to be female.

His objection is that one’s sex is selected by one’s soul prior to incarnation, and as a result, whether one is male or female is a necessary part of the True Will. As a result, any transexual individual (or whatever the accepted term is) must be – by definition, according to this argument – acting contrary to his or her True Will.

This is a perfect illustration of an idea that came up in the “true act of magick” thread: starting with false ideas about the universe – such as the idea that there are “spirits” that “incarnate” – leads you to false conclusions – such as the idea that being born a male means that it’s necessarily one’s True Will to always be a male or that being born a female means that it’s necessarily one’s True Will to always be a female.

And then, no matter how silly one’s premises or conclusions are, one can always throw up the blanket defense: “It’s just my opinion!” as if that magically makes one’s statements any less subject to critique.

Yet another thread I posted in, and in fact created, that you could have chosen to stay out of. Who's following who?

Oh, and by the way... your measurements are off again, as usual.


ReplyQuote
einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
07/12/2011 2:42 am  

Azidonis: You dont need to "get a sex change" to understand that you have not experienced life as a gender variant person. Therefore to cast judgment on transpeople and their ability to spiritually attain is just nasty and uninformed. You are making a judgment based on your own experience as if your experience is more valid than another. This is where the privilege comes in! I dont care if you don't want to express a gender identity other than your genetic sex.  I don't devalue your cis-gendered identity! But don't try and suggest that those who do identify other than the gender binary or those who identify as other than their birth assigned sex are somehow deluded or spiritually inferior.

I'd balk at a transperson painting other transpeople with such a broad brush.Transgenderism is a nuanced thing which you obviously do not fully understand. Even the briefest Google search would illustrate there are entire sections of the transgender populace which are non-operative. That means being a transgender does not mean you are seeking genital conversion surgery. So you can save the joke about "scars and sex changes."

As for searching history for gurus who were gender variant... Does that mean I must accept the spiritual authority of all the supposed ascended masters of history? How many African American ascended masters can you name? PB Rudolph? Any more? Does that suggest that black people are spiritually inferior? The metric you cite is one that is biased toward western culture, modernity, and Eurocentricity. You may be citing Indian gurus but that is only because of the exposure these leaders get in western culture as a reverberation of Orientalism and a western obsession with "the East" that started in the Victorian era. Consider those traditions which do not gain such exposure. For example, most ATR (African traditional religion) and its derivatives gets no such exposure. Gender variance is well established within Voodoo. Can you name a few Houngan, Mambo? You are aware there are Loa (Maska and sometimes Nibo) which are identified as gender variant, correct? You do know this same gender liminal trickster energy was inherent in Loki as well and referenced in the Edda?

The fact is Azidonis there are spiritual examples of transgender folks. There are very ancient and modern ones... What about the many examples of gender variance in deities? What about gender variance in spiritual practice around the world? What about the Hijra of India? What about the Gallae. What about the Semnotatoi? What about the American Indian two-spirit shaman tradition? This is what I mean by hetronormative straight male privilege. You are blind to those experiences outside your own narrow field. Whats worse is that instead of just being ignorant of it, you try to discount and disregard the transgender community as being fully fledged beings capable of spiritual advancement. If this same argument were being applied to homosexuals, African Americans, Arabs, or Jews you would be banned from this forum. And yes, there is a medical precedent that transsexuality may be biologically determined. 

I recommend the following if you actually want to educate yourself...

Bums in Brigantia: Sacred Gender-Variance in Ancient Germanic & Celtic Cultures
by Phil Hine[/url:19lnws8o]

Neither Man Nor Woman: The Hijras of India

Blossom of Bone - Reclaiming the Connections Between Homoeroticism and the Sacred

The Gallae: Transgender Priests of Ancient Greece, Rome, and the Near East

Hermaphrodeities by Raven Kaldera who is an intersex person who identifies as Transgender. He is quite a good writer and strikes me as extremely spiritual. There are others I am sure...

LIBER DIONYSUS: The Ritual Uses of Transvestism
by James M. Martin[/url:19lnws8o]

And while she is fictional she still rocks your fuckin' face off. Lord Fanny - Invisibles- a great representation of an anthropological fact of gender variance in shamanism.
And I know you are being snide but yes, I do active work for the TS community as well as several other LGBTQ initiatives.


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
07/12/2011 3:01 am  
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
You are making a judgment

No. I made a judgement, 4 years ago, which I have since retracted (and even apologized for).

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
based on your own experience as if your experience is more valid than another.

I don't recall anywhere saying my experience was more valid than any other. And, up to that point, my experience had obviously left me with a sour taste for the idea, one which I have since grown out of. Is it so hard to understand?

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
This is where the privilege comes in! I dont care if you don't want to express a gender identity other than your genetic sex.  I don't devalue your cis-gendered identity! But don't try and suggest that those who do identify other than the gender binary or those who identify as other than their birth assigned sex are somehow deluded or spiritually inferior.

Again, it was 4... that's four, as in f-o-u-r years ago.

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
I'd balk at a transperson painting other transpeople with such a broad brush.Transgenderism is a nuanced thing which you obviously do not fully understand. Even the briefest Google search would illustrate there are entire sections of the transgender populace which are non-operative. That means being a transgender does not mean you are seeking genital conversion surgery. So you can save the joke about "scars and sex changes."

This point does not make your point about the sephiroth any more valid. Going by ancient symbols, Zues carried Heracles in his thigh to birth him, IIRC. I don't see many people doing that either.

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
As for searching history for gurus who were gender variant... Does that mean I must accept the spiritual authority of all the supposed ascended masters of history? How many African American ascended masters can you name? PB Rudolph? Any more? Does that suggest that black people are spiritually inferior? The metric you cite is one that is biased toward western culture, modernity, and eurocentric. You may be citing Indian gurus but that is only becuae of the exposure these leaders get in western culture as a reverberation of Orientalism and a western obsession with "the East" that started in the Victorian era. Consider those traditions which do not gain such exposure. Most ATR (African traditional religion) and its derivatives gets no such exposure. Gender variance is well established within Voodoo. Can you name a few Houngan, Mambo? You are aware there are Loa (Maska and sometimes Nibo) which are identified as gender variant, correct? You do know this same gender liminal trickster energy was inherent in Loki as well and referenced in the Edda?

It means simply that there is more evidence of enlightenment in non-transgender individuals than in transgender individuals, contrary to your original claim.

Again, it says absolutely nothing about the ability of transgender individuals to discover and facilitate their True Wills.

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
The fact is Azidonis there are spiritual examples of transgender folks. There are very ancient and modern ones... What about the many examples of gender variance in deities? What about gender variance in spiritual practice around the world? What about the Hijra of India? What about the Gallae. What about the Semnotatoi? What about the American Indian two-spirit shaman tradition? This is what I mean by hetronormative straight male privilege. You are blind to those experiences outside your own narrow field. Whats worse is that instead of just being ignorant of it, you try to discount and disregard the transgender community as being fully fledged beings capable of spiritual advancement. If this same argument were being applied to homosexuals, African Americans, Arabs, or Jews you would be banned from this forum. And yes, there is a medical precedent that transsexuality may be biologically determined.

You are continuing to go off the 4 year old assertion. There is no need to continue speaking to you if you choose to do so.

How about I pick some random idea, or form of identity that you haven limited experience in, throw it in your face, and tell you to go educate yourself?

I'd say it's about time you got over it. You are continuing to base your statements about my position on a 4 year old statement, that is obviously no longer my view. If you would like to discuss those views I have presented in this thread that aren't 4 years old, instead of beating on the corpse of one that died 4 years ago, please let me know.

Also, in all of your "you should" mess, you really do need to take a look at yourself. While it's wonderful to actually see you posting constructively, surely we could go back through your post history and find words that could flip these two roles you have decided to generate.

And, if you want to continue to talk about "empathy", perhaps you should try filling my shoes once in a day, or even once in a lifetime, before you go "making a judgement based on your [limited] experience [with me, here on these boards], and saying it is more valid than any other", because I assure you, you don't know me as well as you may think.


ReplyQuote
einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
07/12/2011 3:23 am  

Thank you for apologizing for the more extreme statements which were posted 4 years back. I must say though I have, since the start of this thread, been responding to the fact you even think it is acceptable to say
"The overall question is, does assuming this identity assist or prevent one from both discovering and doing one's True Will?" 

The fact this question is asked is like saying "I see very few Black/Gay/Straight/Jewish ascended masters, does being Black/Gay/Straight/Jewish assist or prevent one from both discovering and doing one's True Will?"  The question is as offensive as it is absurd.

Regarding a recent statement. Your citation "there is more evidence of enlightenment in non-transgender individuals than in transgender individuals" is false. There is more evidence of celebrated "gurus" who have written books who are not transgender. That does not mean transgender people are less inclined to spiritual attainment. You also assume that all who attain become bodhisattva. What of those who go completely unknown and unnoticed because they didn't assume a teacher's role?


ReplyQuote
einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
07/12/2011 4:00 am  

And yes I see how you are trying to revise your older statements. I salute that even if I take issue with the revision. When I suggested you educate yourself on it I just want to point out there is indeed a spiritual tradition of gender liminiality that you dont seem to be aware of. I admit I could have shared that information without the barb attached. It certianly wont inspire you to click the links. I'm sorry for that.

And you know, being a pugilist isn't going to resolve anything. I don't want to prolong that tenor. Thank you for revising your original presentation. I really respect that but I still strongly disagree with your premise. This has come up once before on this forum and it will eventually come up again. I feel passionate about things like this because this issue is a little different than more abstract discussions of nuances of Thelema or the debates over the various OTOs. It was like when Troy Southgate got his nazi penis all up in Crowley. It points to a larger more dangerous social ill that manifests in nasty ways in everyday life.

Thanks for your time when I know your time is limited right now. Lets continue when you can and in the knowledge I do understand what you are trying to say I just happen to strongly disagree. I'd like to think if we shift the tone we might actually get somewhere else in the discussion if it turns to concepts of liminality, transgressing boundaries, and magick.


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
07/12/2011 4:12 am  
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
And yes I see how you are trying to revise your older statements. I salute that even if I take issue with the revision.

I really respect that but I still strongly disagree with your premise.

Well, it actually matters a lot to me, which is why I thanked you for pointing it out. I know how I've changed over the years, and I generally don't think about stuff like this often. There are many more things in my "sphere of influence" and of more immediate concern to me, but I do understand how it is a very active and prominent part of other people's lives. That said, it is the least I could do to try look at the statements again.

You say that upon looking at the updated views I have presented, you take issue with the premise. Which premise might that be, exactly?


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
07/12/2011 7:16 am  
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
actually DAR people say shit like this despite whatever astrological woo woo happens to be going on in the heavens. Also, its a hard fact of the internet - you say something, it stays here for all time pretty much... Sometimes things come back. I have said stupid shit myself -  big surprise.

Indeed - it is a hard fact of life that people find it difficult to forgive and forget, or allow themselves to think generously of others that they may change their views and evolve over time (as they do themselves).  But I was struck by the fact that the discussion in the babble-on box went on for 12 hours no less!  This seemed so extraordinary to me that I just had to assume there was some astrological woo woo behind some of it.  🙂 


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
07/12/2011 12:52 pm  

Question of Will?
Question of secretion?

Ejaculation and menstruation...


ReplyQuote
kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1842
07/12/2011 3:57 pm  

Az-

My initial response to your comment from many years back was (and remains) disagreement, respectfully submitted.  🙂 Specifically, you question why an incarnating being would select a vehicle unsuited to its purpose. This is where I think the difficulty begins. Los sees this premise as erroneous and the basis for perceived fallacies which follow. My own view is, perhaps, a bit broader in that I can see (and tend towards) views that are outside both of these ideas (reincarnation and no reincarnation).

For starters, even if we decide that we cannot identify a "being" that is somehow choosing a new incarnation, we still must look at all the factors involved in the arising of a new form and intelligence on the planet. We understand this in terms of a chain of cause and effect which are both perfectly in line with the way of nature. We can say thus and such is somehow "unnatural" in that it is tampered with outside the chance elements of the cosmsos (such as growing a baby in a lab, as an example) but in as much as we are elements of the cosmos (including our volition, intellect and action) these things are also part of the total cosmic picture. I'm not saying anything about how we bring values and ethics into the matter (which will also be part of the picture). Rather, ANY form coming into being is as much a part of the natural picture as the next. Furthermore, this form is not simply to be understood in terms of its own cause and effect chain. This "chain" is linked to every other such chain happening in the moment. If we reject the notion of a pre-existent "soul," we may still see the "cosmic life" in action, manifesting in a rising form. The impetus for this form lies not only with it's more immediate and identifiable history but with all the factors surrounding and pouring into it. So there IS a type of "incarnation" happening here but it is more complex than the nice and tidy schemas we find in various "occult" schools (specifying alternating sexes or metempsychosis or set degrees of duration between human lives and so on...)

Now, our intelligence and emotion is also part of this reality. This gives rise to our values and how we assign meaning and purpose to things. We had the example of the person who wants to be a "woman" but also wants to be a successful politician in an inopportune time. This poor creature is stuck between a rock and a hard place, yeah? I think it is fair to say that, in this hypothetical situation  (which certainly has its historic counterparts) we can see the Will of this individual moving in BOTH directions. The problem is "environmental." If we think one's Will automatically harmonizes with our environment, we're kidding ourselves. A huge part of magic is adapting to environmental conditions according to Will. Leaving, changing or enduring the conditions. There is no guarantee of a solution which will harmonize Will and Environment to a such a degree that conflict is eliminated. It  may be argued that such conflict is a needed element for significant growth in nature. 

Crowley has some-IMO-nasty words to say in "The Law Is For All" about letting nature sort out the unfit and get us back to the "glory days" of natural selection. It is (again-IMO) an immature statement which reduces assessment of power and value to a wholly materialistic context. AC in old age? Throw his ass into the woods, let him fend for himself. Instead, he survived off the labors of others and even availed himself of medical help to ("unnaturally") keep his ticker ticking. Point is: AC would point to his writing, his vision, his mission...he'd justify his hours on earth as one who is no longer fit for tackling mountains and beating bronchitis, indicating that certain non-material factors (such as his thought life) are worthy of support even if outward "nature" deems him ready for the recycling bin. 

I'd justify this, as well.

I had a conversation with a co-worker who alluded to R. Steiner's view on disabilities. Instead of the old and oppressive eastern view (they must have been a "bad person" and this is part of their "karma"), he saw them as advanced souls who were engaging with extraordinary challenges for the sake of growth. Now, I don't know much about Steiner's work; my allusion is simply to the thought which sees a challenging or conflictual situation as being a field for development and the expression of life.

There are so many factors that go into human sexuality and identity (including gender identity). We really would need to take a specific and real instance and try to break down all of these factors to get a reasonable picture of the situation. But movement away from the confines of one's environment (which now includes the BODY) may very well indicate both development and liberty. Yes, we also make choices that may imprison us further. This is why we can't make some sweeping judgment of the issue. On the flip side, we may have a homosexual who spends a lifetime repressing that tendency and living a "half-life" because of it (despite their smashing and successful career). In a different environment, one might likewise repress heterosexuality. The key is going deeply into one's genuine self and knowing it-and figuring out how to relate to the environment in the manner most beneficial to that self. This self is "deeper" than its vehicle.

In Ein's posts, there is concern raised over the hatred and even violence against people coming into conflict with an environment unwelcoming of what is unfolding within. This is part of the fight against environmental constraints which bind the Will. It's part of "Thelema in Action."

On one hand, I don't have a horse in this race. I'm just a straight guy in the United States. Noone is giving me flack at the bus stop because of my dress. But on the other, I DO have a horse in this race. I live and move and unfold my Will into space-time as part of this Continuum. I'm not an isolate being but a part of the picture. Those I love and value are likewise the same. The world in which I work and the world in which my children grow is one which is extremely hostile to elements which step outside of its control-confines. The tree or sparrow do not care if I walk to mailbox with eye shadow and the grass doesn't give a damn if I am chanting to Allah or Buddha or reciting the Lord's Prayer as I mow it down. It's HUMANS who have yet to understand their place in the cosmos and tenaciously hold to actions that give them a point of reference, a "security blanket" against the unknown. This blanket-in its myriad patchwork forms-is defended with bullets and bombs. It's soaked in blood. Yet the cosmic body of which I spoke (which we might call "Nuit") declares that in her incense IS no blood.

What I see is a doomed attempt on the part of a race in its infancy to carve a place amongst the Trees of Eternity, a little haven cut with temporal tools and destined to be swallowed in an overgrowth whose nature is "unimaginable joys" and "ecstasy." 

We've got a long way to go-and in the meantime, we're here. This asks of us all a sort of "double movement" between environment and Will, the inward and outward. Between the notion of "self" and the total cosmic picture, we can also see the importance of respecting, encouraging and fighting for the liberty of every being to unveil its Inmost Star (which may just happen to be struggling for expression with its physical form in the same manner that we struggle with our thought-patterns or physical surroundings).

Every breakthrough and outpouring on this level is an action "unto Nu" in which the Winged Globe moves perfectly.

93,

Kyle       


ReplyQuote
einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
07/12/2011 7:30 pm  
"moyal" wrote:
Question of Will?
Question of secretion?

Ejaculation and menstruation...

Care to elaborate Moyal? What are you suggesting?


ReplyQuote
einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
07/12/2011 9:07 pm  

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful post Kyle. Its always good to have you back on the forums. I want to point out a couple things you may not have known.

"kidneyhawk" wrote:
We had the example of the person who wants to be a "woman" but also wants to be a successful politician in an inopportune time.

We have this in New Zealand... Part of my problem is ( before we even get to the "magical mystical woo woo") that these arguments are based on assumptions about the transgender populace which are demonstratively false. We have a MP here in Parliament who just happens to be trans... Georgina Beyer

  This poor creature is stuck between a rock and a hard place, yeah? I think it is fair to say that, in this hypothetical situation  (which certainly has its historic counterparts) we can see the Will of this individual moving in BOTH directions.

See above. This is an assumption based on no data. You will see more and more successful politicians who are gender variant as society continues to loosen its weird obsession with gendering based on genitals. Hopefully ,Thelemites might catch up eventually : /  Oh, here are a few more openly transgender politicians and elected officials...
Anna Grodzka
Jenny Bailey
Joanne Conte
Jamie Lee Hamilton
Aya Kamikawa 
Vladimir Luxuria
Shabnam Mausi
Jessica Orsini
Stu Rasmussen
Amanda Simpson

I had a conversation with a co-worker who alluded to R. Steiner's view on disabilities. Instead of the old and oppressive eastern view (they must have been a "bad person" and this is part of their "karma"), he saw them as advanced souls who were engaging with extraordinary challenges for the sake of growth. Now, I don't know much about Steiner's work; my allusion is simply to the thought which sees a challenging or conflictual situation as being a field for development and the expression of life.

I want to point out something that may not
be apparent on first glance. It is a similar kind of "othering" which
occurred when Az asked the question "Can trans people find and do
their will?"

Even though this perception of disabled folks you cite above is kind
and said with good intentions, the speaker is still othering. A
disabled person is not lesser or greater in some spiritual sense than the speaker.
It is a subtle form of oppression for the abled bodied
person to take it upon themselves to classify the disabled as "noble
souls" in the same way that casting American Indians as "noble
savages" is cringe-worthy. In both cases it robs the person of their own
voice and identity and ascribes an intangible mystical air that others
them from the speaker and other "normal" people.

Consider this, when you meet the speaker above he makes  no such assumptions about your life,
spirit, or past lives. You enter the engagement with more opportunity to forge his perception of you
with your own voice. When he meets a person in a wheelchair he comes
with a preconceived set of assumptions about this person which are
completely unfounded and act as a barrier to a genuine experience.

This is a kind of trope which is often used as an offensive and lazy
shorthand which also robs the speaker of having an untainted
experience of a person who happens to be disabled.

So to bring it back around, its important not to take folks who are
different and further isolate and other them from the mainstream by
raising unfounded questions on their own capacity for "doing their
will" or suggesting they are magical mystical beings of super-karma.
🙂  They are people and want to be, and should be, seen and treated as people.
Not as "shining examples of a soul incarnating  for good" or
as somehow damaged souls unable to manifest their will.

When one group who is an majority speaks for and isolates another (either from malice or misplaced good intentions as above) you get someone exercising privilege over that minority. It happens all the time and its just good to try and see it in ourselves and check it when possible.

On one hand, I don't have a horse in this race. I'm just a straight guy in the United States. Noone is giving me flack at the bus stop because of my dress. But on the other, I DO have a horse in this race. I live and move and unfold my Will into space-time as part of this Continuum. I'm not an isolate being but a part of the picture. Those I love and value are likewise the same.

🙂 well said!

The world in which I work and the world in which my children grow is one which is extremely hostile to elements which step outside of its control-confines.

YES!! When we hate people or just other them for crimes against the status quo we really commit terrible violence against ourselves and the world we could have. 

 
One last thing, which I assume someone is going to note. If we want to being up arguments of "menstrual blood and semen" the person posting that must classify if that means women who do not regularly menstruate, do not menstruate, or have had a hysterectomy are unable to perform efficacious sexual magick or find and do their wills. Likewise, do men who have had a vasectomy or are sterile lose that function as well? I might point out, if you are over 30 the presence of white when you wank does not mean your sperm are still alive 😀  You need a fertility check for that.


ReplyQuote
kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1842
07/12/2011 10:15 pm  

Ein D-

Heya! In response to you, I just wanted to clairfy a few points I had made:

When I referred to the hypothetical individual wishing to move from male to female identity and pursue politics, I also qualified that example with the words "inopportune time." In other words, I am referring to past (and no doubt present) situations where the examples you cite (of one successfully doing this) would have been shut down by opposition. When I alluded to the Will running in both directions I was not indicating a conflict but trying to convey that the Will of an individual is going to express itself through innumerable activities and inclinations. When I first began to read Crowley, years back, I was taken with the rousing idea of each person having this special "Will" to fulfill. A person's Will, for example, could be to pursue music-and they give their whole life to that pursuit, forsaking all else. Yes, it was a romantic and two-dimensional notion. I began to increasingly see how Will radiates an influx into a perpetually moving, changing and multi-dimensional scenario. For example, I'm engaging in this dialogue as an expression of Will as I love to write and communicate-but I also took a swig of water during this same bout of typing. That action was no less my Will. Nor is the digestive process going on in my guts. This type of thinking can keeping spreading out until our minds can't follow it any further. The point is: in my example, the imaginary person's inclinations with gender have no conflict with their political ambitions (within themselves). The conflict arises in the layers and sheathings surrounding the Will, layers which can include our self-defeating thinking and extend into societal hostility and opposition. As Agents of Ra Hoor Khuit, we strive against this.

Several people know I work in the field of supports for developmental disabilities so naturally I found the Steiner allusion to be of interest...I'm awaiting a specific source for this as I want to read more of views on this topic. However, I am VERY familiar with the phenemena you call "othering." I have dealt with this on a variety of levels and on a daily basis for two decades now. It is my thought that the dissolution of this type of thinking is as necessary to the "advancement of the human race as a whole" as any contact with praeternatural intelligences. However, I see in that oft-quoted passage from AC (usually cited in support of magical ET investigations) implication of a level or degree of consciousness which will go far beyond the "othering" mentality. But this might be taking the theme of this thread in a totally different direction (i.e. the debate over disincarnate entities and the mystical implicits therein found).

Ironically, perhaps, I think AC's comment in The Law Is For All regarding getting rid of the unfit and back to hey-days of unimpeded natural selection will ultimately be shown for what it is by degree of attainment on the very Path he elucidated. It is, if you will, a gross example of "othering" and one that will untimately dissolve within the Light.

93,

Kyle


ReplyQuote
einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
07/12/2011 10:48 pm  
"kidneyhawk" wrote:
When I referred to the hypothetical individual wishing to move from male to female identity and pursue politics, I also qualified that example with the words "inopportune time." In other words, I am referring to past (and no doubt present) situations where the examples you cite (of one successfully doing this) would have been shut down by opposition.

Oh, I see. well, truth be told its still an inopportune time fro some people compared to others and always will be. The important part is we strive to make it not so. Hopefullyin that process things evolve and get better.

  When I alluded to the Will running in both directions I was not indicating a conflict but trying to convey that the Will of an individual is going to express itself through innumerable activities and inclinations. When I first began to read Crowley, years back, I was taken with the rousing idea of each person having this special "Will" to fulfill. A person's Will, for example, could be to pursue music-and they give their whole life to that pursuit, forsaking all else. Yes, it was a romantic and two-dimensional notion. I began to increasingly see how Will radiates an influx into a perpetually moving, changing and multi-dimensional scenario.

Indeed, I tend toward a one pointed sense of will in the moment but I definitely have the greater sense that  "the will" is indeed in flux and ever shifting - if it were not I imagine we would all be quite stagnant and life horribly boring 🙂

Several people know I work in the field of supports for developmental disabilities so naturally I found the Steiner allusion to be of interest... I'm awaiting a specific source for this as I want to read more of views on this topic. However, I am VERY familiar with the phenemena you call "othering."

I was not aware of that but Im sure then you know very well what I am speaking of and with much more firsthand knowledge in this particular scenario.

I have dealt with this on a variety of levels and on a daily basis for two decades now. It is my thought that the dissolution of this type of thinking is as necessary to the "advancement of the human race as a whole"

Well said! I cannot agree more. I see it as a demon that drags us all back and creates inertia.

However, I see in that oft-quoted passage from AC (usually cited in support of magical ET investigations) implication of a level or degree of consciousness which will go far beyond the "othering" mentality. But this might be taking the theme of this thread in a totally different direction (i.e. the debate over disincarnate entities and the mystical implicits therein found).

I really dont mind the thread evolving - please elaborate that here or privately if you are so inclined. It sounds very interesting! Thank you again for your perspective on this. Its always a bit tricky because we are using religious language to navigate a 21st century world which is in many ways  far more global and inclusive and *ghasp* sensitive than ever before. Of course its far more impersonal and dark as well so - the blade does cut both ways 🙂 I think its very easy to find ourselves locked into a thought model and the language of that model (the model being Thelema, Hermetic magick, Wicca, Christianity, etc) and lose sight of how the vocabulary inherent to the mode shapes out thought and even limits the parameters and borders of what we may consider when operating within that paradigm. Burroughs was right, language is a virus... did he also call it a prison?


ReplyQuote
einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
07/12/2011 11:31 pm  

Oh, I might add that "othering"  is not my coinage. Rather, it is a common component in Continental philosophy, which is used heavily in social science as well. In am merely borrowing one facet of its usage here.

"The Other" is a person or thing that does not fit into the dominant paradigm and/or calls into questions borders between accepted norms. Sounds pretty groovy, eh?

"The Other" is used as well by De Beauvoir  to  address dynamics between men and women and most pertinently by American post-structuralist philosopher and feminist  Judith Butler It also figures into the work of Julia Kristeva on Abjection which I posted a little while back. These two have written whole books on the phenomena and its implications within our society.

Cheers 🙂

[glow=red,2,300]einD[/glow]


ReplyQuote
mika
 mika
(@mika)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 360
09/12/2011 6:34 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
In such a case, a male changing to a female in order to fulfill his Will may not be the best idea. There are other examples of such things in this world, but Position 3 simply involves oppression.

You seem to be saying you think a person shouldn't live according to their Will if it's difficult or may have negative consequences.


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
09/12/2011 9:51 pm  
"mika" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
In such a case, a male changing to a female in order to fulfill his Will may not be the best idea. There are other examples of such things in this world, but Position 3 simply involves oppression.

You seem to be saying you think a person shouldn't live according to their Will if it's difficult or may have negative consequences.

When it comes to the difficulty of living according to one's Will, I think at worst it adds another piece to the puzzle. Whether or not it is more significant than any other piece is left to the individual to decide. At any rate, I don't think that anyone should underestimate the difficulty, and even negative consequences, of fulfilling one's Will. Also, each person's puzzle is their own to figure out, and we tend or add or subtract pieces as we go.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
10/12/2011 3:17 am  
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
Care to elaborate Moyal? What are you suggesting?

-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nem_uP-bpFs

Greetings moyalTOTO
http://armageddonconspiracy.co.uk/


ReplyQuote
einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
10/12/2011 3:24 am  
"moyal" wrote:
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
Care to elaborate Moyal? What are you suggesting?

-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nem_uP-bpFs

Greetings moyalTOTO
http://armageddonconspiracy.co.uk/

Well, ok...


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
10/12/2011 4:40 am  

Doppelganger: "Well, ok..."

The opposite answer of what I expected.
Honest Respect.


ReplyQuote
einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
10/12/2011 9:10 am  

nah, just confused by the second link.  🙂

None of that changes the fact Skinny Puppy kicks ass, and you brought the Skinny Puppy 🙂

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u07F8jMH_VY


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
10/12/2011 5:48 pm  

In most traditions, its understood that the vast majority of people do NOT incarnate into the body of their choice, best suited for their advancement. 
Since most people die without certain levels of basic meditative consciousness, the are directed by the "karma" of their persona and attachments toward incarnation in less-than-favorable forms; the more a person works at their own awareness of themselves, the better they will be able to control the process of reincarnation.  Obviously factors like working with a guru, initiation, and achieving adepthood (the K&C of the HGA) will all affect this.

But leaving this aside, I also think that while there may be some people that for reasons of awareness are literally "born into the wrong bodies", there may also be those who's will it more or less is to incarnate into someone on a gender spectrum somewhere between basic masculine and basic feminine.  There are ranges of these sorts of things, and incarnation in a form that is not strictly male or strictly female (be it in physical body, or in identity) might be an attempt to perform a specific task in the Great Work.

Swami


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
10/12/2011 7:29 pm  
"Swamiji" wrote:
In most traditions, its understood that the vast majority of people do NOT incarnate into the body of their choice, best suited for their advancement. 
Since most people die without certain levels of basic meditative consciousness, the are directed by the "karma" of their persona and attachments toward incarnation in less-than-favorable forms; the more a person works at their own awareness of themselves, the better they will be able to control the process of reincarnation.  Obviously factors like working with a guru, initiation, and achieving adepthood (the K&C of the HGA) will all affect this.

Yes.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
07/01/2012 9:26 am  

You guys are bickering more than two grandmas in a cooking contest lol...
  Here is how I see it short and sweet.  In the body of nuit we are not completely male or female. being a heterosexual that has feminine ways I can see where there could be power in dressing in a different face...after all our master says in liber jigorum that when you wear a ring on your right finger be a completely different person than when its on the left.  alluding that there could be more than one personality to our true will..So it would be hard to say if one is not being themselves if this is true.
  Also on an after thought, Maybe it was gods plan to teach them a lesson "not a bad one" but one there spirit needed to evolve. the true will is totally spirit, and that has to evolve on a given path dictated by who knows who, and to think that man could go against gods recommendations is like saying the devil went behind gods back to rule the world....Why would he...he is already the worlds creator and the thought of going against god is absurd..god created the devil for that reason, just as he created the transgender brotheren.  for whatever reason.......just as a side note a fairy that wore beautiful dresses and had a large beard turned me onto crowley and as far as im concerned thats good enough for me  93's


ReplyQuote
einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
07/01/2012 10:42 am  

Hi 93weeks,

Thanks for offering your opinion. I really appreciate what you are trying to say so please don't take this as bickering.

"93weeks" wrote:
You guys are bickering more than two grandmas in a cooking contest lol...
  Here is how I see it short and sweet.  In the body of nuit we are not completely male or female. being a heterosexual that has feminine ways I can see where there could be power in dressing in a different face...

Yes, that can be *part* of it for some people...perhaps. Do you find that as one with "feminine ways" you meet assumptions on a daily basis which are unfounded and you would rather not have to deal with?

When it comes to "transgender" identity its often more than "dressing in a different face" as  gender variance is often far deeper and more nuanced than just Transvestism (a term which was coined by Magnus Hirschfeldand originally suggested a kind of invocation where one wears the vestments of the identity they wish to claim.) For some people its nothing at all about clothing while for others it may me largely in physicality or entirely psycho/spiritual. All these identites are valid and none are more valid or complete than somoene who is born with a biological gender that aligns with their internal identity.

"Transgender" isn't an easily quantified pathology which can be applied to a subset of people and judged with a simple opinion. This is a group of people who are fully fledged and capable of living and doing their wills. They should be able to do so without other people feeling they have the right to suggest that they are somehow inferior, burdened, or otherwise incomplete. Usually the people who make these judgments never consider that they go through their own lives never having to field such an assumption about their own ability to function.

Gender variance is a natural state of humanity which has antecedents from the earliest civilizations.  We are talking about people who live a gender identity outside the binary or somewhere on the spectrum which is not defined by their genitals. This is problematic because society at large (especially in the modern West) has a tendency to define acceptable gender expression based on the assumption of what genitals the person possesses. My point has been that the identity that someone presents has nothing at all to do with anyone but them and certainly does not inhibit their ability to be a self actualized Thelemite. It often seems the only people who have problems with this are those who are passing judgment, not those who are simply getting on with their wills.

I don't understand why it is so hard to simply take the stance of "Do what thou wilt" and move right along.

after all our master says in liber jigorum ....

I have a really hard time calling any man or woman master, especially Crowley (shudder).

  Also on an after thought, Maybe it was gods plan to teach them a lesson

OK... Again, I know you don't mean this to be judgmental but... well... it still is anyway. Who is this god and do they often hand out lessons? Are they correspondence courses? Is there a certificate at the end and do I get to quantify someone else's life with "Oh, god is teaching you a lesson, but its OK its a good lesson!"

... but one there spirit needed to evolve.

Here we go again. Are some people so fundamentally privileged they don't see how judgmental and outside the realm of acceptably these kinds of statements are? Its not OK to look at a life you have no experience with and decide that God is somehow putting a hardship on that person as a lesson. Why is it a hardship?
I think its very dangerous to suggest anyone's life path is somehow a burden set before them so god can make them evolve. It assumes, in this instance, that someones trans* status is a pathology, weakeness, or defect (as of 2011 the WHO has moved toward depathologizing transgender and gender non-conforming identities in the same way homosexuality was depathologized in 1973. ) What is someone is perfectly happy with a gender identity outside the binary? Often it seems to me the only people that seem to have a problem are the people who insist on judging others. 

just as a side note a fairy that wore beautiful dresses and had a large beard turned me onto crowley

Radical faeries kick ass. : ) I'm glad to see you here on LAShTAL and jumping into the threads. Let me stress again I really do appreciate your opinion and I hope I may have been able to offer a different perspective. Thanks 🙂

Cheers
einD 


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
17/03/2012 5:35 pm  

Define Cissexism: cisgender people debating about the nature and the will of transgender people (e.g. this entire thread).


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
17/03/2012 5:44 pm  


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
17/03/2012 5:45 pm  
"transversegirl" wrote:
Define Cissexism: cisgender people debating about the nature and the will of transgender people (e.g. this entire thread).

Hi transversegirl.  How can you tell by just reading them? 

I'm hetrosexual but gender non-conformist, so would that make me Cissexual?  It's the first time I've heard the term.

Welcome to Lashtal btw!  🙂

Az - lol. 


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
17/03/2012 5:56 pm  
"Dar" wrote:
Hi transversegirl.  How can you tell by just reading them?

Easy. Transgender people are treated as objects.

"Dar" wrote:
I'm hetrosexual but gender non-conformist, so would that make me Cissexual?  It's the first time I've heard the term.

The term has been around for quite some time, at least in Queer and gender non-conforming circles. As for your personal gender identity, only you can determine that.

"Dar" wrote:
Welcome to Lashtal btw!  🙂 

Thanks. But, I've actually lurked on this forum (under one pseudonym or another) since 2006.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
19/03/2012 1:33 pm  

In Thoth Tarot the Fool and the Magus are hermaphrodite which indeed crosses (trans) both genders. This sounds just right to me/us!


ReplyQuote
mika
 mika
(@mika)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 360
21/03/2012 11:03 pm  
"Dar" wrote:
I'm hetrosexual but gender non-conformist, so would that make me Cissexual?   

It doesn't matter how you define your sexuality: hetero-, homo-, bi-, a-, other.  It doesn't matter if you are gender-nonconformist in your dress or actions. If you have female genitalia and identify as a woman, you are cisgender (or cissexual) and enjoy cisgender/cissexual priviledge. End of story.

Az - I didn't realize threads have unspoken, unwritten enddates, after which point people can be ridiculed for reviving the conversation.  The horror!


ReplyQuote
lashtal
(@lashtal)
Owner and Editor Admin
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 5322
21/03/2012 11:05 pm  

Dar is no longer a member of this site.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


ReplyQuote
einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
21/03/2012 11:21 pm  

Mika: well put. That pretty much sums up what cis-gendered means. It is a term most often heard within identity politics, queer theory, and gender non conforming activist circles but it is quickly making inroads into mainstream dialogs in the past 5 years.

I am really happy to see this conversation continue with new voices joining in. Its important that questions of privilege be addressed and I think a lot of very basic assumptions are being challenged here and hopefully opening some new perspectives in the process. I'd like to preemptively mention something that often crops up in discussions about privilege . Often the first response is to become defensive when called on "having privilege" in the first place.

We all have some variations of privilege. It can be extended based on race, class, gender, sexual orientation, nationality, education, economic strata, the list goes on and recognizing the interconnectivity of privilege with the modalities of social relationships is called intersectionalityand its quite a rabbit hole unto itself.

The trick with privilege, in my opinion,  is to recognize it, address it, and deconstruct how it colors your experience, perspective, language, and actions. This allows you to more clearly empathize and communicate with others.

Thank you to all involved!

einD


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
22/03/2012 2:35 am  
"mika" wrote:
Az - I didn't realize threads have unspoken, unwritten enddates, after which point people can be ridiculed for reviving the conversation.  The horror!

It was a picture. Lighten up.


ReplyQuote
mika
 mika
(@mika)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 360
22/03/2012 6:32 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
It was a picture. Lighten up.

"Lighten up".  Now *that's* funny. And ironic, I guess, considering the topic of this thread.  Why does it bother you so much that I didn't think your picture was funny, that instead of asking why or respecting my perspective or simply saying 'sorry', you got defensive and accused me of not being able to take a joke? 

"In other words ... the phrase is usually the result of wounded pride, or it's the mark of a bully. Moreover, it's telling you that you shouldn't mind about something that you do mind about, and believe you should mind about, such as sexism, racism, transphobia, disablism and other examples of someone's failure to imagine, and care, what the lives of others might be like."

I don't think you're a bully at all, so it must just be wounded pride.  Your response to me is part of the problem that non-hetero, male, white people face within typically hetero male white communities such as this one.  So now the question is, is Lashtal (not the site or moderator, but the community of participants here) open and supportive of alternative perspectives, even if it challenges individuals' comfort levels?  Or are alternative perspectives, especially critical ones, to be shunned and ridiculed and dismissed? 

By the way, that link is just one random one I chose out of many from the feminist and anti-racist communities.  The 'lighten up' response is very common.  And understandable.  It just doesn't hold any water. 


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
22/03/2012 9:16 pm  
"mika" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
It was a picture. Lighten up.

"Lighten up".  Now *that's* funny. And ironic, I guess, considering the topic of this thread.  Why does it bother you so much that I didn't think your picture was funny, that instead of asking why or respecting my perspective or simply saying 'sorry', you got defensive and accused me of not being able to take a joke? 

"In other words ... the phrase is usually the result of wounded pride, or it's the mark of a bully. Moreover, it's telling you that you shouldn't mind about something that you do mind about, and believe you should mind about, such as sexism, racism, transphobia, disablism and other examples of someone's failure to imagine, and care, what the lives of others might be like."

I don't think you're a bully at all, so it must just be wounded pride.  Your response to me is part of the problem that non-hetero, male, white people face within typically hetero male white communities such as this one.  So now the question is, is Lashtal (not the site or moderator, but the community of participants here) open and supportive of alternative perspectives, even if it challenges individuals' comfort levels?  Or are alternative perspectives, especially critical ones, to be shunned and ridiculed and dismissed? 

By the way, that link is just one random one I chose out of many from the feminist and anti-racist communities.  The 'lighten up' response is very common.  And understandable.  It just doesn't hold any water. 

You can apply it to whatever you want to. A poster necro'd a thread, and I put up a thread necro picture. It's not the first time that the necroing of threads has been mentioned on this site, and probably won't be the last.

That you feel the need to tie the little picture into some overarching dichotomy says more about you than it does me.


ReplyQuote
einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
22/03/2012 9:49 pm  

No Az, I'm sorry but you were dismissing further discussion of a dialog which isn't resolved and is open to further participation. Yes "Thread Necromancy" is a common meme but this particular thread is a fair bit more triggering than the average debate of "What color cocks did Crowley wear the 4th time he did the dirty with Rose." I'd venture its also far more pertinent to the further evolution of Thelema.

You also must understand that being the source of the comments that instigated the discussion puts you in a less than ideal position to be the person trying to stifle or ridicule its continued examination. While I know you meant no harm the best choice was probably not to preemptively dismiss further dialog. Thats the source of the frustration. Please be aware that when issues like this are pointed out the common response is "ok fine, now go away."
That shit  dont fly : D


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
22/03/2012 10:58 pm  
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
No Az, I'm sorry but you were dismissing further discussion of a dialog which isn't resolved and is open to further participation.

No, I wasn't.

Dialogue and participate all you like.


ReplyQuote
einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
22/03/2012 11:04 pm  

Dude, yeah you were.  🙂 

When you reenter the discussion to post an image snarking on the fact the thread has been revived, you are being dismissive. Just accept it, bad choice. 
You can remain in the thread or step away. I'd say you are the last person who should be critical of its continued discussion - "thread necromancy" or not 🙂

Mika is well within their rights to call you out on that. In context here, it was a poor choice. So lets just stop splitting hairs on that one. I know you meant no harm but I'm trying to point out why it sucked. OK? cool : )


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
22/03/2012 11:20 pm  
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
Dude, yeah you were.  🙂 

No, I wasn't.

If I were going to dismiss the re-emergence of the thread, I would have simply hit the "Unnotify"  box and left it at that.

If anything, I was acknowledging its re-emergence by posting the picture.

You can put whatever other intents you want onto that, I don't care. You think you know my intent better than I do. That's something for you to deal with not me. I know it is false.

Carry on.


ReplyQuote
Page 1 / 3
Share: