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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
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22/03/2012 11:22 pm  

fair enuff, we both had a say on it. I still feel Mika is justified but I'm gonna drop this particular point.

Lets go talk about or favorite world teacher somewhere and get some initiation 'n shit 🙂


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pad631
(@pad631)
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Posts: 51
23/03/2012 1:26 am  

Hi,

In this context, Transgender Issues. I personally , don't often see or meet such persons, so I couldn't
judge of them. Probably there  are various personalities, also maybe even more reasons for such
behavior, or way of leaving. Maybe they are in some cases are some "freaks" ,distorted figures ,
or maybe, if it is young lad look like a girl, well it might scare some puritans , even me , why young
man do this to himself -;).
But modern medicine have some claims about that. Who know from what reasons.

Pure emotionally, why not, leave them to have they life.
In Theory, what the f. is that. Where are the opposites, where are the Jing and Jang .

But maybe in context of Thelema , which is a very wide concept in my opinion, transgenders
are not issue at all. If that is a true will of them. But you can't force them to meditate
to discover, what in hell they really wont whit that, the social status? or easy money and what not else.
So if someone chooses that, this should be his right, and let him in that.
Even if it is the crime against nature, in this Earthly world.

But if you discard the body? What we have else. Where is the mind, in what body?
Does the etheric bodies  have sex or gender?

And interesting thing in case of Incarnation, if one is male now, and in next life is a woman .
Or vice-versa.


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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23/03/2012 2:36 am  

Interesting to see some evolve & others not evolving quite so much as one might hope in response to this topic.
I have a hard time understanding how Thelemites could reasonably be other than welcoming to a person based on sexual expression or identity, especially given the "Diane de Rougy" business.  There is, after all, copious support in Holy Writ for sexual freedom (trans identity is not just about sexuality, but repressive mechanisms towards these identities & practices are almost always couched in such terms).
I also have to admit to a morbid & immature curiousity as what on earth Dar said in this thread to get banned- while a bit [adjective], she always struck me as quite kind-hearted & sensitive to others. I'm not surprised she's gotten herself banned (is it again?), but just at the context.


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einDoppelganger
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23/03/2012 2:54 am  
"ignant666" wrote:
I have a hard time understanding how Thelemites could reasonably be other than welcoming to a person based on sexual expression or identity, especially given the "Diane de Rougy" business. 

Well said ignant666!!
Indeed!!! Crowley's first long-term lover, if I am not mistaken. A lovely performer!


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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23/03/2012 2:57 am  

More importantly, AC's first love.


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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23/03/2012 3:24 am  

A splendid picture BTW, einD, which i don't recall seeing previously.
One wonders if AC is the person holding up the rear draperies/back part of Diane's dress (& perhaps the cause of that Mona Lisa-esque smile)?
Anyway, after they've finished their review of Liber Oz, would the trans-phobic disciples of Diane's boyfriend care to respond?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
23/03/2012 8:56 am  

'Every Man and Woman Is a Star' all made from the same dust. I am a binary star (a natural phenomena), two stars orbiting around their common center of mass. The brighter star is called the primary and the other is its companion star...today is Sophie day!


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the_real_simon_iff
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23/03/2012 11:40 am  

93!

I thought Az' posting of the picture quite fitting - even if it might have been just for personal "not THIS thread again" reasons - because the thread was not resurrected to add new insights or perspectives but some labeling-freak of an anarchist punk atheist genderqueer feminist sadist internet entity resurrected it to call other internet entities cissexists because in its view cisgender entities are obviously not allowed to discuss transgender issues because poor transgender entities are treated as objects which it could detect "easily". How pathetic! An entity virtually screaming "I am SOOO different and therefore better" - and not even showing the courtesy to say thanks to a hearty welcome because it was lurking already for sooooo long! Most probably the resurrection of the thread was just a little promo action for that entity's superfluous and uninspiring blog (okay, that's just my opinion). That's why I think Az's picture was perfect!

Hopefully that elitist anarchist punk atheist genderqueer feminist sadist has read a little on about what Scott wrote about privilege...

Love=Law
Lutz


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pad631
(@pad631)
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23/03/2012 11:56 pm  

Hi, I've just saw that Dar from some reasons had been  expelled  from this site,
maybe that post has been deleted, but since was on this topic,
I would  take that the opportunity to ask if is possible some  reverse action,
or if she wont to, to  back here?

I hope I've expressed that fairly in english. Sometimes i forget a very basics  language -:)


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lashtal
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24/03/2012 9:10 pm  

Dar has, indeed, left LAShTAL.COM. But don't worry, if you're minded to do so you can always follow her at heruraha.net: http://heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9224&p=60209#p60209

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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25/03/2012 2:12 am  

Let Mary inviolate be torn upon wheels: for her sake let all chaste women be utterly despised among you.
Also for beauty's sake and love's!
AL III 55-56.


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pad631
(@pad631)
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25/03/2012 2:38 am  

To lashtal: Thanks for the info.

And I won't be back to this topic. Maybe it is to much for me , in this time -:)

93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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26/04/2012 6:48 pm  

I am a spiritual entity
Biology and society have labeled me as male and heterosexual
A male, thanks to the flesh between my legs
A heterosexual since sexual urges only arise in the presence of attractive females
I am only the first thing
The rest are space-marks, bound to confusion


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pad631
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26/04/2012 7:43 pm  

I understand the first statement on the spiritual nature of life.
Yes, but in everyday life, we have to earn,
to eat, to satisfy the urges, In most cases at least.
I do not believe in love between the same gender. Simply there is no magic there. Maybe I'm wrong .. Really. This is my perspective.
At least something like that is not part of the Magical work or similar.
Why would this be important in magical work, there is no reason for it.
Unless someone for some reason can not have a intercourse with the opposite sex.
It was all quite strange for me. My opinion is just personal. If it has any meaning at all.
There is not much philosophy in that. -:)

I do not belieive that it is ignorant or similar opinion. It is not racism or similrar.
93


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Azidonis
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26/04/2012 8:23 pm  

Of possible interest


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 Anonymous
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07/07/2012 11:00 pm  

Being a transsexual Thelemite, I feel that I need to chip in my two cents.

I feel that my transition is an assertion of my will and I'm not too entirely sure how I got into this body but it's my body and I have to do the best with what I have. My soul, however, is female and I know this after living for two decades and trying my hardest to live as a male, I know that in my heart that I was not able to manifest that. So, I decided to correct my body to match my soul and I feel that this is the best path to true unity.

Now, I feel that part of my Will involves accepting the fact that I am trans*, as I do not feel I would be nearly as effective/good/aware/conscious/whatever if I did not transition.

Now, I must admit that most transsexual people are abso-fucking-lutely nuts. Myself included, but I'd like to think I'm on the saner side than some of the people I've read and met. Furthermore, we have the experience of having some people with some really messed up views on transsexuality expressing them and working to get others to put us down and deny the reality of our existence. This could get someone very defensive and make them think that cissexual people should not discuss transsexuality. I disagree, because even though one in 2,500 people (possibly more) is likely to be transsexual, the fact of the matter is that most cissexual people will think they are just encountering cissexual either unless (1) some/all of their trans* acquaintance(s) can't pass for shit or (2) some/all of their trans* acquaintance(s) have come out.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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Posts: 4942
08/07/2012 3:16 am  
"OnTheOtherHand" wrote:
"... I must admit that most" (insert any specific term for persons who are statistically different from the masses) "people are abso-fucking-lutely nuts. Myself included, but I'd like to think I'm on the saner side than some of the people I've read and met."

I see that your are situated in Denver. I took a major initiation in Denver and the Magickal Punch is still there. The actual Chi (energy) is located beneath the bedbrock bowl under the city. So you find things like Mining Education and nearby caves filled with electronics.  But there's also a gateway overhead. That's why the Air Force is right next door, and there's a lot of radioactive barrels of hot shit sitting around somewhere nearby - thank Horus I forget where.
It's the "secondary capitol" of the USA - in case Washington, DC gets bombed, buried, or sunken, but it's a wonderful place because the politicians are still in DC.

Anyone can read about Magickal Adventures in Denver here:
http://min.us/mbkhRrElTe
There is a ownload link for this 3 or 4 page historical non-fiction pdf.

I always liked Boulder, until it became the "Sedona of Colorado." You know, all the yogis and the gurus, and even an acupuncture school. It has a nice vibration - peaceful - that's why they're there. Thelemites will be drawn more to Denver. There's not a lot of religious opposition; it's just so damn magickally hot that we go out of our way to wish you good luck.


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pad631
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08/07/2012 2:50 pm  

In the the magical terms, I personally would not ask any difference if a person has has experienced gender change or not at all.
The only important thing is whether he or she truly feels, what happens in that short period of time.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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08/07/2012 6:40 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
Anyone can read about Magickal Adventures in Denver here: http://min.us/mbkhRrElTe  - There is a ownload link for this 3 or 4 page historical non-fiction pdf.

Eek! said the geek.

I thought I specifically had entered my "Denver" post (above) under the Announcement of Thelemic Activities in Colorado.

Then those two Colorado threads got merged and my post didn't appear. So, I uttered the magick phrase, "WTF?" (not Eek! for Heru's sake) and the genie brought me here to transgender issues where my post ended up.

Soror OtherHand is the common element, of course. I would like to blame The Black Lodge, but I must admit that I had too many threads open at once, and thus I was subject to some sort of confusion. Well, that's the same thing as admitting the presidency of The Black Lodge, so I guess the secret's out now.

Then ... I looked at the short download paper that I had linked, and I found that footnote #3 was incomplete. If anybody (there are 3 of you) noticed this, the full footnote now reads ...

(3) But much later, I performed these same Tarot and Aura consultations for a professional fee as a physician. The “psychic” content was secondary to the medical purpose of the appointed visit.[/font:36i88an1][/align:36i88an1]

I can't correct the online pdf without changing the link, so what you get here is the final apology.

These matters of a transgender, homosexual, heterosexual, asexual nature are of no import to me. In 1968, I had one of those powerful visions that impressed (imprinted?) me at some core: Long lines of warriors were marching onward - in name of Baphome, no less. They were men and woman alike, but each carried a spear over his or her shoulder. A single source of light relected from the very tip of each shining spear-point. The message was very clear. At the core, there is no difference between a man or a woman. Each is no more than a spark of light!

As a physician, I can assure you that there is a difference at the physical level. As an energy feld consultant, I can tell you that there is a difference at the mental level. But once you get past that mental plane, certain distinctions begin to disappear. You know what is says in the book, right? Every man and every woman is a star.


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pad631
(@pad631)
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09/07/2012 7:38 pm  
"pad631" wrote:
In the the magical terms, I personally would not ask any difference if a person has has experienced gender change or not at all.
The only important thing is whether he or she truly feels, what happens in that short period of time.

Please to administrators, this quoted message on: July 08, 2012, 01:50:49 pm, I never wrote.
At least not at this time, maybe earlier, I do not remember exactly.
Does any plays with the messages?
Although interesting sentences, maybe not well spelled.

thanks


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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09/07/2012 9:17 pm  
"pad631" wrote:
Please to administrators, this quoted message on: July 08, 2012, 01:50:49 pm, I never wrote.
At least not at this time, maybe earlier, I do not remember exactly.
Does any plays with the messages?
Although interesting sentences, maybe not well spelled.

This and the previous message - the spelling of which looks fine to me - were both submitted from the user name 'pad631'. Both were submitted from the same IP address. Nuff said?

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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pad631
(@pad631)
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Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 51
10/07/2012 2:30 pm  

Ok, Thanks
Obviously overlook I have made!

93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
12/07/2012 3:43 am  
"Shiva" wrote:
As a physician, I can assure you that there is a difference at the physical level. As an energy feld consultant, I can tell you that there is a difference at the mental level. But once you get past that mental plane, certain distinctions begin to disappear. You know what is says in the book, right? Every man and every woman is a star.

The physical part of my transition is simply about reducing those differences as much as possible (usually, the detectable differences). As for the mental aspect, I feel that I am female mentally but concerned with being trans (a concern most genetic women do not have to concern themselves about).


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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12/07/2012 6:46 am  
"OnTheOtherHand" wrote:
"Shiva" wrote:
As a physician, I can assure you that there is a difference at the physical level. As an energy feld consultant, I can tell you that there is a difference at the mental level. But once you get past that mental plane, certain distinctions begin to disappear. You know what is says in the book, right? Every man and every woman is a star.

The physical part of my transition is simply about reducing those differences as much as possible (usually, the detectable differences). As for the mental aspect, I feel that I am female mentally but concerned with being trans (a concern most genetic women do not have to concern themselves about).

Why are you concerned?
___________

Also, generally as per the thread... people say they are born homosexual (male/female), and people also say that they find themselves a male thinking they "should have been" or "should be" female, and vice versa.

It it not my intent to question anyone's choices in the matter. "Do what thou wilt..." But, in an effort to understand transgenderism (is it an ism?), what is it that makes people think they are not just feminine males or masculine females?

I guess what I'm wondering is, what is it that makes people actually want to go through with a full sex change? I know there are many different reasons, so a philosophical answer is not what I am looking for. What I am asking for, is individual reasons, which may or may not be philosophical.


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kidneyhawk
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12/07/2012 7:38 am  

If I might add a comment, Az-? An individual who amazes me is Genesis P. I am, quite frankly, not sure how to allude to him/her (a "him?" a "her?" a "hir?"). I guess I tend towards the "him" only because I can recall pics of a GUY with shaved head in camo doing strange music. I was very touched by "his" love for Lady J and the radical actions taken by both of them to essentially "become" each other. Being so far from anything I would do, I also admired "his" guts in making such a transformation. This wasn't "dress-up." It was a big-time permanent change. Something the average human just doesn't do.

This type of action invites controversy and criticism and so on...but where do these things come from? There is such a compression in modern society. If eliminated, what would any of us become? This is NOT a "philosophical" or "abstract" question. If any of knew that we would not be condemned for following our impulses, what then? Well, we'd be a hell of a lot more inclined to do so-and we'd be revealing a lot more of our authentic nature, something AC was all about-AND proclaiming as a characteristic of the New Age liberating us from the fetters of the old.

Total freedom might reveal something of what we are and mean as human manifestations of the Body of God on this planet, something beyond the ken of any mammalian control system.

I personally feel that there is a type of "Grace" in coming into the Gnosis of the Trans-human state. If we resist it strongly enough, it can appear as a Lovecraftian Horrorshow. If we can surrender to a degree, we might come into a Vision which drops one more scale from our eyes. To the extent that I have been able to enter such a state, I am interested in WHO a person IS as a unique Star in the Body of Nuit. A package packed into a mini is not so important to the judgment of my little limited experience as the totality of the person who Karma has drawn me toward. We share an orbit (even if for a brief moment). That's Karma.

I have no proverbial "horse in this race" but then again, perhaps I do. I care. I have children who I love and I would like to see every possible advance on the planet towards a state where we might all pursue our most genuine potentials in a very fleeting and dangerous world.

Now let's consider our pal, AC. On one hand, he was a mystic and very concerned with the initiatory levels of Magic. On the other, he (as "Magus" etc) was very concerned with establishing a vehicle whereby a future trajectory might be realized. He did this by investing his life in the O.T.O.. I think AC's Vision identified with transtemporal realms and allowed him to be actively involved in the temporal reflection of growth into the same. This is why our "Beast 666" was a self-proclaimed "Bodhisattva" (ala "John St. John"). Bi-sexual. Imperfect. A human until the very end. He was the "first" of the Aeon and what did we expect? Some Pristine Christ?

I have to believe that ANY step ANY of us take towards the vision of this faulty (yet receptive) Englishman will be of value. Sometimes I despair at the overall planetary scene but I keep bouncing back. I keep nodding my head to "Every Man and Every Woman is a Star."

And we are FAR MORE than what our bodily voyage would have us be. For THAT is the Karma of the PAST-and if we have ANY "Attainment," we must also receive Karmas from the FUTURE...

My two cents in Space-Time Currency, Brother,

Kyle     


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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Posts: 2964
12/07/2012 5:03 pm  

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on it, Kyle. Much appreciated.

"kidneyhawk" wrote:
If I might add a comment, Az-? An individual who amazes me is Genesis P. I am, quite frankly, not sure how to allude to him/her (a "him?" a "her?" a "hir?"). I guess I tend towards the "him" only because I can recall pics of a GUY with shaved head in camo doing strange music. I was very touched by "his" love for Lady J and the radical actions taken by both of them to essentially "become" each other. Being so far from anything I would do, I also admired "his" guts in making such a transformation. This wasn't "dress-up." It was a big-time permanent change. Something the average human just doesn't do.

You said "big-time permanent" change. I know what you mean. It's a lasting life decision, one not made to ever be undone (is that even possible?). Yet, what do you think of this in relation to impermanence?

"kidneyhawk" wrote:
This type of action invites controversy and criticism and so on...but where do these things come from? There is such a compression in modern society. If eliminated, what would any of us become? This is NOT a "philosophical" or "abstract" question. If any of knew that we would not be condemned for following our impulses, what then? Well, we'd be a hell of a lot more inclined to do so-and we'd be revealing a lot more of our authentic nature, something AC was all about-AND proclaiming as a characteristic of the New Age liberating us from the fetters of the old.

I think the criticism comes from ignorance and fear. When a person's (or society's) presuppositions about people and the way they expect each other to act are challenged and even counterbalanced, it births a situation that many people are unequipped to handle. Ignorance of the change, and the fear born out of ignorance and impotence concerning how to adapt to the change. Then people group up and throw stones. 

"kidneyhawk" wrote:
Total freedom might reveal something of what we are and mean as human manifestations of the Body of God on this planet, something beyond the ken of any mammalian control system.

In my opinion, it's just another image. We change our images all the time, and no image is permanent. I guess this is why I have never seen the 'big deal' about it.

"kidneyhawk" wrote:
I personally feel that there is a type of "Grace" in coming into the Gnosis of the Trans-human state. If we resist it strongly enough, it can appear as a Lovecraftian Horrorshow. If we can surrender to a degree, we might come into a Vision which drops one more scale from our eyes. To the extent that I have been able to enter such a state, I am interested in WHO a person IS as a unique Star in the Body of Nuit. A package packed into a mini is not so important to the judgment of my little limited experience as the totality of the person who Karma has drawn me toward. We share an orbit (even if for a brief moment). That's Karma.

I won't comment on the karma part. But, the Trans-human state that you mention I am well aware of. But, I never took that state to mean "go out and change your sex". I try to couple every "state" with "How does this relate to me and who I am? What does it tell me about myself? How can I approach this teaching?" and of course afterwards, "Neti neti!".

Of course, others may interpret it differently. Individual mileage my vary.

"kidneyhawk" wrote:
I have no proverbial "horse in this race" but then again, perhaps I do. I care. I have children who I love and I would like to see every possible advance on the planet towards a state where we might all pursue our most genuine potentials in a very fleeting and dangerous world.

Now let's consider our pal, AC. On one hand, he was a mystic and very concerned with the initiatory levels of Magic. On the other, he (as "Magus" etc) was very concerned with establishing a vehicle whereby a future trajectory might be realized. He did this by investing his life in the O.T.O.. I think AC's Vision identified with transtemporal realms and allowed him to be actively involved in the temporal reflection of growth into the same. This is why our "Beast 666" was a self-proclaimed "Bodhisattva" (ala "John St. John"). Bi-sexual. Imperfect. A human until the very end. He was the "first" of the Aeon and what did we expect? Some Pristine Christ?

I think that maybe he proved that one could achieve enlightenment without the trappings of a monastery. Maybe he trimmed the wheat from the chaff as far as the teachings were concerned. But I think that might have overlooked their importance. He perhaps did not realize that just because they weren't applicable to him does not mean they are not applicable to others. And, I think that "Thelemites" in general should take that to heart as well, especially in the clique-ish groups that somehow think their perceived way is the "only way". In my opinion, that's a huge lesson from Crowley that we would do well to carry forward to our children, as you pointed out.

"kidneyhawk" wrote:
I have to believe that ANY step ANY of us take towards the vision of this faulty (yet receptive) Englishman will be of value. Sometimes I despair at the overall planetary scene but I keep bouncing back. I keep nodding my head to "Every Man and Every Woman is a Star."

And we are FAR MORE than what our bodily voyage would have us be. For THAT is the Karma of the PAST-and if we have ANY "Attainment," we must also receive Karmas from the FUTURE...

My two cents in Space-Time Currency, Brother,

Kyle     

Eloquent ending. I see where you are going with that, and I agree, on one level. On another, not as much. But, that's just how these things work, I presume. 🙂


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/08/2012 11:49 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
"OnTheOtherHand" wrote:
"Shiva" wrote:
As a physician, I can assure you that there is a difference at the physical level. As an energy feld consultant, I can tell you that there is a difference at the mental level. But once you get past that mental plane, certain distinctions begin to disappear. You know what is says in the book, right? Every man and every woman is a star.

The physical part of my transition is simply about reducing those differences as much as possible (usually, the detectable differences). As for the mental aspect, I feel that I am female mentally but concerned with being trans (a concern most genetic women do not have to concern themselves about).

Why are you concerned?
___________

Also, generally as per the thread... people say they are born homosexual (male/female), and people also say that they find themselves a male thinking they "should have been" or "should be" female, and vice versa.

It it not my intent to question anyone's choices in the matter. "Do what thou wilt..." But, in an effort to understand transgenderism (is it an ism?), what is it that makes people think they are not just feminine males or masculine females?

I guess what I'm wondering is, what is it that makes people actually want to go through with a full sex change? I know there are many different reasons, so a philosophical answer is not what I am looking for. What I am asking for, is individual reasons, which may or may not be philosophical.

Because... no genetic female who lives as female knows what it's like to transition, to live as a trans* person. I'm not sure how to explain it, tbh.

Why don't I see living as a feminine male acceptable? Well, I have tried that and that wasn't enough for me. Neither was crossdressing. The reason why and the problem with both is because of the fact that I don't feel like a male. Never have seen myself as a male, no matter how hard I have tried (and being raised as a fundamentalist Christian and sent to reparative therapy programs THREE TIMES, boy how I tried!). Additionally, now that I have transitioned, I am living a much better life.

I can't speak for everyone but I can speak for me - so here I go. I had a full sex change because I felt like I had no other choice. I could cite any number of things but the thing is that there is a great amount of stigma about being a transsexual woman who hasn't finished her transition. I wanted to be "complete" and the surgery is one of the biggest things one can do in transition. I still need to finish electrolysis (I am truly blessed in that I never really had that much facial hair) and some cosmetic surgery to finish up the physical transition but I feel... good.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
03/08/2012 12:24 am  
"OnTheOtherHand" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
"OnTheOtherHand" wrote:
"Shiva" wrote:
As a physician, I can assure you that there is a difference at the physical level. As an energy feld consultant, I can tell you that there is a difference at the mental level. But once you get past that mental plane, certain distinctions begin to disappear. You know what is says in the book, right? Every man and every woman is a star.

The physical part of my transition is simply about reducing those differences as much as possible (usually, the detectable differences). As for the mental aspect, I feel that I am female mentally but concerned with being trans (a concern most genetic women do not have to concern themselves about).

Why are you concerned?
___________

Also, generally as per the thread... people say they are born homosexual (male/female), and people also say that they find themselves a male thinking they "should have been" or "should be" female, and vice versa.

It it not my intent to question anyone's choices in the matter. "Do what thou wilt..." But, in an effort to understand transgenderism (is it an ism?), what is it that makes people think they are not just feminine males or masculine females?

I guess what I'm wondering is, what is it that makes people actually want to go through with a full sex change? I know there are many different reasons, so a philosophical answer is not what I am looking for. What I am asking for, is individual reasons, which may or may not be philosophical.

Because... no genetic female who lives as female knows what it's like to transition, to live as a trans* person. I'm not sure how to explain it, tbh.

Why don't I see living as a feminine male acceptable? Well, I have tried that and that wasn't enough for me. Neither was crossdressing. The reason why and the problem with both is because of the fact that I don't feel like a male. Never have seen myself as a male, no matter how hard I have tried (and being raised as a fundamentalist Christian and sent to reparative therapy programs THREE TIMES, boy how I tried!). Additionally, now that I have transitioned, I am living a much better life.

I can't speak for everyone but I can speak for me - so here I go. I had a full sex change because I felt like I had no other choice. I could cite any number of things but the thing is that there is a great amount of stigma about being a transsexual woman who hasn't finished her transition. I wanted to be "complete" and the surgery is one of the biggest things one can do in transition. I still need to finish electrolysis (I am truly blessed in that I never really had that much facial hair) and some cosmetic surgery to finish up the physical transition but I feel... good.

Do you let people know you are transsexual? At what stage in a friendship/relationship?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
03/08/2012 1:00 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
"OnTheOtherHand" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
"OnTheOtherHand" wrote:
"Shiva" wrote:
As a physician, I can assure you that there is a difference at the physical level. As an energy feld consultant, I can tell you that there is a difference at the mental level. But once you get past that mental plane, certain distinctions begin to disappear. You know what is says in the book, right? Every man and every woman is a star.

The physical part of my transition is simply about reducing those differences as much as possible (usually, the detectable differences). As for the mental aspect, I feel that I am female mentally but concerned with being trans (a concern most genetic women do not have to concern themselves about).

Why are you concerned?
___________

Also, generally as per the thread... people say they are born homosexual (male/female), and people also say that they find themselves a male thinking they "should have been" or "should be" female, and vice versa.

It it not my intent to question anyone's choices in the matter. "Do what thou wilt..." But, in an effort to understand transgenderism (is it an ism?), what is it that makes people think they are not just feminine males or masculine females?

I guess what I'm wondering is, what is it that makes people actually want to go through with a full sex change? I know there are many different reasons, so a philosophical answer is not what I am looking for. What I am asking for, is individual reasons, which may or may not be philosophical.

Because... no genetic female who lives as female knows what it's like to transition, to live as a trans* person. I'm not sure how to explain it, tbh.

Why don't I see living as a feminine male acceptable? Well, I have tried that and that wasn't enough for me. Neither was crossdressing. The reason why and the problem with both is because of the fact that I don't feel like a male. Never have seen myself as a male, no matter how hard I have tried (and being raised as a fundamentalist Christian and sent to reparative therapy programs THREE TIMES, boy how I tried!). Additionally, now that I have transitioned, I am living a much better life.

I can't speak for everyone but I can speak for me - so here I go. I had a full sex change because I felt like I had no other choice. I could cite any number of things but the thing is that there is a great amount of stigma about being a transsexual woman who hasn't finished her transition. I wanted to be "complete" and the surgery is one of the biggest things one can do in transition. I still need to finish electrolysis (I am truly blessed in that I never really had that much facial hair) and some cosmetic surgery to finish up the physical transition but I feel... good.

Do you let people know you are transsexual? At what stage in a friendship/relationship?

Depends on several factors. I usually try to feel out the situation and I'm the first to admit that I don't always know. If I intend to get... intimate with someone, I do tell them before that stage. It is always in a public place (gotta think about my personal safety). And this is what's hard, because there are people that would reject me on that basis alone... either as a friend or as a lover.


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1842
03/08/2012 7:17 am  

"You said "big-time permanent" change. I know what you mean. It's a lasting life decision, one not made to ever be undone (is that even possible?). Yet, what do you think of this in relation to impermanence?"

Az-

The issue of "impermanence" is more "large scale," if you will. In this sense, "impermanence" overshadows all. We're a bit more focused with the concern of this thread. I think of Mr. Christopher Reeves. One moment he is a Hollywood Star braced for a comeback in the modern comic book film vogue. Next, a snap of the spine and he's spokesperson for the quadriplegic community. And-boom-he's dead.

Please don't get me wrong. I am not being nonchalant here. We will all follow Mr. Reeves into the Great Void. Personally (and as a person who has worked with the disabled community for two decades now) I think Reeves showed tremendous courage and spirit. He was a Being in Time who kept at Life until the Very End.

We can wax philosophical over "impermanence" until Nirvana but, as Beings in Time, we deal with the conditions of our existence. Certain steps change our Being in Time PERMANENTLY. Even physical change impacts our more subtle bodies (as we postulate them).

For myself, getting ears pierced or getting tattooed was a significant change. However, this seems to pale when compared to the alterations in one's sexual-bodily identity as being discussed here.

My own angle is to accept people wherever they are at. The issue is not a person's sexuality but the essential core of the Star which they are. I can be a hip-liberal with my "gay friends" but do I really like or connect with these people? Or is it about stroking my self-image as an "accepting person?"

My own take is that Life is precious, fleeting and wondrous. We are all fighting our way through Spacetime. Sometimes it takes a mortal threat to cut us down to priorities, to what we call "True Will."

I admire and honor all those who chuck the "prescribed path" and follow their gut. This may be the would-be doctor who spurns his or her family to become an actor/actress (whatever). But human beings who go under knife and shift from "Jane" to "John?" Well, that takes some serious guts. Think about having your own "manhood" removed and reconfigured on a surgical table. This is not some henna tattoo. This is about being Oneself in the World of Time.

Issues like this make me think of how Crowley was so appropriate as "Prophet" of the Aeon. He was bi-sexual at the very LEAST. Why? Was he not opening the Gate whereby human sexuality might be liberated from all past conceptions? Thus liberated, human beings, emerging and disappearing on the planet (within impermanence), might go forward and be what they ARE, DO what they WILL.

There are, I believe, some powerful metaphysical issues raised by consideration of why a "female" would incarnate as a "male" (and vice versa) but, if we aren't ready to go into such occult realities, we must, at the very least, embrace our fellow human beings as co-travelers in time.

This-BTW-isn't meant to be patronizing inclusiveness. I simply feel that every human being needs to be encountered on their own level. If that "level" is bewildering to us, so be it. Should we care, the Star that person IS may enhance the Star we are. We should not stand in their way and if we sojourn with them on the Path, we just may find some wisdom there.

After all, we hope that the same may be said of our own Starry Course.           


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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03/08/2012 7:44 am  

What a wonderful post, Kyle!


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
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Posts: 2964
03/08/2012 5:49 pm  
"kidneyhawk" wrote:
"You said "big-time permanent" change. I know what you mean. It's a lasting life decision, one not made to ever be undone (is that even possible?). Yet, what do you think of this in relation to impermanence?"

Az-

The issue of "impermanence" is more "large scale," if you will. In this sense, "impermanence" overshadows all. We're a bit more focused with the concern of this thread. I think of Mr. Christopher Reeves. One moment he is a Hollywood Star braced for a comeback in the modern comic book film vogue. Next, a snap of the spine and he's spokesperson for the quadriplegic community. And-boom-he's dead.

Sounds pretty impermanent to me.

"kidneyhawk" wrote:
Please don't get me wrong. I am not being nonchalant here. We will all follow Mr. Reeves into the Great Void. Personally (and as a person who has worked with the disabled community for two decades now) I think Reeves showed tremendous courage and spirit. He was a Being in Time who kept at Life until the Very End.

The fight for life, yes. Ultimately, it is a losing battle, but we fight as long as we can. Can't say enough about the benefits of the Will to Live.

On the Being in Time, I think you make an interesting point with the title. Even so, the Being in Time is in constant flux, just as Time does not stand still.

"kidneyhawk" wrote:
We can wax philosophical over "impermanence" until Nirvana but, as Beings in Time, we deal with the conditions of our existence. Certain steps change our Being in Time PERMANENTLY. Even physical change impacts our more subtle bodies (as we postulate them).

I'm not sure you can list one change that is permanent. You can try, and we can debate it, but I'm not sure it can be done. Nevermind, they say that the one thing that is permanent is that everything is impermanent.

"kidneyhawk" wrote:
For myself, getting ears pierced or getting tattooed was a significant change. However, this seems to pale when compared to the alterations in one's sexual-bodily identity as being discussed here.

It is one of degree, yes. I don't know the amount of people who have a hard time surviving and reproducing on account of getting tattoos, piercing, or even sex changes. The "hard facts" of that might be necessary for a determination of degree.

"kidneyhawk" wrote:
My own angle is to accept people wherever they are at. The issue is not a person's sexuality but the essential core of the Star which they are. I can be a hip-liberal with my "gay friends" but do I really like or connect with these people? Or is it about stroking my self-image as an "accepting person?"

I accept everyone. I accept them whether they are gay, straight, transsexual, homosexual, heterosexual... I even accept what I think are the worst two types of people on the planet - liars and thieves. The differences between people is again one of degree, imo.

"kidneyhawk" wrote:
My own take is that Life is precious, fleeting and wondrous. We are all fighting our way through Spacetime. Sometimes it takes a mortal threat to cut us down to priorities, to what we call "True Will."

Mortal threat - aka Trance of Sorrow, yes?

"kidneyhawk" wrote:
I admire and honor all those who chuck the "prescribed path" and follow their gut. This may be the would-be doctor who spurns his or her family to become an actor/actress (whatever). But human beings who go under knife and shift from "Jane" to "John?" Well, that takes some serious guts. Think about having your own "manhood" removed and reconfigured on a surgical table. This is not some henna tattoo. This is about being Oneself in the World of Time.

I'm not sure I would go that far with it. I agree it takes some guts, but many other things take guts. Again, a question of degree. I don't necessarily think anyone should receive a medal of honor for changing their bodily sex.

"kidneyhawk" wrote:
Issues like this make me think of how Crowley was so appropriate as "Prophet" of the Aeon. He was bi-sexual at the very LEAST. Why? Was he not opening the Gate whereby human sexuality might be liberated from all past conceptions? Thus liberated, human beings, emerging and disappearing on the planet (within impermanence), might go forward and be what they ARE, DO what they WILL.

It sounds like you are saying liberation depends on sex, sexual preference, or sexual image.

"kidneyhawk" wrote:
There are, I believe, some powerful metaphysical issues raised by consideration of why a "female" would incarnate as a "male" (and vice versa) but, if we aren't ready to go into such occult realities, we must, at the very least, embrace our fellow human beings as co-travelers in time.

Personally, I don't judge "who people are" by their looks or their gender. Every individual is thus free to make their own impression, by manifesting their thoughts, words, and deeds.

"kidneyhawk" wrote:
This-BTW-isn't meant to be patronizing inclusiveness. I simply feel that every human being needs to be encountered on their own level. If that "level" is bewildering to us, so be it. Should we care, the Star that person IS may enhance the Star we are. We should not stand in their way and if we sojourn with them on the Path, we just may find some wisdom there.

I agree.

"kidneyhawk" wrote:
After all, we hope that the same may be said of our own Starry Course.           

Oh yes. It's the Golden Rule to the IX*.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
03/08/2012 5:59 pm  

I think it may come down to, 'people just want to be happy in their own skin', even if they feel modification (of any kind) is necessary to accomplish that.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
04/08/2012 7:49 am  

`A change for the better`

S/s


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SatansAdvocaat
(@satansadvocaat)
Member
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Posts: 351
04/08/2012 12:11 pm  

What a long tangled thread this is....

My reason for posting is a statement in Kidneyhawk's recent, incredibly balanced posting, although I am inclined to regard it as more 'New Age' rather than 'New Aeon'- regarding AC: "He was b-isexual at the very LEAST".

What does this mean ? Did AC consider having transexual surgery to correct his bi-sexual tendencies ? Would he have ever invisaged such a self-indulgent 21st century medical technology ?

Sorry if I'm going to upset friends and people. But get magickally real.  Sexuality, for a species that is no longer dependent on the act as an essential means for survival, is a very individual thing. Celebrate the individual thing !

I think we ought to focus more on "the powerful metaphysical issues" of sexuality in incarnation, rather than celebrating surgical frivolity.

If you are incarnated as male or as female , then get on with it, explore the gender differentialities that go with it.

Kenneth Grant, I think its fair to say, was thoroughly heterosexual - no wonder seeing as he had a lifelong creative relationship with his shakti, Steffi; I do not share his aversion to anal sexual matters; but on a more mystical level he intimated that sexuality was a transcendent reality.

Is not that where our focus should be ?

Love is the law. love under will.

Satan's Advocaat.


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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
04/08/2012 12:37 pm  

Hi SA,

Sorry, but being transgender has quite a lot to do with the nuances of identity and quite little to do with sex. Those who opt for surgical interventions are not "correcting"bisexuality, homosexuality, or any other matter of sexuality. This is a common misconception. A saying that sometimes comes up to counter this point is "...its not who you want to go to bed with, but who you want to go to bed as."

Transsexuality has nothing at all to do with who you want to screw.

Your arguments fall well off the mark as they are preoccupied with sex and sexuality, both of which are entirely separate from gender and gender identity. Sex is in your pants, while gender is in your brain. Some people feel an incongruency between the physical body and the internal sense of self. IN the bases possible terms that a workable description of being transgender.
(There is actual neurological data to support the possibility that mistimed hormonal washes in the fetal brain can account for this... Thts just one theory among many...Science marches on)

This idea of surgery as the penultimate center of a transsexual person's life is quite dull and old.  To imagine it is reflects the woefully unimaginative manner in which the general population regards the subtleties of gender. It never ceases to amaze me how people who fancy themselves such deep thinkers fail to ponder, beyond the faintest surface scratch, what they think they know about sex, gender, and gender identity. 

"Satan'sAdvocaat" wrote:
If you are incarnated as male or as female , then get on with it, explore the gender differentialities that go with it.

How would you feel if I suggested that perhaps you were incarnated predisposed toward some medical issue... perhaps you should "get on with it," forgo any treatment,  and just explore the nuances of your affliction...

I think this might suitably illustrate how insensitive and willfully ignorant your statement is.

Kenneth Grant, I think its fair to say, was thoroughly heterosexual - no wonder seeing as he had a lifelong creative relationship with his shakti, Steffi; I do not share his aversion to anal sexual matters; but on a more mystical level he intimated that sexuality was a transcendent reality.

I fail to see what bearing Kenneth Grant's sex life should have on this discussion or any of our lives.

einD


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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04/08/2012 2:06 pm  

"How would you feel if I suggested that perhaps you were incarnated predisposed toward some medical issue... perhaps you should "get on with it," forgo any treatment,  and just explore the nuances of your affliction..."

einDoppleganger,

I feel that your statement is somewhat inaccurate. If I may use a rather crude example... Being "predisposed to a medical issue" is comparable to having a faulty plumbing system. In the case of transgendered individuals, the plumbing works fine. The 'issue' is created by a bad reaction to the shape of the cistern, not its functionality! Similarly, in your (now deleted) 'eye problem' example, transgendered individuals are not afflicted with defective eyes, they are reacting badly to a perception of these as being 'the wrong colour.'


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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
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Posts: 915
04/08/2012 2:41 pm  

Sorry RT, but transsexualism is a considered a medical condition according to the DSM and the AMA. The incongruity manifests as the sense the "cistern" is misshaped but the cause for this is generally accepted to be physiological, its source is still open to debate and research. In any case medical doctors agree the condition is best treated with medical intervention from hormone therapy and in some cases surgery. Current neurobiology points to physical causes for this condition in the brain... Some such research indicates that MtF transsexualism may result from a female differentiation in a genetic male of the BSTc portion of the hypothalamus, during interactions between the developing brain and fetal sex hormones; this brain region is essential to sexual feelings and behavior. The first such research was reported in 1995: See NATURE, 378: 60-70, 1995. There is also research which points to brain differences in FtM transsexuals.

But hey,  I'm sure the author of some marginally clever books on Aleister Crowley could teach the medical community a thing or two.
Get to it old boy!!

Yes, how very quick of you to note I edited my reply to SA to be more general than to mention the example of eye problems. The medical analogy is still accurate, however.

You keep pointing to the symptoms and not the cause. MRI scans show differences in the brains between transsexual people and "cisgender" people (cisgender is defined above if you bothered to read the thread). There is a physiological cause which is not yet fully understood but I have left you some links to peer reviewed clinical data on the topic below... I'm sure you care enough to follow up.  So yes, the medical analogy still remains. This isn't surgical addiction or some frivolous desire for cosmetic alterations.

**postscript edited for brevity**

All than can be said has been said, Even Az, who many years ago was uneducated on the issue, seems to have come around to some very real understanding because he invested in listening and learning about something outside his own experience. I can only hope some others can find it in themselves to extend the reach of their own understanding.

Some reading for you RT....

The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, May 2000, p. 2034-2041
Copyright 2000, The Endocrine Society Vol. 85, No. 5
Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus[/url:36n02ohu]

Gooren, L (2006). "The biology of human psychosexual differentiation". Hormones and behavior 50 (4): 589–601

Swaab, DF (2004). "Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation"

Garcia-Falgueras, A.; Swaab, D. F. (2008). "A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity".
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TScauses.html


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obscurus
(@obscuruspaintus)
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Posts: 315
04/08/2012 3:11 pm  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

I can only speak for myself.
I do not mean to enter the current argument. It is only self-expression.
I have never placed a sexual label of any kind upon myself, not bisexual, not homosexual, not heterosexual. I was for a time merely sexual in order to fulfill my biological function. We must after all create new flesh so that we may feel and experience. It was, during a period in this life, my main driving force and I pursued it with blind, passionate abandon. Not always with the right intention in mind.
Now though, sex has become an act of physical adoration. It has become a hymn of sorts, an act of devotion, no longer a driving force but a beautiful love song to my higher self. I no long manipulate or try to effect material change through its power. I believe that I have come to this by the fact that I did fully explore my sexual nature in the beginning stages of this life. Never once did it ever occur to me that I should let another human being take a knife, scalpel or any other kind of instrument and inject, add or subtract from this flesh that I wear. To do so, from my point of view seems to show a desire to not want to work through some issues. We are not here very long at all but I would imagine to some unhappy few it might feel like an eternity? I say this and it is not my intent to chafe, aggravate or piss anyone off. It is at worst perhaps my inability to understand another point of view? My body mutilation, other than tattoo, has gone no further than several months of razor cutting in an attempt to stop using the dreaded word "I".
So, I have been reading this thread with great interest in an attempt to learn and understand another perspective. Which so far seems to be alluding me.

Love is the law, love under will.


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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
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04/08/2012 3:29 pm  

Thanks for sharing your take obscuruspaintus. If you don't feel a disparity between your body and your gender identity thats a good thing. Congratulations. You are not transsexual. You can collect your "not trans*" prize at the door. 🙂

Now, to say those who have this experience are "not working through issues" is insensitive, judgmental, and wrong. This is not part of your lived experience so you really can't make such a broad judgment in good faith, can you? The process of undergoing transition is extremely trying and requires a high degree of commitment, time, energy, and can cause quite a bit of emotional pain. Its not undertaken lightly or with frivolity. In most cases it involves quite a bit of work with a therapist before one is even granted access to hormones.

It's very much a process of "working through issues."

In reality no one really needs to understand implicitly what it feels like to be trans*. Just try to understand that your lack of desire to  change your body to better reflect you sense of self says nothing other than you are not transgender... It does not invalidate the experience of trans* people nor does it privilege or validate your own cisgender existence. Your lack of desire for physical change is immaterial precisely because you are not transgender.


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obscurus
(@obscuruspaintus)
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04/08/2012 3:35 pm  

  93

Thanks for the prize einDopplganger.
And with that you may have the last word.

93/93


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pad631
(@pad631)
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Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 51
04/08/2012 5:47 pm  

Perhaps, the modern medicine does not knows enough about the issue, even today.
Especially if  does not possesses the knowledge about the identities. At least not enough.
If transsexuality is just a state of mind or of consciousness.
Not to mention the the pharmaceutical issues.

93


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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04/08/2012 7:42 pm  

ein, good to see you back.

On the issue of medical problems, alcoholism is now viewed as a disease. It would seem that every nuance of a human being that is not 'mainstream and sober' is slowly becoming some sort of disease. I'm not too sure I would jump on that boat where it is sailing.

I have but fleeting experience with transgender individuals myself, and this thread is really the most extensive communication I've had about the subject. So it behooves me personally to try and not make any conclusions.

However, I view the physical body as a machine. Any bells and whistles (such as tattoos and piercings) are decorations - images added onto the image of the body. I try not to interfere with what people do with their bodies, unless they are obviously harming themselves. I wonder though, if transgenderism is a matter of seeking to change the machine, the self-image, to match the self-image that one has of oneself, and I question whether or not that image is the proper self-image for that individual.

I suppose it would be a question each person considering a sex change has to answer before going through with the actual operation. But, I wonder how much of it is rooted in the sense of "it is my True Will", and how much of it is rooted in "it is in my desire to reshape the physical body to better fit the self-image I have come accustomed to."

I suppose, for some, just being a prissy guy or a butchy girl is not enough.


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MoogPlayer
(@moogplayer)
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Posts: 86
05/08/2012 2:35 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
I wonder though, if transgenderism is a matter of seeking to change the machine, the self-image, to match the self-image that one has of oneself, and I question whether or not that image is the proper self-image for that individual.

I suppose it would be a question each person considering a sex change has to answer before going through with the actual operation. But, I wonder how much of it is rooted in the sense of "it is my True Will", and how much of it is rooted in "it is in my desire to reshape the physical body to better fit the self-image I have come accustomed to."

I suppose, for some, just being a prissy guy or a butchy girl is not enough.

For whatever reason, we all make assumptions about Gender roles in our lives. It seems to me like the men who feel like they should really be women, are just identifying more closely with the idea of what a "woman" is, than to "what makes a man a man".

Maybe the ideal self image is closer to what he imagines a woman should resemble. Does this mean he is really a she? Well, not biologically... but maybe it's time we revisited these antiquated notions about gender and sexuality.

Personally, I think it's a little extreme to want to alter yourself so drastically as to get a sex change. In my mind this still does not change anything.

I don't think that any man can ever know what it's like to be a women, not even with a sex change. You may know what it's like to be a man that had a sex change who lives his life as a woman, but you can never ever really know what it is to be born a woman, and live life like a woman lives life.

Dressing like a women might teach you a thing or two about gender discrimination, and it may make you sympathetic toward other transgendered individuals, but it still does not change biological facts. Same goes for Women who feel like they should be men.


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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05/08/2012 4:05 pm  

einDoppleganger: "But hey,  I'm sure the author of some marginally clever books on Aleister Crowley could teach the medical community a thing or two. Get to it old boy!!"

The links I appreciated, the... hostility and sarcasm, I didn't! Your comment suggests that my "marginally clever" activities in one field disqualify an opinion in another?

If, for example, I visited my GP with a broken leg, I would not expect to be treated with "quite a bit of work with a therapist before one is even granted access to" medication. If, as your learned opinion suggests, Transgenderism is such a clear-cut "medical condition," why does the medical profession not immediately 'pump 'em full of hormones' and send 'em home happy?

Have you ever paused to consider a possibility that the - alleged - chemical imbalance which defines Transgenderism as a "medical condition" may be a physical response to a particular state of mind, and not the converse? 

Azidonis: "On the issue of medical problems, alcoholism is now viewed as a disease. It would seem that every nuance of a human being that is not 'mainstream and sober' is slowly becoming some sort of disease."

Indeed, and don't the 'victims' just love it!


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 3110
05/08/2012 5:58 pm  

It is nice to see that eindoppelganger has rejoined us.
I've made my sole contribution to this discussion some pages back, but since my point seems forgotten, would like to again ask:
How is it possible that people who post on the forums of a society dedicated to the legacy of a man whose first love was a FtM transgendered person are so closed-minded (verging on hostile) on transgender issues?
Does "Every man and every woman is a star" come with an asterisk ("provided they conform to my unexamined prejudices"?) or does it mean what it says?


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 4942
05/08/2012 8:05 pm  
"ignant666" wrote:
Does "Every man and every woman is a star" come with an asterisk ... ?

Thank you for an appropriate and insightful question. It is my understanding that (almost) everything written in this exciting forum is in the form of an asterisk.

Unfortunately, when it becomes absolutely realized, "Every man and every woman is a Star" is found in the esoteric realm of the "Core Star." That is, the physical body, the astral double, the mental unit, the Holy Guardian Angel, and one's thinking principle have all been nuked into cosmic dust. These are all levels of the human energy field (aura), which are all "asterisks" that are appended to a central fact. The "fact" is that every man and woman is a star. But not yet. We've only climbed the Tree up to Da'ath. Now what?

In a Deeper Dimension (more expanded, more inclusive), the "Body of Light" is ideally nothing more than a straight line with two (2) internal contact points: (the hara [life force] and the shen [consciousness],
- and two (2) external "terminals" (the core of the earth and the void). This "line" is what remains after the aura dimensions have been transcended, and it is the internal source of all external "lineage."

"Paper trails" are sometimes thought to be the real lineage :o[/align:285nk928]

These four points (earth, hara, shen & void) may safely be compared to the Middle Pillar of the Tree of Life. Think of it as an elevator ride back to your source.

This "line" (lineage) has its own characteristics, which might differ from some other person's "line." Thus ye have Star and Star, System and System ...

It is at this realm of the "line" that "others" are perceived as Stars. We're flitting around in Binah-Chokmah now - but there's still that yin-yang, bipolar opposite structure in play. Because a "line" has two ends. So we see that all opposites, including gender interactions on the physical-astral-emotional-mental levels of consciousness and their vehicles, are tied up inside the philosophy of extistentialism.

"This is individualization, and it is individuation, and its philosophy is that of Existentialism, which maintains that the primary reference point of abstract thinking must be the individual and his or her direct experiences. Scientific thinking and moral thinking simply do not provide sufficient information in order to understand human existence. Therefore, an expanded range of consciousness is necessary, governed by the model of authenticity. In the context of Existentialism, "authenticity" is being true to one's own spirit."

- City of the Sun[/align:285nk928]

This simple definition of extistentialism puts it up for consideration as an approved candidate for philosophical adoption by The Aeon of Horus, Ltd due to its profound emphasis on the individual, the key to Ra-Hoor's plan.

Everyone's "higher nature" (the Monad at Kether) is visible as the "Core Star."

[/align:285nk928]

The terms, absolutely realized, and central fact, used above, may be seen as referring to the Atman, the Will, which (who) is subject to dissolution in Shivamtadarshana.

The point of all this overwhelming point-of-view is that one needs to be standing in Chokmah, pretty close to Kether [note the path of the Fool, Atu I], to see this every man and every woman is a Star deal as a virtual reality ... or maybe a real virtue?

Then, and only then, is there no need for asterisks any more. Anything less always guarantees asterisks, footnotes, commentaries and grounds for dispute and other forms of confusion.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
05/08/2012 8:30 pm  

link insert without explanation


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obscurus
(@obscuruspaintus)
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Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 315
05/08/2012 9:04 pm  

  93

I've spent the last twelve years trying to simplify and empty my head. Now you want to fill it up with all that?
All I see is a wave of beautiful blue water which breaks at a sharp crest. Nothing before it, nothing behind it.
Just the razor edge of the apex.

93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
05/08/2012 9:32 pm  

Now, we've gone from a discussion of "Thelema and Transgender Issues" to a highly metaphysical discussion of Stars, Special Relativity, and the Tao.  We've had many opinions on the actual topic of the thread (some by those with actual experience in being/being with Transgenders, some otherwise intelligent opinions, and some downright ignorant and hostile ones too). 


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