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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
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05/08/2012 10:00 pm  
"R.T.Cole" wrote:
Your comment suggests that my "marginally clever" activities in one field disqualify an opinion in another?

No, RT, it suggests that your opinion is immaterial in light of the fact you have formed it without having read, researched, or experienced (directly or indirectly) anything trans* related... You realize that right?? You, and many others are in here throwing opinions around with no basis in anything but your own half informed prejudices. Even the most basic aspects of the science involved, the politics, the civil issues, the social issues around trans* folk you have no knowledge.  You don't have to be an expert but even a cursory google search would do... But it isn't about educating an understanding, its about having your opinion and airing it (even if its ass backward and uninformed). Its pretty much the story of this thread and it bemuses me that people can be so jammed up their own asses they don't recognize it. Basically its a festival of opinions that mostly seem fashioned out of "what grandpappy told me bout boyz and gurlz. " Even when a trans* person (or two, or three) tries to explain from lived experience,  they are either ignored or dismissed with another half assed "opinion."

If, for example, I visited my GP with a broken leg, I would not expect to be treated with "quite a bit of work with a therapist before one is even granted access to" medication. If, as your learned opinion suggests, Transgenderism is such a clear-cut "medical condition," why does the medical profession not immediately 'pump 'em full of hormones' and send 'em home happy?

How wonderfully condescending. Are you trying to be obtuse or are you just really.... Oh forget it...

A broken leg is not caught up in the social prejudices exposed in this thread by you and many like you. A broken leg has a fair bit more understanding as it can and does happen to *anyone.* Being trans isn't something most people experience and many that do never, ever admit to it. Those that do are met with the kind of crap unsolicited opinions that fill the past 7 pages or so....Oh also, a broken leg will not create a second puberty in an adult male or female and all the associated emotional upheaval that entails... you know that kind of thing usually goes well with some emotional support. The point of mentioning threapy was to counter these ridiculous claims that someone who seeks gender transition is failing "to work out some issues."

As for the therapy requirement, there is a movement away from these barriers to treatment which is called "gatekeeping." See, if you had googled just one article on trans* related issues gatekeeping would have come up. Many "informed consent" doctors who will treat without gatekeeping still strongly suggest some level of therapy because you run up against all manner of barriers from outside and inside. Its hard enough for someone transitioning without having to deal with the preconceived and ill-informed notions of the cis population at large...

Do you not see how insanely privileged, banal, and condescending it is to offer opinions on a topic on which you are demonstrably ignorant?

Let me rephrase. If this were a thread on say, Enochian... Would anyone be expected to listen and engage with the reader who came in with all sorts of opinions on the Enochian system if they had read none of the materials and/or performed none of the work? ) One can engage with the topic as a practitioner or as an academic, but in either case you should have some investment in the issue beyond a little pet notion you are desperate to air.

But here many of you are.. adding to the growing pile of flawed statements based on antiquated notions which could be avoided if the topic actually had any bearing on your life, which I might add, it does not; or if it at least captured your interest enough to research a bit before forming and sharing your opinions. 

Have you ever paused to consider a possibility that the - alleged - chemical imbalance which defines Transgenderism as a "medical condition" may be a physical response to a particular state of mind, and not the converse? 

You are a genius RT Cole. Like I said, put aside your next vanity press Crowley title and get your research to Johns Hopkins. You are a regular Harry Benjamin...
(Protip, if you find yourself asking yourself who Harry Benjamin is, then you might want to revisit my points above and try some google-fu)

Hi ignant666!! Thanks for the welcome back and thanks for reiterating your wonderful point!! Lets look at Crowley's first love again 🙂

ahhh, Venus Castina

Jerome Pollitt aka Diane De Rougy
http://zagria.blogspot.com/2009/01/herbert-charles-jerome-pollitt-1871.html

    'Pollitt was rather plain than otherwise. His face was made tragic by the terrible hunger of the eyes and the bitter sadness of the mouth. He possessed one physical beauty - his hair. This was very plentiful and he wore it rather long. It was what is called a shock. But its colour was pale gold, like spring sunshine, and its texture was of the finest gossamer..."

-Aleister Crowley

"I lived with Pollitt as his wife for some six months and he made a poet out of me"

-Aleister Crowley

[sub:25x0vwg5]You are likely to be eaten by a Grue....[/sub:25x0vwg5]


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Anonymous
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05/08/2012 10:48 pm  

einDoppleganger,

Quite frankly, your attitude is offensive and toxic.

"No, RT, it suggests that your opinion is immaterial in light of the fact you have formed it without having read, researched, or experienced (directly or indirectly) anything trans* related... You realize that right?? You, and many others are in here throwing opinions around with no basis in anything but your own half informed prejudices."

You know this for a fact? Seriously, do you know anything, at all, of my experiences in this field? Do you? In fact, you know nothing! Since you are willing to spout, with such self-appointed assurance, about a subject of which you are demonstrably ignorant, it stands to reason that your vitriolic comments are similarly based on an equal deficit of knowledge, and founded entirely on your own favoured brand of prejudice.

The rage and self-hatred you are projecting onto this thread speaks volumes about your own unresolved issues relating to gender matters, unrequited literary aspirations, and tainted attitude towards unfortunate simpletons like myself who lack the clarity of thought to see from your enlightened stance.


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MoogPlayer
(@moogplayer)
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06/08/2012 12:01 am  
"R.T.Cole" wrote:
Quite frankly, your attitude is offensive and toxic.

I have to agree... I did not mean to say anything offensive.

I was wondering what qualifies an individual as trans exactly? Some physiological cause? Or just a strong desire to act and dress opposite to how people expect someone to act and dress being a man/woman?

I don't really believe in reincarnation, or this guardian "angel" stuff, so I don't know how I would feel about someone saying whether their soul is inherently male or female.

I wonder, what is the basis on which trans individuals decide they "should" be a member of the opposite sex? Do they believe that nature, or god, or their angel or whatever "got it wrong"? Do they feel like society would better accept them, if they accept a new gender identity? Do they feel closer to being able to accept themselves by living according to an ideal self image? Do they feel like it's part of their initiation, and personal journey, to necessarily go through all of that in order to feel whole?

As a bisexual man, I have done plenty of effeminate things. I've never once thought that I should have been born differently though. I sometimes like music, movies, clothes, and etc. that my friends find "girly", and I'm ok with it. I don't feel like there is something wrong with me. Rather, I've always thought that societies conceptions of sexuality and gender roles is what's fu*ked.

It's hard to put myself in the shoes of a trans person who feels like they need a sex change. What is it that makes them so uncomfortable in their own skin? I've had to face my own homosexuality, and flesh out my own individual style, but I'm happier this way. I've never felt like I needed to hide behind any other identity.

Every man and woman is a star. They can dress however they want, love however they want, be whoever they want. Just don't forget: "Yea! Deem not of change: Ye shall be as ye are, & not other".


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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
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06/08/2012 12:22 am  

[img]

"R.T.Cole" wrote:
einDoppleganger,

Quite frankly, your attitude is offensive and toxic.

I'd say the same for your uninformed contributions, but hey, I already have!

You know this for a fact? Seriously, do you know anything, at all, of my experiences in this field?

Your posts have made this clear RT. I thought I had already explained this. Thats the problem with you (and others) chiming in here. Everyone is so quick to share an opinion with no basis in research or experience. Thats what privilege is all about though, you just expect your opinion to matter because no one ever gives your signals that it doesn't.

Since you are willing to spout, with such self-appointed assurance, about a subject of which you are demonstrably ignorant, it stands to reason that your vitriolic comments are similarly based on an equal deficit of knowledge, and based entirely on your own favoured brand of prejudice.

I dare say I am not ignorant on the topic... Calling me ignorant does not make me ignorant. I think my posts in this thread demonstrate a familiarity with the topic as well as a desire to hear the voices of others who are engaged with the matter at hand. They also show a general lack of patience with those who are speaking from a place of general privilege and ignorance. You live in a world where your opinion as a middle class white man is given a lot of weight. I'm sorry if you are uncomfortable with the experience of having your opinion called out for being irrelevant, but in this case it most certainly is... Had your contributions shown some degree of general familiarity with transgender issues (you are unfamiliar with gatekeeping for fucks sake!) then we might be discussing the topic and not your ass (which is showing. )

The rage and self-hatred you are projecting onto this thread speak volumes about your own unresolved issues relating to gender matters, unrequited literary aspirations, and your tainted attitude towards the unfortunate simpletons like myself who lack the clarity of thought to see from your enlightened stance.

I do have a decided lack of patience for the yammerings of the status quo cis male POV...  Yep, guilty as charged. In all seriousness your Crowley books are great *because* you are well versed on the topic. See how that works?? Your posts on transgender issues suck ass, because you know shit about it. Its a pretty cut and dried metric.

I'm sorry if my general frustration with multiple people has found its focus on your particular post RT. I really am but you kinda just jumped up with arms swinging into the cross-hairs like that damn dog in Duck Hunt.

I think I have said all I can on the topic. I don't want to stifle discussion by being overly negative 🙂

Im unfollowing but thanks for hearing me out.

PS RT, I really do love your books. I'm sorry for calling them "marginally clever." I have nearly all of them and they are among my favorites.


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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06/08/2012 12:48 am  

R.T. Cole: Perhaps eindoppelganger was doing you the courtesy of assuming that your rather old-aeonic comments about transgender issues were rooted in ignorance of such matters, rather than in day-to-day contact with trans people and study of the relevant debates?
While you point out that eindoppelganger "knows nothing" of your "experiences in this field", you don't actually say what they are or if they exist.


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Anonymous
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06/08/2012 1:54 am  

einDoppleganger,

"I really do love your books. I'm sorry for calling them 'marginally clever.' I have nearly all of them and they are among my favourites." Your insight with reference to this point assures me that there is some, albeit slim, hope for you. However, your all-encompassing assumptions (based exclusively on your selective interpretation of a few paragraphs ) will lose you points. Consider how someone (other than you) may feel when told, in no uncertain terms, and from a complete stranger: "Thats the problem with you (and others)..." Also, are "for fucks sake" and "Your posts on transgender issues suck ass, because you know shit about it" technical terms employed by high priests of the transgendered community? You are extremely forceful in demanding that "the ignorant" tread carefully, and with great respect, over sensitive transgender issues. Yet, you seem reluctant in the extreme to extend this basic courtesy to others, who may not share your opinions.

ignant666,

"While you point out that eindoppelganger 'knows nothing' of your 'experiences in this field,' you don't actually say what they are or if they exist." Given his comprehensive knowledge, I was rather hoping that einDoppleganger would provide this information on my behalf.  Incidentally, einDoppleganger's recent stereotyping of me as "male, white and middle-class, and of general privilege" has led to a distinct intuition that I was born in the wrong bank account... Advice, on a postcard, please, to... 


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Azidonis
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06/08/2012 2:16 am  

An Interlude from the Forum Guidelines:

"Foul or aggressive language, personal attacks and threats will not be tolerated. Offensive or abusive behaviour is not permitted: contributions must be constructive and polite. Unlawful or objectionable content is not permitted: harassing, defamatory, abusive, threatening, harmful, homophobic, racially offensive or otherwise objectionable items are not acceptable."

It's quite a decent thread overall, and does not deserved getting locked due to differences of opinion, perspective, or (apparently) degree of 'expertise'.


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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
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06/08/2012 7:31 am  
"R.T.Cole" wrote:
Given his comprehensive knowledge, I was rather hoping that einDoppleganger would provide this information on my behalf.  Incidentally, einDoppleganger's recent stereotyping of me as "male, white and middle-class, and of general privilege" has led to a distinct intuition that I was born in the wrong bank account... Advice, on a postcard, please, to... 

Way to try to shift the focus from your ignorant statements to questioning my "expertise" (your words).
Do you really need this spelled out??? Have you read the thread? I have made this clear. I am, and have for many years, been deeply involved in LBGTQ activism. Dear people in my life for years are trans* and various other shades of queer. I have actively perused the relevant scientific theory, queer theory, identity politics, postmodern theory, and popular activism around trans* issues. If you had actually read this very thread you would already be aware of this.

You don't need to do all this... You dont need to be an "expert" as you say. I'm just saying people need to go read what trans people say - go read the most recent writings on about and by trans folks... The mainstream media is locked in a 1970s - highly fetishistic demeaning and sexist view... Go do a tiny bit of reading and your perspective may very well change.

I'd ask you experience "in the field" but you clearly have none. And yes, I do think experience, or understanding of a topic is an absolute prerequisite to forming and sharing an opinion on it. I am stunned that some of you are suggesting this is a controversial stance. You would absolutely trounce an uninformed poster spouting nonsense on Malkuth, Yesod, Thoth, I Ching, Enochian, Golden Dawn, or Crowley's legacy... And yet here you are making these grossly uninformed judgments. Its astounding.

Suggested reading

Here you can read the experience of trans people (male, female, and other) in their own words... These are some bright men and women. Some of these people are PHDs, medical doctors, biologists, journalists, they all have voices on this subject that you need to be listening to instead of your own.

Whipping Girl - Julia Serrano
Transgender History - Susan Stryker
Gender Outlaw - Kate Borenstein
Gender Trouble: Feminism and the Subversion of Identity - Judith Butler
Transgender Warriors - Leslie Feinberg
Stone Butch Blues - Leslie Feinberg


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 Anonymous
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06/08/2012 7:54 am  

Well said! einDoppelganger.


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 Anonymous
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11/08/2012 3:34 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
However, I view the physical body as a machine. Any bells and whistles (such as tattoos and piercings) are decorations - images added onto the image of the body. I try not to interfere with what people do with their bodies, unless they are obviously harming themselves. I wonder though, if transgenderism is a matter of seeking to change the machine, the self-image, to match the self-image that one has of oneself, and I question whether or not that image is the proper self-image for that individual.

I suppose it would be a question each person considering a sex change has to answer before going through with the actual operation. But, I wonder how much of it is rooted in the sense of "it is my True Will", and how much of it is rooted in "it is in my desire to reshape the physical body to better fit the self-image I have come accustomed to."

But if the machine is not working properly, if it is producing highly undesirable results and embarassing you as a result, is it not incumbent to repair and retool the machine? I love my MacBook Pro but it's getting to it's second birthday and I'm feeling the need to max out the RAM and upgrade to a Solid State Hard drive because it is starting to show performance problems that make me cringe a bit. I have issues with my body but considering I can't just get a new one, I need to repair and upgrade the one I have now so that it works best for me.

It's not so much a self-image that one becomes accustomed to, given how the general society downs trans* people so much. Hell, it would be easier to be gay or lesbian than it would to be trans*. However, as a cis person, you would not understand the need a trans* person has to live in the gender they are rather than the one people think they are and have encouraged them to be simply because of how their genitals looked at birth.


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pad631
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11/08/2012 5:47 am  

I believe that medicine still lacks sufficiently good tools, to have done such operations.
Safely, painlessly, aesthetically beautiful, etc.
The biological machine has its disadvantages, as well as mechanical.
First of all, it was short-lived, but if one believes that has enough time to do so, in his life, then ok.

But why not to do first of all, a kind of self-analysis,
maybe somewhere inside our lies hidden the Oedipus complex.

What I want to say, in the end. No trans person should be discriminated in any way.
Personal and private feelings or free will of such persons are in the first place.

93


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pad631
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11/08/2012 6:41 am  
"pad631" wrote:
No trans person should be discriminated in any way.
Personal and private feelings or free will of such persons are in the first place.

The same goes for every other person.
After all, everyone is different, every man and woman is a star.


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Azidonis
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11/08/2012 10:01 am  
"OnTheOtherHand" wrote:
But if the machine is not working properly, if it is producing highly undesirable results and embarassing you as a result, is it not incumbent to repair and retool the machine?

Do you think the body has any way of knowing, let alone caring, whether it is male or female? You are the one that does that, not the body.


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SatansAdvocaat
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11/08/2012 12:21 pm  

A week ago, I did my posting on this thread.  I'd been avoiding it because it did not especially interest me and I was aware that it was one of those threads where passions were running high.  Then I thought I'd read Kidneyhawk's contribution and surprisingly he made a statement which irked me into one of those 'hot off the pen' SA diatribes that I'm prone to occasionally: a quick cut-and-thrust guerrilla incursion with the intent of causing maximum mayhem and not taking any prisoners.  Its not deliberate policy to go off and lurk in the undergrowth for several days, but when I got back online on Monday pm, there were as usual several more pages of postings to contend with and I thought simply sod it, I don't have the time despite the fact that EinD (not surprisingly) declared that I was ignorant and stupid.

Despite whatever recent research I may have been missing, I do not accept that gender and sexuality can be separated. In fact, it is sex that defines gender unless my albeit distant biological and sociological education has become badly scrambled. I consulted my copy of "The Concise Oxford Dictionary" and checked out "sex" and "gender", also "androgyne" and "hermaphrodite" and their derivatives, and was given no cause to readdress my opinion.  Dictionary did not contain any entry for "transgender" - it is a Ninth Edition, 1998 corrected reprint, after all - but it did contain "transsexual" which deserves quoting here:

"adj. having the physical characteristics of one sex and the supposed psychological characteristics of the other; n. a transsexual person; a person whose sex has been changed by surgery."

Interestingly enough this entry was three above that for "transubstantiation".

I trust that more recent editions will have written this in whiter words and now include a full page entry for "transgender" replete with a full listing of medical and sociological citations. (OK thats the sarcastic bit done with; if we all wrote our individual dictionaries on the basis of what we consider important - well, you get my drift).

I aver that Sex is as much in the head as it is in the pants, EinD, et vice versa; or to be more precise, Sex is as much in the Qoph centre as it is in the Genital centre, or the Perineal centre more comprehensively.  When these two/three centres are properly aligned and functioning, we not only get good sex, but magical sex and even "love under will" chemico-sexual Agape.

Frustratingly, I'm going to have to finish this shortly, before they chuck me out of the library at closing time.

To be contd. Love is the law, love under will.

S.A.


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einDoppelganger
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13/08/2012 3:26 am  

For what its worth SA, I still have great love and admiration for you and your writing even if I find your opinion on this topic flawed.  I didn't call you "ignorant and stupid" I called your statements"insensitive and willfully ignorant ."

You said you wanted mayhem...

einD


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SatansAdvocaat
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13/08/2012 3:36 pm  

Actually, I believe its worth a lot einD, and yes I think its marginally better to be "insensitive and willfully ignorant" than "ignorant and stupid" - thanks for pointing this out.

Can we deal with a bit more mayhem, as I do feel the need to clarify a little more on what I stated originally.

On the subject of medical conditions/surgery: How would I feel ?  Well, as the result of a senseless and stupid accident (aren't they all?) in 2003, I needed serious abdominal/bowel surgery; as I was going under anaesthetic, affirming 93, I gave myself 50/50, and in actual fact I was only a few hours away from death.  But I came around again with a new bodily transformation to contend with, a temporary ileostomy which I had for nine months before it was successfully reversed and my bodily plumbing was restored to its usual functioning. The stoma nurses have to advise and encourage individuals who are going to be faced with this condition for the rest of their lives, but its hard to truly love something that looks like a giant rat's penis sticking out of the side of your belly.
More fun at the end of 2010, when I developed a detached retina in my left eye which required surgery to prevent me from going eventually blind in that eye.  Successful, I'm pleased to say, despite a small amount of visual distortion.
I don't think I'd be far wrong  to say that hundreds of people are routinely dying and going blind in poor countries all over the world for lack of basic and essential surgery.
This was where I was coming from when I referred to "21st Century surgical frivolity".  Cruel and provocative of me all the same . So, mea culpa.

Herbert Charles Jerome Pollitt was indeed Crowley's first love.  I've been studying Chapter 17 of "The Confessions" for the essential account and I was ploughing through my copy of Motta's "Sex and Religion" Equinox, yesterday evening.  I'm inclined to go along with Motta's assessment of Pollitt as something of a selfish, shallow control-freak.  Crowley was well aware that he would have to give him up to pursue his true vocation in magic and mysticism and fortunately he did.  Most significantly, as part of this process, he met and fell madly in love and lust with Rose Kelly who proved to be the Scarlet Woman and Pythoness whose role was integral to receiving The Book of the Law.

True, in 1905 he commenced work on the Bagh-i-Muattar and its homosexual poetry, a work which is dedicated to and probably inspired by Pollitt.  The work probably holds the record for being the only mystical text containing the word podex - anus, or rectum - more times than it was ever cited in ancient Latin literature, or any other literature for that matter.  But AC himself was aware that:
"It is especially to be noted that, although I have picked every kind of magical and mystical lore into the volume, there is nowhere any reference to The Book of the Law.  I was setting my whole strength against the Secret Chiefs.  I was trying to forget the whole business." ("Confessions" Ch.53 and page 481 in my old Bantam pb.)

So there you have it; I think the distinction is clear.


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Los
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14/08/2012 4:49 am  
"Satan'sAdvocaat" wrote:
Crowley was well aware that he would have to give [Pollitt] up to pursue his true vocation in magic and mysticism and fortunately he did.  Most significantly, as part of this process, he met and fell madly in love and lust with Rose Kelly who proved to be the Scarlet Woman and Pythoness whose role was integral to receiving The Book of the Law.

True, in 1905 he commenced work on the Bagh-i-Muattar and its homosexual poetry, a work which is dedicated to and probably inspired by Pollitt.  The work probably holds the record for being the only mystical text containing the word podex - anus, or rectum - more times than it was ever cited in ancient Latin literature, or any other literature for that matter.  But AC himself was aware that:
"It is especially to be noted that, although I have picked every kind of magical and mystical lore into the volume, there is nowhere any reference to The Book of the Law.  I was setting my whole strength against the Secret Chiefs.  I was trying to forget the whole business." ("Confessions" Ch.53 and page 481 in my old Bantam pb.)

So there you have it; I think the distinction is clear.

Are you trying to imply that Crowley's writing of homosexual poetry was a means of turning away from Book of the Law and its heterosexual imagery?


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SatansAdvocaat
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16/08/2012 4:40 pm  

AC states that Pollitt shared no interest in his magical and mystical - his spiritual - aspirations; implies that he was very possessive as a lover and companion and that he realised that he would have to give him up to fulfill his aspirations.

As we know, he did go on to fulfill these aspirations and receive The Book of the Law.  We know also, that he rejected for sometime, much of what was in its text; it did not square with his general philosophical perspective as he had formulated it so far.

The Bagh-i-Muattar is more than homosexual poetry; it deals with "magical and mystical lore", but its in total contrast to AL with its heterosexual imagery.  Its AC who points out that there is no reference whatsoever to the latter in the former and acknowledges that this was a deliberate intention on his part; in pouring his creative energy into the BiM, he was putting off having to come to terms with AL.

I don't think that I need to try to imply anything.


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Los
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16/08/2012 5:29 pm  
"Satan'sAdvocaat" wrote:
I don't think that I need to try to imply anything.

Well, I was going to raise the objection that it's rather simplistic to take homosexuality or homosexual imagery as a revolt against the Book of the Law, especially given the fact that Crowley appears to have been bisexual (or even prefered male lovers) throughout his life.

His apparent "rebellion"against the Book of the Law can be seen in his steadfast refusal to mention it. The sexuality expressed in his poetry does not necessarily represent any sort of rebellion. Of course, those of us who like to entertain the possibility that Liber AL was written later than 1904 find this possibility consistent with the fact that there is "nowhere any reference to the Book of the Law."


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SatansAdvocaat
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17/08/2012 2:09 pm  

Personally, I have no problems with the clear evidence that AC was bisexual throughout his life.

AL.II.57: He that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is filthy shall be filthy still.
AL.II.58: Yea! deem not of change: ye shall be as ye are, & not other....

Right, just to clarify and avoid naive or deliberate misinterpretation of my intentions, I am not making any suggestion here that any particular form of sexuality is either "righteous" or "filthy".  It just seems to me that this has relevance here.  The understanding of these verses with reference to gender or sexual matters, or sin or virtue, or everything else, is actually an area of consideration worthy of its own separate topic: perhaps we need a new "Centre of pestilence" category, or maybe just carry on as usual  😉

Same goes for rewriting the history of when Liber AL was received/written - Not 1904 e.v. ?? Satan wept, isn't anything sacred anymore ?  😮


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Los
 Los
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17/08/2012 3:02 pm  
"Satan'sAdvocaat" wrote:
I am not making any suggestion here that any particular form of sexuality is either "righteous" or "filthy".

No one's saying you are. But you *are* implying that writing homosexual poetry was part of Crowley's supposed "rebellion" against the Book, and I find that implication unpersuasive because the Bagh-i-Muattar was hardly the only time Crowley celebrated the love of men. What do you make, for example, of his 1916 observation, "I am inclined to believe that the XIth degree [i.e. anal magical workings, in practice usually homosexual for Crowley] is better than the IXth degree [heterosexual magical workings]...Oh, how superior is the Eye of Horus to the Mouth of Isis"?

My point is that these later manifestations of homosexuality and later expressions of preference for male lovers don't constitute a "rebellion" against the Book of the Law, and I am thus inclined to consider any "rebellion" in the 1904-1909 period to involve something other than homosexuality, such as, for example, not mentioning the Book.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
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17/08/2012 3:10 pm  
"Los" wrote:
[But you *are* implying that writing homosexual poetry was part of Crowley's supposed "rebellion" against the Book, and I find that implication unpersuasive because the Bagh-i-Muattar was hardly the only time Crowley celebrated the love of men.

I didn't see any such implication in the remarks of Satan'sAdvocaat. You're wrong here.


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 Anonymous
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17/08/2012 6:33 pm  

What has homosexuality got to do with transgender?
...oh and if more people like Crowley 'celebrated the love of men`, wouldn't the World be a more peaceful place?

S/s


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
24/11/2012 1:56 am  

On Homophobia

hermaphrodite_transgender_transgendered_gods_god.jpg

I rather take the opposite position to those who consider themselves to be Thelemites but who restict themselves to purely heterosexual relationships and who choose to have homophobic attitudes. Those who are exclusively heterosexual in the Thelemic community and who have homophobic (a fear of same gender love) attitudes seem to me to be anyway in the minority. Having been active in the British Neopagan movement for many years, I find that the overwhelming majority of people tend towards acceptance of other's sexuality and tend to be anti-homophobic, and I would expect that to be the case among most of the contributors on this forum also, though I have not yet had the chance to get to know most of you.

That which we fear, we automatically hate; that which we hate, we seek to destroy.

Sex is a magickal act, and erotic love between males is in my opinion essential to becoming a loving person who can be loved by others, for the males are half the human race, and "eros" is the human adults favoured form of love, and if women can love and be loved by men and be happy about it, then why cannot men love other men in the same way.

Homphobia is like a hateful spell which casts love away the spell of Eros between one half of the human race. It is a rejection of love.

Anyway, I have an extended essay on sex magick and hermaphroditism ("Magick in Theory and Practice (2012)" on: http://www.michaelsherlock.org/forum/symbolism-esoteric-studies/magick-in-theory-and-practice-(2012)/ ) so I won't ramble on at length about the subject here as I would just have to restate what has already been written.

Narrow is the Path to Heaven on Earth.

I have to "out"myself as being very narrow minded when it comes to my understanding of Crowley. Clearly he was a polythiest, a necromancer, a bisexual, a sex magickian, a Kabbalist, a psychonaut / drug fiend and a sometimes transvestite, and I am all of those descriptions. My essay "Magick in Theory and Practice (2012)" is not a commentary on Crowley's work by the same name, but it is my personal perspective; that of a person who grew up in a different era to Crowley. There may be many gods, but in addition, if there is an original singular origin to our multiverse, the Divine Hermaphrodite, She could not be male nor female, not if we are Her children created in Her image and likeness, and she could not be homophobic, not when every species of higher animals practice same gender eroticism, not when vast swathes of Her human creations are not exclusively heterosexual. If we are designed, we are designed this way; we are "Born this Way."

We are born to love. Why restrict love?

Lux

love_gods_sex_gods.jpg


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