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Azidonis
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10/02/2012 12:39 am  
"Dar" wrote:
We seem to have ventured from 'Thelema and world peace' to the topic of .... "whas it like ... really ... to be a hermit?" 

"Is it about not giving a fuck?"  No...
"Is it about giving a fuck?" No...

When we talk about 'love under will' - we aren't talking about conditional love, as far as I can see.  So that makes the question about giving or not giving a fuck null and void in Thelema.

Disputations welcome.  🙂

Selfishness and inner peace, selfishness and world peace, conditions in which humans may reach (or fail to reach) inner peace, world peace (or not) as a result (or lack) of the same, the possible 'difference' between the arhat and the bodhisattva, etc.

A pack of rabid dogs will never be at peace. A pack of dogs at peace will have quite the task when a rabid one is thrown into the pen.


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 Anonymous
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10/02/2012 2:27 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
"Dar" wrote:
We seem to have ventured from 'Thelema and world peace' to the topic of .... "whas it like ... really ... to be a hermit?" 

"Is it about not giving a fuck?"  No...
"Is it about giving a fuck?" No...

When we talk about 'love under will' - we aren't talking about conditional love, as far as I can see.  So that makes the question about giving or not giving a fuck null and void in Thelema.

Disputations welcome.  🙂

Selfishness and inner peace, selfishness and world peace, conditions in which humans may reach (or fail to reach) inner peace, world peace (or not) as a result (or lack) of the same, the possible 'difference' between the arhat and the bodhisattva, etc.

A pack of rabid dogs will never be at peace. A pack of dogs at peace will have quite the task when a rabid one is thrown into the pen.

Using this metaphor, what is the rabies you refer to in human beings?


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 Anonymous
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10/02/2012 2:29 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
One of the dangers in Thelema is the reinforcement of the idea of self to a degree in which one is simply unable to surrender that self in the Abyss.

Actually, Az, one of the dangers of the A.'.A.'. System, and of other esoteric systems, is that one apparently can miss the very basics of Thelema worrying about things such as the Abyss. We are manifest, apparently, as individuals for a reason, as I see it, and each plane is to be mastered without confusing it with other planes. I think you are hung up on transcending an illusion that you created for yourself deliberately, because you can't recall why you created it. The idea is to figure out why and the clues are hidden in your own nature. You are trying to transcend your own individual nature and cheat your way back to your True state, before these self-Willed conditions were imposed by incarnation and birth.

You are supposed to find Joy in the process, for it cannot harm thee at all. 🙂

This is the esoteric version of what Los has been telling you. You might want to check out the OTO System, which does compliment the A.'.A.'. System nicely.

Or, become a Buddhist?


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Azidonis
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10/02/2012 3:55 am  

Hugs and kisses. I love you all.


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obscurus
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10/02/2012 4:27 am  

93

Goodnight John-boy!

93/93


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Azidonis
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10/02/2012 6:57 am  
"Camlion" wrote:
You might want to check out the OTO System, which does compliment the A.'.A.'. System nicely.

Or, become a Buddhist?

As if there's a point to either?


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 Anonymous
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10/02/2012 7:38 am  

Let me return to the topic of the thread for just a moment.  I don't see World Peace as something that, at this point in the Aeon of Horus (y'know all that War & Vengeance and such), is of much concern to Thelemites.  After all, the Planet must be Bathed in Blood to make Way for the Child.  Of course, I am one of those Thelemites whose favourite chapter of AL is the 3rd, and am sick to death of all that peace and love hippy utopian bullshit....

Cam,
That's a great post! (I know that's surprising coming from me, a "Typhonian", but you do occasionally come out with some real gems 😉 ) I would only add this:

From Liber LXV
20. A little crazy boy that rode with me spake unto the swan, and said:
21. Who art thou that dost float and fly and dive and soar in the inane? Behold, these many æons have passed; whence camest thou? Whither wilt thou go?
22. And laughing I chid him, saying: No whence! No whither!
23. The swan being silent, he answered: Then, if with no goal, why this eternal journey?
24. And I laid my head against the Head of the Swan, and laughed, saying: Is there not joy ineffable in this aimless winging? Is there not weariness and impatience for who would attain to some goal?
25. And the swan was ever silent. Ah! but we floated in the infinite Abyss. Joy! Joy!
  White swan, bear thou ever me up between thy wings!
26. O silence! O rapture! O end of things visible and invisible! This is all mine, who am Not.


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 Anonymous
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10/02/2012 9:17 am  

I don't see the Aeon as being one of war and vengeance.  Ra Hoor Khuit says he's a god of war and vengeance, but he also says he is half of the twin god - Horus, so his brother Hoor pa Kraat must be a god of peace and forgiveness.  As has been said before on this thread - war and peace are two sides of the same coin... and the same god or principle or (to put it in Crowleys terms) 'literary convenience'.

If the Aeon is about anything at all, then it's about consciousness expansion - but that doesn't mean you have to go to Goa!  😀

       


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 Anonymous
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10/02/2012 9:44 am  

... although saying all that, the ending of one aeon and the birth of a new one seems to be marked by some type of extreme disequilibrium in the affairs of the species that generates new growth.  Perhaps war is the engine of disequilibrium then, and peace the desire or direction towards greater equilibrium?         


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 Anonymous
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10/02/2012 10:29 am  
"N.O.X" wrote:
Cam,
That's a great post! (I know that's surprising coming from me, a "Typhonian", but you do occasionally come out with some real gems 😉 ) I would only add this:

From Liber LXV
20. A little crazy boy that rode with me spake unto the swan, and said:
21. Who art thou that dost float and fly and dive and soar in the inane? Behold, these many æons have passed; whence camest thou? Whither wilt thou go?
22. And laughing I chid him, saying: No whence! No whither!
23. The swan being silent, he answered: Then, if with no goal, why this eternal journey?
24. And I laid my head against the Head of the Swan, and laughed, saying: Is there not joy ineffable in this aimless winging? Is there not weariness and impatience for who would attain to some goal?
25. And the swan was ever silent. Ah! but we floated in the infinite Abyss. Joy! Joy!
  White swan, bear thou ever me up between thy wings!
26. O silence! O rapture! O end of things visible and invisible! This is all mine, who am Not.

Thank you for the kind words, N.O.X., but this is a very odd sync. I was thinking of quoting that very piece from Liber LXV, rather than using my own words, and it was running through my head at the time, but then I said to myself, "Az must surely already know this one by heart," so I didn't.

"N.O.X" wrote:
Let me return to the topic of the thread for just a moment.  I don't see World Peace as something that, at this point in the Aeon of Horus (y'know all that War & Vengeance and such), is of much concern to Thelemites.  After all, the Planet must be Bathed in Blood to make Way for the Child.  Of course, I am one of those Thelemites whose favourite chapter of AL is the 3rd, and am sick to death of all that peace and love hippy utopian bullshit....

Yeah, it's funny how selective our memories are, even with such a tiny Book as Liber AL. Chapter III invokes near total amnesia, or silly rationalizations. People prefer to key on the word "Love" in Liber AL, without any regard for its very unique usage in that Book, and ignoring Crowley's attempts at explaining the AGAPE formula. Remember the thread here on 'unconditional love and Thelema,' or something like that? Life is all about conditions, conditions imposed by our voluntary, eager, division into duality - just to enable the chance of Union. Perfection cannot appreciate itself until it experiences itself as imperfection, it's that simple. 

As for "the Planet Bathed in Blood," we have to ask ourselves, "What good have thousands of years of 'compassion' really done for this planet?" All of the old aeon religions are based upon this idea, in some perverse form or another, and each with the most noble of intentions. Compassion, sympathy, empathy, charity and self-sacrifice in the interest of these ideas. These ideas encourage weakness, as when carrying a person around all the time eventually leads to their being unable to stand and walk on their own.

I know that these words seem unkind to many, but the real unkindness lies in failing to encourage Strength in our fellow man. We are very near the point where these unnatural ideas are going lead to an Adjustment in our behavior. No tyrant is going to rise and slaughter millions of the weakest folks, that's already happened and that was just the beginning. I think economic collapse is next, there is only so much money that can be printed and given away to the weakened folks or spent on stupid military crusades before the coffers finally run dry. This is Nature's way of telling us something's wrong, with a kick in the balls.

So yes, I think Chapter III will come to pass, not with another Hitler or some such, but with something far worse. I think that the weakened, no longer supported artificially because the money's all gone, will prey upon the stronger, until the stronger are gone. Then folks will lament over not heeding Chapter III at the turn of last century when it was Spoken.

I sincerely hope that Az transcends it all before it is too late. 🙂


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 Anonymous
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10/02/2012 12:22 pm  

I'm not sure how an economic collapse would be natures way of telling us anything, unless that collapse was caused by a dearth of usable resources.  But even if that's true and there is a catastrophic economic collapse, as tends to happen in the cycle of history, wouldn't that also be an opportunity to change the nature of the economy?  There are all sorts of idea's floating around and some that have been put into practise - like the carbon credits.  Or perhaps Gene Roddenberry had the right idea?

I'm also not sure what you would consider 'artificial support' Camlion?  The most basic forms of 'artificial support' came about as the result of agricultural practises in the Aeon of Isis.  The current economy and business of the state is to manage the distribution of resources, just as it was in the times of ancient Egypt and Babylonia.  Obviously - in those times the state run grain houses gave grain to the populace regardless of how 'strong' or 'weak' they were.  In return, folks were able to specialise their labours.  The same holds true today, so I don't understand this attitude that says any government support of the individual is artificial and fosters weakness.  It also fosters liberty.  Society has become so complex that we have become nations of specialists now.  If we on this forum just listed our occupations and trades, how many of us would be working directly in area's of survival value that could see us through an economic collapse? How many are hunters or farmers or blacksmiths?  Probably a tiny percentage.  Does that mean we're all being artificially supported by our modern societies and huge cities?

What does 'weak' and 'strong' really mean in this context?     


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Los
 Los
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10/02/2012 2:22 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
This is the esoteric version of what Los has been telling you.

Pretty much, yeah.

I'd only quibble with the bit about "We all apparently become individuals for a reason" because the way you've phrased this implies intentionality, when there actually is none.


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Los
 Los
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10/02/2012 2:23 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
Hugs and kisses. I love you all.

It's times like these that I'm glad I got my cooties shot in the first grade.


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 Anonymous
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10/02/2012 2:54 pm  
"Los" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
Hugs and kisses. I love you all.

It's times like these that I'm glad I got my cooties shot in the first grade.

I've always rather like the way men will embrace and kiss each other.  I find it... very stirring.  😀     


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Shiva
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10/02/2012 3:42 pm  

I just spent 30 minutes composing a masterpiece reply to NOX's hippy love and peace observation. Then, without warning or notice, or even a phone call, my "preview" box just disappeared. My statements have become as ephemeral as "World Peace." Tough, eh?

Today's Word of the Law is "Tough." That means: "Functionality is Impaired."


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Azidonis
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10/02/2012 4:17 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
I sincerely hope that Az transcends it all before it is too late. 🙂

There's nothing to transcend.

Here I am trying to have a discussion about what other people see, as they have told me as much, and you just continually try to point it back to me.

Whatever.

The "aeon" game? Come on, really?


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 Anonymous
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11/02/2012 11:20 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
The "aeon" game? Come on, really?

Well, yes.

Every so often, the collective 'we' manage to wake up from history and our "trajectory" (borrowing now from Kyle, in place of my customary choice, "evolution") changes markedly enough to notice in real-time (almost). The last century or so has been unlike any in human history, in too many ways to enumerate here. The older ways have lapsed, their validity has expired and we know it - although we do tend to repeatedly doze back off into denial and cling to bits of them out of habit and without due reevaluation.   

"Shiva" wrote:
I just spent 30 minutes composing a masterpiece reply to NOX's hippy love and peace observation. Then, without warning or notice, or even a phone call, my "preview" box just disappeared. My statements have become as ephemeral as "World Peace." Tough, eh?

It's happened to me, too. My first thought is usually, "Why this damned resistance?" (Best to 'select all' and 'copy' periodically, to fortify the Circle. 😉

I hope that you can recreate it, because I'm interested in the old "hippy love and peace" thing. What it really was and what it really meant and what really became of it and why. It's a piece of cultural history that no one has really done justice to yet, and that particular miscarried fetus deserves a proper forensic analysis by a qualified cultural pathologist through a truly Thelemic lens.

"Los" wrote:
"Camlion" wrote:
This is the esoteric version of what Los has been telling you.

Pretty much, yeah.

I'd only quibble with the bit about "We all apparently become individuals for a reason" because the way you've phrased this implies intentionality, when there actually is none.

Chalk it up to the individual taking the optimal degree of responsibility for himself, or herself.


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Shiva
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11/02/2012 2:59 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
I just spent 30 minutes composing a masterpiece reply to NOX's hippy love and peace observation. Then, without warning or notice, or even a phone call, my "preview" box just disappeared. My statements have become as ephemeral as "World Peace." Tough, eh?

Camlion responded: "It's happened to me, too. I hope that you can recreate it, because I'm interested in the old "hippy love and peace" thing."

[move:2j7u1v5c]Short Version[/move:2j7u1v5c]

Hippies, Love, Peace and LSD were frowned upon by the Establishment. They were ground into the dust. What emerged was The New Age Movement, with seminars and techniques that sold for (usually) big bucks. Unfortunately, the results left the participants "high" and enthused for 6 weeks (more or less - a fairly standard time span). Then it wore off. It was/is ineffectual in the long run, because it required no on-going WORK (practices).

The hippies (et al) had legal LSD that quickly became illegal. They were (possibly-probably) right, but they failed to recognize the Black Lodge aspect of the reigning Military-Industrial Complex Establishment. They rarely incorporated martial arts training into their curriculum (the mentality of it, in this case, not the actual confrontation and combat readiness).

The New Age Movement (still running strong today) had/has one BIG flaw. "It is easy," they say. Pay here and now and we'll give you the secret.

But it (the Path) is NOT easy under any circumstances. After all, we are trying to move in the most difficult of directions: Straight up!

[move:2j7u1v5c]This has been a short summary[/move:2j7u1v5c]


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 Anonymous
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11/02/2012 10:33 pm  

Shiva... the 60's wasn't aboutthis?  🙂

Some things can't be stomped on by any amount of establishment.

" a thing is a phallic symbol if it's longer than it's wide..." - Saska.

..."maybe after an intermission there's be another movement?  And you'll be part of it... and I will too?"  - Saska


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 Anonymous
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11/02/2012 11:07 pm  

Where were we at here?  Thelema and world war and peace? 

One of the hallmarks of a hermit is that he is not at war with himself.  Of course, most men would like to believe they are not at war within themselves, and thus pass the shadow onto their seed and their girlfriend.

Where are we at now?

Its always the relevant question at hand.

Where are you at?


That's safka, not saska.  I think there was a saska in Voyager.... Oh lord!  😉


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Shiva
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12/02/2012 4:28 am  
"Dar" wrote:
Shiva... the 60's wasn't about this?

I'm not sure what "this" is. I watched the video. I am perplexed.

The big confront with Big Brother was actually relatively absent in the 60's. The crackdown started in late '69 and got rolling in the 70's. That's when all the guys started wearing Beatles haircuts instead of hair that was 2 feet long. I knew things had changed when I saw my first lawyer with a Beatle cut; I looked around the courthouse and saw that MOST of the lawyers looked like John, Paul, George & Ringo. TV actors rapidly took on the Beatle look in the 70's. Somehow, the Establishment got infiltrated with a minor part of the 60's.

"Some things can't be stomped on by any amount of establishment."

Right. Like a yearning for Peace and Smaller Government. But if they kill you (or somebody else, let's say), then you (they) have been stomped. Then life goes on for those who escaped The Stomp (wasn't that a music piece? Yeah! The Bristol Stomp.)

..."maybe after an intermission there's be another movement?  And you'll be part of it... and I will too?"

One "maybe" and two (2) ? marks. I'd use an ! and say, "Of course there'll be another movement. They roll in on cyclic waves. The Roaring Twenties, for example.

During the 20's, the roarers went underground, just like in the 70's.

But anyway, Shiva still predicts that no (real-time) reader of this thread (to this date) will be seeing anything like WORLD Peace. That "inner peace" mentioned in various posts above is possible at any time for any given individual. From them, it can spread to others, either temporarily (a passing "contact high"), or permanently ("Another pilgrim has reached the other shore").


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Shiva
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12/02/2012 4:31 am  
"Dar" wrote:
Shiva... the 60's wasn't about this?

I'm not sure what "this" is. I watched the video. I am perplexed.

The big confront with Big Brother was actually relatively absent in the 60's. The crackdown started in late '69 and got rolling in the 70's. That's when all the guys started wearing Beatles haircuts instead of hair that was 2 feet long. I knew things had changed when I saw my first lawyer with a Beatle cut; I looked around the courthouse and saw that MOST of the lawyers looked like John, Paul, George & Ringo. TV actors rapidly took on the Beatle look in the 70's. Somehow, the Establishment got infiltrated with a minor part of the 60's.

"Some things can't be stomped on by any amount of establishment."

Right. Like a yearning for Peace and Smaller Government. But if they kill you (or somebody else, let's say), then you (they) have been stomped. Then life goes on for those who escaped The Stomp (wasn't that a music piece? Yeah! The Bristol Stomp.)

..."maybe after an intermission there's be another movement?  And you'll be part of it... and I will too?"

One "maybe" and two (2) ? marks. I'd use an ! and say, "Of course there'll be another movement. They roll in on cyclic waves. The Roaring Twenties, for example.

During the 20's, the roarers went underground, just like in the 70's.

But anyway, Shiva still predicts that no (real-time) reader of this thread (to this date) will be seeing anything like WORLD Peace. That "inner peace" mentioned in various posts above is possible at any time for any given individual. From them, it can spread to others, either temporarily (a passing "contact high"), or permanently ("Another pilgrim has reached the other shore").


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Shiva
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12/02/2012 4:33 am  

Double post due to digital instability. It must be The Black Lodge again.


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 Anonymous
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12/02/2012 12:39 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
"Dar" wrote:
Shiva... the 60's wasn't about this?

I'm not sure what "this" is. I watched the video. I am perplexed.

Sorry Shiva.  That was a dumb thing to do.  But the song just sums up for me that spirit of sexual liberation that seemed to go down in the 60s.  All of that 'make love not war' stuff.  Free love, and women's emancipation.  I think the effects on society from that period of sexual libertarianism have remained with us, and so I can't see the 60's as a failed project, even if it didn't manage to reform the establishment.  By taking sex away from the establishment, I think the 60's did us a very great favour. 


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 Anonymous
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12/02/2012 1:13 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
Hippies, Love, Peace and LSD were frowned upon by the Establishment.

Do you mean the "Establishment" that suspected it was the "Red menace" infiltrating their shores, or the "establishment" that was simply alarmed at the apparent threat to their monochrome paradigm by a sudden broader spectrum of color?

(It is noteworthy that color television was becoming more accessible during this period.)

I suppose that it was the paranoia of the former manipulating the fears of the latter.

Either way, the war in Vietnam is often cited at this point in the telling of this period.

This war was unique only in that some of the peoples' enthusiasm for war itself was beginning to diminish. This enthusiasm, the rabid momentum of which carried over from being arguably justified in WWII right through the stupid carving up of Europe (as in Germany) and Asia (as in Korea) without so much as a flinch was finally beginning to be held up to a bit of scrutiny with Vietnam. (One assumes that Europe and Asia were so historically accustomed to being carved up that no one noticed.)

Meanwhile.....

Socialism (Communism, Marxism, what have you) were never actually a threat to anyone beyond those who experimented with them. Firstly, because socialism doesn't really work in wide practice, and secondly because it is useless trying to prevent other sovereign nations from experimenting with changes in government as they will.

Western Europe and America have experimented with socialism since WWII, as well, right up to the present day, but sort of 'on the down low' compared to the former People's Republic of China and the former USSR.

Every stupid and illegal war since WWII, right up through our present 'War on Terror' follows the same path. The 'Free World' supports dictators who will resist the foe of the day, be it the 'Reds' or the 'Muslim fundamentalists,' while at the same time supporting the resistance to these tyrants in the name of 'Freedom,' and all the while they are experimenting themselves with the equally evil 'Western democratic-socialism' and 'Judeo-Christian fundamentalism.' 

"Shiva" wrote:
They were ground into the dust.

Well, it's no wonder. "Hippies, Love, Peace" were totally oblivious to the above dizzying array of political nonsense going on above their (long-haired) heads, but were quite quick to catch on the horrors of war right there on color TV in front of them.

All of a sudden, after thousands of years of the routine horrors of war, the advent of technology intervenes and more information is available globally, sort of, although it's still manipulated to a great extent by the same political nonsense aforesaid.

It's still is manipulated today, of course.

Coincidental to the above, some chemically and otherwise induced altered states of consciousness occur, and the naturally resulting revulsion for the status quo. Plus a lot of changes in 'fashion,' the faux 'altered states.' A lot of these.

Throw in mass cultural, political, social, sexual, artistic, literary and religious liberation, in any and every conceivable alternative to the now dreaded status quo, plus or minus 40 odd years, plus a lot more science and technology, and then ....

"Shiva" wrote:
What emerged was The New Age Movement, with seminars and techniques [...]

And it is in this vague category that we find 'Thelema' today, although some would argue that Thelema had some mysterious hand in all of the above.

"Shiva" wrote:
Unfortunately, the results left the participants "high" and enthused for 6 weeks (more or less - a fairly standard time span). Then it wore off. It was/is ineffectual in the long run, because it required no on-going WORK (practices).

Oh, you mean to imply that some sort of 'work ethic' is required? Well, how 'status quo' of you.

You mean that we can't "undo ourselves" (with a nod to 'Christopher Hyatt,' with whom I occasionally argued) or "undo" our fucked-up world simply by attending some lectures or classes, or by reading some books?

"Shiva" wrote:
The hippies (et al) had legal LSD that quickly became illegal. They were (possibly-probably) right, but they failed to recognize the Black Lodge aspect of the reigning Military-Industrial Complex Establishment. They rarely incorporated martial arts training into their curriculum (the mentality of it, in this case, not the actual confrontation and combat readiness).

Here's one, "Opportunities multiply as they are seized." -Sun Tzu

"Shiva" wrote:
The New Age Movement (still running strong today) had/has one BIG flaw. "It is easy," they say. Pay here and now and we'll give you the secret.

But it (the Path) is NOT easy under any circumstances. After all, we are trying to move in the most difficult of directions: Straight up!

As I see it, Thelema is the next best solution to all of our problems. I think this is true, no matter who we are. This is true for everyone, in every walk of life. Show me a problem that cannot be solved by the right application of the Law of Thelema and I'll show that you are wrong. But do we seize this remarkable opportunity? Nope.

So, what have we done with it? The best we have done is maybe to be big fish in small ponds. A few of us have our (relatively) small projects within the microcosm. A few of us seek to act upon the microcosm by way of the macrocosm. Most of us elect to slice and dice Thelema against itself, as it were. There is 'left hand path Thelema' and there is 'secular Thelema' and there is 'magical mysticism tour Thelema' and there is 'religious Thelema,' and still there'll be more...

No one has really taken the opportunity offered by how 'one size fits all' Thelema really is. Not that this is not challenging, and not that Mr. Crowley made it easy for us strategically.

"Shiva" wrote:
But anyway, Shiva still predicts that no (real-time) reader of this thread (to this date) will be seeing anything like WORLD Peace. That "inner peace" mentioned in various posts above is possible at any time for any given individual. From them, it can spread to others, either temporarily (a passing "contact high"), or permanently ("Another pilgrim has reached the other shore").

The question is, then, is this 'contact high,' either through exposure to Crowley's writings or through the individual Attainment of others, enough?

Are Crowley's writings, or those of his immediate associates, already archaic in our day?

Is individual Attainment too idiosyncratic to be truly relevant to others? 


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obscurus
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12/02/2012 4:30 pm  

93

Perhaps  a musical interlude that might somehow fit?
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSaOG42K864&feature=plcp&context=C33cc017UDOEgsToPDskJrWZ_dS30l36H_LEN-rcjy
Best wishes.

93/93


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Azidonis
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12/02/2012 5:19 pm  

93,

Just wanted to stick my head in and say that, thanks to many of your efforts, and despite my own lack of proper communication on the issue, this thread has turned into what I was hoping to get at in the first place.

That said, I'm going to sit back, shut my mouth, and try to learn a thing or two.

93 93/93


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4021
12/02/2012 6:19 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
So, what have we done with it? The best we have done is maybe to be big fish in small ponds. A few of us have our (relatively) small projects within the microcosm. A few of us seek to act upon the microcosm by way of the macrocosm. Most of us elect to slice and dice Thelema against itself, as it were. There is 'left hand path Thelema' and there is 'secular Thelema' and there is 'magical mysticism tour Thelema' and there is 'religious Thelema,' and still there'll be more...

What do you consider we should have done with it?


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obscurus
(@obscuruspaintus)
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12/02/2012 7:46 pm  

93

Without freedom for every individual to grow and develope as they will, there can be no world peace. I believe that it is really that simple.

As long as there is some pompous ass telling you what is the best and true course for you, there is no freedom. But we are our own worst enemies. As a case in point I will try to illustrate with an example on this very website, LAShTAL.com and the Encyclopedia Thelemica. Go to the encyclopedia and open up anyone of The Thoth Tarot card pages. What does one see? A few written words. Any discussion of the tarot without an image to look at is like trying to fuck two handfuls of dry hot sand. One never knows when the doorway of the mind will be cracked open allowing a little light to illuminate within. Anyone searching there without their own deck of cards, equates to a lost chance. Why do we throttle the opportunity of enlightenment and learning with a copywrite stranglehold of our very own cause? This is just one small example at the tips of our noses. Without being able to address something as simple as this..what chance do we have with the world at large?

I know that I shall regret this as soon as I post it for I fail miserably at expressing myself with words and numbers. I am a painter. I think in picture form and that of memory of direct experience. We are the architechs of our own misfortune. Currently being in a cycle of art purge I am of no help. Having painted a little more than a hundred paintings last year only to scrape the paint back off upon sucessful completion. By sharing, something may be learned. By not sharing, something may be lost.

Having scoured the the internet for several years now it is my humble opinion that this very site is the jewel in the crown. From it there radiates links that will take one most anywhere. This should be The Place to go in order to read anything and everything that AC has given to the world. But then you see, I drift off topic.

The link I posted previously, I think, says it most powerfully. If only it were so easy as standing up and singing for it?
Best wishes.

93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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13/02/2012 12:13 am  
"obscuruspaintus" wrote:
Without freedom for every individual to grow and develope as they will, there can be no world peace. I believe that it is really that simple.

I agree, but this is not really so simple a matter.

Every organism is irrevocably bound by the environment into which it is born. So, in order to guarantee the optimum Freedom of each organism, we must introduce an overwhelming emphasis upon this idea of individual Freedom into the environment into which we are born.

This Freedom really relies upon no more than the encouragement to be who we were born to be, to be ourselves from the start and to behave accordingly.

But simple?

"obscuruspaintus" wrote:
Having scoured the the internet for several years now it is my humble opinion that this very site is the jewel in the crown.

This is also true because, directly or indirectly, this site reveals the present state of 'Thelema' at any given time - although "this is not a Thelemic website." 🙂


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obscurus
(@obscuruspaintus)
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13/02/2012 3:08 pm  

93

It is as simple or as complicated as we choose to make it. From my current perspective it appears quite simple. It has not alwyas been like that. During the course of this life I have made the adjustments and undertaken many drastic changes. It was not and is not always easy, at times it is simply difficult. As individuals, I believe that we instinctively know our proper course. Whether or not we follow it is another matter? I strive at all times to try to do what I know to be correct and true. I do what I have to do, when I have to do it. I hope I make sense?

"Every organism is irrevocably bound by the enviroment into which it is born." Very true! I picture in my mind a handful of stars cast into the darkness. That darkness is my mothers womb. In that darkness, one divine spark falls onto a fertile plane. The other stars eventually fall and burnout being reabsorbed into the nothingness that is. From the moment that, that one divine spark settles in, it begins building this coat of flesh which it will wear as the I begins its journey through this world of sensation. Images of the chain of existance give way to that which I cannot find words for. In this existance the stars burn and the planets turn. All has its effect on the "organism" I. As we travel this path called life, we affect that which surrounds us as "it" affects us. Stumbling through the darkness we seek enlightment through knowledge...some of us more than others. It is that cracking of the doorway into the mind and letting in those glimmers of light. If we do not have the freedom to do so, we must make it our first priority. Freedom to come to realization?

As you can see, I am as lost as most everyone else. I simply try to keep the light above my head at all times and as WalterFive says on the bottom of his posts,"Onward through the fog!
Best wishes.

93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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13/02/2012 10:11 pm  
"obscuruspaintus" wrote:
93

It is as simple or as complicated as we choose to make it.

Indeed!  Where the will is concerned, we may choose to follow through with an intellectual understanding as much as we are capable of that, or we may simply follow faith, but there are consequences to that as faith without understanding is blind.  However- that doesn't mean it's wrong per se, only that on the level of the intellect - the horse pulling the chariot may lack direction and get caught up in the mire.

In following the aphorism of magical work - know thyself becomes know the universe.  And doesn't Liber Al 'explain the universe' as Crowley said? 

Nu!  Gravity!
Nuit! Spacetime!
Had!  Energy!
Hadit!  The Waveform!
Horus!  Consciousness in superposition!
RHK & HPK!  Consciousness in Objective Reduction!

 


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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14/02/2012 3:14 am  

I think Cam is talking about the issue on a global scale. Could be wrong though...


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obscurus
(@obscuruspaintus)
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14/02/2012 2:24 pm  

93

World peace?
World peace is no concern of mine. Past experience has caused me to view the whole concept as one of the tools used by those whose intention it is to manipulate others. As unique and individual stars, our first concern should be our own immediate enviroment, by improving ourselves we help those around us. They in turn do the same. Slowly but surely it spreads. Pulling ones own self up the mountian is task enough much less trying to drag an unwilling world with you.
While I state that world peace is no concern of mine, please don't make the assumption that I am completely uncaring. I have risked my life and suffered the loss of friends lives in an effort to aid those at a disadvantage. Some things you just cannot do for others...they must stand up and do it for themselves.
Maybe...just maybe, this next war, which has been brewing and building for many many years will finally be the one that causes the entire world to make that next big step up?
Statements like the ones that I just made are hard for me to make, for once put out there, there is no taking them back. As a developing "organism" I am in a constant state of flux. And as past experience has taught me, a perspective changing event could be just around the next corner and in a flash, everything changes.
Sometimes silence is the best statement.
Best wishes.

93/93


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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14/02/2012 3:58 pm  
"obscuruspaintus" wrote:
Pulling ones own self up the mountian is task enough much less trying to drag an unwilling world with you.

But you said it was simple?


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
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14/02/2012 3:59 pm  
"obscuruspaintus" wrote:
... our first concern should be our own immediate enviroment, by improving ourselves we help those around us. They in turn do the same. Slowly but surely it spreads.

Precisely portrayed. Note the word, "Slowly."

"Pulling ones own self up the mountain is task enough much less trying to drag an unwilling world with you."

The Path is about gradual, conscious liberation from the World. Of course, if one finds themself in The White House, or on Downing Street, or in a fox-hole in Afghanistan, it's hard to be detached. It really doesn't matter. One must deal with thir "own environment."

Wherever you go ... There you are.


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obscurus
(@obscuruspaintus)
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14/02/2012 4:48 pm  

93

Well, Azidonis...I don't know what else to say?
I'm out of words.
Best wishes.

93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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14/02/2012 4:50 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
The Path is about gradual, conscious liberation from the World.

I used to believe this, but my perspective has changed over the years.  I think the path is about right engagement with the world.  Is not the light in extension of THAT which created the world and all living and conscious entities?  To seek liberation from the world is to deny the will that caused the energy of consciousness to dwell within matter - drawn forth by the love of Nu?

Yes - part of the path is the meditations and rituals and work that goes into becoming consciously self aware of all the planes of existence that consciousness extends to - but when an adept rejects the world he rejects the will. 


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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14/02/2012 4:53 pm  
"obscuruspaintus" wrote:
93

Well, Azidonis...I don't know what else to say?
I'm out of words.
Best wishes.

93/93

Were you getting at the theory being simple, but the application not being easy?


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Los
 Los
(@los)
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14/02/2012 5:02 pm  
"Dar" wrote:
"Shiva" wrote:
The Path is about gradual, conscious liberation from the World.

I used to believe this, but my perspective has changed over the years.  I think the path is about right engagement with the world.

The "path" -- if we want to be kind of cryptic -- is "about" disengaging from the world and then re-engaging with the world from a different perspective. Obviously, embracing experience of all kinds (even so-called "bad" things, like conflict and hatred and violence) is integral to the "path" (cf. the formula of the Scarlet Woman).

As a side note, is this thread even about anything any more? These last few pages have just been vague meandering sentences that couldn't have anything less to do with Thelema or World Peace. I thought this thread had a chance at being somewhat interesting when Azidonis was claiming that there was some inherent "trap" in Thelema that causes people to become "jerkasses," to use a term popular among Simpsons fandom. If we're not actually going to discuss something here, maybe it's time to pack it in.


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obscurus
(@obscuruspaintus)
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14/02/2012 5:46 pm  

93

Azidonis, my answer to your last question is that both are simple, I think anyway. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. One need only look in the nearest most familiar place, inside oneself. How easy or difficult that is depends on you.

Los, you are correct. I started out trying to make a statement linking "world peace" with personal freedom. As is my tendency when trying to write, I wonder off. My apologies to all.
Best wishes.

93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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14/02/2012 6:08 pm  
"Los" wrote:
"Dar" wrote:
"Shiva" wrote:
The Path is about gradual, conscious liberation from the World.

I used to believe this, but my perspective has changed over the years.  I think the path is about right engagement with the world.

The "path" -- if we want to be kind of cryptic -- is "about" disengaging from the world and then re-engaging with the world from a different perspective. Obviously, embracing experience of all kinds (even so-called "bad" things, like conflict and hatred and violence) is integral to the "path" (cf. the formula of the Scarlet Woman).

There are two types of Scarlet Woman.  The first is an intuitive sort; fulfilling all the credentials of her office but without the deeper insights that the work inevitably unfolds to her into the nature of adjustment.  This type is 'at war' with herself.  She is a scythe that cuts through her own nature and that of others.  The second type is the seasoned warrior and she has both equilibrium and disequilibrium at her command, for both are found in the world.  When energy tends towards too much inertia she brings new energy to the situation and kicks things back into touch.  When the energy tends towards too much activity then she, by her powers of creation, provides the direction whereby that energy may be usefully directed.  Undirected energy is merely an orgasm of explosion... but to direct such unbridled energies requires a wisdom that reaches across the abyss or the result only creates monsters due to the shadow play in her psyche. 

Thanks Los.  You gave me a key today.  🙂  Happy Valentines Day to you btw. 

As a side note, is this thread even about anything any more? These last few pages have just been vague meandering sentences that couldn't have anything less to do with Thelema or World Peace. I thought this thread had a chance at being somewhat interesting when Azidonis was claiming that there was some inherent "trap" in Thelema that causes people to become "jerkasses," to use a term popular among Simpsons fandom. If we're not actually going to discuss something here, maybe it's time to pack it in.

I note that you both seem to adhere to some intrinsic code of self-honesty and your posts flow from that core.

More often than not, we learn by indirection, and most of us on these boards are here to learn from one another - so when we transcend categories I think that's the time to step up our attention, rather than close down a thread because it indicates that people have entered into a time of a synergy of thought.  Our conversations do not have to be strictly delineated, and when they are I think a great deal of potential exploration into the nature of our mutual self aware consciousness is bypassed. 

Az started this thread by making it an open playground.  Why try to ring the dinner bell now when we're having fun Los?  😀     


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Los
 Los
(@los)
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14/02/2012 7:39 pm  
"Dar" wrote:
Thanks Los.  You gave me a key today.

"If it's me chews to swallow all you saidn't you can eat my words for it as sure as there's a key in my kiss.  [...] Lps. The keys to. Given! A way a lone a last a loved a long the"
--James Joyce, Finnegans Wake


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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14/02/2012 7:59 pm  
"Los" wrote:
"Dar" wrote:
Thanks Los.  You gave me a key today.

"If it's me chews to swallow all you saidn't you can eat my words for it as sure as there's a key in my kiss.  [...] Lps. The keys to. Given! A way a lone a last a loved a long the"
--James Joyce, Finnegans Wake

*alrah shuts up (for once) and just smiles...*


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
14/02/2012 8:18 pm  

Interlude... 😉

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_k2GG-H_RU


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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14/02/2012 8:53 pm  
"Los" wrote:
I thought this thread had a chance at being somewhat interesting when Azidonis was claiming that there was some inherent "trap" in Thelema

Concerning "traps", I'm currently reading an interesting book in my "Religions of India" course called... "Religion in India" (go figure), written by Fred W. Clothey.

He talks about something similar in the first chapter, concerning approaches that people take when studying Indian religion, though I do not see why these pre-suppositions are limited to just the study of Indian religion.

These approaches are:

"Pejorative putdown"
"Romanticism"
"Noble savage"
"Interpretation by imposition"
"Benign Neglect"

Taken to the extreme, any one of these stances can lead to various pitfalls (for lack of a better term). So while they may not necessarily be traps per se, they can definitely serve to inhibit one's understanding of the whole picture, even though they may initially have the apparent benefit of 'focused study'.

"Dar" wrote:
Az started this thread by making it an open playground.

Playground indeed! I recall my first trip to the Persian Gulf in 2005. On the ship, it so happens that without the constant influx of new material, old musical favorites tend to get re-popularized fairly quickly. We were all enjoying Sublime at the time, and turned the lyrics from "Pawn Shop" into "Sandbox". Sandbox was also the (pejorative?) term used to describe the port in Bahrain.

"Down here at the sandbox..."


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
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15/02/2012 1:05 am  
"Los" wrote:
The Path is about gradual, conscious liberation from the World.

The "path" -- if we want to be kind of cryptic -- is "about" disengaging from the world and then re-engaging with the world from a different perspective.

Right on! Hopefully, the word "different" could be replaced with "higher" or "more expanded," etc.


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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15/02/2012 3:23 am  

"Right on! Hopefully, the word "different" could be replaced with "higher" or "more expanded," etc."

And hopefully we "expand" or "move higher" onto the Path whereby "there is no Thou upon That Path; thou hast become The Way."

Then something might be said about "World Peace" or "Universal Brotherhood" which enlightens by means of its own Inner Radiance. 


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mika
 mika
(@mika)
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Posts: 360
15/02/2012 6:07 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
"Los" wrote:
The Path is about gradual, conscious liberation from the World.
The "path" -- if we want to be kind of cryptic -- is "about" disengaging from the world and then re-engaging with the world from a different perspective.

Right on! Hopefully, the word "different" could be replaced with "higher" or "more expanded," etc.

Why would you hope to replace a perfectly descriptive, measurable, objective word like "different" with completely subjective, poorly- or un-definable words like "higher" or "more expanded"?  What is the purpose of intentional obfuscation, other than to distract oneself from one's path with fantasy and delusion?  You're creating a fictional hierarchy, why?  Is there a reason besides it giving you the opportunity to judge others?

Los, your different perspective isn't good enough!  You must re-engage with the world from a higher perspective.  What does that mean?  Ask Shiva to confirm whether your perspective is sufficiently more expanded!  I'm so completely sure you'll get objective feedback about the correctness of your path.

"Dar" wrote:
There are two types of Scarlet Woman. 

No, actually, there are as many types of Scarlet Woman as there are people who choose to embody that Office.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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15/02/2012 6:23 pm  
"mika" wrote:
"Dar" wrote:
There are two types of Scarlet Woman. 

No, actually, there are as many types of Scarlet Woman as there are people who choose to embody that Office.

I was discussing the Scarlet Woman as an archetype of the collective unconscious, obviously.  How that archetype is expressed in individual women is interesting, but I wasn't focused on that when I wrote the above.


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