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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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09/05/2010 5:38 pm  

Many threads have been expended on asking whether Thelema is a New Aeon religion, a science, a process of nature and evolution, something inherent in the nature of humanity etc. Answers have varied according to each person’s knowledge, experience and understanding. Following Kant, I would like to formulate the question once more in a manner not requiring knowledge of Thelema as a thing-in-itself.

Following Heidegger’s phenomenological questioning of the “beingness” of Being, subsequently imitated by Derrida in his questioning of the “structurality” of structure in Structure, Sign and Play, my question is:

What is it is about Thelema that gives it the “Thelema-like” qualities?


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 Anonymous
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09/05/2010 6:44 pm  

Lets not speak Heideggerese.

The Thelemaness of Thelema. Why are there WILLs rather than nothing? (enough of that jargon)

Thelema is plain and simple. It is the study of all things that exist to understand what are the properties of that thing, and what is the most appropriate way to put each thing to use. That is not to abuse the qualities of any aspect of the world, be it a stone, a plant, an animal, or a human being.

If you try to use a shale of a hammer, it will break a part, as it is not suited to the task, likewise if you yoke your plow shear to a sheep, the field will not get plowed even if you beat the sheep to death. If you use an eggbeater to drive a nail it will get dented up and may break.

Now how to apply this principle to "spiritual" advancement, is that you must treat your self as a part of the world. You have to look at your self without bias, without exaggerating the qualities you like and diminishing the qualities you don't like. You have to know what your true strengths and weaknesses are, and to do that you have to stop allowing your self-image to be distorted by your ego.

Once you can clearly discover what you are, what your properties are, then you can figure out what purposes you are suited for and which you are not. Which both who you are and what your purpose is, must be discovered by the scientific method, by experiments that push your limits, physically, mentally, and emotionally, then record accurately how you reacted to those experiments. Those can be rituals dramas that enact emotional situations, testing how long you can go without sleeping, eating, breathing, saying a word, having a thought, or moving from a position. It can be living out different personality styles, doing things you normally would not, especially that you have high revulsion to. Eat something that disgusts you, perform some bazaar sex act, including those against your orientation, if you are timid act forceful, if normally dominate act meek. Etc, push every limit.

Then take records in order to get objective results outside of your personal biases. Judge the result of the experiment on what actually happens, rather than on your internal feelings, on if you achieve your goal, rather than how comfortable you feel doing the behaviors. If the behavior achieves your purpose, then that is your WILL, irregardless of how dirty it makes you feel to act against your ego-personality.

Do what thou wilt, rather than do what you feel comfortable with. Once you have the data, learn to modify your behavior by doing what worked and stop doing what does not work. Find ways to use self discipline to change your internal reactions until you feel comfortable with doing what works, rather than changing your behavior to fit what makes you feel comfortable.

The HGA is a personification of the new personality that is described by the behaviors that work, the self image of the TRUE WILL, that is the aggregate of those behaviors than work. You can invoke the HGA as a familiar voice or the voice of a conscience that competes with the internal voice of your conditioned ego personality. We all have a little voice than makes us feel uncomfortable when we act outside of our normal behavior, our idea of who we are and what is proper to do. This voice includes allot of Christian morality for most people, even atheists are effected by Christian morals that have become secularized and part of the culture. We are taught a bunch of ethical non-sense Christian and otherwise that is not based on experiments with trial and error, but rather are imposed on us as ideals we should ALL universally live up to. We want to be good boys and girls, we want to be good patriots, good Christians, we want to be cool and not lame, we want to be seen in certain ways, as reflected in haw we dress, the way we speak, the things we buy. Big business is more than willing to create and exploit these imposed ideal self images to sell us shit that we don't need, it order to support that self image that is not the HGA discovered by trial and error, and to entrap you in various ways including perpetual dept to work jobs suited to robots rather than human beings, just to continue to support than false Ego image.

What makes Thelema, is than it is any means by which to replace the false self created by moral laws, cultural tradition or the marketing dept of big business, with self image resulting from the true experimental data of empirical evidence discovered in scientific trial and error with the real world.

Then politically, Thelema is based on helping each individual to express this true Will in the social world, by removing the all the imposed moral restrictions that interfere with personal experimentation of one's limitations. A culture than reduces the imposition of ideal values on the youth instead aids each child to push it's limits and discover its own nature for itself. An economy and social order than helps each individual to express itself in it's unique true nature, without imposing behavior restriction and self images that exist only to sell products.


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 Anonymous
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09/05/2010 8:52 pm  

It takes will power and discipline to conform and succeed in socially acceptable roles as well as to push limits and explore oneself. So your explanation doesn’t really explain what distinguishes a “false” self from a “true” self. Or, for that matter, ordinary will versus True Will.

Regarding the Thelema-like qualities of Thelema, for example, it is definitely linked with, and accelerates, change. It is not a concept of stasis.


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 Anonymous
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09/05/2010 9:00 pm  

Copied from the 'Tory' thread for convenience, tai.

"There is truly new and improved religion in Thelema, for example, for those to whom religion is best suited by their natures at this time. But there are also much more secular paradigms of equal value, almost irreligious ones, actually, for those better suited these. Both worldviews are true, just as the Law of Thelema is true, but each is hued according to the receptivity of the individual. "For the colours are many, but the light is one." Liber LXV, 3. "

I might only add that the Law of Thelema is that each individual must act in accordance with his or her own true nature, true Will, Thelema. This is the "Thelema-like quality of Thelema."


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 Anonymous
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09/05/2010 9:16 pm  
"tai" wrote:
Following Heidegger’s phenomenological questioning of the “beingness” of Being, subsequently imitated by Derrida in his questioning of the “structurality” of structure in Structure, Sign and Play

Another thought, tai: It may your true Will to discover the true nature and powers of your own being, for example, while it may be my true Will to cook the perfect omelet. Neither of these is more "Thelema-like" than the other.


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 Anonymous
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10/05/2010 1:43 am  

True Will is not some specific goal. It is a way of existing.
You can not know if your WILL in to cook an omelet or not, unless you know what you and what your proper purpose is.

If you are a fish and you really want to fly, no matter how strongly you pine after the birds. You can jump from the water, see that you can't breath out of the water, realize than you have adaption to the water, fins, scales etc that do not allow flight but support swimming.

Thus your WILL is to swim, not to fly, no matter how much you may hate swimming, it is still you WILL and you have no right but to do that one thing for with Nature has designed you to do (Like it or not)


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 Anonymous
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10/05/2010 2:57 am  
"name538" wrote:
True Will is not some specific goal. It is a way of existing.
You can not know if your WILL in to cook an omelet or not, unless you know what you and what your proper purpose is.

If you are a fish and you really want to fly, no matter how strongly you pine after the birds. You can jump from the water, see that you can't breath out of the water, realize than you have adaption to the water, fins, scales etc that do not allow flight but support swimming.

Thus your WILL is to swim, not to fly, no matter how much you may hate swimming, it is still you WILL and you have no right but to do that one thing for with Nature has designed you to do (Like it or not)

It can be a very specific goal at any given moment, as determined by one's overall purpose and the circumstances present at the time, as with your fish; but we are not fish and our lives and potentials are much more complex.

You are arguing for the sake of argument, name538.


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 Anonymous
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10/05/2010 11:01 am  

who says our lives are more complex than a fishes like. I see no such evidence.


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 Anonymous
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10/05/2010 6:56 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
Copied from the 'Tory' thread for convenience, tai.

"There is truly new and improved religion in Thelema, for example, for those to whom religion is best suited by their natures at this time. But there are also much more secular paradigms of equal value, almost irreligious ones, actually, for those better suited these. Both worldviews are true, just as the Law of Thelema is true, but each is hued according to the receptivity of the individual. "For the colours are many, but the light is one." Liber LXV, 3. "

I might only add that the Law of Thelema is that each individual must act in accordance with his or her own true nature, true Will, Thelema. This is the "Thelema-like quality of Thelema."

Hi Camlion - I don’t subscribe too heavily to the religious side of Thelema although, I have to admit, the most successful magickal operation I ever did came through an invocation of Horus... The Stele of Revealing, TBOTL, Trinity of Nuit, Hadit and RHK, the Gnostic Mass, Chaos and Babalon - these constitute sublime religious forms and principles for those so-inclined. Personally I regard the religious side of Thelema to be grounded in the Supernals so there’s no point in talking about it or trying to refute it. You either incorporate these forms and rituals into your life or ignore them. They essentially offer a religious answer to what Thelema is as a thing-in-itself. But unless Thelemites carry out the instructions left behind by Crowley and verify his claims, the religious side by itself leads to stagnation and placing false expectations on the Prophet of the New Aeon. As soon as they discover his various faults, the reaction is to dismiss Thelema in its entirety.

I cannot dismiss Thelema despite Crowley’s faults because 1) I regard it to be inherent to human nature and therefore 2) I do not consider Crowley to be the author of Thelema. His particular genius lay in formulating and popularizing the 93 current, but the gnosis from which it is drawn is universal and timeless. Along these lines, I am really curious to know what Ian really means by his rejection of Thelema...

I subscribe more toward the scientific side of Thelema, the practical how-to aspects, rather than focusing on the religious aspects. So my question on the Thelema-like qualities of Thelema is a gathering of facts at the ground level. For example, I strongly disagree with the notion that Thelema is each individual doing what he or she feels like – making an omelet vs discovering one’s being. I don’t think making a sandwich in the kitchen and eating it is necessarily an expression of True Will. The difference lies in distinguishing between mere will and True Will. While the Law is for All, not everyone is guaranteed to discover and do their True Will - much in the same way we all have potential for genius, but not everyone necessarily realizes their genius. Nature is cruel because it is absolutely just...


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 Anonymous
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10/05/2010 7:26 pm  
"name538" wrote:
who says our lives are more complex than a fishes like. I see no such evidence.

Fish don't have the internet. 😉


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 Anonymous
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10/05/2010 7:48 pm  

Hi tai. What I meant to add above but didn't was that I recognize religion in Thelema for those Thelemites who have use for that, and I see more secular or scientific based perspectives in Thelema for those who have use for those, and so on. What I don't understand are those Thelemites who are exclusionary with regard to Thelemites of a different stripe, even when that stripe is as legitimately derived from Crowley's work and writings as is their own. But I do not mean by this that I believe that Thelema means any damn thing that people might imagine it to. I rely generally on Liber AL and Crowley's interpretations thereof, with a grain or two of salt occasionally added to compensate for Crowley's limitations in time and space.


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 Anonymous
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10/05/2010 7:57 pm  
"tai" wrote:
I don’t think making a sandwich in the kitchen and eating it is necessarily an expression of True Will. The difference lies in distinguishing between mere will and True Will. While the Law is for All, not everyone is guaranteed to discover and do their True Will - much in the same way we all have potential for genius, but not everyone necessarily realizes their genius. Nature is cruel because it is absolutely just...

I disagree about the sandwich, tai. We each must eat to sustain our lives and do our true Wills, hence the recitation of 'Will' before meals by some Thelemites. Yes, there is no guarantee that everyone shall discover and do their true Wills, but I think as many as possible should be given the opportunity to do so. Also, I think the best bet is to raise children not to loose track of their true Wills in the first place.


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phthah
(@phthah)
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10/05/2010 9:26 pm  

93,

"Camlion" wrote:
Also, I think the best bet is to raise children not to loose track of their true Wills in the first place.

Good point Cam. In fact, Crowley wrote of the importance of this in Liber Aleph:

"It is important that thou shouldst understand as early as may be what is the true Will of the Child in the Matter of his Career. Be thou well ware of all Ideals and Day-dreams; for the Child is himself, and not thy Toy. Recall the comic Tragedy of Napoleon and the King of Rome; build not an House for a wild Goat, nor plant a Forest for the Domain of a Shark. But be thou vigilant for every Sign, conscious or unconscious of the Will of the Child, giving him then all Opportunity to pursue the Path which he thus indicates. Learn this, that he, being young, will weary quickly of all false Ways, however pleasant they may be to him at the Outset; but of the true Way he will not weary. This being in this Manner discovered, thou mayst prepare it for him perfectly; for no Man can keep open all Roads for ever. And to him making his Choice explain how one may not travel far on any Road without a general Knowledge of Things apparently irrelevant. And with that he will understand, and bend him wisely to his Work."

93 93/93
phthah


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 Anonymous
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10/05/2010 10:34 pm  

Right, so it is clear that Crowley states that the Child's course can be discovered by observation of the child's behavior. Thus the Child must discover it's own true Will, by being given a choice, but once discovered the course of the WILL is clear to the parents and thus proper guidance and support on that course are warranted, least the child stray, or worse find unacceptable even criminal means to pursue the course of that WILL in antagonism with the external society.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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11/05/2010 4:38 pm  
"phthah" wrote:
93,

"Camlion" wrote:
Also, I think the best bet is to raise children not to loose track of their true Wills in the first place.

Good point Cam. In fact, Crowley wrote of the importance of this in Liber Aleph:

"It is important that thou shouldst understand as early as may be what is the true Will of the Child in the Matter of his Career. Be thou well ware of all Ideals and Day-dreams; for the Child is himself, and not thy Toy.

Sounds like focus and discipline to me.

Recall the comic Tragedy of Napoleon and the King of Rome; build not an House for a wild Goat, nor plant a Forest for the Domain of a Shark. But be thou vigilant for every Sign, conscious or unconscious of the Will of the Child, giving him then all Opportunity to pursue the Path which he thus indicates.

If the child shows love an aptitude for playing the piano, let him play the damn piano. My stepson is in the band. He plays trombone. I played football in high school, so for me the band thing is an entirely different way. But, instead of forcing him to play football, I encourage him to play his trombone. Unfortunately for him, he has to deal with the "band geek" stuff, but it is a path he chose.

Learn this, that he, being young, will weary quickly of all false Ways, however pleasant they may be to him at the Outset; but of the true Way he will not weary.

People quite simply have a natural inclination to be who they are, and kids are no different. Perhaps their will to be who they are is even stronger, as they are constantly forced into positions trying to get them to be what they are not. This is one reason education if so very important. When the child is young, she can learn a great many things, and thus have broader options about which path she wants to take. As she begins to take this path, the parents will see it... This doesn't mean that the parents can communicate with her HGA. It means that if you have a 16 year old child, and you have known that child every day for 16 years, and you cannot tell when they are changing, growing, pursuing various interests, then it is possibly not the child that has the problems.

This being in this Manner discovered, thou mayst prepare it for him perfectly; for no Man can keep open all Roads for ever.

When the kid wants to go hiking, hand him a sack lunch, a walking stick, and ask if he wants a companion. Don't tell him he is forbidden to hike, like so many parents do, with so many bad excuses.

And to him making his Choice explain how one may not travel far on any Road without a general Knowledge of Things apparently irrelevant. And with that he will understand, and bend him wisely to his Work."

An even further stress on education.

93 93/93
phthah

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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11/05/2010 6:32 pm  

Yes, but you can't keep doing random things your whole life with no focus or direction. The child should be encouraged to stick to in and not give up as soon as it get tough or the other kids call her a band geek. That is why it requires discipline to do you WILL.

"Choose ye an Island!"

It does not say, try to live on all the islands at the same time. Nor does it say to jump around from island to island your whole life. It says choose one and stick to it, build up a fort and Go to war from that Island.

No matter if that Island is Biology, football, Serial killing, even Christian Ministry. The nature of the island you choose reflects who you are, and there is no correct or incorrect island. Thus a very violent person may dedicate his life to mass genocide, and that is as lawful as any other path. The killer must not get discouraged by the resentment he creates and the violence plotted to bring down his reign of terror.

Their is no Good or Evil in Thelema only effective, persistent, and strong, vs inefficient, weak, and unfocused.

I know you will say, how can establishing a reign of terror, be an act of love, and how can it be the "joy of the world"

Look at it like this, without the Joker's reign of terror, the Batman will not be able to fully realize himself. The Will of the police officer to fight crime is impossible without the criminal. The stronger and more clever the criminal, the greater must the officer make himself to rise to the challenge. Greatness is forged in the heat of battle.

Without Moriarty, Holmes great mind would go to waste he would be unpracticed and fall into narcotics addiction, no different that the common junky on the streets.

Between the higher level of interaction between the Batman and the Joker, the common people are insignificant ants, they get in the way and generally get blow up and such. The Batman concerns with them only out of duty to the Principles he defends as an expression of his WILL, His concern in the Super Villian, not the common crook. Not the weak, the wretched, those unfit to interact on his higher level.


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Horemakhet
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11/05/2010 9:01 pm  

Name 538: If you read Rabelais' account of the 'Abbey Of Thelema' it may become clear to you that what AC was promoting through synergy & reference is a Utopian model for Society which is self- reliant, but also magnanimous.It is not meant as a justification for a 'Jack The Ripper'(who was never caught btw- not by Batman or Holmes). Was it the True Will of those murdered & mutilated women to be the victim of a sick & depraved Killer?


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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11/05/2010 9:14 pm  
"name538" wrote:
Yes, but you can't keep doing random things your whole life with no focus or direction. The child should be encouraged to stick to in and not give up as soon as it get tough or the other kids call her a band geek. That is why it requires discipline to do you WILL.

"Choose ye an Island!"

It does not say, try to live on all the islands at the same time. Nor does it say to jump around from island to island your whole life. It says choose one and stick to it, build up a fort and Go to war from that Island.

No matter if that Island is Biology, football, Serial killing, even Christian Ministry. The nature of the island you choose reflects who you are, and there is no correct or incorrect island. Thus a very violent person may dedicate his life to mass genocide, and that is as lawful as any other path. The killer must not get discouraged by the resentment he creates and the violence plotted to bring down his reign of terror.

Their is no Good or Evil in Thelema only effective, persistent, and strong, vs inefficient, weak, and unfocused.

I know you will say, how can establishing a reign of terror, be an act of love, and how can it be the "joy of the world"

Look at it like this, without the Joker's reign of terror, the Batman will not be able to fully realize himself. The Will of the police officer to fight crime is impossible without the criminal. The stronger and more clever the criminal, the greater must the officer make himself to rise to the challenge. Greatness is forged in the heat of battle.

Without Moriarty, Holmes great mind would go to waste he would be unpracticed and fall into narcotics addiction, no different that the common junky on the streets.

Between the higher level of interaction between the Batman and the Joker, the common people are insignificant ants, they get in the way and generally get blow up and such. The Batman concerns with them only out of duty to the Principles he defends as an expression of his WILL, His concern in the Super Villian, not the common crook. Not the weak, the wretched, those unfit to interact on his higher level.

93,

You are just making up stuff to say...

"phthah" wrote:
Also, I think the best bet is to raise children not to loose track of their true Wills in the first place.
Good point Cam. In fact, Crowley wrote of the importance of this in Liber Aleph:
"Aleister Crowley" wrote:
"It is important that thou shouldst understand as early as may be what is the true Will of the Child in the Matter of his Career. Be thou well ware of all Ideals and Day-dreams; for the Child is himself, and not thy Toy. "
"Azidonis" wrote:
Sounds like focus and discipline to me.

Notice how the very first sentence in the entire chapter points to focus and discipline. It is obviously a prerequisite to the rest of the chapter. The educated mind would assume since it comes first in the chapter, it must be on the top of Crowley's head too, as a prerequisite and a foundational consideration.

Taken into an easier to understand context, one could verily say that if this [Crowley's] sentence does not occur, the rest of his words on the subject are invaluable and useless. It should not take nine paragraphs to point this out.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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11/05/2010 9:18 pm  

It does not matter if it was the WILL of the victim, it was the WILL of the killer.
Of course Crowley was a white magician, he wanted a system where the WILLs of all were protected, and he would have of course restrained the WILLs of those with criminal intention, and most crime would never come to be, by keeping everyone content in their own WILL.

Most criminals are the result of conditions that push them to crime, they don't have sadistic urges to harm people, But as Alfred told Batman, "some people just want to watch the world burn". Also the Team America movie has an analogy about "dicks, pussies and assholes".

There can be a league of evil organized on Thelemic principles. Much like the Knights of Malta which are supposedly organized Masons that champion anti-enlightenment values.

Basically, thou in the O.T.O and especially the A.'.A.'. Thelema is used for good, there is nothing that stops the principles of Magick from being used for anti-social games.

Look at the science of medicine. A brilliant psychologist and surgeon can save lives, and he can use his skill to murder as well, see Hannibal Lector. Their is no touch stone of Ethics in the medical school, if you have the money they will teach you.

Thelema in it's essence can be used for "anything Bad or Good, but strong"

It's the principles of the orders that insist on ethical use, and demand oaths of loyalty to the principles of the order.


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Azidonis
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11/05/2010 9:22 pm  
"name538" wrote:
It does not matter if it was the WILL of the victim, it was the WILL of the killer.
Of course Crowley was a white magician, he wanted a system where the WILLs of all were protected, and he would have of course restrained the WILLs of those with criminal intention, and most crime would never come to be, by keeping everyone content in their own WILL.

Most criminals are the result of conditions that push them to crime, they don't have sadistic urges to harm people, But as Alfred told Batman, "some people just want to watch the world burn". Also the Team America movie has an analogy about "dicks, pussies and assholes".

There can be a league of evil organized on Thelemic principles. Much like the Knights of Malta which are supposedly organized Masons that champion anti-enlightenment values.

Basically, thou in the O.T.O and especially the A.'.A.'. Thelema is used for good, there is nothing that stops the principles of Magick from being used for anti-social games.

Look at the science of medicine. A brilliant psychologist and surgeon can save lives, and he can use his skill to murder as well, see Hannibal Lector. Their is no touch stone of Ethics in the medical school, if you have the money they will teach you.

Thelema in it's essence can be used for "anything Bad or Good, but strong"

It's the principles of the orders that insist on ethical use, and demand oaths of loyalty to the principles of the order.

93,

I supposed you missed when Crowley discussed how a serial killer is quite probably in conflict with the "will to live".

Learning to use the quote feature will enhance the quality of your posts greatly, by the way.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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11/05/2010 9:37 pm  

That might, be. However. it might also be that the killer does not believe he will get caught. Thus his acts are not attempts at suicide at all.

What of the warrior whose will is to champion justice in the risk of death, or the mountaineer who risks the fall to Champion his WILL to reach the peek. Are these also in conflict with the WILL to live?


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Horemakhet
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11/05/2010 9:51 pm  

Name 538: The "Utopian Model" of Thelema has it's foundation on the principle that if all men & women look deeply inside of themselves to find a course through life which fulfills their inmost needs, they will discover their True Will, & they will discover True Love for others. - This does not include cutting someone into pieces or mass genocide. These are problems created by systems that are not a part of the Ideal that is Thelema: which is to evolve as a species, & learn from these mistakes. We only hurt ourselves.


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 Anonymous
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11/05/2010 9:53 pm  

Batman aside, 🙄 a bit more on the subject from AC:

On the Education of Children

I
Each child must develop its own Individuality, and Will, disregarding alien Ideals. At Cefalu's Abbey of Thelema its resources and originality are matched against divers environments. It is confronted with such problems as swimming, climbing, housework, and left to solve them in its own way. Its subconsciousness is impressed by reading literary masterpieces, which are left to infiltrate its mind automatically without selective stress or asking conscious comprehension. Nothing is taught except How to think for oneself. It is treated as a responsible and independent being, encouraged in self-reliance, and respected for self-assertion.

II
Education is assisting a soul to express itself. Every child should be presented with all possible problems and allowed to register its own reactions; it should be made to face all contingencies in turn until it overcomes each successfully. Its mind must not be influenced, but only offered all kinds of nourishment. Its innate qualities will enable it to select the food proper to its nature. Respect its individuality! Submit all life for its inspection, without comment. Truth teaches understanding, freedom develops will, experience confers resourcefulness, independence inspires self-confidence. Thereby success becomes certain.

III
Every child is God of its own Universe. Education develops control thereof. It must be taught nothing except how to govern its environment. Truth is the first condition; it
must behold all facts scientifically. Courage, the second; it must grapple all facts resolutely. Organization, the third; it must integrate impressions and ordinances. It must be allowed absolute authority over its reactions, but its tendency to deceive itself or evade actuality must be cauterized by insistent confrontation with the repugnant realities. It must know cloudlessly, dare dauntlessly, will integrally, and keep silence sublimely.

IV
Education fits individuals to encounter environment. From infancy children should face facts, unadulterated by explanations. Let them think and act for themselves; let their innate integrity initiate itself! Make them explore all life's mysteries, overcome all its dangers. Falsity and fear are their only foe-men. Let them witness birth, marriage, death; let them hear poetry, philosophy, history; compel apprehension but not its articulate expression. Make them face cliffs, billows, animals, finding their own formula of conquest. Thrust Truth on them tirelessly, careful only to make its range all comprehensive; trust them to use it.

V
Let children educate themselves to be themselves. Those who train them to standards cripple and deform them. Alien ideals impose parasitic perversions. Every child is a Sphinx; none knoweth its secret but itself; presumeth Ignorance to initiate Isis? Let the Sphinx brood on its secret, until its hour; one can assist only by leaving it to contemplate existence. Let it behold all things in Earth and Heaven. Guard it inviolably; strengthen it by successive struggles. Be it omniscient, omnipotent, perfected by its own Virtue to serve its own purpose - individual, independent, initiated - Itself!

VI
Procrustes-teachers,' assuming Themselves the "Measure of Mankind," deform children deliberately by Ideals. Gardeners never assimilate poppies to potatoes; they nourish each plant by its own norm, towards excellence in its particular properties. Even elementary education should be adapted to individuals; each mind has its own peculiarities. Why not put boys' bodies into plaster moulds of "Perfection"? All pressure on plastic material is pernicious, thwarting its true tendencies, and perverting its proportions. Monstrous growths compensate constrictions. Education must accustom the mind to meet all eventualities, interpreting, judging, and reacting as its individual necessity demands.

VII
Most people mislead children purposely, alleging necessity to shield them. One falsehood confuses correct conceptions; the brain, bewildered, soon finds conflicting evidence. The contradiction between observed facts and teaching revolts its righteousness. Children distrust the Universe; intelligence revolts; years of aching uncertainty avenge the original deception. Children are also trained to falsify, sophisticate, deny or forget facts; forbidden to face them. Wielding wrong weapons, they encounter unknown or misguided enemies. Nature turns traitor; they distrust themselves; like Gilbert's billiard-sharper, they play "on a cloth untrue with a twisted cue and elliptical billiard balls."2

1 [Procrustes was a mythical Greek figure who made travellers fit his bed, either by stretching or by amputating their limbs.]
2 [Gilbert and Sullivan, The Mikado, or The Town of Titipu (1885); see Works Cited.]

VIII
At Cefalu's Abbey of Te??µa children are as adults. Realities are their right; they observe dispassionately and act responsibly. They are made to extricate themselves from graduated emergencies. They drill, swim, climb, play games, explore town or country alone; they listen to time-tested words. They use their minds accordingly, never in forced forms. They learn truth-seeing, courage, courtesy and independence; to mind their own business, respecting the rights of others, while resenting interference. Apprehending actualities accurately and acting adequately thereon, instead of crying, clinging, cringing, and "making believe," they master self and surroundings.

IX
Young brains store sense-impressions without necessarily judging them. Higher mental faculties develop gradually. It is criminal to force growth, especially in dogmatic directions. Reflection, classification, coordination are devices of the growing mind for dealing with accumulations of detail. Education should simply furnish facts, intelligible or not, of every order. Avoid comment, explanation, moral judgment; the child-mind must manage its material. Truth must be taught as the condition of right relation, courage as that of right reaction. The individual equal to his environment, evolves in perfection. Children so educated are absolutely themselves, adjusted to apprehend and act by autonomous evolution.

X
Evolution demands exceptional individuals, fitter to their environment than their fellows. Species prosper by imitating efficient eccentrics. Mediocrity, self-styled morality, protects the unfit, but prevents progress, discourages adaptability, and assures ultimate ruin to the race. Standards of education, ideals of Right-and-Wrong, conventions, creeds, codes, stagnate Mankind. Encourage original individuals. Beware of squaring the Keystone, or heaving it over among the rubbish! Mediocrity wanted Keats druggist, Gaugin banker, Clive clerk, Mohammed camel-man!1

1 [John Keats (1795 - 1821) The painter Paul Gaugin (1848 - 1903) Baron Robert Clive of Plassey (1725-1774) established British colonial rule in India. Mohammed (570- 632), the so-called prophet and founder of Islam, was originally a camel-driver.]

Nature needs nobility
Vitality vindicates variety.
Preeminence purchases progress.
Superiority safeguards survival.
Abnormality averts atrophy.
Breed for Behemoth!

XI
Every child is absolute.
Dare not bias it or bind!
Give the seed fair play to shoot!
At maturity its mind
Shall perfect its proper fruit,
Self-determined, self-designed!

Durst thou twist that tenderness
To thy whims or theories?
Who adjured thee to assess
Marvels hidden from thine eyes?
Meddler, muddier! Is thy guess
Guaranteed most wondrous wise?

Let it meet and measure things,
Match itself against them, span
Safely the abyss - Earth sings:
"If you know and will, you can!"


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Horemakhet
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11/05/2010 10:22 pm  

Wonderful quotation, Camlion. It continues to marvel me how AC could combine this archaic, yet whimsicaly light & English turn of phrase, with a forceful, Nietzschean, 'man on the mountain' tone & delivery. Astounding, & very Beautiful.


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phthah
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12/05/2010 12:24 am  

93 Az, I started to write this earlier and got sidetrack!

"Azidonis" wrote:
"phthah" wrote:
93,

"Camlion" wrote:
Also, I think the best bet is to raise children not to loose track of their true Wills in the first place.

Good point Cam. In fact, Crowley wrote of the importance of this in Liber Aleph:

"It is important that thou shouldst understand as early as may be what is the true Will of the Child in the Matter of his Career. Be thou well ware of all Ideals and Day-dreams; for the Child is himself, and not thy Toy.

Sounds like focus and discipline to me.

Recall the comic Tragedy of Napoleon and the King of Rome; build not an House for a wild Goat, nor plant a Forest for the Domain of a Shark. But be thou vigilant for every Sign, conscious or unconscious of the Will of the Child, giving him then all Opportunity to pursue the Path which he thus indicates.

If the child shows love an aptitude for playing the piano, let him play the damn piano. My stepson is in the band. He plays trombone. I played football in high school, so for me the band thing is an entirely different way. But, instead of forcing him to play football, I encourage him to play his trombone. Unfortunately for him, he has to deal with the "band geek" stuff, but it is a path he chose.

Learn this, that he, being young, will weary quickly of all false Ways, however pleasant they may be to him at the Outset; but of the true Way he will not weary.

People quite simply have a natural inclination to be who they are, and kids are no different. Perhaps their will to be who they are is even stronger, as they are constantly forced into positions trying to get them to be what they are not. This is one reason education if so very important. When the child is young, she can learn a great many things, and thus have broader options about which path she wants to take. As she begins to take this path, the parents will see it... This doesn't mean that the parents can communicate with her HGA. It means that if you have a 16 year old child, and you have known that child every day for 16 years, and you cannot tell when they are changing, growing, pursuing various interests, then it is possibly not the child that has the problems.

This being in this Manner discovered, thou mayst prepare it for him perfectly; for no Man can keep open all Roads for ever.

When the kid wants to go hiking, hand him a sack lunch, a walking stick, and ask if he wants a companion. Don't tell him he is forbidden to hike, like so many parents do, with so many bad excuses.

And to him making his Choice explain how one may not travel far on any Road without a general Knowledge of Things apparently irrelevant. And with that he will understand, and bend him wisely to his Work."

An even further stress on education.

93 93/93
phthah

93 93/93

Nice commentary Az and I see no fault with it. I would only add that what you are saying seems to sound or give the impression that the Task is rather simple and commonsense, but though you would think it is, it actually is not. You have to be ever vigilant that you are not imposing your own hopes and desires etc. on your child, for as A.C. says (Again in Liber Aleph!) "Thou mayst also assume that it is Part of the Child’s Will to train every Function of the Mind; and the Guardians may therefore combat the inertia which hinders its Development. Yet here is much Caution necessary, and it is better to work by exciting and satisfying any natural Curiosity than by forcing Application to set Tasks, however obvious this Necessity may appear"

93 93/93
phthah


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Azidonis
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12/05/2010 6:44 am  
"phthah" wrote:
Nice commentary Az and I see no fault with it. I would only add that what you are saying seems to sound or give the impression that the Task is rather simple and commonsense, but though you would think it is, it actually is not. You have to be ever vigilant that you are not imposing your own hopes and desires etc. on your child, for as A.C. says (Again in Liber Aleph!) "Thou mayst also assume that it is Part of the Child’s Will to train every Function of the Mind; and the Guardians may therefore combat the inertia which hinders its Development. Yet here is much Caution necessary, and it is better to work by exciting and satisfying any natural Curiosity than by forcing Application to set Tasks, however obvious this Necessity may appear"

93 93/93
phthah

93,

Ya, that's part of it for sure. I'm always having to remember my own childhood and how I felt and approached so many situations. While other children are not me, it does help to "become the reader" in a sense. The neighborhood kids two doors down are absolutely atrocious. However, I always try to keep in mind that 1) they actually suffer from a lack of proper discipline, and 2) if I had the same lack of discipline at their age, I'd be doing the same crap. Such observations help immensely when trying to explain to a 4 year old who is only a neighbor why she should have her clothing on in the presence of young 6 year old neighbor boys.

I admit, being around children is like a constant cooking contest. One is always trying to make sure to insert just the right ingredients at just the right times in order to help guide the kid along his or her own way without interfering too much. It also helps when the parents themselves are able to do this.

Nothing burns my ass more out of a parent or a child than to see a child who 1) lies, 2) has no respect for others, whether it be in conversation or with property.

There was a thread about what, 3 years ago about Thelema and Children. I've just tried to find it, but to no avail. Anyway, it covers much of this stuff.

I suppose "Thelema-like" qualities all begins with the child? 🙂


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 Anonymous
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12/05/2010 7:34 pm  

I am curious as to what you all think of such common practices as teaching young children to pray to and have faith in the imaginary 'old aeon' gods of man, and its effect upon these individuals with regard to their relating to their own true Wills.


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 Anonymous
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12/05/2010 8:37 pm  

I think a child developing a relationship with a deity is a useful aspect of self-evolution. It has nothing to do with whether the deity actually exists or not, but rather on developing the mind’s attunement toward Otherness, toward mystery. Learning to enflame oneself in prayer is a key technique for successful magick and activating True Will.


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 Anonymous
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12/05/2010 8:47 pm  

Well, God as all God's is not a thing or person that exists, rather it is a construction that expresses the relation between the Will and the world, it is a model of how the self fits into the higher scheme of things.

The problem with the old aeon Gods is that the child is given a standard idea of what God is and is constrained to accept that God, and to fit himself into that conception. Also there is a great deal of dependency that comes with this God, which basicaly states that some aspect outside of oneself cares for you and will move mountains to keep you safe and happy. It discourages maturity and taking action into one's own hands, in favor of a view that the universe is a safe and loving father.
It does not give the child a chance to develop an internal locus of control.

The HGA model creates, is build by trial and error, it shapes what one should be based on what one actually is, so that one is not held up to the ideal of Christ, but rather to an Ideal unique to and devised by the individual to guide and shape his own ideal course of development.

Teaching a child to pray, is teaching him to rely on external help and to need others to guide, to provide him with ethical codes and what life path to lead.
Teach instead that child, how to meditate, introspect, and to refine the method of logic and science to avoid biases and false conclusions. To apply that method to his own actions, so that he might discover/create his HGA. The personification of his own TRUE WILL, the only role model he will ever need, his ideal self that in not distracted, lazy, procrastinating, and nervous.


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Azidonis
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12/05/2010 9:32 pm  

93,

I had a friend years ago who's 9 year old boy said Will before every meal, could recite the Stele from memory (and did so as part of his evening prayer), and other things. He knew there was a God named Ra Hoor Khuit who was as much a part of himself as anything else, and RHK watched over him. The boy had a very natural sense of independence, and was "spiritually" fulfilled as well.

My stepson asked me about God one day, at the age of 12. I explained to him how God is in everything and is all things, and how no part of the Universe is not God.

I think overall that while it is important to let a child in on the realistic sides of things, it is also important to give them a spiritual sense of nourishment. Adults can either do with or without it, depending on if their mindset is more scientific. A child however, needs an outlet for her hopes and dreams, and may or may not need to fill that spiritual "void" that many people harbor well into adulthood.

As Crowley said in Liber Aleph, the method is unique to each child. It makes sense then that some children will be more mechanically or scientifically oriented, and thus will not settle for a simple explanation of RHK as being a God that watches over him. As such, it would be more beneficial to give them a more realistic interpretation from the get-go.

Under no circumstance do I think a child should be allowed to view the idea of God in the sense that they are taught to view the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus, as some intangible figure that pops in and out of their lives as it chooses. If this sort of thing even begins to happen, it is a tell-tale sign that the child should be taught of the inner nature of God particular to each being... in essence, the HGA. If the child is brought up to learn that Hadit and Nuit are all-encompassing "beings" or "aspects of being", and that Ra Hoor Khuit is a particular product of their interaction, the child may indeed be able to better formulate a personal idea of RHK and the HGA later on down the road, and not get stuck in the disillusion many children do when they learn that Stana Claus is only a myth.

93 93/93


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lashtal
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12/05/2010 9:36 pm  
"Horemakhet" wrote:
AC could combine this archaic, yet whimsicaly light & English turn of phrase, with a forceful, Nietzschean, 'man on the mountain' tone & delivery. Astounding, & very Beautiful.

Nicely put, Horemakhet...

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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phthah
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13/05/2010 12:29 am  

93,

"Azidonis" wrote:
I suppose "Thelema-like" qualities all begins with the child? 🙂

HA! Well it is the Aeon of the Child after all. 😀

"Azidonis" wrote:
...and not get stuck in the disillusion many children do when they learn that Stana Claus is only a myth...

I actually new Stan Claus. He was never quite the same after shaving his beard and losing all that weight though! 😉

93 93/93
phthah


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 Anonymous
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13/05/2010 5:52 pm  
"name538" wrote:
The problem with the old aeon Gods is that the child is given a standard idea of what God is and is constrained to accept that God, and to fit himself into that conception. Also there is a great deal of dependency that comes with this God, which basicaly states that some aspect outside of oneself cares for you and will move mountains to keep you safe and happy. It discourages maturity and taking action into one's own hands, in favor of a view that the universe is a safe and loving father.
It does not give the child a chance to develop an internal locus of control.

[...]

Teaching a child to pray, is teaching him to rely on external help and to need others to guide, to provide him with ethical codes and what life path to lead.

I lean very strongly in this direction on this question, myself. I would add also that this 'god almighty,' besides being so benevolent as to "move mountains to keep you safe and happy," is usually credited with the capacity and inclination to judge and seek retribution for wayward behavior; hence the 'god-fearing' nature of so many of his 'children.' Not really an entirely comforting fairy tale at all.

"tai" wrote:
I think a child developing a relationship with a deity is a useful aspect of self-evolution. It has nothing to do with whether the deity actually exists or not, but rather on developing the mind’s attunement toward Otherness, toward mystery. Learning to enflame oneself in prayer is a key technique for successful magick and activating True Will.

Wow, tai. This comment sort of falls into that "every cloud has a silver lining" category. I wonder where you would draw the line at what is acceptable interference with a child's natural development? Is there anything one might do to a child that is unacceptable interference, in your opinion?

"Azidonis" wrote:
I had a friend years ago who's 9 year old boy said Will before every meal, could recite the Stele from memory (and did so as part of his evening prayer), and other things. He knew there was a God named Ra Hoor Khuit who was as much a part of himself as anything else, and RHK watched over him.

Wow to you, too, Az. 🙂 I sounds sort of like the name "Ra Hoor Khuit" might be replacing the name of the previous 'god' in the same old monotheistic myth, with a hint of 'one in all - all in one' Eastern flavor? Is that what this is?


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 Anonymous
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13/05/2010 10:10 pm  

Ra-hoor-khuit is not really a Pantheist concept actually

Nuit and Hadit, are non-manifest potentiality, in expansion and concentration.

Heru-ra-Ha is oneself the active and passive, conscious and unconscious self, the twin serpents of the caduceus Wand.
You might relate Ra-hoor-Khuit to the sympathetic nervous system that accelerates and activates the body functions, while Hoor-Paar-Kraat is the Para-sympathetic nervous system that calms and slows the body functions.

Thus Oneself is Horus, the child of Hadit and Nuit, the internal subjective and the external objective.
And Horus himself a twin God that is the entwined duality of active and passive, unified in a single organism.
Thus Ra-Hoor-Khuit is tho active part of the cosmic child, not in anyway identical with Nuit, in the same way that a tornado is not to be identified with Climate. Climate is turbulent storms but it is also the calm of a cool breezeless afternoon. The calm and the violent weather make up the climate, which is the child of the physical world, but the climate is not the earth itself, much less the stars.


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 Anonymous
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13/05/2010 10:16 pm  
"tai" wrote:
Learning to enflame oneself in prayer is a key technique for successful magick and activating True Will.

I agree on the wisdom of discussing and educating a child on the different kinds of prayer, and different ways to pray. A form of prayer that Sufis call zikr can be very useful, but I wouldn't push any particular method; educate them on the subject and let them follow their own inclinations. Playing a musical instrument can be a wonderful form of prayer.

At some point, I would feel it necessary to inform the child about the Old Aeonic religions, pros and cons, as objectively as possible so they would have an easier time relating to their friends who may have been brainwashed into the older traditions.

Above all, I would, following Gurdjieff, teach the child to have the utmost respect for other people's beliefs - as long as it doesn't harm anyone. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law does not only mean discovering and following one's own True Will, but having the tolerance to allow others to follow theirs unhindered. Coercing a child, or anyone, into having a belief in any religion or dogmatic belief system, seems brutal and sadistic.

The subject of how to raise children Thelemically is a fascinating one, and one that I have a great deal of interest in.


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Azidonis
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14/05/2010 12:25 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
I had a friend years ago who's 9 year old boy said Will before every meal, could recite the Stele from memory (and did so as part of his evening prayer), and other things. He knew there was a God named Ra Hoor Khuit who was as much a part of himself as anything else, and RHK watched over him.
"Camlion" wrote:
Wow to you, too, Az. 🙂 I sounds sort of like the name "Ra Hoor Khuit" might be replacing the name of the previous 'god' in the same old monotheistic myth, with a hint of 'one in all - all in one' Eastern flavor? Is that what this is?

93,

I think it was more along the lines of an introduction to the concept of the HGA. If you asked the kid about RHK he would tell you that, like I said, was as much a part of him as anything else.

The "watched over him" part I never actually heard him say, but it would seem to me that even if one is recognizing one's inner nature, it still watches over one in the sense of developing a conscience and what-not. Or maybe for him it was much simpler. Perhaps it was more of an actual beginning set of practices for the boy. Maybe he just did it, accepted it was the way things are, and never questioned it.

Then again, one of the world's most prominent religions makes a "holy" practice out of kissing a meteorite... so there's no telling what the 9 year old thought about it. I would have asked him, but I really preferred to stay clear of such conversations with him, especially seeing how his dad was my Superior at the time.

93 93/93


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Horemakhet
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14/05/2010 12:46 am  

I was raised to be a Jehovah's Witness; a sect who are closely related to what AC was raised with. I have even been called "The Beast"( though not by my mother). In my experience, Christianity destroyed my relationship with my family, & with my immediate community. It became my Adversary. So, it made me stronger as a person, but I would never want my own children to have to deal with the pain I went through.


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 Anonymous
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14/05/2010 7:56 pm  
"zardoz" wrote:
"tai" wrote:
Learning to enflame oneself in prayer is a key technique for successful magick and activating True Will.

I agree on the wisdom of discussing and educating a child on the different kinds of prayer, and different ways to pray.

I agree, provided that they show a natural interest in such things, perhaps after encountering images of the practice or some other casual contact. Otherwise, it may be of no value to them whatsoever. I think it's important to remember that what is of value to individual children may have nothing in common with what is of value to their parents or siblings, or to anyone else they know, for that matter.

"zardoz" wrote:
At some point, I would feel it necessary to inform the child about the Old Aeonic religions, pros and cons, as objectively as possible so they would have an easier time relating to their friends who may have been brainwashed into the older traditions.

Yes, information about conditions prevalent in the child's environment can certainly be an advantage, particularly with regard to potential hazards and risks, snakes in the grass and so on, presented as objectively as possible.

"zardoz" wrote:
Coercing a child, or anyone, into having a belief in any religion or dogmatic belief system, seems brutal and sadistic.

I consider it to be child abuse, nothing less, myself. It may very well be the root of most genuine evil in the world, I agree.

"zardoz" wrote:
The subject of how to raise children Thelemically is a fascinating one, and one that I have a great deal of interest in.

Agreed, key to the future and all.


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 Anonymous
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14/05/2010 8:30 pm  

What in thelema is necessary rather than accidental, I suppose is the original topic.

I would say necessary to Thelema is that

We are part of the world, that you can not separate any part of yourself from the natural forces.

That those natural forces can be understood objectively via physics.

That those same forces can be understood personally in terms of their emotional and intuitive interactions in our mind's eye.

That all terms like God(s), Spirits, HGA, elementals, etc. Refer to metaphorical expressions of the sensation real physical forces produce via the mind's eye. (That is they are not literal mirrors of the physical world).

That our relation to the physical world, can get confused with ideas that we are told or that we want to believe rather than what we actually have experienced directly.

That the Key to Thelema, is to learn to separate the ideas you have been told or imagined about yourself and about the world, from the actual facts of direct and rationally scrutinized experiences. Then to Hold fast to that TRUE SELF and it's TRUE relation to the world. To learn self discipline to follow the truth of direct experience and shun the fantasy of what you would personally like to be, believe or do.

That morality comes only from these direct experiences of the self and the world, not from tradition, social custom, religious threats/rewards, or from your parents demands. That YOU discover what you are (you don't get to choose) and you Do that which is your purpose in relation to the world (no matter if you like it or not). If you come into conflict with other people, either you or they are mistaken, so either you or they must change course. You should not back down, unless you realize you were mistaken. If you cross paths, Duel it out, "as brothers Fight Ye!"

It is unthelemic to be cowardly or to forfeit in a challenge, do not abdicate if you near a conflict, go into it with pride and ferocity, the winner was right, the loser will have a course correction.

"Every man is king in the reach of this sword arm and may do as he pleases, the swords of other men will set his limits"


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Azidonis
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14/05/2010 9:18 pm  

93,

"zardoz" wrote:
Coercing a child, or anyone, into having a belief in any religion or dogmatic belief system, seems brutal and sadistic.
"Camlion" wrote:
I consider it to be child abuse, nothing less, myself. It may very well be the root of most genuine evil in the world, I agree.

This, for certain.

I do agree with the rest of what both of you have said too.

Name538, I think that aside from all of the things you said, what really matters is that Thelema is one of the few "religions" that actually invites science. This invitation, in and of itself, is a very Thelema-like quality, being as there are very few religions in this world that actually do invite science wholeheartedly.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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14/05/2010 10:29 pm  
"name538" wrote:
That our relation to the physical world, can get confused with ideas that we are told or that we want to believe rather than what we actually have experienced directly.

That the Key to Thelema, is to learn to separate the ideas you have been told or imagined about yourself and about the world, from the actual facts of direct and rationally scrutinized experiences. Then to Hold fast to that TRUE SELF and it's TRUE relation to the world. To learn self discipline to follow the truth of direct experience and shun the fantasy of what you would personally like to be, believe or do.

One of Hessle's "conclusions." Since you brought this up, the only trouble is that one's "pretty pictures" of oneself might just coincidentally be identical to one's true Will. Although they likely are not, they cannot be ruled out with certainty and discarded before these too are evaluated. Even some vain and glorious, fanciful or just plain silly seeming self-image may coincidentally be valid. There is no hard and fast rule that one is not what one would like to be. Everything must be evaluated through objective introspection and self-analysis. This theory is a case of swinging the pendulum in the opposite direction in too far an extreme, the idea that one must necessarily personally dislike one's true Will for it really to be one's true Will.

Other than for this important exception, I see this as a valid point.

The value of this digression into the subject of raising children in accord with Thelema is that, if raised properly, people will actually enjoy being who they really are and they will behave accordingly, doing their true Wills. Being distracted into delusionary self-images will be much, much less likely.


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the_real_simon_iff
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14/05/2010 11:07 pm  
"name538" wrote:
Then to Hold fast to that TRUE SELF and it's TRUE relation to the world. To learn self discipline to follow the truth of direct experience and shun the fantasy of what you would personally like to be, believe or do.

93!

Even if you write it in capitals eleven stories high, nobody here has ever managed to define TRUE scientifically. So far people only seemed to have found extremely personal and subjective "explanations" for their apparent behaviour and attitude, like not liking spinach, icehockey, occultists and other important stuff. But I agree, the theory sounds cool and easy. On the other hand, shunning fantasies not only sounds pretty boring to me, but absolutely conflictive to the process of searching for your TRUE SELF.

But hey, it IS complicated to deal with someone telling you not to listen what people tell you...

I have no final opinion on Thelema (or anything), but I try to approach the equation DWTW = LAW from the other end, namely LOVE = LAW, or DWTW = LOVE. So far I am doing fine with this fantasy...

Love=Law
Lutz


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 Anonymous
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15/05/2010 8:33 am  
"the_real_simon_iff" wrote:
Even if you write it in capitals eleven stories high, nobody here has ever managed to define TRUE scientifically.

Perhaps, as Terence McKenna says (quoting, I think, a Greek - Heraclitus perhaps), the notion of "True" (capital "T", as a pretence to objectivity) is little more than a problematic, phantasmal word-trap.

And what we really should concern ourselves with instead, is that which is true enough ?


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 Anonymous
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15/05/2010 8:55 am  
"Noctifer" wrote:
Perhaps, as Terence McKenna says (quoting, I think, a Greek - Heraclitus perhaps)... true enough ?

Wittgenstein. Not Heraclitus. 😳


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 Anonymous
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15/05/2010 8:58 am  

Also worth pointing out, perhaps, that the expression "true will" does not occur once in the Book of the Law.


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 Anonymous
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15/05/2010 5:33 pm  
"Noctifer" wrote:
Also worth pointing out, perhaps, that the expression "true will" does not occur once in the Book of the Law.

In Liber AL it is "pure will," and some purists prefer that usage. 🙂

Personally, I have agreed with and adopted AC's interpretations and usage of "true Will."


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/05/2010 5:38 pm  
"the_real_simon_iff" wrote:
I have no final opinion on Thelema (or anything), but I try to approach the equation DWTW = LAW from the other end, namely LOVE = LAW, or DWTW = LOVE. So far I am doing fine with this fantasy...

Hi Lutz. Is it still 'love under will,' in your fantasy, or has it become 'will under love'? 😉


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/05/2010 6:19 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
"Noctifer" wrote:
Also worth pointing out, perhaps, that the expression "true will" does not occur once in the Book of the Law.

In Liber AL it is "pure will," and some purists prefer that usage. 🙂

Personally, I have agreed with and adopted AC's interpretations and usage of "true Will."

So, Camlion . . . instead of a "purist", you're a "truist", then?

As in, Al-Truism?

😆


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/05/2010 6:49 pm  
"Noctifer" wrote:
"Camlion" wrote:
"Noctifer" wrote:
Also worth pointing out, perhaps, that the expression "true will" does not occur once in the Book of the Law.

In Liber AL it is "pure will," and some purists prefer that usage. 🙂

Personally, I have agreed with and adopted AC's interpretations and usage of "true Will."

So, Camlion . . . instead of a "purist", you're a "truist", then?

As in, Al-Truism?

😆

Yep. 🙂


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/05/2010 6:53 pm  

Crowley used True WILL because people tend to use the word will incorrectly, when the word want, desire, feel compelled, etc would be a better word choice.


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