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Thelemites and Libertarians (prolly only suit US citizens)  

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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
16/07/2007 2:37 am  

Hello all, now I am not here to say Join the Libertarian Party! I am just here to say I see a huge similarity of views between Thelema and Libertarian! Could this party be a step closer to a True Will and Love driven society? I mean Libertarian is the third largest party in the United States. If people were to actually vote for their views that are Libertarians rather than have to switch to democrat or republican because they dont think Libertarians will win... well then they could win! Anyways back to the point to posting this topic: What's your views on Libertarianism and the future of the US society and its connection to Thelema?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
16/07/2007 4:32 am  

93,

This is a great topic.

In an earlier thread, it was several months earlier, maybe even from last year, the issue of politics and Thelema came up, and the dominate view by members posting at that time was that Thelema is not related to politics, that is, not a political philosopy but a religious or metaphysical one. This is true, in my view, but religious philosophies spill over into politics every day, especially in the good ol' US of A.

For my part, I don't think that Libertarianism is a good political philosophy, and my own interpretation of Thelema is not terribly compatible with it - although that certainly doesn't mean I hold anything against Thelemic libertarians. Liber CXCIV lays down laws for the governing of any "Thelemic province" that has much more in common with Theocracy than Democracy or Libertarianism. I also recall a quote from Crowley about Democracy being rule by the weak, or some such. Hopefully Aum will show up soon and use his encyclopedic knowledge to elucidate the quote.

Personally, I am much more enamored with Meritocracy than Theocracy. The disaster that was the attempt to reform the social security system several years ago in the US is largely attributable, in my opinion, to ignorance on the part of politicans and the public. This ignorance is understandable. I'm not a mathematician or a health care professional, how in the hell am I supposed to know how to reform so complex a system? The same problem sabatoged the 2000 election. Bush won because of corruption, and also because he was easier to understand than Gore - who was simply too smart and his ideas too complicated for the average citizen to grasp.

Living in Beijing I know that next spring I can expect more sandstorms than last spring because of desertification - a dramatic result of global warming. I wish the US was ruled by a dictator, but a sensible dictator who knew enough to force drastic change in order to halt global warming.

Now I admit I don't know exactly how a Shangren-inspired Meritocracy would function, but I do think that enviromental experts should be deciding environmental policy, and health care professionals should have a major say in the Healthcare system. All with some kind of oversight to root out corruption, of course.

This is much more in line with what I view as the purpose of government - to ensure the freedom of every individual to discover and accomplish their true Will. I think universal healthcare is a right of all people. The purpose of this incarnation is for me to find my true will, and I can't do that if I can't afford to have my cancer treated.

In a more realistic vein, I'm a big fan of the kind of Social Democracy prevalent in Scandinavia. People pay crazy taxes, but the societies are prosperous and wealthy, with a high standard of living, universal healthcare and other services, and many of them are extremely free societies - such as Amsterdam, for example.

Even China, whatever one thinks of the Communist government, is a pretty free society for the average person. In some ways more free than the US - I can walk down the street drinking a beer, for example.

I'm not trying to say China is a model of great government, only that the political situation in America still exists, even after 9/11, in a kind of vaccuum. If more Americans were better educated about the world, they might realize that solutions have already been thought up to some of our problems - but, if Americans were better educated, I might not be calling for Meritocratic form of government. 🙄

Love=Law

- Shangren


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
16/07/2007 5:13 am  

Liber CXCIV sets down the rules for governance of the OTO, not 'every Thelemic body' or anything close to that - that stance, in my opinion, is ridiculous. There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.

Libertarianism is pretty cool in my view - makes more sense than the majority of the wacky political views I hear from all corners, I think. The future of US society? Too broad and speculative for any realistic prediction - if someone told me what is happening how was teh future 10 years ago, I wouldve laughed and/or shit myself. Its connection to Thelema? Honestly, directly, little to nothing - especially if bullshit 'documentaries' about Crowley/Thelema continue in the same ridiculous, poorly produced ways.

65 & 210,
111-418


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
16/07/2007 6:32 am  
"Aum418" wrote:
Liber CXCIV sets down the rules for governance of the OTO, not 'every Thelemic body' or anything close to that - that stance, in my opinion, is ridiculous. There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.

Libertarianism is pretty cool in my view - makes more sense than the majority of the wacky political views I hear from all corners, I think. The future of US society? Too broad and speculative for any realistic prediction - if someone told me what is happening how was teh future 10 years ago, I wouldve laughed and/or shit myself. Its connection to Thelema? Honestly, directly, little to nothing - especially if bullshit 'documentaries' about Crowley/Thelema continue in the same ridiculous, poorly produced ways.

65 & 210,
111-418

Nice reply Aum. Just one question. Could you see Libertarianism in anyway a closer step to reforming this society to freedom so that we all can finally Do what thou wilt without interference of a law? not as a prediction but as seeing its potential to do so. I am not saying it is perfect I just believe it is a good on ramp to where we need to go for individual freedom from certain ridiculous laws. Basically new and good starting point or gateway.


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Proteus
(@proteus)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 243
16/07/2007 11:11 pm  

especially if bullshit 'documentaries' about Crowley/Thelema continue in the same ridiculous, poorly produced ways.

I don't get it... What's the correlation between the quality of Crowley documentaries and the future of US society?

John


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
17/07/2007 1:07 am  
"Proteus" wrote:

especially if bullshit 'documentaries' about Crowley/Thelema continue in the same ridiculous, poorly produced ways.

I don't get it... What's the correlation between the quality of Crowley documentaries and the future of US society?

John

Ill give you the benefit of the doubt and assume I wrote unclearly. The connection is that these videos are PR for Thelema and Crowley - look at how many people have viewed the online documentaries about Crowley and such. The media has a lot of power over many many peoples opinions, even if you think it doesnt affect you. There are few if any remotely positive representations of Thelema and Crowley. The future of Thelema, at least in the publics eyes (especially if it will have a remotely minute effect on US society) will at least partly depend on how he is depicted in documentaries, in public media discussion ,etc. How many times have you seen a reference to Crowley, even in somethign that is not a hitpiece, NOT refer to him as Satan-worshipping, a Black magician, etc? Is that clear enough for you?


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1827
17/07/2007 1:40 am  

Aum418-

I thought Thelema, like the Tao, is going to go its Way unaffected even by the catastrophic states foreshadowed in Liber AL. Even should the populus remain ignorant of AC's life and work, even should they forsake all modes of progressive thought and spiritual aspiration, the Current moves and cuts its own path through the miasma. With all due regard for the Crowleyan foundation of this site, do you think Thelema is dependent upon the success of "PR" for the subculture based in Crowleyan Magick and Philosophy-or even the word "Thelema" Itself?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
17/07/2007 2:34 am  
"kidneyhawk" wrote:
Aum418-

I thought Thelema, like the Tao, is going to go its Way unaffected even by the catastrophic states foreshadowed in Liber AL. Even should the populus remain ignorant of AC's life and work, even should they forsake all modes of progressive thought and spiritual aspiration, the Current moves and cuts its own path through the miasma. With all due regard for the Crowleyan foundation of this site, do you think Thelema is dependent upon the success of "PR" for the subculture based in Crowleyan Magick and Philosophy-or even the word "Thelema" Itself?

I never suggested Thelema itself is dependent upon such things - I am not sure how you could misread my multiple posts as such. Its effect on US society, at least right now, perhaps is. It is largely dampened by the total bullshit that is put out in relation to him. Type 'aleister crowley' into google video or youtube and tell me you find one remotely appealing/positive video about him. The post wasnt about Thelema itself subsisting throughout the ages but how it will have a remotely marginal effect on 'US society.' Right now, I can tell you, it has little to zero influence. Look at the numbers, adn look at every single press release that mentions Crowley. People are still ignorant enogugh to call him a Satan worshipping Black Magician, even after 80 or so years of his Wickedest Man in the World whatnot, and even if theyre not out to put him down.

Thinking that a philosophy based on physical writings is like a metaphysical abstraction like the Tao makes me laugh a little. Im talking about practical matters, not poetic fancifulness, kyle.

If you cannot understand how the consistent media nonsense about Crowley has an effect on its hold on 'US society,' then I feel like its not even worth explaining.

210 & 65,
111-418


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1827
17/07/2007 2:58 am  

Aum,

I live in the US. If there is a

consistent media nonsense about Crowley

(which there certainly IS)

then its symptomatic of a much larger scenario, an atmosphere which inundates with

consistent media nonsense

all around.

I think this is ONE of the reasons AC still carries the bag of tabloid infamy behind him. I don't know of any "defamers" who have really explored and examined his work. It's simply too much, I think, for a shallow feeding...and he, along with many other expressions of passion for the depths, is swept aside for titilating shots of prurience.

But what I was getting at is that, to my perspective, what AC, in prophetic role, identified and loudly proclaimed as "Thelema" is the source of the

physical writings

rather than the other way around. As such, it's nature is to both destroy and create as it goes-and it will birth more than Liber AL in it's sweeping cosmic flood.

Hence, a political party in the US or even a given occult movement or society will exist in some relation to the "flood." If bad press follows, there are intrinsic reasons WHY. AC was no more "libertine" than others who have come to acclaim (such as Oscar Wilde) but his threat went beyond a disturbance of "moral sensibilities." He shook the foundations of very deeply-ingrained religious views and I think it is quite possible that even were his "track record" devoid of "on the edge" sexual exploration, drug-use etc. the very basis of his work would present deeply unsettling perspectives which the "sleepers" instinctively react to with an eagerly conjoined revulsion.

As I alluded to Oscar Wilde, it is interesting to reflect on the film "Wilde." I'd like to see something like that created around AC. Given the lurid prospects of the "themes," I can't imagine how Hollywood would see such a screenplay as anything other than a "hit." And yet Wilde was filled with superb filming, pathos, many dimensions of the controversial man...I don't see why the Crowley film would be expected to emerge with anything less.

In fact, I'm really rather boggled that it hasn't been done.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
17/07/2007 2:52 pm  
"Aum418" wrote:
Thinking that a philosophy based on physical writings is like a metaphysical abstraction like the Tao makes me laugh a little.

So your saying Thelema which we get from the physical writing of Liber AL is not in any way a "metaphysical abstraction" like the Tao which we get from the physical writing of the Tao Te Ching?

If so, what qualifies the Tao as being other than a philosophy based on physical writing (The Tao Te Ching - there's loads of translations easily available)?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
17/07/2007 3:20 pm  
"nashimiron" wrote:
"Aum418" wrote:
Thinking that a philosophy based on physical writings is like a metaphysical abstraction like the Tao makes me laugh a little.

So your saying Thelema which we get from the physical writing of Liber AL is not in any way a "metaphysical abstraction" like the Tao which we get from the physical writing of the Tao Te Ching?

If so, what qualifies the Tao as being other than a philosophy based on physical writing (The Tao Te Ching - there's loads of translations easily available)?

No, but I am amazed how many people are consistently misreading my posts!

Thelema as a concept is just like Tao as a concept.

Thelema as a philosophy is just like Taoism as a philosophy. Unfortunately, the words are the same (its not Thelema-ism for example) so confusion can arise.

I think Thelema as a philosophy is not like Tao as a concept. Is that clear enough?

Kidneyhawk is assuming that hte philosophy itself is like a 93 current (a phrase which I despise), which I really think is just fanciful fluff for your faultering selective perception (like everyone is just in relation to this 93 current, so everything that is remotely Thelemic is part of this current.) I am not sure why so many people have a hard time understanding these fairly straightforward concepts? We can be poeticaly fanciful and pretend like Thelema is 'cutting through the miasma,' but in reality - the OTO is the biggest public organization related to Thelema, and in my opinon, they are not very influential on 'US society' in the least. To pretend otherwise is to completely kid(neyhawk) yourself.

210 & 65,
111-418


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
17/07/2007 3:44 pm  

I think Thelema as a philosophy is not like Tao as a concept.

So then can it also be said that Tao as a philosophy is not like Thelema as a concept?

Kidneyhawk is assuming that hte philosophy itself is like a 93 current (a phrase which I despise), which I really think is just fanciful fluff for your faultering selective perception (like everyone is just in relation to this 93 current, so everything that is remotely Thelemic is part of this current.) I am not sure why so many people have a hard time understanding these fairly straightforward concepts?

Oh boy. Uh- not so much but I'll refrain from further comment
93
Kym


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
Member
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17/07/2007 3:59 pm  

Kidneyhawk is assuming that hte philosophy itself is like a 93 current

Er...not really. I was attempting to express that the 93 Current (a rather commonly shared TERM for what it denotes) resurges into modes of expression and action i.e. a given philosophy. Hence, my view that sink or swim, OTO Inc. and all "PR" for the "Product", is not some crucial thing for "helping it along" (like an ad campaign for the weather). The strides towards liberty (be it social-political or spiritual) emerge from a source-and that source is the Current Itself.

We can be poeticaly fanciful and pretend like Thelema is 'cutting through the miasma,' but in reality

Is it not-? Do you not see this "force" (for lack of better word) unfolding in allthe events of the last century? And before? AC indicated that it was up to us to determine how the "Child would grow" i.e. how we consciously choose to relate to the Current (learn to swim or kick against the pricks) but the Current is NOT solely relative to human existence, as so much philosophy is. We exist within a creative space within the consciousness of the continuum, a space which can be moved outwards and thereby opening up more possibilities-something moves us to this in both awareness and action.

Everything is rising up and sinking into a great ocean's pulse. When one mode or form of expression dies and dissolves, new ones will rise. The Current informs the expression, not the other way around.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
17/07/2007 4:06 pm  
"Aum418" wrote:
No, but I am amazed how many people are consistently misreading my posts!

Gimme a chance, that was the first of your posts i've actually read! (Selective perception can be very useful.) 😆

"Aum418" wrote:
Thelema as a philosophy is not like Tao as a concept. Is that clear enough?

Your having me on? I'm afraid whatever your point is it's as clear as mud to me.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 3951
17/07/2007 4:22 pm  
"Aum418" wrote:
[No, but I am amazed how many people are consistently misreading my posts!

Why might so many people be consistently misreading your posts?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
17/07/2007 10:23 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
"Aum418" wrote:
[No, but I am amazed how many people are consistently misreading my posts!

Why might so many people be consistently misreading your posts?

I am not sure, but I can tell what you are passive aggresively asserting, sweetheart!

Once again: Thelema understood as a philosophy, if we took it on the same level as say Buddhist philosophy's influence on humanity, or Christianity's influence, or Gurdjieff's philosophial influence etc... On this level, Thelema is a philosophy, not a concept of Will. Tao is not Tao Teh Ching; also, Tao is not Taoism. Thelema understood as "Will" or True Will or whatever is not Thelema as a name of a set of philosophies. Thelema (as the idea "Will") is not Thelema understood as a philosophy (Thelemaism, for clarification as if Tao:Taoism::Thelema:Thelemeism). Look at Taoism. It has MUCH less hold on 'World Society' than it did before, but the concept of the Tao still very much remains. In the same way, the concepts of Thelema may exist but Thelema as a philosophy wont just naturally 'cut through the miasma' especially if public opinion is that hte prophet is a satanic black magician.


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frater_cug
(@frater_cug)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 73
17/07/2007 11:17 pm  
"Tool93" wrote:
I am just here to say I see a huge similarity of views between Thelema and Libertarian! Could this party be a step closer to a True Will and Love driven society?

I'd say it would be a step closer, however the Libertarians seem to be a paranoid bunch. It's seems many of them live in fear of the UN for example.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
18/07/2007 7:43 pm  

I concur Aum.

As for popular opinion... How much of that in the US is formed by the religious right?
I ask because of all the evangelists on TV going on about the End times, Whore of Babylon, Great Beast, Abomination of Desolation etc etc, they sure do love their book of revelation lol.

Rev. D


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