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dom
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18/08/2018 4:21 am  

1:59. My incense is of resinous woods & gums; and there is no blood therein: because of my hair the trees of Eternity.

"Trees of eternity" or "trees" of eternity i.e. the implication is that all trees are inherently of eternity (Her hair) or that what is being referred to is just a specific minority of trees "of resinous woods & gums" and it is only they that are of eternity?

Over to you elitemachinery.

Whilst we're on the subject it looks like the physical earth is being referenced here and not some all encompassing "world" as in 'universe'. If these trees are hair then they must protrude from the skin of The Queen of Space which must therefore be the layers of the Earth?

The same heavenly body (the Earth) is also said to be Her "heart" 1:53 (that pumps cardiovascular sap (not blood))?


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Jamie J Barter
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19/08/2018 6:57 pm  

@dom :

“Trees of eternity” or “trees” of eternity i.e. the implication is that all trees are inherently of eternity (Her hair) or that what is being referred to is just a specific minority of trees “of resinous woods & gums” and it is only they that are of eternity?
I'm sure I'm not the only one not clear on what it is you're asking here or in the title dom - care to rephrase?

Over to you elitemachinery.
Is there any reason why this should be turned over to elitemachinery, who has not appeared in this thread so far? Are you implying that he might somehow have some "inside track" information on this, in view of his putative claim (not so far rescinded, to my knowledge) to be a reincarnation of Aleister Crowley?

Whilst we’re on the subject it looks like the physical earth is being referenced here and not some all encompassing “world” as in ‘universe’. If these trees are hair then they must protrude from the skin of The Queen of Space which must therefore be the layers of the Earth?
Why do you think it refers to "the physical Earth"? If a metaphorical meaning is involved, the suggestion is of "Trees of Life" in the 4 Worlds extending into degrees of manifestation ad infinitum, or some conception such as Yggdrasil. What is the main characteristic, the USP about trees? - That they grow and proliferate, from the smallest point (bindu or acorn kernel).
In addition, by your closing reference to the "heavenly body (the Earth)" and by your use of "skin" (where really you're presumably referring to her "scalp") if you're actually adopting a literal reading here, consider how many planets there must be in the universe (probably far more than stars) and then why should Earth, out of all of those, be regarded as having been singled out to be the scalp of Nuit in particular? Is the implication that the planet is unique (or alone) in the universe?

This must be one of the most curious & obscure verses in The Book of the Law, not least 'because' of its use of the word because to impart information, which is elsewhere (Chapter 2) decried as being "accursed" and condemned as a pit to perish in: it also seems like two separate verses conjoined together, where, if not, it's difficult to see how & why the second part should then give rise to bloodless incense, of all things.

Norma N Joy Conquest


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dom
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19/08/2018 11:16 pm  

I’m sure I’m not the only one not clear on what it is you’re asking here or in the title dom – care to rephrase?

Is Nuit saying that all trees are eternal by dint of them being trees or is there just a minority of special eternal trees unlike the rest of the trees?


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pegasus
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20/08/2018 6:35 am  

Gaia lives ..... you don't need my commentary about every blade of grass is alive but saying that, for all the transmutations I have undergone, all I have learned has taught me one thing... I don't know anything so instead of waffle may I please ask for help...


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dom
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20/08/2018 11:32 pm  

Biological definitions of life, what it is and how it came about. Mineral and vegetable.


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Jamie J Barter
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21/08/2018 12:12 am  

“Trees of eternity” or “trees” of eternity i.e. the implication is that all trees are inherently of eternity (Her hair) or that what is being referred to is just a specific minority of trees “of resinous woods & gums” and it is only they that are of eternity?

At present I'm inclined towards the second. though please don't quote me.

There is an alternative rendering/reading of "My incense is of resinous woods & gums; and there is no blood therein: because of my hair the trees of Eternity

1) the trees of Eternity come about as a result of my hair or
2) there is no blood as a result of my hair which consists of the trees of Eternity

There is also a possibility that the Eternal proliferation of "trees" could refer to alternate timelines & alternative histories etc, within the space-time continuum (Nuit's hairnet of indra as it were)

Z Joy


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dom
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23/08/2018 6:53 pm  

There is also a possibility that the Eternal proliferation of “trees” could refer to alternate timelines & alternative histories etc, within the space-time continuum (Nuit’s hairnet of indra as it were)

...do you know of any other relevant references to flowers and fauna found anywhere else in AL?


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Jamie J Barter
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27/08/2018 3:10 pm  

…do you know of any other relevant references to flowers and fauna found anywhere else in AL?

"... and her soft feet not hurting the little flowers..." (I:26)

David/ Dom could you now please adequately explain (i.e. without the need for further enquiry) why you think that "the physical Earth" is being referenced here in this verse in particular --- as was asked in the earlier posts --- as opposed to & excluding any other planet in the Universe?

N Joy


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dom
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27/08/2018 10:47 pm  

David/ Dom could you now please adequately explain (i.e. without the need for further enquiry) why you think that “the physical Earth” is being referenced here in this verse in particular — as was asked in the earlier posts — as opposed to & excluding any other planet in the Universe?

Sorry Jamie I must've got side tracked. Is our Earth being referenced to in AL or was it for Klingons also? Well yeah the races of the Earth are specifically discussed; Jews, Mongols, Mohammedans. Can that specific passage about "not hurting the little flowers" refer to anywhere in the cosmos where there is fauna? Yeah I guess.


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Jamie J Barter
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28/08/2018 10:14 am  

Yes --- yes... All very well, but not strictly relevant. Now concentrate please, david/dom: this is just you skating around the elephant on the thin ice... What I was asking, and what I'm trying to ask you, is why --- in this case (I:59), you stated in the OP (Paragraph 3) that

Whilst we’re on the subject it looks like the physical earth is being referenced here and not some all encompassing “world” as in ‘universe’. If these trees are hair then they must protrude from the skin of The Queen of Space which must therefore be the layers of the Earth?

My specific point of enquiry was/is that in bold below:

y your closing reference to the “heavenly body (the Earth)” and by your use of “skin” (where really you’re presumably referring to her “scalp”) if you’re actually adopting a literal reading here, consider how many planets there must be in the universe (probably far more than stars) and then why should Earth, out of all of those, be regarded as having been singled out to be the scalp of Nuit in particular? Is the implication that the planet is unique (or alone) in the universe?

The reason I'm asking is that there doesn't seem to be anything in this particular verse (I:59) to suggest this at all - that Nuit's scalp would be earth-bound, rather than wherever planet it is the Klingons come from. Why/ how would her hair be limited to growing out of one planet (Earth)?

(Perhaps you can also see why now I was imploring for an adequate explanation previously - i.e., one not entailing the need for further enquiry),
N Joy


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dom
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28/08/2018 12:46 pm  

The implication was that the layers of any planets that support(ed) fauna are 'scalps' of Nuit yes. However you seem to be scalp-centric. There is body hair also.

By the way Jamie thanks for turning the thread into a Pythonesque sketch lol


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wellreadwellbred
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29/08/2018 10:18 pm  

dom: "1:59. My incense is of resinous woods & gums; and there is no blood therein: because of my hair the trees of Eternity.

“Trees of eternity” or “trees” of eternity i.e. the implication is that all trees are inherently of eternity (Her hair) or that what is being referred to is just a specific minority of trees “of resinous woods & gums” and it is only they that are of eternity? ..."

"... the clouds, which whirl as a development of her hair: “my hair the trees of Eternity”. (AL. I, 59)." (Source: Aleister Crowley explaining XVII. THE STAR in his Liber 78, The Book of Thoth - - - https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/crowley/libro_thoth05.htm)


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dom
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30/08/2018 12:40 am  

the clouds, which whirl as a development of her hair:

Thanks but that seems to take everything off on a tangent.


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Jamie J Barter
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30/08/2018 7:56 pm  

@dom :

By the way Jamie thanks for turning the thread into a Pythonesque sketch lol
Strange as it might seem, my primary purpose in engaging with this thread was not Pythonesque ribaldry at all - it was intended pretty much as a straight enquiry! But since you appear to have shifted the grounds from the physical Earth being some sort of a unique planet in the cosmos to that of any planet capable of supporting the fauna required - including the home of those righteous Klingons - I have rather lost interest with it, nor do I believe it to make much sense put like that or be substantiated anywhere else.

However you seem to be scalp-centric. There is body hair also.
Scalp-centric --- who, moi? Where else do you think masses of her hair are flaming well gonna come from then --- or are you making a case out for the trees depending from either Nuit's underarm hair or her pubes?

Curiously yours
N Joy


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dom
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31/08/2018 10:16 pm  

But since you appear to have shifted the grounds from the physical Earth being some sort of a unique planet in the cosmos to that of any planet capable of supporting the fauna required – including the home of those righteous Klingons – I have rather lost interest with it, nor do I believe it to make much sense put like that or be substantiated anywhere else.

That's the beauty of a goddess isn't it? She can be everywhere at once on all planets.


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wellreadwellbred
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01/09/2018 12:03 am  

Jamie J Barter: "... There is an alternative rendering/reading of “My incense is of resinous woods & gums; and there is no blood therein: because of my hair the trees of Eternity

1) the trees of Eternity come about as a result of my hair or
2) there is no blood as a result of my hair which consists of the trees of Eternity ..."

Jamie J Barter have written the following in the thread titled "Sex magick and Thelema are two different things.":

"does the blood/ elixir aspects of III:24 only apply to the ingredients of the cakes also mentioned, or if not then what else could they all refer to?" (Source: https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/sex-magick-and-thelema-are-two-different-things/page/4/#post-109033)

There is no blood mentioned in the two first chapters of The Book of the Law, except for that the incense mentioned in the first chapter (I:61:) "... if [...] thou presently burnest mine incense before me, invoking me with a pure heart, ...", is decribed as containing no blood (1:59:) "... there is no blood therein: ...". In the last Chapter of the said book blood is mentioned repeatedly.

(Questions to all:) Why is the "god-forms" "expressing themselves" in The Book of the Law's two first chapter, Nuit and Hadit, not associating themselves with blood?

And why is on the contrary the "god-form" "expressing itself" in the third and last chapter of this book, very much associating itself with blood?


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dom
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01/09/2018 1:40 pm  

Blood rears it's head in chapter 3. The obvious answer is that bloodshed has bene traditionally associated with violence, aggression and all things appertaining to war. However Hadit is pretty aggressive and war-like and no blood is mentioned in chapter 2 so that nullifies that answer..... or does it?

I don't know...because that's the way it was written I guess. Maybe it has something to do with the evolution of ...things(mineral)..... from vegetative sap to the more animalistic associations with all things haematological.


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Jamie J Barter
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01/09/2018 7:01 pm  

So, just to clarify: we are now back to referring to "blood" in its literal, "haematological" sense, then --- and no longer to the meaning of it as some sort of an ejaculatory elixir instead?

"No spill blood!"
N Joy


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wellreadwellbred
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01/09/2018 9:29 pm  

dom: "I don’t know…because that’s the way it was written I guess. Maybe it has something to do with the evolution of …things(mineral)….. from vegetative sap to the more animalistic associations with all things haematological."

The “god-form” “expressing itself” in the third and last chapter of Crowley's Class A text The Book of the Law (1904), is very much associating itself with blood.

The same “god-form” is described as associating itself with something animalistic within verse 5 of chapter V (= 5) in Crowley's Class A text Liber 65, Liber Cordis Cincti Serpente (The Book of the Heart Girt with a Serpent (An account of the relations of the aspirant and his Holy Guardian Angel.)) (1907):

"5. Now is the Pillar established in the Void; now is Asi fulfilled of Asar; now is Hoor let down into the Animal Soul of Things like a fiery star that falleth upon the darkness of the earth."

Poison is repeatedly mentioned in the same book, fore example in chapter IV (= 4):

"24. Arise, O serpent Apep, Thou art Adonai the beloved one! Thou art my darling and my lord, and Thy poison is sweeter than the kisses of Isis the mother of the Gods!

25. For Thou art He! Yea, Thou shalt swallow up Asi and Asar, and the children of Ptah. Thou shalt pour forth a flood of poison to destroy the works of the Magician. Only the Destroyer shall devour Thee; Thou shalt blacken his throat, wherein his spirit abideth. Ah, serpent Apep, but I love Thee!"

And for example in chapter V (= 5):

"53. I sailed over the sky of Nu in the car called Millions-of-Years, and I saw not any creature upon Seb that was equal to me. The venom of my fang is the inheritance of my father, and of my father’s father; and how shall I give it unto thee? Live thou and thy children as I and my fathers have lived, even unto an hundred millions of generations, and it may be that the mercy of the Mighty Ones may bestow upon thy children a drop of the poison of eld."

Crowley's had deep familiarity with the Christian Bible, and used figures and terms from the Apocalypse of John (the last book of the New Testament part of the Christian Bible), within the most holy book of his Thelema, The Book of the Law. And akin to how a fiery star falling upon the earth, is mentioned in connection with poison in Crowley's Class A text Liber 65, Liber Cordis Cincti Serpente (The Book of the Heart Girt with a Serpent (An account of the relations of the aspirant and his Holy Guardian Angel.)), this is also mentioned within chapter 8 verse 10 and 11 of the Apocalypse of John:

"10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter." (Source: Revelation 8:10-11 - - - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+8%3A10-11&version=KJV)

Jim Eshelman, the administrator of http://www.heruraha.net/ (Temple of Thelema A Mystery School of the New Aeon), does on that site go into detail about blood mentioned within Crowley's The Book of the Law:

"... Notice that the blood is to be “rich” and “fresh.” The vitality is strongest at the time of shedding. [...] What kind of blood to use? They are given in the order of quality. [...] The blood is the life, Mr. Renfield." (Source: 19 January (Heru-Ra-Ha) Liber CCXX, 3:23-24 - - - http://www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=8954&start=0)

Jamie J Barter: "So, just to clarify: we are now back to referring to “blood” in its literal, “haematological” sense, then — and no longer to the meaning of it as some sort of an ejaculatory elixir instead?"

"The colons and semicolons segregate the “blood types” here. Therefore, the second type is, “the fresh blood of a child, or dropping from the host of heaven.” The latter part of the phrase links it unmistakably to manna, the sole food of the Isrælites in their 40-year sojourn under Moses’ leadership. Given obligations I have taken, I can do nothing more (since others will read this) than say that it takes two to make a child. (I can at least say that, no, this is not baby's blood!)" (Source: 19 January (Heru-Ra-Ha) Liber CCXX, 3:23-24 - - - http://www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=8954&start=0)


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wellreadwellbred
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02/09/2018 6:57 am  

wellreadwellbred: "(Questions to all:) Why is the “god-forms” “expressing themselves” in The Book of the Law‘s two first chapter, Nuit and Hadit, not associating themselves with blood?

And why is on the contrary the “god-form” “expressing itself” in the third and last chapter of this book, very much associating itself with blood?"

dom: "I don’t know…because that’s the way it was written I guess. Maybe it has something to do with the evolution of …things(mineral)….. from vegetative sap to the more animalistic associations with all things haematological."

The “god-form” "Hoor" is - as already mentioned - within Crowley’s Class A text Liber 65 (An account of the relations of the aspirant and his Holy Guardian Angel.) chaper 5 verse 5, described as "... let down into the Animal Soul of Things like a fiery star that falleth upon the darkness of the earth [akin to the falling star associated with the only mention of wormwood in the New Testament part of the Christian Bible, in the Apocalypse of John, chapter 8, verse 10 and 11].”

"the Star called Wormwood" is mentioned directly in Crowley's Class B text The Heart of the Master ("... a visionary text written at Sidi Bou Said, Tunisia, the site of ancient Carthage. It heralds the arising of the Beast 666 as the Prophet of a New Aeon governed by Horus, the God of Force and Fire. The work delineates the spiritual forerunners of the New Aeon who were sent out at historical intervals to guide humanity's spiritual evolution." (Source: https://www.amazon.ca/Heart-Master-Aleister-Crowley/dp/1561840270)):

"The captain cries: “Behold, the Star in the West!” [...] Few were they who had heard the voice of the young captain: for the sleep of all but the youngest and strongest was the sleep of death. Even of these the fate was ill indeed; for their minds had been distraught by the bitterness of their hearts. So, when they noticed the Voice, they mocked. I heard:

“A Star in the West. What folly!”

or:

“That is no voice of any leader of ours.”

or:

“Star in the West? Beware: that is the Star called Wormwood.”

Then, presently, from the blind land behind the mountain, comes one heavy groan, then the sound of a fall, made vile by a titter of malignant tinkling laughter.

There follow ghoulish wailings.

The mystery, the evil darkness of these incoherent cries, sets my teeth on edge with horror. And yet I cannot give up the hope which thrilled me at the Voice. But so keen, so desolate, so deadly is the pain of my spirit that blank darkness overwhelms me altogether."

"the wormwood star" is mentioned in a poem called ‘Thirst’ in Crowley's book Diary of a Drug Fiend:

"... Morphia is but one
Spark of its secular fire.
She is the single sun –
Type of all desire!
All that you would, you are –
And that is the crown of your craving.
You are the slaves of the wormwood star.
Analysed, reason is raving.
Feeling, examined, is pain.
What heaven were to hope for a doubt of it!
Life is anguish, insane;
And death is – not a way out of it!" (Source: Thelema and Suicide - - - https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/thelema-and-suicide/#post-19443)

The same star is mentioned in J. Daniel Gunther’s book Initiation In The Æon of the Child – The Inward Journey, published 2009:

"On page 171 in the same book Gunther writes this: “The “fiery star that falleth upon the darkness of the earth” (LVX, V:5), and the star which is called Wormwood in the Apocalypse [Revelation 8: 10-11 in the Bible] are identical, the former fulfilling the inevitable need to restore balance within the psyche.”

And on page 172 in the same book, Gunther states that the Christian Bible in Luke chapter 10, verse 18: “I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.”, referres to “the same falling star described in our Holy Book, Liber LXV, V:5 [chapter 5, verse 5]”: “Now is the Pillar established in the Void; now is Asi fulfilled of Asar; now is Hoor let down into the Animal Soul of Things like a fiery star that falleth upon the darkness of the earth.”" (Source: The – Misguided? – Idea of the Thelemic Messiah - - - https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/the-misguided-idea-of-the-thelemic-messiah/#post-86520)


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Jamie J Barter
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02/09/2018 6:54 pm  

So, just to clarify:

I'll take it that the answer was no, then.

N Joy


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wellreadwellbred
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03/09/2018 12:31 pm  

Jamie J Barter: "So, just to clarify: we are now back to referring to “blood” in its literal, “haematological” sense, then — and no longer to the meaning of it as some sort of an ejaculatory elixir instead?

“No spill blood!”
N Joy" (Source: https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/trees-of-eternity-or-trees-of-eternity/page/2/#post-109241)

Jamie J Barter: "... I’ll take it that the answer was no, then."

The answer is both yes and no.

No; “The colons and semicolons segregate the “blood types” here. Therefore, the second type is, “the fresh blood of a child, or dropping from the host of heaven.” The latter part of the phrase links it unmistakably to manna, the sole food of the Isrælites in their 40-year sojourn under Moses’ leadership. Given obligations I have taken, I can do nothing more (since others will read this) than say that it takes two to make a child. (I can at least say that, no, this is not baby’s blood!)” (Source: 19 January (Heru-Ra-Ha) Liber CCXX, 3:23-24 – – – http://www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=8954&start=0 )"

Yes; "The first, of course, is menstrual blood. Why is it the best? A partial answer is that there are certain tantric teachings of its virtue, and these seem supportable in at least some instances. But also, this blood is given freely and without loss of existing life. [...] The third type is the blood of enemies. This is interesting! By surface implication it means blood spilled in violent conflict with an enemy. Whether or not it is advised, this is tremendously powerful by tradition (and, a dim and distant memory insists, it is so in practice). Only the former two exceed its virtue. (I’m aware of a quite different level of meaning here, which I have never taken the time to write up properly. It answers the question: What if this blood, like the two before and the first one after, is also taken without injury or loss of life.)

Next is the blood of the priest or worshippers, blood given freely.

Finally, as a last resort, any blood will do.

The blood is the life, Mr. Renfield." (Source: 19 January (Heru-Ra-Ha) Liber CCXX, 3:23-24 – – – http://www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=8954&start=0 )"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_N-H_5Pvu8
"The blood is the life, Mr. Renfield."


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dom
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03/09/2018 6:30 pm  

Crowley’s had deep familiarity with the Christian Bible, and used figures and terms from the Apocalypse of John (the last book of the New Testament part of the Christian Bible), within the most holy book of his Thelema

Hold up, you're saying that AC consciously took time to write AL and didn't scribble down what something was dictating to him for an hour over three days?


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Jamie J Barter
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03/09/2018 9:05 pm  

No need for a hold up! Stand by for a lengthy reply containing at least one (very) loosely connected quote from some old post on some old forum somewhere, but, in a word: yes. That is exactly what wrwb is saying, and has been saying or intimating for some time past (as surely you would have been able to detect if you had been reading closely) --- that AL is effectively Liber Bogus. Whatcha gonna do about it next --- string him up & stick him in the stocks (metaphorically)?

Yours most concernedly,
N Joy


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wellreadwellbred
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03/09/2018 11:14 pm  

dom: "Hold up, you’re saying that AC consciously took time to write AL and didn’t scribble down what something was dictating to him for an hour over three days?"

If the the said book was dictated as a reformation of the formulation of the divine law represented by the Christian Bible, why should this dictation not mention figures and terms from the said Bible, and use them in new and reformed ways?


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Jamie J Barter
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03/09/2018 11:40 pm  

A very nice parry move from wrwrb, there! And all carried out without a single quotation, too...

So it's over to dom/david, now: Do you feel even the faintest glimmer of an impending Gotcha! bearing down upon youse?

Setting off for some popcorn,
N joy


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wellreadwellbred
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05/09/2018 4:38 pm  

By the way, James Wasserman of the (c)OTO states directly that the Thelema associated with AC is a reformation of the law of God represented by the Christian Bible, from 37 til 40 minutes within this recording, titled The Temple of Solomon and Spiritual Ecstasy, of "A talk on The Temple of Solomon: From Ancient Israel to Secret Societies given in December 2011 at Changing Times Books in West Palm Beach, Florida. Seamlessly interweaves the ancient Biblical writings with the modern doctrine of the Law of Thelema.":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofxpBeaxANE

And J. Daniel Gunther of the same OTO, does on page 29, 30 and 193 in his book Initiation in the Aeon of the Child: The Inward Journey (2009), describe how Jesus and prophets within the Christian Bible, supposedly foretold the Thelema and The Book of the Law associated with AC.


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dom
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05/09/2018 10:41 pm  

By the way, James Wasserman of the (c)OTO states directly that the Thelema associated with AC is a reformation of the law of God represented by the Christian Bible, from 37 til 40 minutes within this recording, titled The Temple of Solomon and Spiritual Ecstasy, of “A talk on The Temple of Solomon: From Ancient Israel to Secret Societies given in December 2011 at Changing Times Books in West Palm Beach, Florida. Seamlessly interweaves the ancient Biblical writings with the modern doctrine of the Law of Thelema.”

Is that guy infallible or something?


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Michael Staley
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06/09/2018 1:51 am  

@dom

Is that guy infallible or something?

Well, seein' as he's a Trumpette and a stalwart of the National Rifle Association, he's probably the closest to infallible that you're likely to get in this vale of tears.

Just sayin'


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ignant666
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06/09/2018 2:01 am  

I believe it may be World Teacher/Messiah Gunther who may be infallible within (c)OTO circles, or at least accepted by some as one who "speaks as the orthodox voice of ‘Thelema'”, not the rootin', tootin', gun-totin', Trump-votin' Mr Wasserman. I don't believe there is any visible daylight between their views however.

I think wrwb may be mistaken in the idea that many folks here would consider either of these people to be authoritative about anything at all.


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dom
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08/09/2018 10:37 am  

@wrwb

Crowley’s had deep familiarity with the Christian Bible, and used figures and terms from the Apocalypse of John (the last book of the New Testament part of the Christian Bible), within the most holy book of his Thelema, The Book of the Law.

What figures and which terms exactly?

By the way, James Wasserman of the (c)OTO states directly that the Thelema associated with AC is a reformation of the law of God represented by the Christian Bible, from 37 til 40 minutes within this recording, titled The Temple of Solomon and Spiritual Ecstasy, of “A talk on The Temple of Solomon: From Ancient Israel to Secret Societies given in December 2011 at Changing Times Books in West Palm Beach, Florida. Seamlessly interweaves the ancient Biblical writings with the modern doctrine of the Law of Thelema.”</em

>

I 'm sure that no one would disagree that there is some sort of continuity a la AL from old Hebraic texts and traditions (of former aeons) simply because the Queen of Space states it ; 1:57 . All these old letters of my Book are aright; but [Tzaddi] is not the Star.

The old letters of her book.

Furthermore consider this; "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Revelation 22:11.

and this;

41 <em>And every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth shall be an abomination; it shall not be eaten.

Leviticus 11:41 King James Version (KJV)


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Michael Staley
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08/09/2018 7:21 pm  

@wellreadwellbred

By the way, James Wasserman of the (c)OTO states directly that the Thelema associated with AC is a reformation of the law of God represented by the Christian Bible

I think that this is a tad overstated, to say the least. The presence of a few verses in The Book of the Law which carry a flavour of the Old Testament hardly makes Thelema "a reformation of the law of God represented by the Christian Bible". For instance, I don't recollect the Bible having much to say about the eyes of Jesus being pecked out as he hangs from the cross, or Mary being torn on wheels.

In my opinion it's a ridiculous contention, whether by Wasserman or whoever. Puh-leaze.


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dom
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09/09/2018 3:00 am  

@Michael Staley

I think that this is a tad overstated, to say the least. The presence of a few verses in The Book of the Law which carry a flavour of the Old Testament hardly makes Thelema “a reformation of the law of God represented by the Christian Bible”. For instance, I don’t recollect the Bible having much to say about the eyes of Jesus being pecked out as he hangs from the cross, or Mary being torn on wheels.

No, the Bible (written in and for the Old Aeon) wouldn't say anything about the eyes of Jesus being pecked out (written in and for the new aeon) because it was written in and for the old aeon.

What about 1:57 AL?


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Michael Staley
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09/09/2018 8:30 am  

@dom

No, the Bible (written in and for the Old Aeon) wouldn’t say anything about the eyes of Jesus being pecked out (written in and for the new aeon) because it was written in and for the old aeon.

I realised that, dom. I instanced those two passages as examples of the tenor of some passages in The Book of the Law.

What about 1:57 AL?

What about it? It's a relatively long passage, split into two parts. To what are you referring?


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dom
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09/09/2018 8:54 am  

@Michael Staley

1:57 All these old letters of my Book are aright; but [Tzaddi] is not the Star.

…..implies continuity from an old way to the NU via a knowledge of the old way.... as does the statement in AL 2:5.

Are we talking about AL to the Bible as analogous to a snake shedding it's skin as I don't fully know what point you're arguing Michael?

Maybe wbwr has read Motta's For this is it written: I baptize you with water; but One shall come after me, greater than I, and he shall baptize you with Fire (John the Baptist in the Gospels).


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wellreadwellbred
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09/09/2018 9:42 am  

dom: “What figures and which terms exactly?”

Figures and terms like for example a "company of heaven" and “the abomination of desolation”, and figures like a “scarlet woman” and a “beast”, used in the Christian Bible:

1 Kgs 22:19. : "And Micaiah said, "Hear therefore the word of the LORD. I saw the LORD sit on his seat and all his company of heaven standing about him, on his righthand and on his left."

2 Chron 18:18. : "And Micaiah answered, "Therefore hear ye the word of the LORD. I saw the LORD sit upon his seat, and all the company of heaven standing on his righthand and on his left."

Matthew 24: 15. : “… when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),” 21. “... then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. [...] 24. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.”

Revelation chapter 17: “1. And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2. With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth. 6. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.”

A person named Jesus is mentioned in Crowley’s The Book of the Law (Chapter III: 51. “With my Hawk's head I peck at the eyes of Jesus as he hangs upon the cross.”).

A Mary “inviolate” is mentioned in Crowley’s The Book of the Law (Chapter III, verse 55. “Let Mary inviolate be torn upon wheels: for her sake let all chaste women be utterly despised among you!”

Relevant quotes from the the Christian Bible:

Matthew Chapter 1, verse 18 “This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.” (Source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+1%3A18-25&version=NIV)

Luke Chapter 1, verse 34 and 35: “34. “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” 35. The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[a] the Son of God.””

[Page 29 >-->] “The appearance of the New Aeon was foretold by the seers and prophets of the patriarchal Aeon. Their written accounts, although corrupt and untrustworthy for any historical analy-[<---< Page 29]

[Page 30 >--->:]sis, still give evidence of the terror with which they viewed the event.20 [Footnote 21: 20 The Book of "Daniel" and The Revelation of "St. John" are the clearest examples.]

The prophecies of Daniel speak of a day when one would come who would "cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease," and set up "the abomination that maketh desolate."21 [Footnote 21: Cf. Daniel 9:27, 11:31 and 12:11.] Jesus made reference to this prophecy in the Olivet Discourse as a confirming sign of the "beginning of sorrows" and the "end of the world."22 [Footnote 22: Cf. Matthew 24:15 The "Olivet Discourse," so-called because it took place upon the Mount of Olives, encompasses the entirety of Matthew chap- ter 24. Further accounts are given in Mark chapter 13 and Luke chapter 21, 7- 38. Fundamental Christians connect the text of the Olivet Discourse with the Book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation as prophecies of the second coming of Christ at the "end time."]

From the Jewish perspective, the Abomination of Desolation referred to a prophecy of the desecration of the Temple in Jerusalem. Some have taken this to refer to Antiochus Epiphanes 23 [Footnote 23: 23 Circa 215-164 BeE.] who desecrated the Temple by sacrificing unclean animals upon the Altar of Burnt Offerings and daring to enter the most sacrosanct area of the Temple, the Holy of Holies.24 [Footnote 24: 24. Further accounts are given in Mark chapter 13 and Luke chapter 21, 7- 38. Fundamental Christians connect the text of the Olivet Discourse with the Book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation as prophecies of the second coming of Christ at the "end time."] The biblical prophets of the "old time" proclaimed that they beheld the "end of days," and in this they were partially correct. They had the vision of the end of their own time when the sacrifice would indeed be removed from the Temple, when sacrifice would be declared abrogate and the oblation cease [<---< Page 30].”

[Page 30 >--->:]“GLOSSARY [...] Abomination of Desolation A biblical prophecy in the Book of Dan- iel, foretelling the desecration of the Jewish Temple by one who would cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease. Jesus referred to this prophecy in his Olivet discourse as a sign of the end of the world. It is now interpreted to mean the end of the era of the Dying God and the desolation of his Temples.“ (Source: J. Daniel Gunther‘s book Initiation in the Aeon of the Child: The Inward Journey, first edition 2009, page 29, 30 and 193).

“The phrase “the queen of heaven” appears in the Bible twice, both times in the book of Jeremiah. The first incident is in connection with the things the Israelites were doing that provoked the Lord to anger. Entire families were involved in idolatry. The children gathered wood, and the men used it to build altars to worship false gods. The women were engaged in kneading dough and baking cakes of bread for the “Queen of Heaven” (Jeremiah 7:18). […] The second reference to the queen of heaven is found in Jeremiah 44:17-25, where Jeremiah is giving the people the word of the Lord which God has spoken to him. He reminds the people that their disobedience and idolatry has caused the Lord to be very angry with them and to punish them with calamity. Jeremiah warns them that greater punishments await them if they do not repent. They reply that they have no intentions of giving up their worship of idols, promising to continue pouring out drink offerings to the queen of heaven,...” (Source: Who is the Queen of Heaven? - - - https://www.gotquestions.org/Queen-of-Heaven.html)

The term “company of heaven” is used in the Christian Bible in 1 Kgs 22:19, and in 2 Chron 18:18. (Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/search?q=company+of+heaven&translation=all.)

The term “host of heaven” is used in the Christian Bible in 1 Kings 22:19-22, 2 Chronicles 18:18-21, 2 Kings 23:4-5, 2 Kings 17:16, 2 Kings 21:3-5, 2 Chronicles 33:3-5, Daniel 8:10, and in Isaiah 34:4. (Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Host-Of-Heaven.)

Relevant quotes from The Book of the Law:

Chapter I, “2. The unveiling of the company of heaven.”

Chapter III, “24. The best blood is of the moon, monthly: then the fresh blood of a child, or dropping from the host of heaven: then of enemies; then of the priest or of the worshippers: last of some beast, no matter what.”

Chapter I, “33. Then the priest fell into a deep trance or swoon, & said unto the Queen of Heaven; Write unto us the ordeals; write unto us the rituals; write unto us the law!”

Chapter I, “49. Abrogate are all rituals, all ordeals, all words and signs. Ra-Hoor-Khuit hath taken his seat in the East at the Equinox of the Gods; and let Asar be with Isa, who also are one. But they are not of me. Let Asar be the adorant, Isa the sufferer; Hoor in his secret name and splendour is the Lord initiating.”

Chapter II, “5. Behold! the rituals of the old time are black. Let the evil ones be cast away; let the good ones be purged by the prophet! Then shall this Knowledge go aright.”

Chapter III, “19. That stele they shall call the Abomination of Desolation; count well its name, & it shall be to you as 718.”


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wellreadwellbred
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09/09/2018 9:52 am  

dom: Maybe wbwr has read Motta’s For this is it written: I baptize you with water; but One shall come after me, greater than I, and he shall baptize you with Fire (John the Baptist in the Gospels).

No.


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wellreadwellbred
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09/09/2018 10:07 am  

Michael Staley: "I think that this is a tad overstated, to say the least. The presence of a few verses in The Book of the Law which carry a flavour of the Old Testament hardly makes Thelema “a reformation of the law of God represented by the Christian Bible”."

Crowley's The Book of the Law carry more than a flavour of the Old Testament as it contains numerous verses - as already described by me in this thread - containing terms and figures used within both the Old Testament part and the New Testament part of the Christian Bible.

Michael Staley: "For instance, I don’t recollect the Bible having much to say about the eyes of Jesus being pecked out as he hangs from the cross, or Mary being torn on wheels."

If Crowley's The Book of the Law was dictated and/or written as a reformation of the formulation of the divine law represented by the Christian Bible, why should it not contain figures and terms from the said Bible, and use them in new and reformed ways?


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dom
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09/09/2018 10:59 am  

@wrwb

did you see my “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.” Revelation 22:11?

If Crowley’s The Book of the Law was dictated and/or written as a reformation of the formulation of the divine law represented by the Christian Bible, why should it not contain figures and terms from the said Bible, and use them in new and reformed ways?

AC was raised and cajoled by Bible bashers to become like them. Bible bashers have a genius for quoting entire passages from the Bible by memory. Basically, AC was a Bible basher therefore. Did you not consider that the alien transmission of the raw information that became AL was filtered through his Bible bashing neurons and onto the written page?

I am assuming that you are educated enough to know about the theory that before heavier than air flight a person having an intense ESP-type of experience would see an angel but after heavier than air flight the same sort of person would see a UFO? In other words the raw information of their intense ESP trips had to be filtered by the logical semantic left brain in order to bring some sort of semblance of rationale and order to it. For AC then, what better way to do that than use the "religious" poetic metaphors and concepts instilled within him in his boyhood when trying to interpret what was happening?


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Michael Staley
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09/09/2018 12:11 pm  

@wellreadwellbred

If Crowley’s The Book of the Law was dictated and/or written as a reformation of the formulation of the divine law represented by the Christian Bible, why should it not contain figures and terms from the said Bible, and use them in new and reformed ways?

The operative word here is "If". I don't accept that The Book of the Law is a reformation or reformulation of "the divine law represented by the Christian Bible", and I have seen nothing in your posts, including the quote from Wasserman, to make me reconsider my opinion. For instance, the tenor of the first chapter has more in common with Advaita Vedanta than it does "the divine law represented by the Christian Bible". God alone knows why you consider that Wasserman's view on this matter is the bees knees.


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Michael Staley
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09/09/2018 12:17 pm  

@dom

1:57 All these old letters of my Book are aright; but [Tzaddi] is not the Star.

I've always considered the "Book" mentioned to be the Tarot, and "the Star" being a reference to the trump of the same name. I don't think "my Book" is a reference to the Bible.


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wellreadwellbred
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09/09/2018 1:10 pm  

[Text in bold was made bold by me.]

dom: "Did you not consider that the alien transmission of the raw information that became AL was filtered through his Bible bashing neurons and onto the written page?"

For Crowley his book The Vision and the voice was "only second in importance", to the most important book of his Thelema, The Book of the Law. In his New Comment to verse 7 in the first chapter in the latter book, Crowley is using terms like 'Holy Guardian Angel' or 'Silent Self of a man' as synonymous with the Christian Biblical term ‘Holy Ghost'.

According to the Christian Bible, blaspheming against the Holy Spirit is the only unpardonable sin:

Matthew 12:31: "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."

Matthew 12:32: "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come."

Mark 3.28-29: "28. Truly I tell you, the sons of men will be forgiven all sins and blasphemies, as many as they utter. 29. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of eternal sin.”

Luke 12:10: "And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."

'... the Holy Ghost' is within the 10th Aethyr of Crowley's book "The Vision and the voice", described as something the demon Choronzon can not prevail against:

"I have prevailed against the Kingdom of the Father, and befouled his beard; and I have prevailed against the Kingdom of the Son, and torn off his Phallus; but against the Kingdom of the Holy Ghost shall I strive and not prevail. The three slain doves are my threefold blasphemy against him; but their blood shall make fertile the sand, and I writhe in blackness and horror of hate, and prevail not."

Crowley's understanding of the the Christian Biblical term ‘Holy Ghost' within his Thelema - as described within this posting - and how this term is used by him within his second in importance holy book The Vision and the voice, is in support of that the most holy book of his Thelema, The Book of the Law, was written as a reformation of the formulation of the divine law represented by the Christian Bible.


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arthuremerson
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09/09/2018 7:42 pm  

Forgive the following its error and its brevity, for it was both conceived and born in haste.

@wellreadwellbred

Your argument in favor of Crowley's work "keeping a living [Christian] tradition alive and reforming it", as Wasserman puts it, is even worse than Wasserman's own. Is it really your contention that because Crowley's holy books contain biblical symbols and allusions that they are thereby de facto intended to be reformulations of the divine law as represented in the Christian bible? If so, your argument is an unmitigated disaster. And not merely because one could make the same claim for Hinduism or Egyptian religion, or any of the various traditions with which Crowley came to be acquainted in his life.

Let's start by considering your most recent post, which, despite your suggestion that it does, says nothing about "Crowley's understanding of the the (sic) Christian Biblical term 'Holy Ghost'. Moreover, you completely misunderstand Crowley on this point.

Let's consider some evidence for Crowley's understanding of this imagery, which can be found in his New Commentary to Liber AL I,7- a reference you yourself draw our attention to. He says,

"But the “Small Person” of Hindu mysticism, the Dwarf insane yet crafty of many legends in many lands, is also this same “Holy Ghost”, or Silent Self of a man, or his Holy Guardian Angel."

Notice that the bible is only implied terminologically here and not mentioned explicity; rather a number of other religious traditions are. It couldn't be more clear that the bible is not the ground of Crowley's understanding of the term 'Holy Ghost'; rather, as is I suspect true of Crowley's understanding of religious imagery in toto , derived from the battery of traditions that Crowley was familiar with (and by implication one's that he wasn't), and grounded in some trans-traditional, transcendent source- whatever we may mean by such a statement. Consider, if you will, 777, its aim and contents.

It's patently erroneous to assume that Crowley's use of any religious symbol that it is to be understood with respect only to the tradition in which it originated. Have you read The Book of Thoth? There is clearly a notion in Crowley (not altogether different from a Jungian notion, I suspect) that there is a trans-traditional identity to be found between all religious imagery. This is precisely why we get identities like, Holy Ghost = "Small Person" of Hinduism = Crafty Dwarf. One way of understanding this is that there is some one source from which all religious imagery is derived (perhaps 'Blavatskian' would be a better term here than 'Jungian'). There may be other ways of making sense of this as well. It is, however, trivial to rule out the very mistaken notion that one can look to a particular tradition in order to make sense of Crowley's understanding of any one religious symbol. This a presumption your argument makes, and precisely why it is untenable.

The following is probably superfluous critique. Hopefully it is instructive.

This is a 'complex question': “If the the said book was dictated as a reformation of the formulation of the divine law represented by the Christian Bible, why should this dictation not mention figures and terms from the said Bible, and use them in new and reformed ways?”

Also, let's see what happens to your argument when we use a substitution:
"Shakespeare's Hamlet carry more than a flavour of the Old Testament as it contains numerous verses containing terms and figures used within both the Old Testament part and the New Testament part of the Christian Bible.” Therefore, Shakespeare's Hamlet "was written as a reformation of the formulation of the divine law represented by the Christian Bible".


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wellreadwellbred
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09/09/2018 9:29 pm  

Shakespeare did not claim to be a prophet, heralding a new era, as Crowley did.

arthuremerson: "It’s patently erroneous to assume that Crowley’s use of any religious symbol that it is to be understood with respect only to the tradition in which it originated."

Being aware of the tradition in which it originated, is relevant with respect to Crowley’s use of any religious Christian Biblical symbol, as he had deep familiarity with the Christian Bible. Especially the apocalyptical/end of the world parts of it so important to the Christian sect he was born into. (Aleister Crowley was raised among the Exclusive Brethren, a more conservative faction of a denomination known as the Plymouth Brethren (for more on this: https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/my-quotes-from-comment-to-download-timothy-moss-squaring-the-circle/page/6/#post-100234).)

J. Daniel Gunther - of the (c)OTO and of the only A.'.A.'. accepted by this OTO - does on page 193 in the Glossary part of the first edition of his book Initiation in the Aeon of the Child: The Inward Journey, contain the following with respect to the Biblical term Abomination of Desolation:

"A biblical prophecy in the Book of Daniel, foretelling the desecration of the Jewish Temple by one who would cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease. Jesus referred to this prophecy in his Olivet discourse as a sign of the end of the world. It is now interpreted to mean the end of the era of the Dying God and the desolation of his Temples."

An ancient Egyptian stele is within Crowley's The Book of the Law referred to with the words; (Chapter III, verse 19.) "That stele they shall call the Abomination of Desolation; count well its name, & it shall be to you as 718."

As a whole, the above described definition of the Biblical apocalyptical/end of the world term Abomination of Desolation, and the described use of this term in Crowley's The Book of the Law, implies that the latter book was/is foretold by the Christian Bible. The ground of Crowley’s understanding of The Book of the Law associated with him, included the said understanding of a biblical prophecy in the Book of Daniel.


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ignant666
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09/09/2018 10:16 pm  

wrwb: As has been mentioned here (and elsewhere in these forums), no regular poster here is a member of the (c)OTO, and, thus, most likely (due to the current "duplexity" doctrine within the (c)OTO), no regular poster here is a member of the post-Motta A.'. A.'. headed by World Teacher Gunther.

Thus, no one here regards Wasserman, or even Supreme Leader Breeze, or any other (c)OTO figurehead, as per se authoritative. Some here may even imagine that their pyramids may have been profaned (as the bishop said to the actress) by, eg, changing of words in certain texts to which they have purchased the copyrights.

Similarly, no one here regards the very handsome World Teacher Brother J. Daniel as authoritative.

Citing these folks here (for purposes other than ridicule) will win you no points.


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wellreadwellbred
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10/09/2018 1:46 am  

dom: "1:59. My incense is of resinous woods & gums; and there is no blood therein: because of my hair the trees of Eternity.

“Trees of eternity” or “trees” of eternity i.e. the implication is that all trees are inherently of eternity (Her hair) or that what is being referred to is just a specific minority of trees “of resinous woods & gums” and it is only they that are of eternity?
[...] If these trees are hair then they must protrude from the skin of The Queen of Space which must therefore be the layers of the Earth?

The same heavenly body (the Earth) is also said to be Her “heart” 1:53 (that pumps cardiovascular sap (not blood))?" (Source: First posting in this thread - - - https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/trees-of-eternity-or-trees-of-eternity/#post-109038)

In my reply #109220 at the top of page two in this thread I wrote:

"There is no blood mentioned in the two first chapters of The Book of the Law, except for that the incense mentioned in the first chapter (I:61:) “… if […] thou presently burnest mine incense before me, invoking me with a pure heart, …”, is decribed as containing no blood (1:59:) “… there is no blood therein: …”. In the last Chapter of the said book blood is mentioned repeatedly." (Source: https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/trees-of-eternity-or-trees-of-eternity/page/2/#post-109220)

On page 123 and 124 within J. Daniel Gunther's book Initiation in the Aeon of the Child: The Inward Journey, "... the requirement imposed by Jehovah: the bloody sacrifice as the ransom for sin.", is rejected , and 'V.V.V.V.V.' is described as delivering unto the world "the means of crossing the Abyss.", for which "The price is paid with our own blood, not by faith in the blood of another."

Page 200 in the Glossary part of this book contains the following:

"Heart of Blood A symbol of the life-blood of the aspirant which is sanctified, ultimately for sacrifice in the Cup of Babalon. Represented by the descending Red Triangle on the Robe of a Neophyte of the A.'.A.'. ..."

And page 208 in the Glossary part of the same book contains this:

"Scarlet Woman A technical name for any Master of the Temple who, under the Night of Pan in the City of the Pyramids, has sacrificed every drop of his Blood into the Cup of Babalon. The term was also used by Crowley as a Title for an Officer of the Third Order, consort of The Beast."


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ignant666
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10/09/2018 2:20 am  

As all (now) know, World Teacher Brother J. Daniel speaks (to some) as "the orthodox voice of Thelema".

Others may differ, especially on those definitions.

If your goal, wrwb, is to hold up for mockery first Wasserman, of the (c)OTO, and now Gunther, of the (c)OTO's "duplex" companion order, the post-Motta "lineage that is not a 'lineage' but the true Secret College despite what anyone says" of the A.'. A.'., you are doing well.

If you have some other goal, perhaps time to reconsider strategies of argumentation?


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Michael Staley
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10/09/2018 11:51 am  

@wellreadwellbred

Scarlet Woman A technical name for any Master of the Temple who, under the Night of Pan in the City of the Pyramids, has sacrificed every drop of his Blood into the Cup of Babalon. The term was also used by Crowley as a Title for an Officer of the Third Order, consort of The Beast.

Could you please provide an example in Crowley's work where he uses the term "Scarlet Woman" applied to a man, whether of the "Third Order" or otherwise?


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ignant666
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10/09/2018 3:45 pm  

Yes, that "also" sure is doing a lot of work there!

Needless to say, i join Michael in not recalling AC ever mentioning "Scarlet Woman" as an 8=3 epithet.

Nor do i recall him mentioning a "heart of blood".

WT Gunther's rhetoric drips with "Old Aeon-ness", and that of Christianity specifically.


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wellreadwellbred
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15/09/2018 10:36 am  

“Heart of Blood A symbol of the life-blood of the aspirant which is sanctified, ultimately for sacrifice in the Cup of Babalon. Represented by the descending Red Triangle on the Robe of a Neophyte of the A.’.A.’. …” (Source: Page 200 in the Glossary part of the first edition published 2009, of J. Daniel Gunther’s book Initiation in the Aeon of the Child: The Inward Journey.)

With respect to the word blood, the above definition of the term "Heart of Blood" appears to be based on the following from a 'A.'. A.'. Publication in Class A.' titled Liber 156:

"1. This is the secret of the Holy Graal, that is the sacred vessel of our Lady the Scarlet Woman, Babalon the Mother of Abominations, the bride of Chaos, that rideth upon our Lord the Beast.

2. Thou shalt drain out thy blood that is thy life into the golden cup of her fornication."

ignant666: "Nor do i recall him (= AC) mentioning a “heart of blood”."

I wonder if the term “heart of blood” originated with J. Daniel Gunther, or if this term originated with his teacher in an A∴A∴ order., Marcelo Ramos Motta?

On page 124 in the chapter titled Christeos Lucifitias in Gunther's already mentioned book, he states that the “heart of blood” is "an emblem" of "the Cup of Babalon". On the same page he states that "The Robe of the Neophyte of the A:.A:. is [...] adorned with a descending Red Triangle that is a Heart of Blood, ..."

An illustration in black and white on page 123 in the same chapter in the same book of a Neophyte A.'.A.'. robe, depicts the “heart of blood” as an inverted outlined triangle located on the chest of the apparently black robe.


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