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Shiva
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Posted by: @ahihchiva567

It could mean many things...and has the potential to go a few different ways.

Hmmm. Can you provide a Category? Such as sex magic, ceremonial magic, mystical liberation, QBL, the true nature of reality, the location of Crowley's ashes, or ... etc.


katrice
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Posted by: @ahihchiva567

would you think it wise to post a key central finding here, for all the world to see? 

Any mystery that can be profaned by mere expression in language is not a true mystery.  The true mysteries can only be conveyed through direct experience, which is why they're mysteries.

Posted by: @shiva

Do you mean the one about how "It's all Illusion?" That one, and its similarities, has/have already been announced, here and elsewhere, but nobody believes it (except maybe you, who is willing to laugh at it all).

Maya is the magician's tool.

Change the means to perceive, and change reality.

 

Posted by: @shiva

Since this (nothing = illusion)(0=2) concept has the capacity to destroy any and all lesser concepts, folks are hesitant to believe/accept/surrender, because they still have An Agenda.

Some of us still want to play!  😊 

 

And learning all is illusion as a concept and fully realizing it are two different things.

But accepting that all is illusion without full realization can lead one in to initiatory stagnation, because, after all, if it's all an illusion, why bother doing anything?  

 


Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

why bother doing anything?

This is the great example of India's problem at the grass-roots level. The people inherently accept that it's all illusion - so why bother? The problem is not necessarily confined to India.

Posted by: @ahihchiva567

The illusion is real..

Albert E. told us, "Reality is an illusion. But it is a persistent one." (Something like that).


katrice
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Posted by: @ahihchiva567

@katrice 

The veil of the mystery can be communicated, designed in such a way that the rational gives way to the mystery...the effect of a symbol so potent to the brain pan, that it falls away into intoxication, bliss, and the power to manipulate the environment is gained by it's acceptance. When the mind can no longer fight, when it can rationalize the irrational, it may gain a leg up on the evolutionary process. 

While the rational can certainly provide a path to the transrational, I have seen no accounts of anything that could universally automatically convey the experience simply through looking or reading, despite stories of things like basilisk images.   

 

Individual instances of this, yes, when a person's consciousness is primed and a certain image or idea triggers an initiatory experience.  I've had that happen myself.  But the same thing would not have affects most other people in the same way. 

 

Posted by: @shiva

This is the great example of India's problem at the grass-roots level. The people inherently accept that it's all illusion - so why bother? The problem is not necessarily confined to India.

I've seen a couple of potential greats fall in to this trap. Simply accepting the idea intellectually leads nowhere. 

 


Shiva
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Posted by: @ahihchiva567

"Reality" it is persistent. Yet the Will seeks to overturn it. That's cool!

Yeah. I would re-phrase it for your consideration.

So-called "reality" is not real
It is an illusion
but it's illusory "real" nature
persists
WTF?

Some deep part of everyone
that existed before entry
into the persistence
(called Will)
remembers its source
and strives to return

Problematically, one cannot return
until they have tidied their Beth house
This is the Great Work

I would say it is more of a sense of completing (the turn of) the wheel, or perhaps a return - but I have 8+ decades under my belt, so my perspective may vary.

For example, I had a phase in my younger youth wherein I foolishly thought that things (in general) could be controlled. Well, they can, to a certain extent, through a combination of Magick and hard work. But if it's the material plane that one wants to dominate and create in hiser own image, then they will need to make an appointment with the Devil.

Oh, not the Devil who is Satan and all those other names being discussed on nearby threads. No, not this. Everyone has this urge to return and this urge to dig in and build an empire (even if $ or mental). The Anima-Angel is available for guide duty home. The Id is available for work in the trenches.

The Id is "the division of the psyche that is totally unconscious and serves as the source of instinctual impulses and demands for immediate satisfaction of primitive needs." This is the [internal] Devil who offers the pact.

Now which of these fellows wants to overturn reality? The Id does, of course. The Anima may counsel change as part of one's karma - in order to get back home

Posted by: @katrice

Simply accepting the idea intellectually leads nowhere. 

Nowhere, but not to Nothing. One simply needs to have their lights put out (in a balanced manner) while still retaining awareness. Try it - it's not easy (only takes 50 years or so), but you'll like it.

Don't take me seriously as delivering a personal recommendation. Almost everyone here has had at least a glimpse of the state.

 


katrice
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @katrice

Simply accepting the idea intellectually leads nowhere. 

Nowhere, but not to Nothing. One simply needs to have their lights put out (in a balanced manner) while still retaining awareness. Try it - it's not easy (only takes 50 years or so), but you'll like it.

Don't take me seriously as delivering a personal recommendation. Almost everyone here has had at least a glimpse of the state.

 

I believe that.

Ten years of daily sitting, looks like I still have a long way to go. 

But I knew that. 

 


Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

Ten years of daily sitting, looks like I still have a long way to go. 

Ah, but it gets easier after the first 20. Huh? How could I say such a thing? A few sources, other than myself (Ken Wilber comes to mind) cite this ~20-year factor, and I'll be darned if it doesn't also fit my own experience.

It's not just that one has trudged on and on (to On) for 20-years (more or less), but also includes the concept of internal maturation. There are certain folks who do not sit daily, but they sit sometimes but take unusual libations along the way. They get fantastic visions and great insights, but for some reason all this jazz doesn't come into play in their daily life until the allotted number of years has expired.

I do not recommend the path of unusual libation unless accompanied by regular practice in the basics (specifically banishing, asana, pranayama, dharana, rising on the planes). 

The Japanese are somewhat particular about this age factor when handing out martial arts degrees. One must wait so-long (1-yr, 3-yrs, etc) in any degree befor they can take the next exam. I just did the math in my head, with finger mudra assistance, and it seems like 20 years of continual progress (according to the minimum standards) will get one to the 5th degree (go-dan), which corresponds to Tiphareth in the Tree system.

None of this really cites any specific practical truth, except that age (maturity) is a factor in addition to regular work.

 


katrice
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Posted by: @shiva

Ah, but it gets easier after the first 20. Huh? How could I say such a thing?

 

Because you've been doing this longer than I've been alive? 😉 

 

Posted by: @shiva

A few sources, other than myself (Ken Wilber comes to mind) cite this ~20-year factor, and I'll be darned if it doesn't also fit my own experience.

Ken Wilber is great.

 

Posted by: @shiva

It's not just that one has trudged on and on (to On) for 20-years (more or less), but also includes the concept of internal maturation.

 

Physical and psychological change, both natural and induced.

 

Posted by: @shiva

I do not recommend the path of unusual libation

 

While I'm no stranger to libations, I prefer to use methods that do not require external tools whenever practical.  

 

Posted by: @shiva

regular practice in the basics (specifically banishing, asana, pranayama, dharana, rising on the planes). 

I do follow the De Cultu practices daily.

 

Posted by: @shiva

5th degree (go-dan), which corresponds to Tiphareth in the Tree system.

 

That's very interesting!  I didn't know there were parallels between the two!


ignant666
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@katrice -  I fear you may have misunderstood Shiva- your truncation and separation of two integral thoughts leads me to think this...
Posted by: @shiva

I do not recommend the path of unusual libation unless accompanied by regular practice in the basics (specifically banishing, asana, pranayama, dharana, rising on the planes). 

Note that Shiva is saying the equivalent of "Given the current low level of cultural/spiritual development in most places, it is not advisable to leave the house without trousers, a skirt, a kilt, a sarong, or other culturally-sanctioned lower-body coverings."

Or to make the sentence structure more analogous "I do not recommend the path of household-exiting unless accompanied by trousers, a skirt, a kilt, a sarong, or other culturally-sanctioned lower-body coverings.

He is not at all saying "Stay in your house; on no account go outside", as your truncated quotation

Posted by: @shiva

I do not recommend the path of unusual libation

might tend to imply. You left out the most important part of the sentience, the part after "unless".

90% (being polite here) of those who do not libate have not left the house; they are at best looking out the windows. Most are imagining what might be outside the house based on stuff they have read. Note that AC libated LAMF.

Also, what are "De Cultu practices"? To your credit, you are continually bringing new concepts/terminology, etc to the table here, but sometimes us elderly folk may need a bit of help on the latest "jive" that you young folk are "hep on".

_________________________________

As always, before taking unusual libations, or doing, or failing to do, any other act that may, or may not be, potentially illegal, immoral, fattening, or likely to lead to warts, buboes, the plague, and/or "spiritual enlightenment", please consult your attorney, physician, dentist, psychiatrist, shaman, priest, minister, imam, rabbi, A.'. A.'. superior, all known OHOs, the local law enforcement authorities, the CDC, and your homeroom teacher and hall monitor. Objects may be larger than they appear in mirror (or smaller). Not responsible for Masonic dramas enacted in any car headlight. In gods and goddesses we trust, all other pay cash. Void where effective.


ignant666
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Final note aka timebarred edit: And of course many who libate, but do not "accompany", end up as mush-minded hippies, ravers, etc., thus the "unless".

But, by all means, get out. By any means necessary, as we old Commies like to say.


Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

That's very interesting!  I didn't know there were parallels between the two!

This is covered in the Chapter called Budo in The Master Codex. Here, have a copy ...

Ooops, sorry, The LAShTAL Borg informs me that the file is too big (the new set-up is more frugal with the allotted attachment file size, which used to be 50 Mb, but is now 2, which is 2=0 for our purposes. Okay, copy & paste ...

budo
budo2

No, this won't work. Extensive copy & pesto will either take too long or will destroy gobs of valuable information and incredible pictures if chopped up. So, screw it, I upload the whole file into the Neutral Zone. Grab a copy while you can (anyone).

https://mega.nz/file/cFA02JqZ#7imzSf5x5pprki_pRwOjM73MY2KGUjBkrjpuBT_9DNI

On the 20-year note, it seems like if one puts in around two decades of serious practice (not necessarily 4 hours per day, or even continuous daily shorter times, but long stretches of daily work - without ever giving up [except for short periods to catch one's breath), a certain continuous delta wave sets up in one's brainwave frequencies - and it stays there, stable, all the time (Thank you Ken Wilber for documenting this).

That is (technically) what I meant by "It gets easier." One has a constant Zero-point, Zen, Void, Ain, 61 reference point available for refuge - all the time.

Except when it's not available. The Path or the Angel or the Process will do things to stir up one's mind, usually involving some bullshit karma that threatens one's life, or job, or mind, or whatever it takes to rattle a mind enough that the hidden refuge gets re-hidden. Eek!  I'm on my own, again!

But it comes back - after the BS Karma has been resolved to the point where the mind can relax, again. This whole business starts at Tiphareth, because it's there that the Void is implanted in the center of the causal body. It's called Adeptus Minor (within).

About 20 years.

 


katrice
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Posted by: @ignant666
@katrice -  I fear you may have misunderstood Shiva- your truncation and separation of two integral thoughts leads me to think this...

 

I'm sorry, I did not mean to imply that I thought he was recommending against libations, or chemognosis as the chaos magicians call it.  I was just breaking up the statement to address parts of it independently. I admit that I still did probably fall prey to filtering things too much through my own predilections in doing that, though. Sorry if I formatted that poorly. 

 

I'm all for libations, and have used them to good effect, but I have seen people become too reliant on them, or, worse, equate them with magickal practice itself.  Personally, I see them as a tool for pointing the way to states that may not be immediately attainable otherwise, but which can become attainable on their own with practice.

 

Posted by: @ignant666

Also, what are "De Cultu practices"?

 

This one was not new, it's from Crowley himself, a section of The Book of Wisdom or Folly.  

 

Specifically this part:

 

ο De Cultu:

Now, o my Son, that thou mayst be well guarded against thy ghostly Enemies, do thou work constantly by the Means prescribed in our Holy Books.

Neglect never the fourfold Adorations of the Sun in his four Stations, for thereby thou doest affirm thy Place in Nature and her Harmonies.

Neglect not the Performance of the Ritual of the Pentagram, and of the Assumption of the Form of Hoor-pa-Kraat.

 

Neglect not the daily Miracle of the Mass, either by the Rite of the Gnostic Catholic Church, or that of the Phœnix.

Neglect not the Performance of the Mass of the Holy Ghost, as Nature herself prompteth thee.

Travel also much in the Empyrean in the Body of Light, seeking ever Abodes more fiery and lucid.

Finally, exercise constantly the Eight Limbs of Yoga. And so shalt thou come to the End.

 

Posted by: @ignant666

To your credit, you are continually bringing new concepts/terminology, etc to the table here, but sometimes us elderly folk may need a bit of help on the latest "jive" that you young folk are "hep on".

 

Thank you!  I like when I can teach someone something new.

Posted by: @ignant666

warts, buboes, the plague, and/or "spiritual enlightenment"

I LOLed at seeing these mentioned together in the same line.

 


Michael Staley
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Posted by: @ignant666

90% (being polite here) of those who do not libate have not left the house; they are at best looking out the windows.

Being polite here, I think this is a questionable assertion; in my opinion, undertaking work which yields magical and mystical experience takes one outside the house, and I suspect that more people do it this way than with libation. Of course the two are not mutually exclusive, and forty or fifty years ago I had my share of libations; I prefer, though, to do without it.


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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Maybe, and my "90%" was clearly somewhere between a provocation, and an actual SWAG (Scientific Wild-Ass Guess).

See also Art Kleps'  "Acid is not easier than the traditional methods, it’s just faster, and sneakier." (The Boo-Hoo Bible, 1971, "Shit", p. 19-B; available here).

Thank you, @katrice for identifying a reference i should have caught, especially having just quoted Liber Aleph in the last week.


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katrice
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Posted by: @ignant666

Maybe, and my "90%" was clearly somewhere between a provocation, and an actual SWAG (Scientific Wild-Ass Guess).

See also Art Kleps'  "Acid is not easier than the traditional methods, it’s just faster, and sneakier." (The Boo-Hoo Bible, 1971, "Shit", p. 19-B; available here).

Faster, and sneakier definitely.  

The new "jive", or newly popular old jive, for dealing with "Shit" is "shadow work"

I'm not too fond of the part in that excerpt after "Why don’t more girls try psychedelic psychology? ", though. 

Thank you, @katrice for identifying a reference i should have caught, especially having just quoted Liber Aleph in the last week.

No problem, I really could have been clearer.

I do a bunch of other things in addition to that, but it serves as the framework for a lot of my daily practice, and my preferred version of the Mass of the Phoenix is this one.

 

Posted by: @shiva

That is (technically) what I meant by "It gets easier." One has a constant Zero-point, Zen, Void, Ain, 61 reference point available for refuge - all the time.

That makes perfect sense. An aspect of daimonic integration. As you mention, the process only starts at Tiphareth, the integration is not a singular event. 

 

Thank you for the file!  I will give it a read.  I'm more familiar with Chinese martial arts than Japanese.

 

Posted by: @shiva

Except when it's not available. The Path or the Angel or the Process will do things to stir up one's mind, usually involving some bullshit karma that threatens one's life, or job, or mind, or whatever it takes to rattle a mind enough that the hidden refuge gets re-hidden. Eek!  I'm on my own, again!

Can confirm.


ignant666
(@ignant666)
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I agree that that sexist aside mars an otherwise pretty good article. It's of course the sort of thing AC says all the time, but silly and redolent of a mentality that is receding into the mists of time. At least i associate that particular variety of misogyny with dudes a lot older than me.

I provided the link to the Kleps article simply as the original source of a semi-famous formulation about psychedelics and The Work, and not as an endorsement of its entire contents. I wouldn't endorse all of anything* Kleps has to say though i do like his work, and he was a big influence as a kid.

He ended up as a raving anti-Semite and general far-right nut, but is important as an early acid-religion person who opposed all forms of "spirituality" as falling for the same trap normies fall for when they believe quotidian material phenomena are "reality". He hated Tim Leary (after being close allies for a time), and hated AC as a bad influence on Dr Tim (i don't think Kleps ever read much AC though). Millbrook and The Boo Hoo Bible are both worth reading and in print.

------------

*For example, i would not agree that all human effort should be immediately redirected to the destruction of the planet Saturn, in order to slow down time and make believers in astrology happier (see pp. 157-9, Boo Hoo Bible, sadly not included in online excerpts):

Taking LSD is no substitute for blowing up planets. I am morally certain that Dr Hoffman never, in his wildest dream, envisioned anyone putting his discovery to any such chicken use as employing it as a substitute for blowing up planets. [p. 158]

Kleps notes that all possible arguments against the immediate "bombardment and annihilation of the planet Saturn" are examples of the "influence of the planet Saturn", so "the only solution is to blow the big fat greasy son-of-a-bitch to smithereens" (all from p. 157). This "will not eliminate time ... but will slow it down to a manageable level." (p. 158).


Shiva
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Posted by: @michael-staley

fifty years ago I had my share of libations; I prefer, though, to do without it.

In support of your preference, I submit quotes ("proof") from Inside Solar Lodge - Behind the Veil ...

There is no evidence that either Crowley or Leary ever progressively cut down, taking less and less in order to demonstrate the Other-world in "normal" consciousness on a permanent basis.

But the knights and ladies of Solar Lodge that I still know today did just that. How much "Other-world" they are exhibiting in their lives is their concern, but they're not hosting psychedelic ceremonies every other weekend, or even once in eleven years.

There are those who stayed on the path, that is, they did not decry the whole metaphysical realm for utter nonsense (as some did), but who fell victim to vampires. In every case, the vampire was pharmaceutical … but never a psychedelic. ...

Those who fell to the vampire are gone now, dead or crippled beyond repair. Their light has been put out or their radiance has been dimmed. Beware.

  

Anyway, Jack Schwarz also asked me, "Look I know you only use this to open the doors of perception; why don't you just leave the doors open?"

He was right, and my motto became, "less and less until there was need no more."

 

Posted by: @katrice

As you mention, the process only starts at Tiphareth, the integration is not a singular event. 

There is a singular event that occurs at Tiphareth. It establishes the Link. You are correct in that it is not a full integration - it's just the beginning. In Leary-lingo, it would be the imprint of the 5th circuit.

Posted by: @katrice

I'm more familiar with Chinese martial arts than Japanese.

I taught Tai Chi and Chi Gong for 14 years. We also included Karate, Aikido, and a sword demo (once a year). There is no difference in any of the arts, Chinese, Japanese, Israeli, French. Every culture has its own form of self-defense, and most of them look different from the others. But the core principles remain constant throughout all styles, and the grading system is usually the same

beginner,
intermediate,
advanced {black belt, red sash, etc},
very advanced [Tiphareth and up],
with a few, far-out fellows at some level high enough that they can make onlookers blink and gasp as they perform some seemingly impossible 8th circuit maneuver - they are always old and they always seem to be either smiling or completely detached.

Posted by: @ignant666

... all possible arguments against the immediate "bombardment and annihilation of the planet Saturn" are examples of the "influence of the planet Saturn"

This is completely logical. If Saturn did not exist, there would be no resistance against its destruction. I see no reason for any action that would surely unbalance the Sol system. It is better to realize the illusory nature of time - that is, it cannot be the steady constant we are held to if it speeds up and slows down, which everybody knows is true because they have experienced it.


katrice
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Posted by: @ignant666

I agree that that sexist aside mars an otherwise pretty good article. It's of course the sort of thing AC says all the time, but silly and redolent of a mentality that is receding into the mists of time. 

True enough, Crowley had his own misogyny going on, with plenty of quotes to show it.

At least i associate that particular variety of misogyny with dudes a lot older than me.

Now we have MRAs, MGTOW, Incels, and the rest of the Manosphere holding up viewpoints like that as universal truths. 

I provided the link to the Kleps article simply as the original source of a semi-famous formulation about psychedelics and The Work, and not as an endorsement of its entire content

I did understand that.  I had no problems at all with the rest of the article, which was quite good and reinforced the points both of us were discussing.  

 

bombardment and annihilation of the planet Saturn

That...seems a bit much.


katrice
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Posted by: @shiva

He was right, and my motto became, "less and less until there was need no more."

 

I apologize to the LAShTAL Masters for the serial posting- for some reason my draft posted as I was typing it, so I'm continuing here.

 

I'd argue that less and less until there was need no more could also describe the natural progression could describe the natural progression of initiation too. The tool becoming more and more efficient until it disappears and becomes a state.

  But the core principles remain constant throughout all styles, and the grading system is usually the same

My own knowledge in this area is limited but I have gathered that the core principles are indeed constant.

 

they are always old and they always seem to be either smiling or completely detached.

The equivalent of Magisters Templi? 

 

In Leary-lingo, it would be the imprint of the 5th circuit.

I would consider Adeptus Minor Within to be higher than 5th Circuit. 

 


herupakraath
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

But - if we believe AC and the book - there can be only one indisputable solution. If this solution is meaningful, all the better. But I am not sure it has to be, it just has to be indisputable.

A solution that is without meaning, and yet is indisputable: you have just described a mathematical solution.

 


herupakraath
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Posted by: @ignant666

The problem with all purported "cypher solutions" so far is that they add zero to "the glory of Thrlema's authenticity", because they are all so contrived, so pointless, and so totally unconvincing.

What should be the point of the solution, what would convince you?

 


Shiva
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Posted by: @herupakraath

What should be the point of the solution, what would convince you?

It is self-evident therefore (obviously) one who saw it would be self-convinced. However, there's this thing about nobody knows nuthin' 'til the evidence is evident. That is, one cannot construct personal criteria (in advance) for an unknown revelation ... and afterwards it will be too late, because the feline will be out of the purse.


katrice
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Posted by: @shiva

(Ken Wilber comes to mind)

I mentioned it earlier, but wanted to ask, are you familiar with Spiral Dynamics?  And, if you have, have you read Beck and Cowan's original book on the subject? 


hadgigegenraum
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 From Budo to the Boo Hoo Bible....that sort of defines spiral dynamics around here... I am sure Ken Wilber has a lot to say...


Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

... are you familiar with Spiral Dynamics?  And, if you have, have you read Beck and Cowan's original book on the subject? 

No, and (therefore) No.

 


katrice
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @katrice

... are you familiar with Spiral Dynamics?  And, if you have, have you read Beck and Cowan's original book on the subject? 

No, and (therefore) No.

 

 

It's a model of development of individuals and societies using what are called Vmemes, which I mentioned here a while ago. Memes in the Richard Dawkins memetics sense, rather than the more common contemporary idea of the concept, Vmemes being value systems defining individuals and groups arranged in a developmental hierarchy  Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, whose Flow concept I mentioned a while ago too, which you compared to wu wei, also had a hand in it too.

There's something interesting in the original Beck and Cowan model that didn't carry fully to Wilber's version, and I've only seen it referred to a couple of times, and it isn't mentioned at all in the book.  The colors associated with the Vmemes mostly follow the King Scale on the Tree of Life.

 


Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

The colors associated with the Vmemes mostly follow the King Scale on the Tree of Life.

Which would make the concepts abstract in a certain sense that I don't understand. You see, I once memorized the Queen scale (only), and many of those memories are still active. As for the King, Junior, and Miss columns, I have no original memories to retain or resurrect. At one point I understood the distinction(s) between the four worlds, but I cannot explain it right now, or tomorrow. 

All of these deficiencies are due to the fact that the Q scale is that of Nature, and thus presents the colors we actually see ... and I don't care about the others.

So maybe somebody can tell me what world/dimension the King scale falls into ...?

 


katrice
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@shiva 

To be completely honest, I am not certain of the choice of that particular color scale, I just noticed that it aligned too closely to be a complete coincidence.  It does seem odd for a system that only touches on the subtle levels of consciousness at higher levels, but  the vmemes actually align with the planetary correspondences of the sephiroth pretty closely too. But there's no mention of the Tree of Life at all in the book. 


Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

I am not certain of the choice of that particular color scale

Oh, Lordy. Two of us lost together in the wilderness of columns and colors and confusion.. You see what I mean? Who really cares? [cue insertion of disgruntled anal QBList[.

Posted by: @katrice

... there's no mention of the Tree of Life at all in the book. 

There is no need to be (mentioned). All valid systems are established by their founder (or editor) as a description of the one, universal spectrum of consciousness. Any system may be judged by comparing its key points to what we know of this invisible spectrum. It has no name. People put names on it and say, "This is it!" Right.

Anyway, you caught a color sequence that reminded you of some other system. If you were to anally ( speak psychologically) correlate the two streams, we could say, "Look, here is a series of meaningful coincidences." Back to synchronicity, eh? Well, there are times and places upon the Path (I assume everyone's Path) where all one has as a guide is meaningful coincidence. 

(There are also terrible times when even sychronicity is hiding, the guru has died, the cards make no sense, the I Ching is speaking in a lost dialect of ancient Chinese, and some electrical device (often a computer or phone) stops working. But let's not dwell on the uncertain times so early in the New E.V.)

Anyway, a system need not conform in name or style to a Tree, or anything else, if it's capable of singing its own song.


katrice
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 Posted by: @shiva

Anyway, you caught a color sequence that reminded you of some other system. If you were to anally ( speak psychologically) correlate the two streams, we could say, "Look, here is a series of meaningful coincidences." Back to synchronicity, eh? Well, there are times and places upon the Path (I assume everyone's Path) where all one has as a guide is meaningful coincidence. 

True enough, but a coincidence of color and meaning on that scale implies some influence, if uncredited.  That much alignment seems near impossible to happen on its own.

 

Anyway, though, you, or others here, might find it interesting.  Or not. Here's the wiki page.

If that sparks your interest, I'd recommend the Beck and Cowan book for more.


hadgigegenraum
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Does the answer to II. 76 imply a spiraled color scale...some think it all comes down to a shade of glimmering pink~~~~


ignant666
(@ignant666)
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Red stuff impeding the view of the clear light of the void?


hadgigegenraum
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(@ahihchiva567)
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@hadgigegenraum 

Is there an answer to II.76? It appears any IMPLICATION becomes moot on this subject.

 What would a shade of glimmering pink...imply?


 
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ignant666
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Red stuff impeding the view of the clear light of the void?

Exactly


Shiva
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Posted by: @ignant666

Red stuff impeding the view of the clear light of the void?

This is not fair. Any Color of Stuff is adequate to obscure the clear light. Any Color = Any Agenda (of any kind). This is why I accuse people of any color, who get in trouble around here, of Having An Agenda.

It doesn't matter what the Agenda is - it matters that they have pre-programmed preferential bias. They are subconsciously seeking an audience for recognition, power, sex, drugs, or sales of their art.

We also may (probably do) apply this same parable to the individual mind. The same pattern and process is seen. We think it is "this" or "that," but really it is nothing. There must be exceptions, and many of those touch bases with these threads, speaking scenes of nothing and the void but, in general, folks find it more comfortable to express something (anything) rather than dabble  with nirvana. This is because nirvana-nothing-void does not amplify the illusion of their existence.

 


hadgigegenraum
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @ignant666

Red stuff impeding the view of the clear light of the void?

This is not fair. Any Color of Stuff is adequate to obscure the clear light. Any Color = Any Agenda (of any kind). This is why I accuse people of any color, who get in trouble around here, of Having An Agenda.

It doesn't matter what the Agenda is - it matters that they have pre-programmed preferential bias. They are subconsciously seeking an audience for recognition, power, sex, drugs, or sales of their art.

We also may (probably do) apply this same parable to the individual mind. The same pattern and process is seen. We think it is "this" or "that," but really it is nothing. There must be exceptions, and many of those touch bases with these threads, speaking scenes of nothing and the void but, in general, folks find it more comfortable to express something (anything) rather than dabble  with nirvana. This is because nirvana-nothing-void does not amplify the illusion of their existence.

 

and thus the parable of the solution to the cipher...or those so chasing the promise!


Shiva
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Posted by: @ahihchiva567

 Agenda you make it sound so dirty.

Well, it is (dirty).

This is LAShTAL, where sane (but often ethereal) folks register, sit down (or fly), and discuss the life and times of AC, with extensions from his brain into the present real-here-now and off-shoots into off-topic ramblism.

Sometimes a person or a people come along who are not here for that purpose. They are here to push their soiled, stinky-poo Agenda.

Now this can get very complicated, complex, or confused, so here's just a few examples of Agendae ...

1. Buy my bookPush the tome but disappear after that because you're not really interested in AC but in selling the book. This materialistic approach is known as Naked Captalism or Book-hawking.

2. I Will Now Explain Thelema to YouThose who will freely interpret the workings of the Universe. Should you be stupid enough to disagree, you will be subjected to various downgrades, insults, and your mother's reputation will be called into question.

3. Pssst! Hey you! Want some Viagra or a Russian Bride? The grossest form of commercialism, often enacted by digital robots. Their wares have nothing to do with AC, but are designed to produce semen, so they feel they are justified.

The idea behind these (few) examples is that their so-called Agenda is based on purse-enhancement, ego-enhancement, or vilification of the innocent Children of God (the regular posters who are not pushing anything).

Thank you for allowing me to qualify the use or misuse of what I might have meant.

Posted by: @ahihchiva567

... my only goal is to complete the mission assigned, then, only then, can I get on with it. 

Ah, so, and golly-gee-wiz!  Your numbers and equations don't show any shafts of light that catch my attention. Perhaps there is/are another(s) here who catch the glimmer and can connect the dots.

Some of us are retired, you see, too feeble to jump into the water and play polo with the mentats. And why? For has not the final ultimate "secret" already been revealed in the Liber, the threads, and through endless echoing announcements.

61 the Jews call it.
But the units miss the call
for they cannot hear it
'cause they're separate from the All.

Perhaps ... if one were to upgrade from the numerlingo of Hod, to some higher form of plain English, speaking or writing plainly in the here-and-now, some agreement on the ultimate fate of one tendril (or tentacle) of this thread can be reached.

 


hadgigegenraum
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@ahihchiva567 

Don't feel hurt the anti-agenda agenda might well equal anti stinky-poo poo without the corresponding aroma, sort of like color without colors...

Now your jottings of jots such that this jot equals that jot is appreciated, and I get a hint, to quote your post:

"The mission, for at least the better part of ten years, now, anyway, find the man who knows the language of AL, present him with the gift, and if there becomes an agreement in the value of it's message, if that man be willing to accept the challenge, offer him the fish, for He will know what to do with it. Yes. He will know what to do with it. I have no other agenda...for my only goal is to complete the mission assigned, then, only then, can I get on with it."

that your jottings are intended to not so much give an answer, but rather an invitation, to wonder and successful fishing, just like Jesus, though others may say, 'an invitation to obsession',...started by Crowley who did not seem so interested in the fragment or whole...that becomes stinky, if one does not protect oneself in the anti-agenda-ism, through a sharing of fragments of a method that has been steaming up for a number of years, perhaps confounding your mother who might be hearing the Beatles refrain..."Everybody fucked up, everybody fucked up"...what at your conception per chance....?!

Don't blame me, you brought up your mother...

So "coo coo ca choo" equals...? or is it some universal modifier and solvent? or is it the pronunciation code to II. 76....and in the pink so to speak....

Yes on occasion I might review the fragments of yours and others, agenda or no agenda, thanks for the jots that equal other jots....


Shiva
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Posted by: @ahihchiva567

And we are all together

This is true ... at a certain "elevated" level. This is also the source of a cry going up in our contemporary civilization - We are all One!

However cozy that may be, the appreciation of us all being One as seen (by direct perception) in samadhi, does not necessarily mean that we will all get along in a restricted, self-separated dominion composed of hard matter (which everybody wants to own all of).

So Oneness or Differentness depends on the circumstances and the real-time right-now state of the participants. If we meet and you extend your hand with a $100 bill in it, the result will be different if, instead, it holds a dagger.

Posted by: @ahihchiva567

Some might say Liber AL has an Agenda.

And they would be correct.

Posted by: @ahihchiva567

But, then again, who am I? I'm just passing through.

drop
tuat
Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Don't blame me, you brought up your mother...

No he didn't. I did. Therefore you are to blame.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

... is it some universal modifier and solvent?

DMSO (Dimethylsulfoxide).

 


hadgigegenraum
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@shiva 

 

Yes DMSO is great stuff, fascinating and thus your reply has gotten me thinking, off topic but I will get around to it, thus since you are an acupuncturist, is DMSO used perhaps as  a carrier substances for say herb applications, gem elixirs, etc at acupuncture points, I know color puncture is a methodology, as there are many...so maybe the riddle is some sort of schedule for treating the mamas....or we could make one up and have an agenda and sell the agenda, and the how to open the gates by the proper combination brought forth like gold in that string of pearls...

 


Shiva
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

... is DMSO used perhaps as  a carrier[for] substances ... ?

It depends on which side of the table you are on.

Legally (the top side), practitioners of Oriental Medicine are not authorized to deliver substances via DMSO ... or by injection (except here in NM, where injection is legal). DMSO is not specifically prohibited - it just doesn't fall under any category of ancient Traditional Chines Medicine.

Neither does injection, but the clever folks in NM just copied what they do today in heathen Chinese hospitals in heathen China ... and they made it legal here because they've got a link into the legislature that is stronger than the Medical Association.

If anything went "wrong" with a DMSO infiltration, any practitioner of anything better have good malpractice insurance, because it works so good that the medical folks want to keep it controversial.

I am a so-called expert on DMSO. How can I say such a thing? Well, I have "prescribed" it and used it (on people, dogs, and myself) for over forty years.

I have seen it applied in massive overdose quantities. This, my clinical safety trial, is so extreme that I will describe it ... as shortly as possible. You will understand that we are now moving into Tales from Under The Table ...

I had prescribed DMSO to Frater Mont for sme minor but painful injury. He was so impressed that he bought his own 1-gallon jug of the 100% stuff (and he put it in storage). When we got to Colorado, the first thing he did was start lifting and tossing huge stump-logs onto a log-splitter ... and his lower back did a snap followed by intense pain.

The proper format is a small amount of liquid or gel in 70% concentration (30% pure water). 

He filled a small cup and poured the 100% stuff onto his back, several times a day, for a couple weeks. No side effects. None, Only pain relief and a few puddles to clean up.

Now that we find it safe and effective, we may address your question. Uner the table, so to speak, there are people everywhere using this as a delivery system for anything it can dissolve. You will need to do your own clinical trials. Since it dissolves paint and aborbs poisons and poo, one is supposed to be cleanly (no using DMSO after spreading ant poison granules with you hands ... unless you wash your hands first).

To get even more factual and fantstic, try this one on for size ...

We were getting dressed in the dojo dressing room. I was advising some person who had "pulled" something to rub on DMSO. Sensei, a 5th dan Aikidoist and Professor of Physics and Biology, overheard and said, "In the [UCLA] lab, we all carried squirt guns filled with DMSO and LSD."

The casual reader must understand that ANYTHING dissolved in DMSO is going to get dissolved in YOU if it touches your skin. You may resort to you own imagination in order to witness the Mayhem in Lab 718.

 

I am pleased to see that you, HG, have dropped by so soon - for it was only this morn that I connected two dots. The connection of two dots equals a datum. These are the data associated with the datum ...

A couple or so posts back, you were irreverent enough to poke fun at numbers and words and equations. How dare you?

In reference (evidence) to your heresy, please study the following quote ...

Look not so deeply into words and letters; for this Mystery hath been

hidden by the Alchemists. Compose the sevenfold into a fourfold regimen; and

when thou hast understood thou mayest make symbols; but by playing child's

games with symbols thou shalt never understand. Thou hast the signs; thou

hast the words; but there are many things that are not in my power, who am but

the warden of the 28th Aethyr.

Your Certificate, previously mentioned in front of all these people, will now come with a small gold star for irreverance come true by angelic advice (A.'.A.'.).

Um, your dues have not arrived as yet. Please remember that, due to the present impending End of the World, the term "all dues and fees must be paid in advance," must be taken to imply and demand ten years of said extortion in advance. Yes, I know, but this is all based on The OHO-centric Constitution of 1917.

 


ignant666
(@ignant666)
Elderly American druggie
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4007
 
Posted by: @shiva

we all carried squirt guns filled with DMSO and LSD.

On October 21, 1967, the Youth International Party (aka Yippies) held a huge anti-war demonstration (about 100,000 people) outside the Pentagon: the "Exorcism of the Pentagon", because "everybody knows that a five-sided figure is evil."

They sought a permit to levitate the Pentagon 300 feet in the air, which would make it turn orange and vibrate, which would in turn end the Viet Nam War. The Federal government would only issue them a permit to levitate it to ten feet, which may explain why the war lasted six more years.

They made a big deal in the media about their plans to use a sprayable psychedelic called "LACE" to deal with any cop assaults at the demo:

The protesters were armed with flowers, guitars, and lysergic acid crypto ethylene (LACE), intended to counter the effects of mace. They called it a purple aphrodisiac that “makes you want to take off your clothes, kiss people, and make love.” In reality, it was Shapiro’s Disappear-o, a disappearing ink from Taiwan. [ https://timeline.com/pentagon-exorcism-ae0aad1b55c5 ]

The mythical "LACE" was supposedly exactly what your sensei said they used in the UCLA lab, LSD mixed with DMSO, dispensed with squirt guns.


Aleisterion
(@aleisterion)
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Posts: 384
 

As I gaze out from our little boat of a thread, I see we are far, far adrift, so I'll steer for just a moment, just to correct course a bit.

What the solution of these two verses is marked by is its simplicity. What bothers me about all other "solutions" is that they are difficult to wade through, not even remotely simple - and the method by which they derive their madness is contrived or artificially constructed. 

My solution is simple. One number: 777. The method by which we arrive at the solution is also not contrived at all, but simply happens to be the natural order and value of the letters, A-1 through Z=26. 

What is most interesting is that it took me until the mid-2000s - after nearly 30 years of examining the problem - to finally get the answer. It took me that long - dense as I am - to think to add up the letters and numbers of both verses, 75 and 76, and not just those of verse 76.

And, actually, a clue is planted in the other verse (L 1:56) that foreshadows this very situation. "All words are sacred and all prophets true; save only that they understand a little; solve the first half of the equation, leave the second unattacked."

It's true: I did as everyone else does, I tackled the second verse, the enigmatic line of letters and numbers, leaving the other line unattacked. It left me baffled for so many years: my intuition told me that I had the key, but clearly I wasn't applying it correctly. 

I forgot what made me finally add verse 75 to verse 76. But as soon as I did, it was as if light shone down and a choir of angels sang. 777: the one to follow after 666.

Okay, well, I am more than happy with it. It's simple; it's not contrived; and it's perfect. And it even adds an "Aha!" twist to L 1:56, as aforesaid.

Wonderful! But as I said previously, no solution will ever be accepted by everyone unquestioningly. Not ever gonna happen. What is going to happen, is that a body of important work will be the proof of this pudding. This solution is merely the icing on the cake of wonderful insights, ideas, and a whole huge corpus of fresh new materials that don't merely rehash the ideas of old prophets, but that actually recapture the same exciting current of magick that inspired all prophets and oracles across all time.

I'm excited, and those working with us here in Detroit are all just as excited, about this discovery, but that's because we see the rest of it unfolding. "Time unveileth truth". For now, I am ecstatic, inspired, and passionate about this; but the real good it does is to serve as motivation.

The riddle of 2:75-6 is a road that leads somewhere, it isn't an end in itself. It leads the one that solves it to unlock a vault of far greater treasure. It leads to clarity.

 

 

 


Shiva
(@shiva)
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Posted by: @ignant666

"everybody knows that a five-sided figure is evil."

Yes, of course. Most govs, everywhere, have one or more pentagrams on their flags. At this point in history, which is now changing daily, the warriors and the pols must have consulted the magicians, because today I don't think many folks know about Dominion, Geburah, Pentagrams, or how they shout, "War!

Posted by: @ignant666

They sought a permit to levitate the Pentagon 300 feet in the air, which would make it turn orange and vibrate, which would in turn end the Viet Nam War. The Federal government would only issue them a permit to levitate it to ten feet, which may explain why the war lasted six more years.

And we think we are living in strange times now. The truth of the matter lies in the fact that the struggle 'twixt the gov (king?) and the folks.  Every generation gets to haveits war (or two) and every generation rises up (in cyclic display) against the policies of the gov. Why? Because the gov fiddles with its pentagrams while over-reaching upon its people and its neighbors.

Posted by: @ignant666

The mythical "LACE" was supposedly exactly what your sensei said they used in the UCLA lab, LSD mixed with DMSO, dispensed with squirt guns.

I didn't know anything about DMSO in '67 or so, thus I missed out on this delivery method that resembles sneak attacks.

Posted by: @aleisterion

[the other solutions] are difficult to wade through, not even remotely simple - and the method by which they derive their madness is contrived or artificially constructed. 

Yes, this is what we keep telling the Qabalists as they present the final solution.

 

 


wellreadwellbred
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Topic starter  
Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @herupakraath

What should be the point of the solution, what would convince you?

It is self-evident therefore (obviously) one who saw it would be self-convinced. However, there's this thing about nobody knows nuthin' 'til the evidence is evident. That is, one cannot construct personal criteria (in advance) for an unknown revelation ... and afterwards it will be too late, because the feline will be out of the purse.

AC's The New Comment to "II.75 Aye! listen to the numbers & the words:", contains the following statement:

"Be ye well assured all that the solution, when it is found, will be unquestionable. It will be marked by the most sublime simplicity, and carry immediate conviction."

But AC does in the same comment reject his just quoted statement about "sublime simplicity", by following it with the following statement:"

"( The above pragraph was written previous to the communication of Charles Stansfeld Jones with regard to the 'numbers and the words' which constitute the Key to the cipher of this Book. See the Appendix to these comment[-s]. I prefer to leave my remark as it originally stood, in order to mark my attitude at the time of writing. ) "

My point is that AC's statement about that the solution to the II.76 cipher "... will be marked by the most sublime simplicity, and carry immediate conviction.", is an opinion AC had only for a while, before rejecting it. 


herupakraath
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Posted by: @aleisterion

I forgot what made me finally add verse 75 to verse 76. But as soon as I did, it was as if light shone down and a choir of angels sang. 777: the one to follow after 666.

Well I have to give it to you, there can be no simpler solution than one that makes no mention of the puzzle whatsoever.


Shiva
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Posts: 6827
 
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

AC's The New Comment to "II.75 Aye! listen to the numbers & the words:", contains the following statement:

WellRead, where have you been? I mean, you don't have to account for your ordeals, it's just that soo many posters (The Poster Children of God) have gone missing since that medical emergency was declared. It is a fine thing to see you are kicking.

Now. About this quoting of others, even if it is AC: You are hereby excused, pardoned, and excommunicated from any excessive quotation penalties, mere by by showing up.

Until it gets, um, burdensome again.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

My point is that AC's statement about that the solution to the II.76 cipher "... will be marked by the most sublime simplicity, and carry immediate conviction.", is an opinion AC had only for a while, before rejecting it. 

Right. And those were two (adjacent) good quotes. [insert link here to AC's Discrepancies thread].

The first quote ("sublime simplicity") is perhaps like saying "at the end of the path there is nothing." People hear it, pretend to get it, then go away without attaining enlightenment.

If we want a simple solution, we can start with Aleisteron's 777 solution. I haven't seen the math, nor have I followed the instructions (add 'em up), so I cannot confirm that the data dump = 777, but it's a good start. It's simple.

The second quote is based on AC applying 31 to RPSTOVAL, and it is so confusing that I feel faint and fall into disbelief. AC's "application" of "Achad's solution" was neither self-convincing nor complete.

Posted by: @herupakraath

there can be no simpler solution than one that makes no mention of the puzzle whatsoever.

Oh, goodness, you are right. We still don't know who RP STOVAL is (unless it's Achad).

 


Aleisterion
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Posted by: @shiva

If we want a simple solution, we can start with Aleisteron's 777 solution. I haven't seen the math, nor have I followed the instructions (add 'em up), so I cannot confirm that the data dump = 777, but it's a good start. It's simple.

4 6 3 8 ABK = 35

2 4 ALGMOR = 6 + 66 = 72

3 YX = 52

24 + 89 + 123 = 236

The line of "the numbers & the words" (4 6 3 8 A B K 2 4 A L G M O R 3 Y X 24 89 R P S T O V A L) = 395.

Add the previous line ("Aye! listen to the numbers & the words"):

aye listen = 110

to the numbers = 160

& the words = 112

395 + 110 + 160 + 112

= 777


herupakraath
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Posted by: @shiva

If we want a simple solution, we can start with Aleisteron's 777 solution. I haven't seen the math, nor have I followed the instructions (add 'em up), so I cannot confirm that the data dump = 777, but it's a good start. It's simple.

If the goal is to go simple, how about considering the simple statement that Crowley would never understand the meaning of the puzzle, thus disqualifying his opinions, and the hoped for simplicity in a puzzle that contains 28 elements that form eight groups of both letters and numbers.

Typically when a non-solver cannot get what they want out the puzzle, they either ignore some aspects of it, thus reducing some its elements, or figure out a way to augment it, which Aleisterion has done by adding the gematria value of verse 75 to that of the puzzle. It is obvious to me at least that Aleisterion is aware of the weaknesses in his solution, which includes not explaining the purposes of the groups of puzzle letters and numbers. He tries to compensate by enumerating the groups separately when he could have simply written:

Aye! listen to the numbers & the words: = 382
4638 ABK 24 ALGMOR 3 YX 24 89 RPSTOVAL = 395

382 + 395 = 777

Beyond those criticisms, why should I believe the value 777 is a solution to the puzzle when the vague meaning that it appears to relay is Aleisterion is the one that is to follow Crowley. Seems like its all about the puzzle solver, and not about an actual solution.


hadgigegenraum
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@aleisterion 

Beautiful and congratulations!

And of course the verses go together, the verse numbers are restrictions of sorts, contrived afterthoughts...

So thank God this has been taken care of......Now we can get back to talking about the universal solvent and the war-engine....bring out the LSD squirt guns, get down to the Pentagon and levitate that monster!


Shiva
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Posts: 6827
 
Posted by: @ahihchiva567

vain of thought

Vein, please. We have enough vanity on hand.

Posted by: @herupakraath

If the goal is to go simple, how about considering the simple statement that Crowley would never understand the meaning of the puzzle

This is a good, simple starting point. If true, then anything the prophet says about it is to be considered in relation to a pinch of sodium chloride.

Posted by: @herupakraath

... why should I believe the value ... [?]

You shouldn't. We are instructed to Not Believe, but to evaluate-certify-prove anything to ourselves.


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