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katrice
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Posted by: @ignant666

I agree that that sexist aside mars an otherwise pretty good article. It's of course the sort of thing AC says all the time, but silly and redolent of a mentality that is receding into the mists of time. 

True enough, Crowley had his own misogyny going on, with plenty of quotes to show it.

At least i associate that particular variety of misogyny with dudes a lot older than me.

Now we have MRAs, MGTOW, Incels, and the rest of the Manosphere holding up viewpoints like that as universal truths. 

I provided the link to the Kleps article simply as the original source of a semi-famous formulation about psychedelics and The Work, and not as an endorsement of its entire content

I did understand that.  I had no problems at all with the rest of the article, which was quite good and reinforced the points both of us were discussing.  

 

bombardment and annihilation of the planet Saturn

That...seems a bit much.


katrice
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Posted by: @shiva

He was right, and my motto became, "less and less until there was need no more."

 

I apologize to the LAShTAL Masters for the serial posting- for some reason my draft posted as I was typing it, so I'm continuing here.

 

I'd argue that less and less until there was need no more could also describe the natural progression could describe the natural progression of initiation too. The tool becoming more and more efficient until it disappears and becomes a state.

  But the core principles remain constant throughout all styles, and the grading system is usually the same

My own knowledge in this area is limited but I have gathered that the core principles are indeed constant.

 

they are always old and they always seem to be either smiling or completely detached.

The equivalent of Magisters Templi? 

 

In Leary-lingo, it would be the imprint of the 5th circuit.

I would consider Adeptus Minor Within to be higher than 5th Circuit. 

 


herupakraath
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

But - if we believe AC and the book - there can be only one indisputable solution. If this solution is meaningful, all the better. But I am not sure it has to be, it just has to be indisputable.

A solution that is without meaning, and yet is indisputable: you have just described a mathematical solution.

 


herupakraath
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Posted by: @ignant666

The problem with all purported "cypher solutions" so far is that they add zero to "the glory of Thrlema's authenticity", because they are all so contrived, so pointless, and so totally unconvincing.

What should be the point of the solution, what would convince you?

 


Shiva
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Posted by: @herupakraath

What should be the point of the solution, what would convince you?

It is self-evident therefore (obviously) one who saw it would be self-convinced. However, there's this thing about nobody knows nuthin' 'til the evidence is evident. That is, one cannot construct personal criteria (in advance) for an unknown revelation ... and afterwards it will be too late, because the feline will be out of the purse.


katrice
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Posted by: @shiva

(Ken Wilber comes to mind)

I mentioned it earlier, but wanted to ask, are you familiar with Spiral Dynamics?  And, if you have, have you read Beck and Cowan's original book on the subject? 


hadgigegenraum
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 From Budo to the Boo Hoo Bible....that sort of defines spiral dynamics around here... I am sure Ken Wilber has a lot to say...


Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

... are you familiar with Spiral Dynamics?  And, if you have, have you read Beck and Cowan's original book on the subject? 

No, and (therefore) No.

 


katrice
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @katrice

... are you familiar with Spiral Dynamics?  And, if you have, have you read Beck and Cowan's original book on the subject? 

No, and (therefore) No.

 

 

It's a model of development of individuals and societies using what are called Vmemes, which I mentioned here a while ago. Memes in the Richard Dawkins memetics sense, rather than the more common contemporary idea of the concept, Vmemes being value systems defining individuals and groups arranged in a developmental hierarchy  Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, whose Flow concept I mentioned a while ago too, which you compared to wu wei, also had a hand in it too.

There's something interesting in the original Beck and Cowan model that didn't carry fully to Wilber's version, and I've only seen it referred to a couple of times, and it isn't mentioned at all in the book.  The colors associated with the Vmemes mostly follow the King Scale on the Tree of Life.

 


Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

The colors associated with the Vmemes mostly follow the King Scale on the Tree of Life.

Which would make the concepts abstract in a certain sense that I don't understand. You see, I once memorized the Queen scale (only), and many of those memories are still active. As for the King, Junior, and Miss columns, I have no original memories to retain or resurrect. At one point I understood the distinction(s) between the four worlds, but I cannot explain it right now, or tomorrow. 

All of these deficiencies are due to the fact that the Q scale is that of Nature, and thus presents the colors we actually see ... and I don't care about the others.

So maybe somebody can tell me what world/dimension the King scale falls into ...?

 


katrice
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@shiva 

To be completely honest, I am not certain of the choice of that particular color scale, I just noticed that it aligned too closely to be a complete coincidence.  It does seem odd for a system that only touches on the subtle levels of consciousness at higher levels, but  the vmemes actually align with the planetary correspondences of the sephiroth pretty closely too. But there's no mention of the Tree of Life at all in the book. 


Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

I am not certain of the choice of that particular color scale

Oh, Lordy. Two of us lost together in the wilderness of columns and colors and confusion.. You see what I mean? Who really cares? [cue insertion of disgruntled anal QBList[.

Posted by: @katrice

... there's no mention of the Tree of Life at all in the book. 

There is no need to be (mentioned). All valid systems are established by their founder (or editor) as a description of the one, universal spectrum of consciousness. Any system may be judged by comparing its key points to what we know of this invisible spectrum. It has no name. People put names on it and say, "This is it!" Right.

Anyway, you caught a color sequence that reminded you of some other system. If you were to anally ( speak psychologically) correlate the two streams, we could say, "Look, here is a series of meaningful coincidences." Back to synchronicity, eh? Well, there are times and places upon the Path (I assume everyone's Path) where all one has as a guide is meaningful coincidence. 

(There are also terrible times when even sychronicity is hiding, the guru has died, the cards make no sense, the I Ching is speaking in a lost dialect of ancient Chinese, and some electrical device (often a computer or phone) stops working. But let's not dwell on the uncertain times so early in the New E.V.)

Anyway, a system need not conform in name or style to a Tree, or anything else, if it's capable of singing its own song.


katrice
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 Posted by: @shiva

Anyway, you caught a color sequence that reminded you of some other system. If you were to anally ( speak psychologically) correlate the two streams, we could say, "Look, here is a series of meaningful coincidences." Back to synchronicity, eh? Well, there are times and places upon the Path (I assume everyone's Path) where all one has as a guide is meaningful coincidence. 

True enough, but a coincidence of color and meaning on that scale implies some influence, if uncredited.  That much alignment seems near impossible to happen on its own.

 

Anyway, though, you, or others here, might find it interesting.  Or not. Here's the wiki page.

If that sparks your interest, I'd recommend the Beck and Cowan book for more.


hadgigegenraum
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Does the answer to II. 76 imply a spiraled color scale...some think it all comes down to a shade of glimmering pink~~~~


AhihChiva567
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@hadgigegenraum 

Is there an answer to II.76? It appears any IMPLICATION becomes moot on this subject.

 What would a shade of glimmering pink...imply?


ignant666
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Red stuff impeding the view of the clear light of the void?


AhihChiva567
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@ignant666 

Right...kinda like the cipher itself. Numbers, Letters. You know, Jabberwoky of a God.


hadgigegenraum
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@hadgigegenraum 

Is there an answer to II.76? It appears any IMPLICATION becomes moot on this subject.

 What would a shade of glimmering pink...imply?


 
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ignant666
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Red stuff impeding the view of the clear light of the void?

Exactly


Shiva
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Posted by: @ignant666

Red stuff impeding the view of the clear light of the void?

This is not fair. Any Color of Stuff is adequate to obscure the clear light. Any Color = Any Agenda (of any kind). This is why I accuse people of any color, who get in trouble around here, of Having An Agenda.

It doesn't matter what the Agenda is - it matters that they have pre-programmed preferential bias. They are subconsciously seeking an audience for recognition, power, sex, drugs, or sales of their art.

We also may (probably do) apply this same parable to the individual mind. The same pattern and process is seen. We think it is "this" or "that," but really it is nothing. There must be exceptions, and many of those touch bases with these threads, speaking scenes of nothing and the void but, in general, folks find it more comfortable to express something (anything) rather than dabble  with nirvana. This is because nirvana-nothing-void does not amplify the illusion of their existence.

 


hadgigegenraum
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @ignant666

Red stuff impeding the view of the clear light of the void?

This is not fair. Any Color of Stuff is adequate to obscure the clear light. Any Color = Any Agenda (of any kind). This is why I accuse people of any color, who get in trouble around here, of Having An Agenda.

It doesn't matter what the Agenda is - it matters that they have pre-programmed preferential bias. They are subconsciously seeking an audience for recognition, power, sex, drugs, or sales of their art.

We also may (probably do) apply this same parable to the individual mind. The same pattern and process is seen. We think it is "this" or "that," but really it is nothing. There must be exceptions, and many of those touch bases with these threads, speaking scenes of nothing and the void but, in general, folks find it more comfortable to express something (anything) rather than dabble  with nirvana. This is because nirvana-nothing-void does not amplify the illusion of their existence.

 

and thus the parable of the solution to the cipher...or those so chasing the promise!


AhihChiva567
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@shiva Agenda you make it sound so dirty.

I stand on the Saturn=Capricornus theme of II.76, as the correspondence implies. 

The group of letters RPSTOVAL (200+80+60+9+70+6+1+30)=456=(50+6+400) NUT and recaps the language of the preceeding letters.

Also (XIX+XVI+XIV+XI+XV+V+O+VIII)=88 KHABS. The number 88 (P, Ch) is repeated throughout the text, repeated here, and tells us quite a lot.

Chith-Ivd-Vv-Alp=561 (88)

Alp-Mim-Nun=307 (88)

Ph-Alp-Nun=302 (88)

The mission, for at least the better part of ten years, now, anyway, find the man who knows the language of AL, present him with the gift, and if there becomes an agreement in the value of it's message, if that man be willing to accept the challenge, offer him the fish, for He will know what to do with it. Yes. He will know what to do with it. I have no other agenda...for my only goal is to complete the mission assigned, then, only then, can I get on with it. 


Shiva
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Posted by: @ahihchiva567

 Agenda you make it sound so dirty.

Well, it is (dirty).

This is LAShTAL, where sane (but often ethereal) folks register, sit down (or fly), and discuss the life and times of AC, with extensions from his brain into the present real-here-now and off-shoots into off-topic ramblism.

Sometimes a person or a people come along who are not here for that purpose. They are here to push their soiled, stinky-poo Agenda.

Now this can get very complicated, complex, or confused, so here's just a few examples of Agendae ...

1. Buy my bookPush the tome but disappear after that because you're not really interested in AC but in selling the book. This materialistic approach is known as Naked Captalism or Book-hawking.

2. I Will Now Explain Thelema to YouThose who will freely interpret the workings of the Universe. Should you be stupid enough to disagree, you will be subjected to various downgrades, insults, and your mother's reputation will be called into question.

3. Pssst! Hey you! Want some Viagra or a Russian Bride? The grossest form of commercialism, often enacted by digital robots. Their wares have nothing to do with AC, but are designed to produce semen, so they feel they are justified.

The idea behind these (few) examples is that their so-called Agenda is based on purse-enhancement, ego-enhancement, or vilification of the innocent Children of God (the regular posters who are not pushing anything).

Thank you for allowing me to qualify the use or misuse of what I might have meant.

Posted by: @ahihchiva567

... my only goal is to complete the mission assigned, then, only then, can I get on with it. 

Ah, so, and golly-gee-wiz!  Your numbers and equations don't show any shafts of light that catch my attention. Perhaps there is/are another(s) here who catch the glimmer and can connect the dots.

Some of us are retired, you see, too feeble to jump into the water and play polo with the mentats. And why? For has not the final ultimate "secret" already been revealed in the Liber, the threads, and through endless echoing announcements.

61 the Jews call it.
But the units miss the call
for they cannot hear it
'cause they're separate from the All.

Perhaps ... if one were to upgrade from the numerlingo of Hod, to some higher form of plain English, speaking or writing plainly in the here-and-now, some agreement on the ultimate fate of one tendril (or tentacle) of this thread can be reached.

 


AhihChiva567
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@shiva 

Thank you for your explanation. Agenda = stnky-poo. Got it.

Thelema: "Those who will freely interpret the workings of the Universe"

I could never be so stupid. I am (therefore) you are. My sovereignty is yours, his, hers, theirs. "I am He as you are He as you are me And we are all together"

My mother's reputation has always been called into question. 

"61 the Jews call it" Just little zeros.

The final ultimate "secret" to be revealed in the Liber is the mystery of incarnation. Some might say Liber AL has an Agenda.

But, then again, who am I? I'm just passing through.

93, old-timer! and thank you very much for your time.


hadgigegenraum
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@ahihchiva567 

Don't feel hurt the anti-agenda agenda might well equal anti stinky-poo poo without the corresponding aroma, sort of like color without colors...

Now your jottings of jots such that this jot equals that jot is appreciated, and I get a hint, to quote your post:

"The mission, for at least the better part of ten years, now, anyway, find the man who knows the language of AL, present him with the gift, and if there becomes an agreement in the value of it's message, if that man be willing to accept the challenge, offer him the fish, for He will know what to do with it. Yes. He will know what to do with it. I have no other agenda...for my only goal is to complete the mission assigned, then, only then, can I get on with it."

that your jottings are intended to not so much give an answer, but rather an invitation, to wonder and successful fishing, just like Jesus, though others may say, 'an invitation to obsession',...started by Crowley who did not seem so interested in the fragment or whole...that becomes stinky, if one does not protect oneself in the anti-agenda-ism, through a sharing of fragments of a method that has been steaming up for a number of years, perhaps confounding your mother who might be hearing the Beatles refrain..."Everybody fucked up, everybody fucked up"...what at your conception per chance....?!

Don't blame me, you brought up your mother...

So "coo coo ca choo" equals...? or is it some universal modifier and solvent? or is it the pronunciation code to II. 76....and in the pink so to speak....

Yes on occasion I might review the fragments of yours and others, agenda or no agenda, thanks for the jots that equal other jots....


Shiva
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Posted by: @ahihchiva567

And we are all together

This is true ... at a certain "elevated" level. This is also the source of a cry going up in our contemporary civilization - We are all One!

However cozy that may be, the appreciation of us all being One as seen (by direct perception) in samadhi, does not necessarily mean that we will all get along in a restricted, self-separated dominion composed of hard matter (which everybody wants to own all of).

So Oneness or Differentness depends on the circumstances and the real-time right-now state of the participants. If we meet and you extend your hand with a $100 bill in it, the result will be different if, instead, it holds a dagger.

Posted by: @ahihchiva567

Some might say Liber AL has an Agenda.

And they would be correct.

Posted by: @ahihchiva567

But, then again, who am I? I'm just passing through.

drop
tuat
Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Don't blame me, you brought up your mother...

No he didn't. I did. Therefore you are to blame.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

... is it some universal modifier and solvent?

DMSO (Dimethylsulfoxide).

 


hadgigegenraum
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@shiva 

 

Yes DMSO is great stuff, fascinating and thus your reply has gotten me thinking, off topic but I will get around to it, thus since you are an acupuncturist, is DMSO used perhaps as  a carrier substances for say herb applications, gem elixirs, etc at acupuncture points, I know color puncture is a methodology, as there are many...so maybe the riddle is some sort of schedule for treating the mamas....or we could make one up and have an agenda and sell the agenda, and the how to open the gates by the proper combination brought forth like gold in that string of pearls...

 


AhihChiva567
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@hadgigegenraum 

I think if one had an agenda, and there was a certain discrepancy with the sort that stinks up the Aire, then that individual should make himself plain. "Hey! Everybody! Does this smell like shit to you?" If so, give me a minute...and I will do us ALLA favor and light a match. 

No "Solution" at all. The standard alphanumeric language of II.76 gives plenty of symbols and iconography to examine through the Atu of Thoth. I never cared to look further...If it's not right in front of your face you might be cross-eyed...

These jottings are to see what's out there, to see what is known, not known, denied, shyed from, frowned upon, or what have you...as I came to Thelema by my own channels, and know no other, lack of information (even in the information age) and have really been living on bread crumbs...

I like to fascinate "coo coo ca choo" might have been a way for the Eggman (it was an "O shit!" moment) to recall his former glory "And all the kings horses, and all the the kings men, could not put Humpty Dumpty back together again"..cuz He would have to do that himself. Perhaps He is HVA ( HH-VV-ALP=133+68=201 AR) and that's just what it is the best we can say. We're doing the best we can...still trying. Still Doing. Still shooting our shot!

Is it an obsession? No, curse (or Blessing) depending on how I'm behaving that day.

 

 

 


AhihChiva567
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@shiva 

Differences, do they separate, or bring us together? It's strange to think about (theory) anyway yes the gross matter tends to be what's been getting in the way of us coming together. He (man) distorts everything to his own ends, and even the most Holy is profane, twisted, sold, rapped...for the dollar. Thelema is no different...and one begins to wonder where to turn, or go about their dealings in such matters. 

"Just passing through"...Ha! I love it. I love when little silly stuff like that happens.


Shiva
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

... is DMSO used perhaps as  a carrier[for] substances ... ?

It depends on which side of the table you are on.

Legally (the top side), practitioners of Oriental Medicine are not authorized to deliver substances via DMSO ... or by injection (except here in NM, where injection is legal). DMSO is not specifically prohibited - it just doesn't fall under any category of ancient Traditional Chines Medicine.

Neither does injection, but the clever folks in NM just copied what they do today in heathen Chinese hospitals in heathen China ... and they made it legal here because they've got a link into the legislature that is stronger than the Medical Association.

If anything went "wrong" with a DMSO infiltration, any practitioner of anything better have good malpractice insurance, because it works so good that the medical folks want to keep it controversial.

I am a so-called expert on DMSO. How can I say such a thing? Well, I have "prescribed" it and used it (on people, dogs, and myself) for over forty years.

I have seen it applied in massive overdose quantities. This, my clinical safety trial, is so extreme that I will describe it ... as shortly as possible. You will understand that we are now moving into Tales from Under The Table ...

I had prescribed DMSO to Frater Mont for sme minor but painful injury. He was so impressed that he bought his own 1-gallon jug of the 100% stuff (and he put it in storage). When we got to Colorado, the first thing he did was start lifting and tossing huge stump-logs onto a log-splitter ... and his lower back did a snap followed by intense pain.

The proper format is a small amount of liquid or gel in 70% concentration (30% pure water). 

He filled a small cup and poured the 100% stuff onto his back, several times a day, for a couple weeks. No side effects. None, Only pain relief and a few puddles to clean up.

Now that we find it safe and effective, we may address your question. Uner the table, so to speak, there are people everywhere using this as a delivery system for anything it can dissolve. You will need to do your own clinical trials. Since it dissolves paint and aborbs poisons and poo, one is supposed to be cleanly (no using DMSO after spreading ant poison granules with you hands ... unless you wash your hands first).

To get even more factual and fantstic, try this one on for size ...

We were getting dressed in the dojo dressing room. I was advising some person who had "pulled" something to rub on DMSO. Sensei, a 5th dan Aikidoist and Professor of Physics and Biology, overheard and said, "In the [UCLA] lab, we all carried squirt guns filled with DMSO and LSD."

The casual reader must understand that ANYTHING dissolved in DMSO is going to get dissolved in YOU if it touches your skin. You may resort to you own imagination in order to witness the Mayhem in Lab 718.

 

I am pleased to see that you, HG, have dropped by so soon - for it was only this morn that I connected two dots. The connection of two dots equals a datum. These are the data associated with the datum ...

A couple or so posts back, you were irreverent enough to poke fun at numbers and words and equations. How dare you?

In reference (evidence) to your heresy, please study the following quote ...

Look not so deeply into words and letters; for this Mystery hath been

hidden by the Alchemists. Compose the sevenfold into a fourfold regimen; and

when thou hast understood thou mayest make symbols; but by playing child's

games with symbols thou shalt never understand. Thou hast the signs; thou

hast the words; but there are many things that are not in my power, who am but

the warden of the 28th Aethyr.

Your Certificate, previously mentioned in front of all these people, will now come with a small gold star for irreverance come true by angelic advice (A.'.A.'.).

Um, your dues have not arrived as yet. Please remember that, due to the present impending End of the World, the term "all dues and fees must be paid in advance," must be taken to imply and demand ten years of said extortion in advance. Yes, I know, but this is all based on The OHO-centric Constitution of 1917.

 


ignant666
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Posted by: @shiva

we all carried squirt guns filled with DMSO and LSD.

On October 21, 1967, the Youth International Party (aka Yippies) held a huge anti-war demonstration (about 100,000 people) outside the Pentagon: the "Exorcism of the Pentagon", because "everybody knows that a five-sided figure is evil."

They sought a permit to levitate the Pentagon 300 feet in the air, which would make it turn orange and vibrate, which would in turn end the Viet Nam War. The Federal government would only issue them a permit to levitate it to ten feet, which may explain why the war lasted six more years.

They made a big deal in the media about their plans to use a sprayable psychedelic called "LACE" to deal with any cop assaults at the demo:

The protesters were armed with flowers, guitars, and lysergic acid crypto ethylene (LACE), intended to counter the effects of mace. They called it a purple aphrodisiac that “makes you want to take off your clothes, kiss people, and make love.” In reality, it was Shapiro’s Disappear-o, a disappearing ink from Taiwan. [ https://timeline.com/pentagon-exorcism-ae0aad1b55c5 ]

The mythical "LACE" was supposedly exactly what your sensei said they used in the UCLA lab, LSD mixed with DMSO, dispensed with squirt guns.


Aleisterion
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As I gaze out from our little boat of a thread, I see we are far, far adrift, so I'll steer for just a moment, just to correct course a bit.

What the solution of these two verses is marked by is its simplicity. What bothers me about all other "solutions" is that they are difficult to wade through, not even remotely simple - and the method by which they derive their madness is contrived or artificially constructed. 

My solution is simple. One number: 777. The method by which we arrive at the solution is also not contrived at all, but simply happens to be the natural order and value of the letters, A-1 through Z=26. 

What is most interesting is that it took me until the mid-2000s - after nearly 30 years of examining the problem - to finally get the answer. It took me that long - dense as I am - to think to add up the letters and numbers of both verses, 75 and 76, and not just those of verse 76.

And, actually, a clue is planted in the other verse (L 1:56) that foreshadows this very situation. "All words are sacred and all prophets true; save only that they understand a little; solve the first half of the equation, leave the second unattacked."

It's true: I did as everyone else does, I tackled the second verse, the enigmatic line of letters and numbers, leaving the other line unattacked. It left me baffled for so many years: my intuition told me that I had the key, but clearly I wasn't applying it correctly. 

I forgot what made me finally add verse 75 to verse 76. But as soon as I did, it was as if light shone down and a choir of angels sang. 777: the one to follow after 666.

Okay, well, I am more than happy with it. It's simple; it's not contrived; and it's perfect. And it even adds an "Aha!" twist to L 1:56, as aforesaid.

Wonderful! But as I said previously, no solution will ever be accepted by everyone unquestioningly. Not ever gonna happen. What is going to happen, is that a body of important work will be the proof of this pudding. This solution is merely the icing on the cake of wonderful insights, ideas, and a whole huge corpus of fresh new materials that don't merely rehash the ideas of old prophets, but that actually recapture the same exciting current of magick that inspired all prophets and oracles across all time.

I'm excited, and those working with us here in Detroit are all just as excited, about this discovery, but that's because we see the rest of it unfolding. "Time unveileth truth". For now, I am ecstatic, inspired, and passionate about this; but the real good it does is to serve as motivation.

The riddle of 2:75-6 is a road that leads somewhere, it isn't an end in itself. It leads the one that solves it to unlock a vault of far greater treasure. It leads to clarity.

 

 

 


Shiva
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Posted by: @ignant666

"everybody knows that a five-sided figure is evil."

Yes, of course. Most govs, everywhere, have one or more pentagrams on their flags. At this point in history, which is now changing daily, the warriors and the pols must have consulted the magicians, because today I don't think many folks know about Dominion, Geburah, Pentagrams, or how they shout, "War!

Posted by: @ignant666

They sought a permit to levitate the Pentagon 300 feet in the air, which would make it turn orange and vibrate, which would in turn end the Viet Nam War. The Federal government would only issue them a permit to levitate it to ten feet, which may explain why the war lasted six more years.

And we think we are living in strange times now. The truth of the matter lies in the fact that the struggle 'twixt the gov (king?) and the folks.  Every generation gets to haveits war (or two) and every generation rises up (in cyclic display) against the policies of the gov. Why? Because the gov fiddles with its pentagrams while over-reaching upon its people and its neighbors.

Posted by: @ignant666

The mythical "LACE" was supposedly exactly what your sensei said they used in the UCLA lab, LSD mixed with DMSO, dispensed with squirt guns.

I didn't know anything about DMSO in '67 or so, thus I missed out on this delivery method that resembles sneak attacks.

Posted by: @aleisterion

[the other solutions] are difficult to wade through, not even remotely simple - and the method by which they derive their madness is contrived or artificially constructed. 

Yes, this is what we keep telling the Qabalists as they present the final solution.

 

 


wellreadwellbred
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Topic starter  
Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @herupakraath

What should be the point of the solution, what would convince you?

It is self-evident therefore (obviously) one who saw it would be self-convinced. However, there's this thing about nobody knows nuthin' 'til the evidence is evident. That is, one cannot construct personal criteria (in advance) for an unknown revelation ... and afterwards it will be too late, because the feline will be out of the purse.

AC's The New Comment to "II.75 Aye! listen to the numbers & the words:", contains the following statement:

"Be ye well assured all that the solution, when it is found, will be unquestionable. It will be marked by the most sublime simplicity, and carry immediate conviction."

But AC does in the same comment reject his just quoted statement about "sublime simplicity", by following it with the following statement:"

"( The above pragraph was written previous to the communication of Charles Stansfeld Jones with regard to the 'numbers and the words' which constitute the Key to the cipher of this Book. See the Appendix to these comment[-s]. I prefer to leave my remark as it originally stood, in order to mark my attitude at the time of writing. ) "

My point is that AC's statement about that the solution to the II.76 cipher "... will be marked by the most sublime simplicity, and carry immediate conviction.", is an opinion AC had only for a while, before rejecting it. 


herupakraath
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Posted by: @aleisterion

I forgot what made me finally add verse 75 to verse 76. But as soon as I did, it was as if light shone down and a choir of angels sang. 777: the one to follow after 666.

Well I have to give it to you, there can be no simpler solution than one that makes no mention of the puzzle whatsoever.


Shiva
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

AC's The New Comment to "II.75 Aye! listen to the numbers & the words:", contains the following statement:

WellRead, where have you been? I mean, you don't have to account for your ordeals, it's just that soo many posters (The Poster Children of God) have gone missing since that medical emergency was declared. It is a fine thing to see you are kicking.

Now. About this quoting of others, even if it is AC: You are hereby excused, pardoned, and excommunicated from any excessive quotation penalties, mere by by showing up.

Until it gets, um, burdensome again.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

My point is that AC's statement about that the solution to the II.76 cipher "... will be marked by the most sublime simplicity, and carry immediate conviction.", is an opinion AC had only for a while, before rejecting it. 

Right. And those were two (adjacent) good quotes. [insert link here to AC's Discrepancies thread].

The first quote ("sublime simplicity") is perhaps like saying "at the end of the path there is nothing." People hear it, pretend to get it, then go away without attaining enlightenment.

If we want a simple solution, we can start with Aleisteron's 777 solution. I haven't seen the math, nor have I followed the instructions (add 'em up), so I cannot confirm that the data dump = 777, but it's a good start. It's simple.

The second quote is based on AC applying 31 to RPSTOVAL, and it is so confusing that I feel faint and fall into disbelief. AC's "application" of "Achad's solution" was neither self-convincing nor complete.

Posted by: @herupakraath

there can be no simpler solution than one that makes no mention of the puzzle whatsoever.

Oh, goodness, you are right. We still don't know who RP STOVAL is (unless it's Achad).

 


Aleisterion
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Posted by: @shiva

If we want a simple solution, we can start with Aleisteron's 777 solution. I haven't seen the math, nor have I followed the instructions (add 'em up), so I cannot confirm that the data dump = 777, but it's a good start. It's simple.

4 6 3 8 ABK = 35

2 4 ALGMOR = 6 + 66 = 72

3 YX = 52

24 + 89 + 123 = 236

The line of "the numbers & the words" (4 6 3 8 A B K 2 4 A L G M O R 3 Y X 24 89 R P S T O V A L) = 395.

Add the previous line ("Aye! listen to the numbers & the words"):

aye listen = 110

to the numbers = 160

& the words = 112

395 + 110 + 160 + 112

= 777


AhihChiva567
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@aleisterion

Simple enough, I'm impressed.

777 - is significant towards what vain of thought with QBL concepts?

You're excited. I'm excited. Good work!


herupakraath
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Posted by: @shiva

If we want a simple solution, we can start with Aleisteron's 777 solution. I haven't seen the math, nor have I followed the instructions (add 'em up), so I cannot confirm that the data dump = 777, but it's a good start. It's simple.

If the goal is to go simple, how about considering the simple statement that Crowley would never understand the meaning of the puzzle, thus disqualifying his opinions, and the hoped for simplicity in a puzzle that contains 28 elements that form eight groups of both letters and numbers.

Typically when a non-solver cannot get what they want out the puzzle, they either ignore some aspects of it, thus reducing some its elements, or figure out a way to augment it, which Aleisterion has done by adding the gematria value of verse 75 to that of the puzzle. It is obvious to me at least that Aleisterion is aware of the weaknesses in his solution, which includes not explaining the purposes of the groups of puzzle letters and numbers. He tries to compensate by enumerating the groups separately when he could have simply written:

Aye! listen to the numbers & the words: = 382
4638 ABK 24 ALGMOR 3 YX 24 89 RPSTOVAL = 395

382 + 395 = 777

Beyond those criticisms, why should I believe the value 777 is a solution to the puzzle when the vague meaning that it appears to relay is Aleisterion is the one that is to follow Crowley. Seems like its all about the puzzle solver, and not about an actual solution.


hadgigegenraum
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Posts: 411
 

@aleisterion 

Beautiful and congratulations!

And of course the verses go together, the verse numbers are restrictions of sorts, contrived afterthoughts...

So thank God this has been taken care of......Now we can get back to talking about the universal solvent and the war-engine....bring out the LSD squirt guns, get down to the Pentagon and levitate that monster!


Shiva
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Posted by: @ahihchiva567

vain of thought

Vein, please. We have enough vanity on hand.

Posted by: @herupakraath

If the goal is to go simple, how about considering the simple statement that Crowley would never understand the meaning of the puzzle

This is a good, simple starting point. If true, then anything the prophet says about it is to be considered in relation to a pinch of sodium chloride.

Posted by: @herupakraath

... why should I believe the value ... [?]

You shouldn't. We are instructed to Not Believe, but to evaluate-certify-prove anything to ourselves.


herupakraath
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Posted by: @shiva

You shouldn't. We are instructed to Not Believe, but to evaluate-certify-prove anything to ourselves.

So you subscribe to the tired but familiar, 'Do what thou wilt, just do it by yourself' school of mystery. It's just another way of saying, "we're not interested in any new ideas or insights, so please keep them to yourself." 

 

 


Aleisterion
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Posted by: @ahihchiva567

777 - is significant towards what vain of thought with QBL concepts?

It's the numeration of Shaitan Aiwass (359+418). I'm more than happy with it as the solution of the two verses. That the words and numbers of these particular verses would add to that particular value, by the natural order & value of the Alphabet (and not some contrived system of gematria) is nothing short of miraculous. Crowley was a bit silly thinking that any solution, however perfect, would be "unquestionable" - there will always be disagreements.

It's also the value of Aleisterion (transliterated into Hebrew), a name given to me during a paranormal event in 1997 (the 93rd year of the Aeon).

Thanks for your kind words. 93


ignant666
(@ignant666)
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Posts: 3841
 
Posted by: @herupakraath

the tired but familiar, 'Do what thou wilt, just do it by yourself' school of mystery. It's just another way of saying, "we're not interested in any new ideas or insights, so please keep them to yourself." 

Oh, please. Skepticism towards contrived "revelations" is hardly the same thing as refusing "any new ideas or insights."

Cypher-solvers never have anything useful to offer towards doing the Great Work. Instead, they propose new Mysterious Hints, new Secret Keys: in short, new Abrogate Bush-Wa.

"Solving the cypher", and finding therein one's name, address, area code, or childhood postal code should, at minimum, lead to some serious self-reflection as to one's sanity.


Shiva
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Posts: 6472
 
Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @shiva

You shouldn't. We are instructed to Not Believe, but to evaluate-certify-prove anything to ourselves.

So you subscribe to the tired but familiar, 'Do what thou wilt, just do it by yourself' school of mystery.

My subscription was, and is, to the concept of belief, wherein we are stupid to believe anything without testing it by one;s self.

I thought my squawk was simple and understandable, but I must have erred in the structure of the communication, so that you might misunderstand and think that I advocated the way of the Hermit.

Posted by: @ignant666

Oh, please. Skepticism towards contrived "revelations" is hardly the same thing as refusing "any new ideas or insights."

Oh, thanks. I see you are able to differentiate between the two concepts.

 


wellreadwellbred
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Topic starter  

Shiva: "WellRead, where have you been?"

Doing some close reading of the two most important scriptures of Thelema according to AC in chapter 66 of his Confessions, The Book of the Law and The Vision and the Voice.

 

herupakraath: "... why should I believe the value 777 is a solution to the puzzle when the vague meaning that it appears to relay is Aleisterion is the one that is to follow Crowley. Seems like its all about the puzzle solver, and not about an actual solution."

That he "is the one that is to follow Crowley.", is not what Aleisterion wrote, as what Aleisterion wrote is this: "... 777: the one to follow after 666."

777 being the one to follow after 666, does fit the statement "There cometh one to follow thee: he shall expound it.", contained within the ii76-cipher, as the book containing this cipher ends with the closing statement "The Book of the Law is Written and Concealed. Aum. Ha."

( " “What does "Aum. Ha.” mean? [Aum. Ha.] consists of the two Sanskrit words, aum ha, the first and last letters of the (devanagari) Sanskrit alphabet–thus equivalent to the Greek “Alpha and Omega,” the beginning and end and, implicitly, the eternity that passes between. [...] (by James Eshelman) " ( - - - Source: https://realmovkhaos.tumblr.com/tagged/Aum.%20Ha.%20Lodge%20Chigago ) )

It is apparent that a profound familiarity with the Christian Bible pertains both to who Aleister Crowley was as a person, and to the way in which The Book of the Law derived through him, is written (and concealed). 

A common thread or common denominator in the Christian Bible is that "... there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be made known and brought to light." ( Sources: Matthew 10:26, Mark 4:22, Luke 8:17-19, and Luke 12:2-4 .)

Seven is God's favorite number in the Christian Bible. ( Source: http://ph.news.yahoo.com/seven-gods-favorite-number-170039364.html  

The number 777 can be regarded as a symbol for God according to Christian speculations: "According to the American publication, the Orthodox Study Bible, 777 represents the threefold perfection of the Trinity.[...] The number 777, as triple 7, can be contrasted against triple 6, for the Number of the Beast as 666 (rather than variant 616)."

(Source: “777 (number) From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia” - - - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/777_(number)#Christianity ). 

Within traditional Christianity it is the son of God Jesus Christ who will bring about the eventual disclosure and unconcealment repeatedly mentioned in the Christian Bible. 

Something akin to this is within AC's Thelema mentioned in his book The Vision and the Voice, where The work of a Master of the Temple is described as bringing about eventual disclosure and unconcealment (of the Absolute) for the individual that succeeds in it. 

Thelemapedia’s (The Free Encyclopedia of Thelema A Project of Scarlet Women Publishing Scarlet Women Lodge. O.T.O.) section about Kether, contains the following quote from Aleister Crowley, describing Kether as “The First "Emanation" of the Absolute.”:

“Kether: The First "Emanation" of the Absolute. Kether is in Malkuth and Malkuth is in Kether, but after another manner, Malkuth reflects Kether, for that which is above is like that which is below, and that which is below is like that which is above. (Little Essays Towards Truth)”

( Source: Kether From Thelemapedia - - - www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/Kether )

In his autobiography Confessions AC states "I loved mankind, I wanted everybody to be an enthusiastic aspirant to the absolute."

In and endnote to The Cry of the 21st Aethyr, in his book The Vision and the Voice, AC states that "Kether [ = the Absolute ] exists only as the Child of any Marriage of one particular Hadit with one particular aspect of Nuit. There are thus as many Kethers [versions of the Absolute] as there are positive possibilities." 

A major difference between traditional Christianity and AC's Thelema, is adherents of traditional Christianity proclaiming that there is only one supreme Absolute that all individuals must aspire to, and AC with his Thelema proclaiming that there are as many supreme Absolutes to aspire to, as there are individuals. 


Shiva
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

That he "is the one that is to follow Crowley.", is not what Aleisterion wrote ...

There is misunderstanding in the wind (where the answer is not blowin') wherein it is hard to "get" what is being writ.

Also, it is a complex cast of characters in the play. We see there is somebody who will discover the key to it All - this would be Frater Achad (who actually did his duty).

Then there is the one who will follow him - this would either be Mr Gunther, Mr Motta, Mr McM, Mr Grant, or some other person who has not yet arrived (future tense) and none of these mentioned will do as they have not become terrible and caused all men, women, and stars to worship the writing of the First Beast (Dan continues to have a chance - as he is still alive).

Then there is The Rich Man from the West. He seems to be a Military-Industrial Complex banker or lobbyist. He provides funds (gold) to make armaments. Many people think Germar was the West Man as he provided AC with funds - I can sort of accept that, because we had our rich man in the olden days. But, all things considered, I think the Rich Man is a future manwho arms the Second Beast, so that he (#2) can cause all folks to worship the writing of the First Beast.

I know I am mixing two metaphors scriptures, but AC did it all the time, so it should be okay if I do it just once.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Sources: Matthew 10:26, Mark 4:22, Luke 8:17-19

I am always amazed by the same quotes, usually word-for-word the same, that are sprinkled through the words of the apostles. Surely, these verbatim sayings are NOT the words of the apostles, but are translations of papers that were in their possession, or possibly words they uttered from memory, and somebody else wrote them down.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

A major difference between traditional Christianity and AC's Thelema, is adherents of traditional Christianity proclaiming that there is only one supreme Absolute that all individuals must aspire to, and AC with his Thelema proclaiming that there are as many supreme Absolutes to aspire to, as there are individuals. 

Well, Blavatsky and Bailey  got into that, calling it (kether) The Monad, and (yes) each of us has our own Monad. Barbara Brennan called it the Core Star - you can find it in anybody's energy field by removing, or seeing through, the aura. With the aura (that can track out to Binah) reduced to a Line (Chokmah), we see almost to the top.

When the Line is reduced to a point, we see the Core Star - every man and woman is one - at the core of their being. All stars look alike, save that they have a slightly different hue (and thus a different frequency, and thus a different potential destiny).

Every Man and every Woman is not the same Star. 

 


AhihChiva567
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The method in which Aleisterion arrives at 777 is remarkable...simply adding from the first letter of verse II.75 to the last letter of II.76 (which does start with an A and end with an L by the way) and thus It is what it is and development flows naturally. 

Aleisterion uses 777 in a practical manner towards his personal QBL, and, if I might say (or so I believe) is using his tools quite well. I mean, is there anything more to it than this, kids? This here is a genuine Thelemite Doing the Work. That's good enough for me. I would hope it's good enough for all of you.


katrice
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@ahihchiva567 

 

The key test, for anything like this, lies in what further work it inspires, for one's self  and potentially for others. Gaining the gnosis is just a stage in the process. It has little use unless applied. 


the_real_simon_iff
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I agree that the 777 "key" is remarkably simple. All the better that it has brought personal revelations to Aleisterion. What would you (forum members) make with 2:55; "Thou shalt obtain the order & value of the English Alphabet, thou shalt find new symbols to attribute them unto"? Any revelance to the cypher? And if so, is the "obtaining" part covered with this solution?

Also, while it is kinda cool that the cypher now starts with an A and ends with an L, I am not convinced that both "sentences" belong together. The following sentence "What meaneth this?" doesn't make much sense for both sentences, does it? (while it could make sense for the complete Liber)

But it is fun playing around with both sentences. Leo Gillis' qabalah just adds up to 765 for that (and only if you spell out the plus sign - it is NOT an ampersand - else it is only 720).

Good work nonetheless.

And it is not as boring as adding the cypher up to 666 (someone did that once), but it is still - with all due respect - incredibly boring, just speaking from a riddle solver's perspective here. The cypher just adds up to one of AC's works? And not even one he penned himself?

Love=Law

Lutz


Shiva
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Posts: 6472
 
Posted by: @ahihchiva567

I mean, is there anything more to it than this, kids?

Of course there is. As long as The Official End of the World has not arrived, there will be a line of Qabalists lined up to solve the "deeper" mysteries.

Posted by: @ahihchiva567

I would hope it's good enough for all of you.

This is LAShTAL, where everything gets picked apart. When there is nothing left to disassemble (and make fun of), then we will have arrived at the Hub of it All (never mind the periphery, for now, which is filled with ambiguity and associated with pi) - which is the only thing that will ever qualify as :good enough" for all.

Posted by: @katrice

Gaining the gnosis is just a stage in the process. It has little use unless applied. 

I believe Ignant was also calling for a "practical application." It always comes down to this, doesn't it? 


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